JLF replacement with shorter throw?

thecapsaicinkidthecapsaicinkid drops combo, pretends it's a resetJoined: Posts: 991
I want to replace my JLF with something that has;

Shorter throw
Slightly stiffer
Will likely fit in the same mounting with an S-Plate
Can be fitted with a bat top
Octo gate

Any suggestions?

Was looking at the Seimitsu LS-40-01 but didn't see any octo gates anywhere.

Are there thicker actuators for the JLF? Maybe one of those, a stiffer spring and octogate would do the trick instead.
Fighting game player, coder, chilli lover, ruffian.

Comments

  • kikimaru024kikimaru024 Mid-tier scrub Joined: Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭
    Seimitsu LS-56/58 + octogate.
    Seimitsu & K-sticks > Sanwa JLF.
    This truth is not universally acknowledged.
  • ShinMagusShinMagus Joined: Posts: 195
    You should also mention that the Seimitsu LS-56/58 has a much shorter engage... That's nice for dashing, but it also means that imprecise movements, performed during commands in fighting games, that might not activate the Sanwa JLF do activate the LS-56/58. ;(

    My personal experience with an LS-58 is that I'm "not good enough for it", because of these undesirable direction activations while performing special moves. In SSF4AE it's ok, since the game accepts a lot of input garbage, but old games aren't like that. Hopefully one day I'll change my opinion, since I do find the LS-58 with an octagonal gate outstanding.
    Magus
    12000 B.C. - Dark Ages
    "The black wind begins to blow..."
    "Can you hear that? It's the sound of the Reaper."
  • NubertNubert Toasty!!! Joined: Posts: 38
    I prefer the Seimitsu ls-32 than the ls-56/58, the ls-56/58 has a very short throw, but I just don't like that they feel like a toy joystick, the ls-32 feels a bit higher quality and it feels great with whatever modification you want to add to it, sadly it doesn't have an octo gate, but you can order a circle gate from arcadeshop.de, but if you don't like circle gates or square gates your only choice would be the ls-56/58, or just stick to the JLF because it feels great after you get used to it, just need to practice alot, you can switch the JLF's spring to a slightly stiffer spring, they sell custom made springs for the JLF at paradisearcadeshop.com
  • GeorgeCGeorgeC Joined: Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭
    You should also mention that the Seimitsu LS-56/58 has a much shorter engage... That's nice for dashing, but it also means that imprecise movements, performed during commands in fighting games, that might not activate the Sanwa JLF do activate the LS-56/58. ;(

    My personal experience with an LS-58 is that I'm "not good enough for it", because of these undesirable direction activations while performing special moves. In SSF4AE it's ok, since the game accepts a lot of input garbage, but old games aren't like that. Hopefully one day I'll change my opinion, since I do find the LS-58 with an octagonal gate outstanding.

    That would be basically anything pre-Dreamcast era...

    Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

    It's something most JLF-boys aren't familiar with because they don't seem to play any games made before 2008!
    Playing with a JLF on mid-1990s fighers is a major pain...

    Poly fighters are one thing but the sprite fighters are actually faster-paced and the JLF doesn't seem to cut mustard. It's difficult to hit both the Dragon Punches and tap-tap dash moves with the JLF.
    I've done fine with both the LS-32 and LS-40 with the Neo Geo/CPS-2 fighters as well as about every other game genre (although it's advisable to play some earlier games, say like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, with a four-directional gate setting).

    *******

    LS-40 and LS-32 do NOT have octogates... You have to mod what is on-market for other joysticks to fit these two control lever bases, or get used to the stock square gate. The square gate is not so bad on the Seimitsu joysticks. You get a lot of help from the fact that microswitches are actually gated... If anything, the gates make circular and shoto moves easier with the Seimitsu joysticks, IMHO, without sacrificing accuracy. Of course, the fact that these joysticks have microgates on them are why you won't see Flash/Optical versions of most Seimitsu joysticks, either!

