Does this game unfairly reward easy combos and skill sets?

BigOlePappy

I admit to some salt in this thread.

I remember in mvc1 and mvc2 that you pretty much got the damage you paid for execution wise. You had to do all kinds of fly unfly stuff and really break the game mexhanics to do decent damage.

I see characters in this game like wesker hulk cap nem wolverine and others that can almost abc 123 to ToD a character while characters with a higher execution curve still have to work hard to put out damage.

I realize there has always been some element of mashing in marvel but in this game it seems like some moves and launches are ridiculously safe almost making footsies and air play of the old ones non existent and almost encouraging herp derp game play.

Also TACs in my opinion should at least some requirement of execution to pull off rather than be a novice window for damage.

All in all I don't feel like like this game adequately rewards executions and skill where it almost encourages herp derp gameplay when compared to any of the old versus games or even it's contemporaries in the fighting game genre.

DevilJin 01

The combos are easier to do than they should be, but the neutral is just as hard to understand at a high level where that's still the most important thing. Unlike in Vanilla, the best characters the game has to offer have combos that require enough work and are very much droppable. The game is so hectic in general that people just drop the easiest of combos sometimes. You can even see recent footage of Justin Wong dropping like 3 and 4 combos in a row against Joker at Canada Cup and Wolverine has more or less undroppable combos.

If you don't understand how to move and apply your spacing in this game it really doesn't matter how easy or hard your team's combos are. You'll get hit before they hit you any way.



Characters like Wolverine, Wesker, Mag, Nova and Felicia show that they air throw game is a bit more durpy than it should be. Characters like them are especially scary at the start of the round because they can go about pressing their great normals and if they get too close now you gotta worry about a throw that will probably kill you. Which means learning how to space yourself against those characters and those situations becomes especially important.






It really wasn't that much different in the older Marvel games minus XF. If Juggernaut touched you in MVC2 you were dead and his combos weren't that hard either. In MVC1 Red Venom could just touch you and do an easy ass infinite and you were dead etc. Marvel has always been about losing a bunch of resources simply for getting hit once. Just the type of game it is.

eivellordsm2

well I think heavy hitters struggle to get in to do the massive damage (like hulk for example) yea they might have armour but just dont trade with it also zero rewards good execution a lot more than other character while they can't TOD of as many moves...

Ouroborus

BigOlePappy, post: 7667516, member: 33662 wrote:

I admit to some salt in this thread.

I remember in mvc1 and mvc2 that you pretty much got the damage you paid for execution wise. You had to do all kinds of fly unfly stuff and really break the game mexhanics to do decent damage.

shout outs to gold war machine and missiles

ThatJollyOlBastid

Wolverine in every VS game pre-MVC2 invalidates this thread

The Duke

Yes; I recommend writing a letter to your state representative on this issue.

Rokmode

Damage scaling is fucked

chirp

what this game rewards is good decision making, such as choosing not to play terrible characters like dante

eivellordsm2

chirp, post: 7667635, member: 25005 wrote:

what this game rewards is good decision making, such as choosing not to play terrible characters like shuma, raccoon or any marvel besides x men characers or doom

fixed

Optimus Cack

My problem with Marvel isn't that it rewards easy combos. It rewards execution that shrinks guess work/decisions. To be fair, this is in all fighting games in some way, shape, or form (All-'Round-Escape in VF, Korean dashing, and pretty much everything C. Viper does). In fact it's the smartest way to play a given game, and no one can really blame you for playing that way.

The problem lies in how much the execution mitigates risk in Marvel. Things like Zero being able to buster cancel practically everything makes him ridiculously safe for how good his rushdown is and how much damage he can do. It's not necessarily super hard to charge busters, but it greatly rewards people who train their hands to do it. Same thing with Vergil's Roundtrip. Look at all the weird box jumping and airdash jankery some strategies involve. Hell, even wavedashing changes the risk/reward ratio and not always in a good way. None of them are nigh-impossible to do, but they do take practice to apply well.

A friend of mine said Marvel is full of finger busywork, and I largely agree.

evilweevle

chirp, post: 7667635, member: 25005 wrote:

what this game rewards is playing the same characters everyone else plays

fixed it for you.

BigOlePappy

Why TAC combos?
Why ToDs off air throws?
Why umm....Vergil?

But over all there is so much less of an execution barrier in the TvC engine than the original Versus.
People who make the Juggernaut argument forget about the Magnetos, Striders, WMC, IMs, Storms, Sents from the old ones.

Cap's herp derp in MVC1 did like 50 percent.

