Does this game unfairly reward easy combos and skill sets?

BigOlePappyBigOlePappy Joined: Posts: 356
I admit to some salt in this thread.

I remember in mvc1 and mvc2 that you pretty much got the damage you paid for execution wise. You had to do all kinds of fly unfly stuff and really break the game mexhanics to do decent damage.

I see characters in this game like wesker hulk cap nem wolverine and others that can almost abc 123 to ToD a character while characters with a higher execution curve still have to work hard to put out damage.

I realize there has always been some element of mashing in marvel but in this game it seems like some moves and launches are ridiculously safe almost making footsies and air play of the old ones non existent and almost encouraging herp derp game play.

Also TACs in my opinion should at least some requirement of execution to pull off rather than be a novice window for damage.

All in all I don't feel like like this game adequately rewards executions and skill where it almost encourages herp derp gameplay when compared to any of the old versus games or even it's contemporaries in the fighting game genre.
MVC1: Strider/Gambit
MVC3: C.Viper/Mag/Morrigan
UMVC3: C.Viper/Doom/Strider
XvsSF: Gambit/Charlie
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,235 mod
    The combos are easier to do than they should be, but the neutral is just as hard to understand at a high level where that's still the most important thing. Unlike in Vanilla, the best characters the game has to offer have combos that require enough work and are very much droppable. The game is so hectic in general that people just drop the easiest of combos sometimes. You can even see recent footage of Justin Wong dropping like 3 and 4 combos in a row against Joker at Canada Cup and Wolverine has more or less undroppable combos.

    If you don't understand how to move and apply your spacing in this game it really doesn't matter how easy or hard your team's combos are. You'll get hit before they hit you any way.



    Characters like Wolverine, Wesker, Mag, Nova and Felicia show that they air throw game is a bit more durpy than it should be. Characters like them are especially scary at the start of the round because they can go about pressing their great normals and if they get too close now you gotta worry about a throw that will probably kill you. Which means learning how to space yourself against those characters and those situations becomes especially important.






    It really wasn't that much different in the older Marvel games minus XF. If Juggernaut touched you in MVC2 you were dead and his combos weren't that hard either. In MVC1 Red Venom could just touch you and do an easy ass infinite and you were dead etc. Marvel has always been about losing a bunch of resources simply for getting hit once. Just the type of game it is.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • eivellordsm2eivellordsm2 Macho Barbarian dongzilla Joined: Posts: 1,334
    well I think heavy hitters struggle to get in to do the massive damage (like hulk for example) yea they might have armour but just dont trade with it also zero rewards good execution a lot more than other character while they can't TOD of as many moves...
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I admit to some salt in this thread.

    I remember in mvc1 and mvc2 that you pretty much got the damage you paid for execution wise. You had to do all kinds of fly unfly stuff and really break the game mexhanics to do decent damage.

    shout outs to gold war machine and missiles
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

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  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    Wolverine in every VS game pre-MVC2 invalidates this thread
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • The DukeThe Duke Joined: Posts: 14,564
    Yes; I recommend writing a letter to your state representative on this issue.
  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    Damage scaling is fucked
    THIS WEBSITE SUCKS GIANT HORSE @#$@#$@!@$
    Youtube(random doom TAC help, doom combos, ammy stuff, shuma combos and tech): http://www.youtube.com/user/Clickclakmoo?feature=mhee Danke on shuma gorath: "He who sleeps but shouldn't have costed me 5 dollars."
  • chirpchirp Joined: Posts: 3,170
    what this game rewards is good decision making, such as choosing not to play terrible characters like dante
  • eivellordsm2eivellordsm2 Macho Barbarian dongzilla Joined: Posts: 1,334
    what this game rewards is good decision making, such as choosing not to play terrible characters like shuma, raccoon or any marvel besides x men characers or doom
    fixed
  • Optimus CackOptimus Cack yes man kablam Joined: Posts: 269
    My problem with Marvel isn't that it rewards easy combos. It rewards execution that shrinks guess work/decisions. To be fair, this is in all fighting games in some way, shape, or form (All-'Round-Escape in VF, Korean dashing, and pretty much everything C. Viper does). In fact it's the smartest way to play a given game, and no one can really blame you for playing that way.

    The problem lies in how much the execution mitigates risk in Marvel. Things like Zero being able to buster cancel practically everything makes him ridiculously safe for how good his rushdown is and how much damage he can do. It's not necessarily super hard to charge busters, but it greatly rewards people who train their hands to do it. Same thing with Vergil's Roundtrip. Look at all the weird box jumping and airdash jankery some strategies involve. Hell, even wavedashing changes the risk/reward ratio and not always in a good way. None of them are nigh-impossible to do, but they do take practice to apply well.