    There is/was a circular gate for the LS-32 but it definitely does not feel like a JLF octogate or the LS-33/-55/-56 octogate. Suggestion: learn to play/tolerate the stock square gate. Works out better for you in the long run. It's also not the hassle on the Seimitsu brand that the JLF square gate seems to be for many people.
    (Of course, I don't even see LS-32 circular gates being offered anymore, either! Seimitsu discontinued production of the -32 circular gate???!!!!??? I no longer see the item offered on either the Akihabarashop.jp or Focus Attack websites!)
  • hibachifinalhibachifinal Little Princess Joined: Posts: 819 ✭✭✭✭
    Regarding Seimitsu sticks and gates... there's a small observation. The SUBGUIDES (blue/yellow additions to the main guide) actually alter the square gates if only by a hair, but it's noticeable.... Whenever i put the sub-guide on 8-way (circle/squarish one part of the sub-guide)... most of the time, it ends up going over the corners of the main square gate, and thus, if you ride the gate, you can feel your shaft/actuator hit small indentations of the sub-guide, making it a bit more circular than standard gate w/o sub-gate. This is noticeable in LS-32's, but more so in LS-40's.... I personally don't like this feeling so I remove the sub-guide.
    Photo%20Nov%2005%2C%209%2046%2048%20AM.jpg

    I'm gonna have to chime in for the LS-32 as well, simply said, i'd say its the 'Saturn D-pad' of joysticks, very comfortable and versatile, works great for a lot of games/genres, old-school or not.

    As for the LS-40's, i would generally not advise it to most stick users, especially those used to JLF's. It's selling feature (short throw and faster engage) can also be it's flaw. It's the most error-prone stick in my opinion, takes a while to get adjusted to it. But that's just my experience, generally they say LS-40' and LS-56's are the same on these respects, but i found LS-56 to be more comfortable and efficient for me, and is currently my preferred stick.

    If you plan on using a battop, I suggest getting something with heavier tension as well, JLF with LS-55 spring (plus octogate) is one cheap suggestion. but jlf octogate increases throw.
    SEIMITSU RADICAL やっぱり四角ガイドは、素晴らしい。
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    I'll chime in and mention I've been playing on a throw shortened LS-40 and I don't feel like I'm having any more issues than if I was to play on a JLF. I actually have more problems on sticks with larger throws simply because I'm much more comfortable on a movement restricted stick.

    As for LS-40 vs LS-56, they're the same when it comes to engage and throw. The difference in feel comes from the microswitch layout. The LS-40 has off center switches that rely on the levers, compared to the LS-56 which uses centered switches with levers to keep the action fast and smooth. I personally prefer the feel of the centered switches and I think they're a bit more accurate, but the LS-40 is still an amazing stick. I'd highly recommend either stick.
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • jaquiojaquio Joined: Posts: 192
    That would be basically anything pre-Dreamcast era...

    Seimitsu discontinued production of the -32 circular gate???!!!!??? I no longer see the item offered on either the Akihabarashop.jp or Focus Attack websites!)
    Yes....it's gone.
  • kuradoberijamfrkuradoberijamfr Joined: Posts: 47
    Sanwa Jlw (J-stick) also available with octo gate (ultimarc), is harder than a jlf but not that much faster though. There is a version with a thicker shaft as well as a battop straight out of the box.

    As for the strong blocking diagonals, this is inherent to Sanwa square gates. You may change your opinion after trying a Seimitsu square gate which are much less blocky.
  • R-CADE GamingR-CADE Gaming Old-School Joined: Posts: 187
    Take a look at the mod I made for the JLF to reduce throw and engage:

    http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41451

    I lay out my argument there why it's one of the best joystick options available.
    SS4AE: Ryu/Sagat/Balrog
    SFA3: Akuma
    BBCS: Hakumen/Arakune/Jin
    Last Blade: Lee <- anyone else play this?

    Custom Joystick Builder
    Planning a Cabinet: Astro City style, MAME + all actual consoles from NES to PS3, all native resolutions on CRT TV
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    Take a look at the mod I made for the JLF to reduce throw and engage:

    http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41451

    I lay out my argument there why it's one of the best joystick options available.

    You could have done that by simply adding a spacer to slide over the actuator and by using levered microswitches and saved yourself a huge amount of time.
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • R-CADE GamingR-CADE Gaming Old-School Joined: Posts: 187
    The actuator is a complex shape. How could I have made a spacer to slide over it? Anyhow, maintaining the stock actuator and using this method maintains the proportions of throw and engage while reducing them.

    I really don't like levered microswitches. The levers can bend over time at different rates and you end up with different engage distances for different directions. This can even be off from the factory, and getting them all aligned is a pain. I think I mentioned this somewhere.

    I'm sticking with the JLF because of it's inherent accuracy, reliability and smoothness. The mod doesn't mess that up.
    SS4AE: Ryu/Sagat/Balrog
    SFA3: Akuma
    BBCS: Hakumen/Arakune/Jin
    Last Blade: Lee <- anyone else play this?

