My most wanted change for AE2013

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  • The-OlympianThe-Olympian 4 the Glory of Gaea Joined: Posts: 2,053 ✭✭
    Lol offline major. Sfxt usb connector lag. Monitor lag. Ps3 over heating... Lag .... Stream stage setup lag....

    Offline can just be as bad.
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  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,313 ✭✭✭✭
    Online rewards mashing and wake up ultras way too much. sure there is USB, monitor, lag etc... but an internet connection is probably the worst form of lag

    You do learn a lot from online but there are clearly limitations. Its not completely useless but if you have local scene it would be better to do that.
  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭
    Dont want to flame anybody but I feel that my skills have vastly improved by going to my local scene and play against them + training mode + youtube videos than all the amount of time I've spent online (since vanilla). Sure my combos are better but matchup knowledge, experiencing character specific stuff, I've learned a lot less of those online.

    I cannot compare (as of now) an average, online Rog that does fullscreen ex punches, no ambiguous jump ins after a headbutt, sweep combos, etc to a offline Rog who regularly does that. And yes, lag can prevent some people doing so
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  • ProjectjusticeProjectjustice Sonic Boom! Joined: Posts: 1,813 ✭✭
    You make it sound like offline comp is the spawn of satan. Sorry if I offended your rank.






    Who said I experienced lag?


    I don't get this need to defend online play when it obviously doesn't compare to playing and having an offline scene, saying it's just as viable because solid connections and green bars minimize lag whereas in offline play there is no lag. You can get away with a lot of dumb stuff online, and you can't play proper footsies or frame traps since the reaction time is delayed by 2-4 frames; you end up throwing out normals in anticipation as oppose to reaction. You have to readjust the timing on links (a very bad thing if you're planning to play at a offline major) and make pre-emptive movements to compensate for inputs coming out a couple frames late. You can't tell me there wasn't a time where you pressed :lp: + :lk: and it didn't tech a throw, or you had a magic pixel left and you did Ultra on wakeup to avoid the chip only for it not to come out.



    If you enjoy playing online, then good for you, but like I said, you can't get a concrete basis for the tiers and matchups by strictly playing in that environment, not when you can't react when you want, everyone's playing autopilot, and nobody's punishing you for the mistakes you make.

    I agree that online at times doesnt match offline but to say you cant find players that play correct with footsies and frame traps online is incorrect because of the environment. I think its cause a lot of online players just arent good or dont care about getting good enough to understand that level of play. Ive gotten emails from people giving me props for actually knowing how to play and understanding my character. Perhaps your personal experience isnt as good as it could be online.

    There has been times that I know lag affected a tech throw or a combo or a setup. You know what I do? I get over it and continue playing. I act as if I dropped the combo and now its up to me to make my comback. Adds another level of training to me.

    I disagree. You make a mistake vs me and you will be punished. Footies are a huge part of my play style. You will eat alot of toes vs me. I only play people under good network conditions. If your connection shows any hint of lag you are getting kicked.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lol offline major. Sfxt usb connector lag. Monitor lag. Ps3 over heating... Lag .... Stream stage setup lag....

    Offline can just be as bad.

    doesn't exist. I really wish people would stop spreading that misinformation. Unless the USB hub/connector has around 6-8 devices hooked up to it with around 5-10x the power required of a joystick (I mean like, portable harddrive power requirements) then the difference between a USB hub and being directly plugged in is infinitesimally small. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.000000000001 frame delay, about as much delay as you might get from having a 15foot cable instead of an 8foot cable and how often do you see people talking about lag due to cable length on their stick/pad. This issue has been debunked numerous times. The FGC is really a very very superstitious group of people. (Just look at how often people claim something was nerfed or something was buffed right after a patch comes out only for it to turn out to be entirely in their head.)
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  • LiangHuBBBLiangHuBBB Joined: Posts: 781
  • Ryuken9Ryuken9 Joined: Posts: 504
    Online rewards mashing and wake up ultras way too much. sure there is USB, monitor, lag etc... but an internet connection is probably the worst form of lag

    You do learn a lot from online but there are clearly limitations. Its not completely useless but if you have local scene it would be better to do that.

    PS3 over heating causes way more lag than your typical online lag.
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  • ShabroutShabrout Joined: Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭
    Misinformation is strong in some people.
    Online lag , so we have to adjust links timing ? really ? Like the inputs before and after a link had a better connection maybe ?
  • metallicabandmetallicaband DP & A TELEPORT ?!! Joined: Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭✭
    You make it sound like offline comp is the spawn of satan. Sorry if I offended your rank.