It makes the game less rewarding. I feel like I'm playing rochambeu.

I'm not alone. This was a common complaint when the game first came out.

Dodeka

Vergil rewards you for having execution as well. The difference is just that, like other characters, you still get big damage for having not so optimal combo's to cater to all crowds. Any optimized Vergil combo does almost twice as much damage then what people usually see. But once again, that's the case with any character. Hell, X-factor alone breaks that fact for anyone. It's the nature of the game really. So really, it's just your view point of it. This may be unfair one way, but there is almost ten times the amount of stupid in this game that is a lot more unfair then easy combo's.

And the TvC engine wasn't anything like the tweaked engine in MvC3. Sure it says a billion damage on the screen, but it didn't mean shit if the character was still alive. You actually had to do several of those combo's to kill, or have specific requirements for high damage combo's.

Bakuhakubasugasu

Execution and knowing how to get that hit are more important I say. Consistency.

Bakuhakubasugasu

Execution and knowing how to get that hit are more important I say. Consistency.

The Martian

In a game where TODing your opponent is key, I would have to say yes.

I find it kind of appalling when a fighter is just reduced to ABC combos into super, maybe throwing in X-Factor here and there as a combo extender or to just repeat a super. For the most part, it makes it seem like it's pointless to even learn any advanced combos when your opponent can do the same amount of damage with less than half the effort.

Also seems like this game caters to zoners/kepping it lame-ers heavily. (i.e Mag, Sentinel, Storm, Morrigan, Doom, ect.)

I just up and quit this game recently because I was just sick and tired of all the annoying and trite "strategies" people will use to win in this game, lol.

Fuck Divekick
Fuck Hidden Missles
Fuck double Morrigan
Fuck Online Captain America

Seriously, fuck this game.

Rokmode

This game is reduced to just ABC combos into super? This is news to me.

Bakuhakubasugasu

Yeah, I got better combos than that ABC bullshit. I play Spencer and I got ABC grapple to super combos. Get at my 80k bro~

Some characters are just more spoiled than others. That's why we love this game man. ITS MAHVEL BAYBEE!

P. Gorath

throws are the biggest problem/strike against this game by far. the upper tier ones have unnatural, comically-large ranges, they beat out a plethora of attacks (?!) destroying the rock/paper/scissors foundation of fighting games, they can still lead to ToD, and characters whose go-to air normal is H are artificially inflated up the tier chart due to option select, while characters who rely on air M or S get fucked.

TheTR3NDSETTA

Yes it reward easy combos.... Unfairly, no.

Like someone already mentioned, spacing is the KEY to this game.... If you're playing Vergil/mag/zero and I'm able to either hit you and kill your character or lame you out with zoning then you can't really complain and call it unfair, especially with a team like mine

Regarding skill sets... Most if not all the chars that require execution in this game have extremely easy ways to open you up and can put you into long ass combos that won't even give you a chance to play the game.... But people want to complain about characters like hulk/nem/sent/wesker/captain America? Lolololol gtfoh

I think this game its very balanced except for Vergil...seriously, fuck Vergil, in his asshole, with no lube

The Martian

Bakuhakubasugasu, post: 7668568, member: 11665 wrote:

Some characters are just more spoiled than others. That's why we love this game man. ITS MAHVEL BAYBEE!

NO. >:(

TheTR3NDSETTA

P. Gorath, post: 7668571, member: 505 wrote:

throws are the biggest problem/strike against this game by far. the upper tier ones have unnatural, comically-large ranges, they beat out a plethora of attacks (?!) destroying the rock/paper/scissors foundation of fighting games, they can still lead to ToD, and characters whose go-to air normal is H are artificially inflated up the tier chart due to option select, while characters who rely on air M or S get fucked.

Exactly what I mean by higher execution chars having easy ways to open you up... I'm talkin to you viper..magneto...firebrand

Cryoh

P. Gorath, post: 7668571, member: 505 wrote:

throws are the biggest problem/strike against this game by far. the upper tier ones have unnatural, comically-large ranges, they beat out a plethora of attacks (?!) destroying the rock/paper/scissors foundation of fighting games, they can still lead to ToD, and characters whose go-to air normal is H are artificially inflated up the tier chart due to option select, while characters who rely on air M or S get fucked.

Fucking AGREED. It makes no sense that throws are quicker than Ls in this game.

Bakuhakubasugasu

The Martian, post: 7668583, member: 80076 wrote:

NO. >:(

It's okay buddy.