    Custom Joystick Builder
    Planning a Cabinet: Astro City style, MAME + all actual consoles from NES to PS3, all native resolutions on CRT TV
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    The mod totally kills your stick though, it is no longer stock and you've done things like drill into the base and the gate. Not only that but you have to order another actuator to destroy just to do this.

    If you got Omron short levered switches, they won't bend over time. I've had long levered switches for years and they haven't bent out of shape, so I have no idea why you think they'll bend out of shape. Aligning switches with levers isn't difficult at all, you fit the little holes over the little nubs that hold the switches in place...

    A spacer you can get from Home Depot for $.50, and you can widen the diameter of the center by either sanding or drilling so it slides over the actuator.

    I think you're a bit biased for the JLF and its accuracy, reliability and smoothness since many a stick are just as reliable and smooth.
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • hibachifinalhibachifinal Little Princess Joined: Posts: 819 ✭✭✭✭
    levered switches don't fit in the JLF body, sadly.... at least the ones i tried (LS-56/matsushita).

    but i kinda agree that JLF mod is pretty excessive, just the effort to get it right might not be worth it, when u can easily get a stick which already has those features with little to no modification. It is interesting though and i have enough spare JLF that i just might try it.
    SEIMITSU RADICAL やっぱり四角ガイドは、素晴らしい。
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    levered switches don't fit in the JLF body, sadly.... at least the ones i tried (LS-56/matsushita).

    but i kinda agree that JLF mod is pretty excessive, just the effort to get it right might not be worth it, when u can easily get a stick which already has those features with little to no modification. It is interesting though and i have enough spare JLF that i just might try it.

    Short levered micros will fit, I put some in a JLF to test it. You can use these and they'll work fine. Though, this particular model is 200 gf. You'd want one that has about 150 gf, and they do exist, I'm just using this picture to illustrate for you the switch you'd need.
    V-15G1-1C25-K.JPG
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • hibachifinalhibachifinal Little Princess Joined: Posts: 819 ✭✭✭✭
    Short levered micros will fit, I put some in a JLF to test it. You can use these and they'll work fine. Though, this particular model is 200 gf. You'd want one that has about 150 gf, and they do exist, I'm just using this picture to illustrate for you the switch you'd need.


    actaulyl right after i posted that i tested it again and used the omrons from a jlf, took out the levers from matsushita's and put em in omrons. and yeah they do indeed fit. for some reason the omron switches has level slots closer to the tabs than a matsushita, allowing it to fit ok on JLF bodies...

    that said though while it did help in the engage, i found it weird because the de-clicking/pressing of the switches seem inconsistent because the JLF actuator is so tight inside the levered switches.. maybe that's just me though.. that said, they seem work really well on the stock Hori joysticks (EX2, T5, FS)
    SEIMITSU RADICAL やっぱり四角ガイドは、素晴らしい。
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    The problem with that method is the levers from the Matsushita levers aren't meant to fit in Omron switches. If you were to have a set of Omron/Cherry/Zippy levers, you'd see they're actually a bit shorter in height than the Matsushita levers. Because of this, there will be extra resistance to the switches engaging, it won't be as smooth. Getting a set of Omron switches with levers works out much better. Also, there are two dips in Cherry, Omron, and Zippy cases that allows for the lever to be in two different positions depending on your needs. It does feel odd at first, but the engage should be more in line with a LS-40 or LS-56, but the throw will still be bigger. That's why you'd need to add a spacer to the actuator, to get that shorter, too.
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • Lolz_A_Tron3000Lolz_A_Tron3000 That One Lurker Joined: Posts: 23
    not sure if this will help or is what your looking for but here is a old simple JLF mod that will cost atmost $3 including buying the octo gate.
    :u::u::d::d::b::f::b::f: :snkb::snka: START
  • R-CADE GamingR-CADE Gaming Old-School Joined: Posts: 187
    The JLF actuator is a different O.D. for the section which actuates the switches and the section that contact the restrictor gate. You have to keep these in proportion or you lose the proportion of engage to throw, and things really get messed.

    Furthermore, the section which actuates the microswitches is tapered, and must be so in order to actuate smoothly. Cutting a perfectly uniform cylindrical tap is not so easy.