    Who said I experienced lag?


    I don't get this need to defend online play when it obviously doesn't compare to playing and having an offline scene, saying it's just as viable because solid connections and green bars minimize lag whereas in offline play there is no lag. You can get away with a lot of dumb stuff online, and you can't play proper footsies or frame traps since the reaction time is delayed by 2-4 frames; you end up throwing out normals in anticipation as oppose to reaction. You have to readjust the timing on links (a very bad thing if you're planning to play at a offline major) and make pre-emptive movements to compensate for inputs coming out a couple frames late. You can't tell me there wasn't a time where you pressed :lp: + :lk: and it didn't tech a throw, or you had a magic pixel left and you did Ultra on wakeup to avoid the chip only for it not to come out.



    If you enjoy playing online, then good for you, but like I said, you can't get a concrete basis for the tiers and matchups by strictly playing in that environment, not when you can't react when you want, everyone's playing autopilot, and nobody's punishing you for the mistakes you make.

    Are you on crack?

    This is what you said:

    "You're not going to learn anything playing online period."

    That is, very pure and simple, BULLSHIT.

    You can learn a LOT of things online, specially if you live in a country with excellent networks, 1 frame = 16.6 ms, in Japan the local pings are usually in the 5 or 6ms range which is why they feel like online is pretty much identical to playing offline. Good internet connections aren't exclusive to Japan, many people around the world can play against local competition with less than 1 frame of lag.

    You can anti air, play footsies, frame trap, tech throws and punish shit online. I'm not defending online gaming or saying it's the exact same as offline, you're the one who's being ignorant and straight out say it's completely useless either because you have access to poor connections or you like to have that as an excuse for losing often online.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Misinformation is strong in some people.
    Online lag , so we have to adjust links timing ? really ? Like the inputs before and after a link had a better connection maybe ?

    Actually yes, your internet connection doesn't stay exactly the same constantly. It fluxuates constantly to a small degree even with the best internet you get 1-2ms variation on ping. So from one input to the next your timing can change slightly. Generally though any difference less than 5ms is not noticeable.

    1ms = 0.06 frames.

    Functionally speaking any connection below 15ms is nearly as good as offline. Most GOOD monitors have between 2ms and 7ms response time on their own.

    A 15ms - 30ms connection is more than good enough to practice and learn and actually gain knowledge. Basically if you have cable and you play against anyone in your own state you are fine. Which is one of the reasons Japan is able to play online so perfectly, their whole country is slightly smaller than California.
    Are you on crack?

    This is what you said:

    "You're not going to learn anything playing online period."

    That is, very pure and simple, BULLSHIT.

    You can learn a LOT of things online, specially if you live in a country with excellent networks, 1 frame = 16.6 ms, in Japan the local pings are usually in the 5 or 6ms range which is why they feel like online is pretty much identical to playing offline. Good internet connections aren't exclusive to Japan, many people around the world can play against local competition with less than 1 frame of lag.

    You can anti air, play footsies, frame trap, tech throws and punish shit online. I'm not defending online gaming or saying it's the exact same as offline, you're the one who's being ignorant and straight out say it's completely useless either because you have access to poor connections or you like to have that as an excuse for losing often online.

    It's been about 8 years since my last LAN party. But when I did go to lans our connection was 4-6ms. I can't imagine that Japan's internet is faster than a direct connection to another computer even with the improvements in technology in the last 8 years. That said, Japan has great net and the whole country is small as I said earlier.
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  • ShabroutShabrout Joined: Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭
    Yes Eternal, but seriously there's no point to argue here. People throw 1 frames link everyday online, and as far as I know, training room have no lag so no one ever learn to "delay their link" on demand. I have a harder time when I switch from PC to PS3 than Off / Online.
    The only bad thing with online play is bad habits, because of the punishment delay. This delay is the point.
    Random specials with some pushback and thin punish window get used for free there.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭
    It's just a ton of bullshit. Online is not the same as offline. True.

    It is still possible to apply 95% of your ability online, in spite of minor differences in timing. And like our buddy said above, many people often pull off 1 frame links as well as gnarly frame traps online. I see them all the time.
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  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,313 ✭✭✭✭
    PS3 over heating causes way more lag than your typical online lag.