*see's custom title*

Here man, I'll give you a hug. Don't be mad.



Like PGorath said, characters with a go to j.H are what really separates characters for me. Air control.

Rokmode

Grabs are definitely fine. Whenever I get thrown by a taskmaster, I rejoice knowing that the grab was 100% intentional.

The Martian

Bakuhakubasugasu, post: 7668589, member: 11665 wrote:

snip

Dawww

On another note, I feel like a lot of the hurtboxes are just god awful in this game. I mean Nemesis doesn't even have one for half of his body when he's in a jump state.

Bakuhakubasugasu

Rokmode, post: 7668591, member: 48650 wrote:

Grabs are definitely fine. Whenever I get thrown by a taskmaster, I rejoice knowing that the grab was 100% intentional.

I use Taskmaster's forward throw so they'll know I wasn't mashing shield skills but mighty swing.

Haha, on the real though, I as a player can't force myself to mash out while I'm playing such as mashing throws and whatever. I just can't do it even if I try. Just doesn't sit well with me. I know you gotta play like a scumbag at times, but meh, it just doesn't always work out for me.

Rokmode

Honestly, I think grabs are good as it. It's the only option often when you are getting hit by ridiculous bullshit.

TheTR3NDSETTA

Just put it like this.... If nemesis lands a hit on you and nearly kills you with a BnB and magneto does the same but can't kill you with a higher execution combo... Who's most likely to open who up again???

You can't really complain about big slow ass fuckin characters doing massive damage with easy execution or characters like Arthur laming you the fuck out when the higher tier chars have all the tools in the game to open up your ass!! (no homo)

Bakuhakubasugasu

Grabs are definitely the hidden determining factor for tiers and the like for me. This also heavily includes a characters j.H's usefulness and throw properties. Some characters are just too spoiled with their jumping H's honestly.

ironboy89

I see characters in this game like wesker hulk cap nem wolverine and others that can almost abc 123 to ToD a character while characters with a higher execution curve still have to work hard to put out damage.

But....

Magneto/Doom/Vergil/Viper/Morrigan/etc are all doing things more advanced then ABCs.

The issue with ABC is due to the damage scaling, and how you don't need to do high risk combos when you got Level 3s/THCs/TAC/X-factor to get the damage that you want.

ABC don't really dominate the game at all, and just because it's high execution doesn't make it any less derpy.

But over all there is so much less of an execution barrier in the TvC engine than the original Versus.

Really?

TVC's ABC or Basic combos don't do much damage, and they demand more advance combos to get the most meter possible.

Most characters in TVC ended have super advanced loops if you wanted optimize shit.

The Martian

Rokmode, post: 7668612, member: 48650 wrote:

Honestly, I think grabs are good as it. It's the only option often when you are getting hit by ridiculous bullshit.

What about push block?

BigOlePappy

TheTR3NDSETTA, post: 7668618, member: 55747 wrote:

Just put it like this.... If nemesis lands a hit on you and nearly kills you with a BnB and magneto does the same but can't kill you with a higher execution combo... Who's most likely to open who up again???

You can't really complain about big slow ass fuckin characters doing massive damage with easy execution or characters like Arthur laming you the fuck out when the higher tier chars have all the tools in the game to open up your ass!! (no homo)

Yeah but a lot of the problem chracters arent slow and even have teleports. With the right assists (drones missles cold star) it doesn't even matter really.

Especially online. The risk and execution level to call drones and teleport mix up with Wesker or Vergil is very low but its very hard to block and usually leads to ToD.

I should have prefaced this thread with that I mostly have been playing online these last 3-4 months. To combo consistently with Viper and Strider is very hard, let alone using their tools.

I get really get the appeal of herp derping either. It never feels satisfying when I win with my Nemesis Wesker Hawkeye team. I feel like everytime I win I actually get a bit worse at fighting games as a whole. I feel kinda isolated in this though as there are thousands more players ready to herp derp drones missles wesker vergil then tea bag in lag and then act like they have done something worthwile or requiring skill.

Offline where EX Siesmo is instant people don't like to drones mix up me.

Bakuhakubasugasu

The Martian, post: 7668628, member: 80076 wrote:

What about push block?

Push blocking means nothing to certain characters. Spencer can still zip in, Nova can still dash in after you push block him, same with Magneto. If a player knows his guard break setups and just pushblock grab setups, you're gonna be royally screwed.

Dodeka

Well there is your first problem. Your playing in an online situation where the community is not necessarily the same community offline. Anyone can be a scumbag with any of the characters online(and offline as well, but that's completely different). Your looking at a majority of those players who are barely even competent really, and just use what works/what they like/whatever cause it's online.