    Finally there isn't any room for any larger of a diameter actuator at the switches. This is why Kowal had to resort to a square profile instead of the stock profile, which has its own problems.

    Have you ever built a gauge to accurately check your engage distances? They can change with levers. I got a new LS-32 that had a much shorter engage distance for one direction than the others. When I say "align" I mean bending the levers back to get all the engage distances equal.

    From the thread "This does not irreversibly harm the stick. Only excess plastic is removed, and there are plenty of unaltered pegs and holes remaining to hold and center the microswitches/restrictor after returning to stock."

    Also mentioned in the thread, the total cost is under $10.

    "2 Sanwa JLF P-5 Actuators - Two will be modified, so a third is needed to return to stock... These are available at FocusAttack.com for 90 cents US each"
    SS4AE: Ryu/Sagat/Balrog
    SFA3: Akuma
    BBCS: Hakumen/Arakune/Jin
    Last Blade: Lee <- anyone else play this?

    Custom Joystick Builder
    Planning a Cabinet: Astro City style, MAME + all actual consoles from NES to PS3, all native resolutions on CRT TV
  • R-CADE GamingR-CADE Gaming Old-School Joined: Posts: 187
    Tape mod is pretty weak..
    SS4AE: Ryu/Sagat/Balrog
    SFA3: Akuma
    BBCS: Hakumen/Arakune/Jin
    Last Blade: Lee <- anyone else play this?

    Custom Joystick Builder
    Planning a Cabinet: Astro City style, MAME + all actual consoles from NES to PS3, all native resolutions on CRT TV
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    Dude I don't get it, the levers rest on the pins of the microswitch. They should not be bent, and there shouldn't be any aligning to do. They either rest on the pin, or they are pressing the pin in. And I'm not talking LS-32 levered switches, I'm talking short levered Omron switches which do not extend past the pin. They fit perfectly fine in the JLF and make the engagement much, much faster, and they're perfectly smooth.
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • R-CADE GamingR-CADE Gaming Old-School Joined: Posts: 187
    Ok, those ones won't bend. Didn't see your pic, just saw your previous reply in my email notification.

    Now, have you made a perfectly round custom spacer, with concentric ID and OD, to reduce the throw. Have you calculated it precisely to get it back to proper engage/throw proportions? Not so simple.
    SS4AE: Ryu/Sagat/Balrog
    SFA3: Akuma
    BBCS: Hakumen/Arakune/Jin
    Last Blade: Lee <- anyone else play this?

    Custom Joystick Builder
    Planning a Cabinet: Astro City style, MAME + all actual consoles from NES to PS3, all native resolutions on CRT TV
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    Well, if you want to decrease the throw range, then go to a hardware store and look at their nylon spacers. Obviously, be sure to take a ruler that has mm on it and the actuator from the JLF so you can take measurements while at the store. Often you can find one or two that are 1 mm or 2 mm larger od than the od of the actuator. Often the id won't be the same as the actuator, so you'll have to drill the center out so it slips over the top. Then you have a perfectly easy method to set it back to stock if you want, by simply removing the spacer off the actuator. The engage can be shorted with levered switches. No need to mod the base, or the gate, or add height between the gate and the base or have to cut actuators to stack on top of each other or make tons of calculations just to change something very simple.

    If you want, I can take pics of my LS-40 mod that fixes this easy.
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • R-CADE GamingR-CADE Gaming Old-School Joined: Posts: 187
    Often the id won't be the same as the actuator, so you'll have to drill the center out so it slips over the top.

    This is the problem. I've drilled nylon spacers many times. You can't do this without getting things out of round with conventional home equipment. Nylon is soft, so keeping your cut perfectly concentric is difficult, and I have a drill press. Often the spacer will spin on the bit, so you have to secure it somehow, which is difficult to do without marking up the soft material. Add to all this the fact that the drilling creates heat and the spacer will warp very easily. It's not easy.

    Also, you need to calculate the right O.D. based on how much you've reduced throw. If you're just guessing, you're not maintaining your proportions.

    My mod is not that difficult, it's cheap, it's completely reversible, it's guaranteed to maintain all the original benefits of the JLF while only shortening engage and throw, and it's guaranteed to maintain the original engage throw proportion.
    SS4AE: Ryu/Sagat/Balrog
    SFA3: Akuma
    BBCS: Hakumen/Arakune/Jin
    Last Blade: Lee <- anyone else play this?