    A friend of mine said Marvel is full of finger busywork, and I largely agree.
  • evilweevleevilweevle Xbox GT : MrFossy Joined: Posts: 4,275
    what this game rewards is playing the same characters everyone else plays


    fixed it for you.
    3DS friend code : 0232 8273 2994
  • BigOlePappyBigOlePappy Joined: Posts: 356
    Why TAC combos?
    Why ToDs off air throws?
    Why umm....Vergil?

    But over all there is so much less of an execution barrier in the TvC engine than the original Versus.
    People who make the Juggernaut argument forget about the Magnetos, Striders, WMC, IMs, Storms, Sents from the old ones.

    Cap's herp derp in MVC1 did like 50 percent.

    It makes the game less rewarding. I feel like I'm playing rochambeu.

    I'm not alone. This was a common complaint when the game first came out.
    MVC1: Strider/Gambit
    MVC3: C.Viper/Mag/Morrigan
    UMVC3: C.Viper/Doom/Strider
    XvsSF: Gambit/Charlie
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  • DodekaDodeka Centurion Joined: Posts: 989
    Vergil rewards you for having execution as well. The difference is just that, like other characters, you still get big damage for having not so optimal combo's to cater to all crowds. Any optimized Vergil combo does almost twice as much damage then what people usually see. But once again, that's the case with any character. Hell, X-factor alone breaks that fact for anyone. It's the nature of the game really. So really, it's just your view point of it. This may be unfair one way, but there is almost ten times the amount of stupid in this game that is a lot more unfair then easy combo's.

    And the TvC engine wasn't anything like the tweaked engine in MvC3. Sure it says a billion damage on the screen, but it didn't mean shit if the character was still alive. You actually had to do several of those combo's to kill, or have specific requirements for high damage combo's.
    Worldmind Inc.
  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,331
    Execution and knowing how to get that hit are more important I say. Consistency.
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Currently grinding out MVCI. Gamora/???
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  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,331
    Execution and knowing how to get that hit are more important I say. Consistency.
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Currently grinding out MVCI. Gamora/???
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
  • SkullboySkullboy On Days Like This... Joined: Posts: 12,367
    In a game where TODing your opponent is key, I would have to say yes.

    I find it kind of appalling when a fighter is just reduced to ABC combos into super, maybe throwing in X-Factor here and there as a combo extender or to just repeat a super. For the most part, it makes it seem like it's pointless to even learn any advanced combos when your opponent can do the same amount of damage with less than half the effort.

    Also seems like this game caters to zoners/kepping it lame-ers heavily. (i.e Mag, Sentinel, Storm, Morrigan, Doom, ect.)

    I just up and quit this game recently because I was just sick and tired of all the annoying and trite "strategies" people will use to win in this game, lol.

    Fuck Divekick
    Fuck Hidden Missles
    Fuck double Morrigan
    Fuck Online Captain America

    Seriously, fuck this game. :tup:
    "Every moment gives us a chance to become more than what we are."

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  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    This game is reduced to just ABC combos into super? This is news to me.
    THIS WEBSITE SUCKS GIANT HORSE @#$@#$@!@$
    Youtube(random doom TAC help, doom combos, ammy stuff, shuma combos and tech): http://www.youtube.com/user/Clickclakmoo?feature=mhee Danke on shuma gorath: "He who sleeps but shouldn't have costed me 5 dollars."
  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,331
    Yeah, I got better combos than that ABC bullshit. I play Spencer and I got ABC grapple to super combos. Get at my 80k bro~

    Some characters are just more spoiled than others. That's why we love this game man. ITS MAHVEL BAYBEE!
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Currently grinding out MVCI. Gamora/???
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
  • P. GorathP. Gorath @ButtonMashLA Joined: Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    throws are the biggest problem/strike against this game by far. the upper tier ones have unnatural, comically-large ranges, they beat out a plethora of attacks (?!) destroying the rock/paper/scissors foundation of fighting games, they can still lead to ToD, and characters whose go-to air normal is H are artificially inflated up the tier chart due to option select, while characters who rely on air M or S get fucked.
  • TheTR3NDSETTATheTR3NDSETTA Joined: Posts: 238
    Yes it reward easy combos.... Unfairly, no.

    Like someone already mentioned, spacing is the KEY to this game.... If you're playing Vergil/mag/zero and I'm able to either hit you and kill your character or lame you out with zoning then you can't really complain and call it unfair, especially with a team like mine

    Regarding skill sets... Most if not all the chars that require execution in this game have extremely easy ways to open you up and can put you into long ass combos that won't even give you a chance to play the game.... But people want to complain about characters like hulk/nem/sent/wesker/captain America? Lolololol gtfoh

    I think this game its very balanced except for Vergil...seriously, fuck Vergil, in his asshole, with no lube
    Nemesis/Sentinel/Dante
    It was a pleasure destroying your top tier chars.
  • SkullboySkullboy On Days Like This... Joined: Posts: 12,367
    Some characters are just more spoiled than others. That's why we love this game man. ITS MAHVEL BAYBEE!
    NO. >:(
    "Every moment gives us a chance to become more than what we are."