Also, dropping "herp derping" as an excuse for online is not really cutting it. The online alone is "herp derp" in it's own right, but you still might find some decent players that are doing things that just work a lot more online then offline(and some that play online and offline). It's not their fault that blocking teleport mix-up's online isn't very favorable.

d3v

Easy execution and high damage simply puts more emphasis on the neutral game because any single mistake can lead to the loss of one of your characters. In other words, it's just like Marvel 2 but with a lower barrier of entry to the high-end, high stakes, ToD stuff.

Rokmode

Don't play online. Somewhere, in a long distant land, captain america puts on an evil smile everytime you decide to press psn/xbox live. Don't do it!

AceKillah

Rokmode, post: 7668742, member: 48650 wrote:

Don't play online. Somewhere, in a long distant land, captain america puts on an evil smile everytime you decide to press psn/xbox live. Don't do it!

The jumping L Shield Slash blockstun infinite.

The Martian

Rokmode, post: 7668742, member: 48650 wrote:

Don't play online. Somewhere, in a long distant land, captain america puts on an evil smile everytime you decide to press psn/xbox live. Don't do it!

In the Online realm of UMVC3, CHARGING STAR IS GOD.

Sottle

The Martian, post: 7668986, member: 80076 wrote:

Fuck Divekick

The Martian, post: 7668986, member: 80076 wrote:

[SIZE=12px]AE[/SIZE][SIZE=12px]-Cammy[/SIZE]

Kratos

what does TOD stands for?

The Martian

Kratos, post: 7669001, member: 56426 wrote:

what does TOD stands for?

Touch of Death.

And Sottle, I barely even use her divekick, not to imply that it's even close to the best in that game.

eivellordsm2

Kratos, post: 7669001, member: 56426 wrote:

what does TOD stands for?

touch of death
pretty much a combo that kills you even when you are at full health

Sottle

The Martian, post: 7669008, member: 80076 wrote:

Touch of Death.

And Sottle, I barely even use her divekick, not to imply that it's even close to the best in that game.

I just figured this thread was full of so many gross over simplifications and bullshit comparisons, i might as well throw in another.

The Martian

Sottle, post: 7669012, member: 10554 wrote:

I just figured this thread was full of so many gross over simplifications and bullshit comparisons, i might as well throw in another.

do u evn lift nigga

DevilJin 01

BigOlePappy, post: 7668200, member: 33662 wrote:

Why TAC combos?
Why ToDs off air throws?
Why umm....Vergil?

But over all there is so much less of an execution barrier in the TvC engine than the original Versus.
People who make the Juggernaut argument forget about the Magnetos, Striders, WMC, IMs, Storms, Sents from the old ones.

Cap's herp derp in MVC1 did like 50 percent.

It makes the game less rewarding. I feel like I'm playing rochambeu.

I'm not alone. This was a common complaint when the game first came out.

Same reason MVC2 allowed you to build meter while whiffing normals and specials and MVC1 had playable characters that had permanent hyper armor. That's just what was put into the game. None of the Marvel games were ever designed around making sure the engine was super fair or completely made sense minus maybe Marvel vs. SF. They pretty much just tried to make the game so every character had something scary and something fun to use after you hit them and then it's pretty much up to the players to make an actual competition out of it.

Either way it was completely worse in Vanilla MVC3. In Vanilla XF1 could kill entire teams on its own with some characters, XF3 pretty much killed some people in 8 buttons without a super depending on the character.



It's also kind of the player's fault because when they did testing for the game, everyone took less damage, but there was complaints that average players couldn't kill the other player's team fast enough and it was making the game boring because of it. Which then they upped the damage and that's where everything doing so much damage probably started. Novice players were finally able to kill people in 99 Marvel seconds regardless of how little combo knowledge they had so of course when combo video guys actually came to break the game down, XF1 combos that gave you enough room to kill 2 people and 1 or 2 meter death combos were found all over.

GameHova

The problem with the game is either character have to little health or ABC are to powerful example Wesker launcher does 100K and it's -1, Strange 73K -21. I would like if damage came from special moves rather than normals, Hulk normals can kill two phoenix before special and hyper.

Buster Cannon

ironboy89, post: 7668623, member: 44847 wrote:

TVC's ABC or Basic combos don't do much damage, and they demand more advance combos to get the most meter possible.

Most characters in TVC ended have super advanced loops if you wanted optimize shit.