    Custom Joystick Builder
    Planning a Cabinet: Astro City style, MAME + all actual consoles from NES to PS3, all native resolutions on CRT TV
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    This is the problem. I've drilled nylon spacers many times. You can't do this without getting things out of round with conventional home equipment. Nylon is soft, so keeping your cut perfectly concentric is difficult, and I have a drill press. Often the spacer will spin on the bit, so you have to secure it somehow, which is difficult to do without marking up the soft material. Add to all this the fact that the drilling creates heat and the spacer will warp very easily. It's not easy.

    Also, you need to calculate the right O.D. based on how much you've reduced throw. If you're just guessing, you're not maintaining your proportions.

    My mod is not that difficult, it's cheap, it's completely reversible, it's guaranteed to maintain all the original benefits of the JLF while only shortening engage and throw, and it's guaranteed to maintain the original engage throw proportion.

    What's so hard about choosing an OD? If you want to cut movement from the actuator to the gate by 1 mm, then find a spacer with a 2 mm larger OD.

    If you want to drill a spacer, and you already have a drill press, then use a forstner bit and drill a hole into a piece of MDF. Put the spacer in there, clamp the MDF to your work table and use the drill press to drill a new diameter in it. You don't need to use a high speed if you're worried about warping it, most drills are variable speed and since the material is soft, it doesn't require high speed. Use a very slow speed and take your time.

    Or, you could do it by hand, and wrap some sandpaper around a pencil or something and by hand, roll the ID of the spacer around the sandpaper wrapped pencil to widen the ID. Sand, test, sand, test, when it finally fits, you're good to go. If you're careful and take your time, you can make a perfectly fine spacer. Since I don't have a drill press, this is what I had to do. Just watch a movie or something while you do it.

    How do you reverse drilling holes into the base of your JLF? Good luck trying to sell a JLF that has holes drilled into the base if you choose to move on to a different stick.

    Edit: Pics
    2mop212.jpg
    v2rbsl.jpg
    2mnkwvk.jpg
    16aqyoz.jpg

    Extremely simple and easy mod that adds an extra 2 mm diameter to the LS-40 actuator. The engage is already short enough, so all that needed modded was the throw. If I want to put it back to stock, all I have to do is slip the cover off. Something similar can easily be done to the JLF, without the need of cutting up a bunch of JLF actuators, having to wait for them to ship, drilling holes into the base and gate, and so on.
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • Lolz_A_Tron3000Lolz_A_Tron3000 That One Lurker Joined: Posts: 23
    @ R-CADE Gaming
    im assuming the post bellow mine was refering to what moonchilde said? if so explain why the "tape mod is weak" simply becuase it's using electric tape and post it notes and its not perm or ?
    :u::u::d::d::b::f::b::f: :snkb::snka: START
  • ShinMagusShinMagus Joined: Posts: 195
    That would be basically anything pre-Dreamcast era...

    Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

    It's something most JLF-boys aren't familiar with because they don't seem to play any games made before 2008!
    Playing with a JLF on mid-1990s fighers is a major pain...

    Poly fighters are one thing but the sprite fighters are actually faster-paced and the JLF doesn't seem to cut mustard. It's difficult to hit both the Dragon Punches and tap-tap dash moves with the JLF.
    I've done fine with both the LS-32 and LS-40 with the Neo Geo/CPS-2 fighters as well as about every other game genre (although it's advisable to play some earlier games, say like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, with a four-directional gate setting).

    Well, still, what I meant is that an LS-58 makes you more error-prone than a JLF, with that really short engage. I played a lot of SFA3 (granted, it's not exactly mid-1990) on GGPO with a JLF over the years... A fair amount of SSF2T too.

    Dashing and playing shmups on a JLF is rather disheartening. :(
    Magus
    12000 B.C. - Dark Ages
    "The black wind begins to blow..."
    "Can you hear that? It's the sound of the Reaper."
  • R-CADE GamingR-CADE Gaming Old-School Joined: Posts: 187
    What's so hard about choosing an OD? If you want to cut movement from the actuator to the gate by 1 mm, then find a spacer with a 2 mm larger OD.

    ..you need to calculate the right O.D. based on how much you've reduced throw. If you're just guessing, you're not maintaining your proportions...