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  • TheTR3NDSETTATheTR3NDSETTA Joined: Posts: 238
    throws are the biggest problem/strike against this game by far. the upper tier ones have unnatural, comically-large ranges, they beat out a plethora of attacks (?!) destroying the rock/paper/scissors foundation of fighting games, they can still lead to ToD, and characters whose go-to air normal is H are artificially inflated up the tier chart due to option select, while characters who rely on air M or S get fucked.

    Exactly what I mean by higher execution chars having easy ways to open you up... I'm talkin to you viper..magneto...firebrand
    Nemesis/Sentinel/Dante
    It was a pleasure destroying your top tier chars.
  • CryohCryoh Rock Shock Thunderous Beat Joined: Posts: 9,639
    throws are the biggest problem/strike against this game by far. the upper tier ones have unnatural, comically-large ranges, they beat out a plethora of attacks (?!) destroying the rock/paper/scissors foundation of fighting games, they can still lead to ToD, and characters whose go-to air normal is H are artificially inflated up the tier chart due to option select, while characters who rely on air M or S get fucked.
    Fucking AGREED. It makes no sense that throws are quicker than Ls in this game.
  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,331
    NO. >:(
    It's okay buddy.

    *see's custom title*

    Here man, I'll give you a hug. Don't be mad.

    Come+at+me+bro+duck.jpg

    Like PGorath said, characters with a go to j.H are what really separates characters for me. Air control.
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Currently grinding out MVCI. Gamora/???
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    Grabs are definitely fine. Whenever I get thrown by a taskmaster, I rejoice knowing that the grab was 100% intentional.
    THIS WEBSITE SUCKS GIANT HORSE @#$@#$@!@$
    Youtube(random doom TAC help, doom combos, ammy stuff, shuma combos and tech): http://www.youtube.com/user/Clickclakmoo?feature=mhee Danke on shuma gorath: "He who sleeps but shouldn't have costed me 5 dollars."
  • SkullboySkullboy On Days Like This... Joined: Posts: 12,367
    snip
    Dawww

    On another note, I feel like a lot of the hurtboxes are just god awful in this game. I mean Nemesis doesn't even have one for half of his body when he's in a jump state. :rofl:
    "Every moment gives us a chance to become more than what we are."

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  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,331
    Grabs are definitely fine. Whenever I get thrown by a taskmaster, I rejoice knowing that the grab was 100% intentional.
    I use Taskmaster's forward throw so they'll know I wasn't mashing shield skills but mighty swing. Kappa.png

    Haha, on the real though, I as a player can't force myself to mash out while I'm playing such as mashing throws and whatever. I just can't do it even if I try. Just doesn't sit well with me. I know you gotta play like a scumbag at times, but meh, it just doesn't always work out for me.
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Currently grinding out MVCI. Gamora/???
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    Honestly, I think grabs are good as it. It's the only option often when you are getting hit by ridiculous bullshit.
    THIS WEBSITE SUCKS GIANT HORSE @#$@#$@!@$
    Youtube(random doom TAC help, doom combos, ammy stuff, shuma combos and tech): http://www.youtube.com/user/Clickclakmoo?feature=mhee Danke on shuma gorath: "He who sleeps but shouldn't have costed me 5 dollars."
  • TheTR3NDSETTATheTR3NDSETTA Joined: Posts: 238
    Just put it like this.... If nemesis lands a hit on you and nearly kills you with a BnB and magneto does the same but can't kill you with a higher execution combo... Who's most likely to open who up again???

    You can't really complain about big slow ass fuckin characters doing massive damage with easy execution or characters like Arthur laming you the fuck out when the higher tier chars have all the tools in the game to open up your ass!! (no homo)
    Nemesis/Sentinel/Dante
    It was a pleasure destroying your top tier chars.
  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,331
    Grabs are definitely the hidden determining factor for tiers and the like for me. This also heavily includes a characters j.H's usefulness and throw properties. Some characters are just too spoiled with their jumping H's honestly.
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Currently grinding out MVCI. Gamora/???
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,664
    I see characters in this game like wesker hulk cap nem wolverine and others that can almost abc 123 to ToD a character while characters with a higher execution curve still have to work hard to put out damage.
    But....

    Magneto/Doom/Vergil/Viper/Morrigan/etc are all doing things more advanced then ABCs.

    The issue with ABC is due to the damage scaling, and how you don't need to do high risk combos when you got Level 3s/THCs/TAC/X-factor to get the damage that you want.

    ABC don't really dominate the game at all, and just because it's high execution doesn't make it any less derpy.

    But over all there is so much less of an execution barrier in the TvC engine than the original Versus.
    Really?