Yeah, I kinda liked TvC's combo/scaling engine more because it didn't reward you for sticking with Fisher-Price combos. If you didn't step your execution up, you weren't getting the damage you needed, and as a result would have a lot more trouble against a more seasoned player.

On the other hand, the fact that Marvel 3's engine rewards face-rolling means that you have to step your neutral game up and/or build cheaper teams. You pretty much have to ask yourself why you got hit in the first place, and work on not making that mistake again. Unfortunately people aren't willing to swallow their pride and admit that they messed up in the neutral against a less-experienced player, so they run off and call the game "random".

d3v

DevilJin 01, post: 7669015, member: 1242 wrote:

None of the Marvel games were ever designed around making sure the engine was super fair or completely made sense minus maybe Marvel vs. SF.

And even that had it's retarded bullshit (Wolverine j.MP ROFLcopter meter build into Berserker Charge infinite), on top of generally being considered the worst in the series.

DevilJin 01, post: 7669015, member: 1242 wrote:

It's also kind of the player's fault because when they did testing for the game, everyone took less damage, but there was complaints that average players couldn't kill the other player's team fast enough and it was making the game boring because of it. Which then they upped the damage and that's where everything doing so much damage probably started. Novice players were finally able to kill people in 99 Marvel seconds regardless of how little combo knowledge they had so of course when combo video guys actually came to break the game down, XF1 combos that gave you enough room to kill 2 people and 1 or 2 meter death combos were found all over.

As mentioned before, the article Fanatiq wrote about how "Mahvell" was all about high stakes ToD, made it all the way to 8ing/Niitsuma. This I assume helped influence the game's direction.

YawDan

Seriously people need to stop using Vergil and 'high execution' in the same sentence. Trying to make it seem as if there's a level of skill needed to use him ¬_¬ [1]

More seriously, I think the OP's views were a little subjective, and I disagree with it. You could argue that characters that have a higher execution curve have more ways of opening up the opponent than those with simple combos [2]. When you can whiff a helm breaker, rapid slash, activate spiral swords, rapid slash, teleport, release round trip, rapid slash, you're gonna complain about the Hulk's H?

And the only way Captain America can TOD you is if he gets the opponent with a clean hit off a normal... or shield slash, and has Hidden Missiles. Viper has a triple jump, air dash, gayest blast (youtube MWE X-men parodies), ex seismo, and great boxes on her high priority throws off which she can fully convert, not to mention the fact that she ignores hit-stun and damage scaling. Cap has a semi-invincible cart-wheel, a shield and double jump. I think it's a pretty even match-up. 6-4 Viper depending on assists.

Oh, and for those of you who lack the ability to tell when someone's not really being serious, #Sarcasm #just playing. [3]

I just think there's too much that goes into a match to narrow the 'problem' down to one simple thing, let alone the 'the damage is too d*mn high!' argument.

[1] Don't tell me when I'm here trying to do Super-jump H, dash down-forward H, Super Jump H, dash down-forward H all the way from midscreen only to go into Hyper-grav-> super jump dash down-forward H H hyper grav, that round trip, crouch H, L judgement cut, cr. H, spiral swords constitutes as high execution.

[2] The obvious exception to this of course being Wolverine, and everyone's favourite son twin Vergil.

[3] I probably did that wrong, I don't actually know how to us twitter, let alone have a twitter account.

NonSexualRice

I feel the game is just too damn oppressive and doesn't reward fundamentals. Marvel, actually rewards execution in huge lengths. If you got your Viper on Par, your Zero on Par, and your infinite on par, you will pretty much win with the first hit. The game being oppressive mitigates characters who aren't as oppressive, such as Arthur and Hsien-Ko who cannot fit into the meta. Marvels wrought on terrible decision making and design choices that were taken in the conceptual stage of development.

P. Gorath, post: 7668571, member: 505 wrote:

throws are the biggest problem/strike against this game by far. the upper tier ones have unnatural, comically-large ranges, they beat out a plethora of attacks (?!) destroying the rock/paper/scissors foundation of fighting games, they can still lead to ToD, and characters whose go-to air normal is H are artificially inflated up the tier chart due to option select, while characters who rely on air M or S get fucked.

This being one of them. There's no reason throws in this game should be so devastating; and should have some of the most option selects in this game. Increase frames needed to pull off a throw and make it where it's two or three buttons instead of just one.
Throws in this game are a glaring flaw. For Christ sake, just look at how stupid the Start of the Round Gambit can be if you're vsing someone like Hulk.