    (stock switch engagement diameter) / (stock restrictor engagement diameter) = (modded switch engagement diameter) / (modded restrictor engagement diameter)

    If you don't maintain this, you don't maintain the original engage/throw proportion. Maybe you want to change it, but you should be calculating for the desired effect somehow.
    If you want to drill a spacer, and you already have a drill press, then use a forstner bit and drill a hole into a piece of MDF. Put the spacer in there, clamp the MDF to your work table and use the drill press to drill a new diameter in it. You don't need to use a high speed if you're worried about warping it, most drills are variable speed and since the material is soft, it doesn't require high speed. Use a very slow speed and take your time.


    I don't have a drill press...

    The hole would have to be a precise diameter to be tight enough to keep the spacer from spinning. Might not even work without marring up the outside of the spacer, and it's not likely you'll have the exact sized bit anyway.

    If you run it too slow it will just bind.
    Or, you could do it by hand, and wrap some sandpaper around a pencil or something and by hand, roll the ID of the spacer around the sandpaper wrapped pencil to widen the ID. Sand, test, sand, test, when it finally fits, you're good to go. If you're careful and take your time, you can make a perfectly fine spacer. Since I don't have a drill press, this is what I had to do. Just watch a movie or something while you do it.

    Ok, this can certainly be done, but it I'm sure it takes quite a while, and you'd have to be extremely careful to keep the I.D. concentric with the O.D. In your last picture it looks you've got it a little thinner at the top left than the bottom right. I don't know, that one could be perfect and it's just the camera angle, but it would be difficult and time consuming for people to replicate that.

    It looks like you did a good job, but it's not as simple as you were trying to make it sound.

    How do you reverse drilling holes into the base of your JLF? Good luck trying to sell a JLF that has holes drilled into the base if you choose to move on to a different stick.

    The drilling just enlarges holes that are already existing, and they're in an area of excess plastic anyway. It doesn't affect operation in any way after returning to stock.

    The point is that I don't know why you have this need to try and tear down my mod. Mine may have more steps, but overall it's arguably quicker and with less room for error.

    What does it matter to you anyway? Sounds like you stick to Seimitsus, so why jump all over me when I suggest a mod for someone who's asking about a JLF? It doesn't even sound like you've tested your mod with a JLF for much play time. I know that mine has been working great months. Others have followed my instructions and responded that it was not very hard and they're pleased with the results.

    Why can't both be suggested without you feeling a need to invalidate mine?
    @ R-CADE Gaming
    im assuming the post bellow mine was refering to what moonchilde said? if so explain why the "tape mod is weak" simply becuase it's using electric tape and post it notes and its not perm or ?

    The tape is somewhat soft; won't feel as good as a hard plastic actuator; the microswitches/levers will probably cut into it over time; the seams where the tape starts/stops will create notches; it will eventually start peeling away and make a mess; etc.

    It's a short term solution. You get back what you put into it.
    SS4AE: Ryu/Sagat/Balrog
    SFA3: Akuma
    BBCS: Hakumen/Arakune/Jin
    Last Blade: Lee <- anyone else play this?

    Custom Joystick Builder
    Planning a Cabinet: Astro City style, MAME + all actual consoles from NES to PS3, all native resolutions on CRT TV
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde 2 fingers of brains! Joined: Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭✭
    (stock switch engagement diameter) / (stock restrictor engagement diameter) = (modded switch engagement diameter) / (modded restrictor engagement diameter)

    If you don't maintain this, you don't maintain the original engage/throw proportion. Maybe you want to change it, but you should be calculating for the desired effect somehow.

    Man, that is just very complicated for something very simple. You want to shorten throw, then decide how much you want to shorten it by and then do it. You don't need to calculate it, just try different things out. Start off with the tape mod, little by little until it feels good. Once you get a good feeling, take a measurement of the outer diameter and then by a spacer that's the same size. Mod the spacer to fit over the actuator. That's what I did and it turned out I wanted a diameter 2 mm larger than the stock actuator in the LS-40. Feel is more important that having a calculation that may or may not feel good.

    Now as far as the throw was concerned, yes I did shorten the throw on a JLF to see how it felt, and I didn't like it, especially after playing on Seimitsu sticks for a while. I feel that the stock engage was pretty ok, the most I'd have done was put in levered switches for quicker action, but overall I don't feel stick is good, even with that massive throw shortened and levered switches swapped in. So I gave my JLF to a friend for a loner stick during get togethers.
    The hole would have to be a precise diameter to be tight enough to keep the spacer from spinning. Might not even work without marring up the outside of the spacer, and it's not likely you'll have the exact sized bit anyway.

    If you run it too slow it will just bind.