    TVC's ABC or Basic combos don't do much damage, and they demand more advance combos to get the most meter possible.

    Most characters in TVC ended have super advanced loops if you wanted optimize shit.
  • SkullboySkullboy On Days Like This... Joined: Posts: 12,367
    Honestly, I think grabs are good as it. It's the only option often when you are getting hit by ridiculous bullshit.
    What about push block?
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  • BigOlePappyBigOlePappy Joined: Posts: 356
    Just put it like this.... If nemesis lands a hit on you and nearly kills you with a BnB and magneto does the same but can't kill you with a higher execution combo... Who's most likely to open who up again???

    You can't really complain about big slow ass fuckin characters doing massive damage with easy execution or characters like Arthur laming you the fuck out when the higher tier chars have all the tools in the game to open up your ass!! (no homo)

    Yeah but a lot of the problem chracters arent slow and even have teleports. With the right assists (drones missles cold star) it doesn't even matter really.

    Especially online. The risk and execution level to call drones and teleport mix up with Wesker or Vergil is very low but its very hard to block and usually leads to ToD.

    I should have prefaced this thread with that I mostly have been playing online these last 3-4 months. To combo consistently with Viper and Strider is very hard, let alone using their tools.

    I get really get the appeal of herp derping either. It never feels satisfying when I win with my Nemesis Wesker Hawkeye team. I feel like everytime I win I actually get a bit worse at fighting games as a whole. I feel kinda isolated in this though as there are thousands more players ready to herp derp drones missles wesker vergil then tea bag in lag and then act like they have done something worthwile or requiring skill.

    Offline where EX Siesmo is instant people don't like to drones mix up me.
    MVC1: Strider/Gambit
    MVC3: C.Viper/Mag/Morrigan
    UMVC3: C.Viper/Doom/Strider
    XvsSF: Gambit/Charlie
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  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,331
    What about push block?
    Push blocking means nothing to certain characters. Spencer can still zip in, Nova can still dash in after you push block him, same with Magneto. If a player knows his guard break setups and just pushblock grab setups, you're gonna be royally screwed.
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Currently grinding out MVCI. Gamora/???
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
  • DodekaDodeka Centurion Joined: Posts: 989
    Well there is your first problem. Your playing in an online situation where the community is not necessarily the same community offline. Anyone can be a scumbag with any of the characters online(and offline as well, but that's completely different). Your looking at a majority of those players who are barely even competent really, and just use what works/what they like/whatever cause it's online.

    Also, dropping "herp derping" as an excuse for online is not really cutting it. The online alone is "herp derp" in it's own right, but you still might find some decent players that are doing things that just work a lot more online then offline(and some that play online and offline). It's not their fault that blocking teleport mix-up's online isn't very favorable.
    Worldmind Inc.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,970 mod
    Easy execution and high damage simply puts more emphasis on the neutral game because any single mistake can lead to the loss of one of your characters. In other words, it's just like Marvel 2 but with a lower barrier of entry to the high-end, high stakes, ToD stuff.
  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    Don't play online. Somewhere, in a long distant land, captain america puts on an evil smile everytime you decide to press psn/xbox live. Don't do it!
    THIS WEBSITE SUCKS GIANT HORSE @#$@#$@!@$
    Youtube(random doom TAC help, doom combos, ammy stuff, shuma combos and tech): http://www.youtube.com/user/Clickclakmoo?feature=mhee Danke on shuma gorath: "He who sleeps but shouldn't have costed me 5 dollars."
  • AceKillahAceKillah behind the scenes Joined: Posts: 15,813
    Don't play online. Somewhere, in a long distant land, captain america puts on an evil smile everytime you decide to press psn/xbox live. Don't do it!

    The jumping L Shield Slash blockstun infinite.
    "Smash is the Walmart of fighting games. There's nothing inherently wrong with Walmart, but damned if I don't want 95% of its clientele to burn to death." -Vynce
  • SkullboySkullboy On Days Like This... Joined: Posts: 12,367
    Don't play online. Somewhere, in a long distant land, captain america puts on an evil smile everytime you decide to press psn/xbox live. Don't do it!
    In the Online realm of UMVC3, CHARGING STAR IS GOD.
    "Every moment gives us a chance to become more than what we are."

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  • SottleSottle Joined: Posts: 364
    UMVC3: Nova/Frank/Ammy, Nova/Doom/Ammy,
    XBL: Sottle
    Looking for players in South Coast UK.
  • KratosKratos Joined: Posts: 158
    what does TOD stands for?
    PSN: Bazinga311
    AE: Seth/Cammy
    UMVC3: Nova/Spencer/Dr. Doom
    Nova/Dr.Strange/Spencer
    Spencer/Dante/Frankwest
    Dante/Vergil/Dr.Doom

    Plz don't die Marvel :/

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