    Japanese sticks are by the mm, so if you have bits that are mm then you can certainly do it. Or you could do it by hand and keep measuring and testing against the actuator. I've drilled nylon (the hard kind) without issues in the past, and even at maximum speed on my hand drill the plastic never melted. Using a Dremmel, I've melted plastic before, but I was cutting it so I didn't care anyway and it was going to be sanded smooth later. Of course, those go much faster than my hand drill, so it should be obvious that very high speed (like 20,000 RPM) will cause the metal to get hot which will in turn melt the plastic.
    Ok, this can certainly be done, but it I'm sure it takes quite a while, and you'd have to be extremely careful to keep the I.D. concentric with the O.D. In your last picture it looks you've got it a little thinner at the top left than the bottom right. I don't know, that one could be perfect and it's just the camera angle, but it would be difficult and time consuming for people to replicate that.

    It looks like you did a good job, but it's not as simple as you were trying to make it sound.

    It does take a while, but we're talking about an hour and a half to two hours to sand away a few mm of plastic. Like I wrote, watch a movie or a few episodes of your favorite TV show. The bottom picture is a combination of camera angle and silicon grease blurring the spacer against the actuator, but it's fairly accurate.
    The drilling just enlarges holes that are already existing, and they're in an area of excess plastic anyway. It doesn't affect operation in any way after returning to stock.

    It may not affect operation but I think the fact it's drilled would make it a harder sell. Just saying, people can be picky about that especially if it isn't like new. Also, you super glue the washer to the base, that's a bad idea when you can use silicon grease to keep it in place. The grease creates a suction on the washer and it can still be difficult to pull off, and you don't need to worry about it being permanently fixed to the base while still being secure.
    The point is that I don't know why you have this need to try and tear down my mod. Mine may have more steps, but overall it's arguably quicker and with less room for error.

    What does it matter to you anyway? Sounds like you stick to Seimitsus, so why jump all over me when I suggest a mod for someone who's asking about a JLF? It doesn't even sound like you've tested your mod with a JLF for much play time. I know that mine has been working great months. Others have followed my instructions and responded that it was not very hard and they're pleased with the results.

    Why can't both be suggested without you feeling a need to invalidate mine?

    I don't feel like I need to, I just think you've made something simple really complicated, even to the point of including a mathematical equation. Arguably quicker, maybe. Mine really doesn't take that long either, and your's requires a hack saw and filing, and possibly cutting off too much of the JLF actuator and needing to buy another one and wait for shipping. I mean both mods could have something go wrong, mine could end up with sanding off too much from the inner diameter of the spacer, but yours treads into the area of possibly drilling the switches at an angle, drilling the gate at an angle, incorrectly cutting the actuators, filing off too much of the actuators, and so on.

    If it works, it works, but I just feel its an overly complicated method of getting from point A to point B, which is to shorten throw, though you also wanted to shorten the engage as well, in which case I would just suggest getting a custom actuator that does both without having to kill the potential to sell the JLF to someone else when/if they get another JLF or an alternative.
    The tape is somewhat soft; won't feel as good as a hard plastic actuator; the microswitches/levers will probably cut into it over time; the seams where the tape starts/stops will create notches; it will eventually start peeling away and make a mess; etc.

    It's a short term solution. You get back what you put into it.

    You can get a pretty tough vinyl tape that can be used, which is what I did to test shortening the throw prior to getting the spacer, but over time the tape's glue will lose its tact and come loose, especially in hotter climates. I could see electric tape being too soft, but you can get a hard vinyl tape. Still, it doesn't have that "slap" that a good nylon plastic on plastic has. Never had a problem with levers or switches cutting into it. Nor had any problems with the seam in the tape creating any play issues, a thin tape will be negligible.

    So agreed there. The biggest problem with the tape mod is it isn't permanent and will get loose over time.

    It's great for testing to find that sweet spot though!

    BTW man, I'm not trying to be rude or disregard anything you've done, using a height difference to decrease throw and engage at the same time is a good idea. The only thing is, did you test how it would feel before you did it, or did you just work an equation and hope for the best? Personally, I wouldn't do anything unless I tested it first, which is why I did the tape mod and added/subtracted tape to find the sweet spot of how much decreased throw would be good and then got the spacer to make it a reversible and low wear and tear solution.

    Maybe my 2 suggestions for your mod would be to not super glue the washer to the base, and find a nylon spacer with the outer diameter matching lower inner diameter of the JLF actuator to use instead of another one. This way the spacer would fit nice and snug under the actuator and you don't have to go order an import part to do the mod, you can use something that is commonly found in local hardware stores. I do personally like the idea of using screws to keep the gate on, those damn JLF tabs are irritating as hell and I worry they would break if I have to regularly remove the gate to test mods to the stick.
    A pinch of your brother, a teaspoon of you,
    With the head of your sister, would make a good stew.
    I'd give you a taste, but your tongue's in the stew. Irony!
    That's what Halloween means to me.
  • kuradoberijamfrkuradoberijamfr Joined: Posts: 47
    That's just too much work.
    If you want something faster, just purchase an other joystick. End of story.
  • R-CADE GamingR-CADE Gaming Old-School Joined: Posts: 187
    It may not affect operation but I think the fact it's drilled would make it a harder sell. Just saying, people can be picky about that especially if it isn't like new.

    I'm not selling it. I can't afford half a JLF's worth of parts. Life will go on.
    Also, you super glue the washer to the base, that's a bad idea when you can use silicon grease to keep it in place.

    From the link:
    "If there is a good amount of grease on the spring holder, it will pick up one side of the pivot washer out of its indentation as it moves over it. Then it will hang up as it gets pressed back down. This will cause an annoying popping feeling at times while you're moving the stick around, and it can be pretty bad after this mod. Gluing it down will eliminate the problem and ensure completely smooth operation. There's not any reason its needs to be taken back off again anyhow."
    ...find a nylon spacer with the outer diameter matching lower inner diameter of the JLF actuator to use instead of another one. This way the spacer would fit nice and snug under the actuator and you don't have to go order an import part to do the mod, you can use something that is commonly found in local hardware stores.

    This could certainly be done. I recommended just using another actuator because they're readily available at Focus Attack for 90 cents, and they're already the right ID and OD.

    It does take a while, but we're talking about an hour and a half to two hours to sand away a few mm of plastic. Like I wrote, watch a movie or a few episodes of your favorite TV show.

    You might be able to finish my entire mod in less time than this. The hardest part is shortening the extra actuators and it's not as difficult as creating the spacer in yours.

    BTW man, I'm not trying to be rude or disregard anything you've done, using a height difference to decrease throw and engage at the same time is a good idea.

    That's really what the beauty of the mod is. By decreasing them both with the same geometric change you're guaranteed to retain the right proportions.
    The only thing is, did you test how it would feel before you did it, or did you just work an equation and hope for the best? Personally, I wouldn't do anything unless I tested it first, which is why I did the tape mod and added/subtracted tape to find the sweet spot of how much decreased throw would be good and then got the spacer to make it a reversible and low wear and tear solution.

    I knew that I wanted to keep the throw/engage proportion (what the equation refers to) consistent with stock because it was designed that way for a reason. It's important to maintain appropriately proportioned engage zone for all eight directions.

    As for others things, like how much to reduce the combined engage/throw, I did of course do some tests. It went through several revisions refining it and working out the bugs before I shared it on the forum.
    If it works, it works, but I just feel its an overly complicated method of getting from point A to point B, which is to shorten throw, though you also wanted to shorten the engage as well, in which case I would just suggest getting a custom actuator that does both without having to kill the potential to sell the JLF to someone else when/if they get another JLF or an alternative.

    I don't think it's more difficult than your mod, and it guarantees and excellent result.
    I could see electric tape being too soft, but you can get a hard vinyl tape. Still, it doesn't have that "slap" that a good nylon plastic on plastic has.
    ...
    The biggest problem with the tape mod is it isn't permanent and will get loose over time.

    Agreed, these are the two biggest problems with it. I can see it would be good for rough testing.
    That's just too much work.
    If you want something faster, just purchase an other joystick. End of story.

    Right. Makes sense. Who even needs custom sticks? Creativity, ingenuity, and originality are just too much work. Everyone can just use a Mad Catz. End of story.

    ...some people are willing to put a little work in to get something that's a little better or more unique than something that can be bought off the shelf.
    SS4AE: Ryu/Sagat/Balrog
    SFA3: Akuma
    BBCS: Hakumen/Arakune/Jin
    Last Blade: Lee <- anyone else play this?

    Custom Joystick Builder
    Planning a Cabinet: Astro City style, MAME + all actual consoles from NES to PS3, all native resolutions on CRT TV
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