    Delay or slow down is not nearly as bad as packet loss. People need to open their ports and stop playing behind 50 routers

    At least when the PS3 slows down both players always experience the penalty and not just one.
  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,156
    Lol Bison footsies. Hit dat mk hk, youse a masta
  • M.D.M.D. digs older chicks Joined: Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭
    Are you on crack?

    This is what you said:

    "You're not going to learn anything playing online period."

    That is, very pure and simple, BULLSHIT.

    You can learn a LOT of things online, specially if you live in a country with excellent networks, 1 frame = 16.6 ms, in Japan the local pings are usually in the 5 or 6ms range which is why they feel like online is pretty much identical to playing offline. Good internet connections aren't exclusive to Japan, many people around the world can play against local competition with less than 1 frame of lag.

    You can anti air, play footsies, frame trap, tech throws and punish shit online. I'm not defending online gaming or saying it's the exact same as offline, you're the one who's being ignorant and straight out say it's completely useless either because you have access to poor connections or you like to have that as an excuse for losing often online.


    Now who's generalizing? And for the record, you are defending online play, with great vengeance and furious anger.

    So online is not completely useless. Fine, I'll admit that I was wrong. Still, connection quality aside, the competition is very limited, and doesn't come close to the players you'd fight at a weekly or major. I wouldn't recommend it for matchup experience.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now who's generalizing? And for the record, you are defending online play, with great vengeance and furious anger.

    So online is not completely useless. Fine, I'll admit that I was wrong. Still, connection quality aside, the competition is very limited, and doesn't come close to the players you'd fight at a weekly or major. I wouldn't recommend it for matchup experience.

    Many of the players you'd find at a weekly or major regularly play online. Latif, PR Rog, iPeru, Justin Wong, Mike Ross, OnlineTony, Poongko, Xian, ect ect. They all regularly play ranked or host endless lobbies or both. While you might not find players like them all the time, it isn't that the competition is limited it is that the competition is too broad. You don't always play people at your skill level or higher or play them often enough when you do.
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  • PsychocultPsychocult Joined: Posts: 50
    Some Observations:

    You can learn a lot online.

    Yes, Japanese connections (PSN was my only experience) are generally better, so is the general online skill level.

    For the record, the Arcade Version at the game centers felt a frame faster than the PS3 version as far as input latency, I.e. PS3 seemed slower and my timing always had to adjust just a little when going from home to out in town.

    Japanese players in general are better than us in general.

    Not everyone has the luxury of an offline scene.

    I've played some great people here in the states online (props go out especially to EXO-GEN!)

    I try to remember the names of lag-abusers, random Blankas, and avoid accordingly.

    Online is better than playing the CPU, in any event, and seems to be taken for granted too much, in that context.

    Some days are better than others for connections.
  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 14,247 ✭✭✭✭✭
    divekicks are stupid in every capcom game. this is a solid rule to go by. they might potentially not be stupid in Divekick though.
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  • ProjectjusticeProjectjustice Sonic Boom! Joined: Posts: 1,813 ✭✭
    Some Observations:

    You can learn a lot online.

    Yes, Japanese connections (PSN was my only experience) are generally better, so is the general online skill level.

    For the record, the Arcade Version at the game centers felt a frame faster than the PS3 version as far as input latency, I.e. PS3 seemed slower and my timing always had to adjust just a little when going from home to out in town.

    Japanese players in general are better than us in general.

    Not everyone has the luxury of an offline scene.

    I've played some great people here in the states online (props go out especially to EXO-GEN!)

    I try to remember the names of lag-abusers, random Blankas, and avoid accordingly.

    Online is better than playing the CPU, in any event, and seems to be taken for granted too much, in that context.

    Some days are better than others for connections.

    Its a known fact that the PS3 version has a 1 frame input lag.
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  • BlueberryBlueberry Joined: Posts: 589 ✭✭
    Online is Ok to have fun, but is not really the same as playing offline. Wiff punishing is hard, so you slowly stop doing it alltogether. The number of times i've got caught after Ken wiffing HP srk instead of him eating a full puinish because of lag is pretty big...
    I need a few days to reajust playing offline before a tourney or i get smacked in the pools like a total scrub because online made me forget how to play the game.
    I
  • C3TNC3TN Joined: Posts: 52
    Online is Ok to have fun, but is not really the same as playing offline. Wiff punishing is hard, so you slowly stop doing it alltogether. The number of times i've got caught after Ken wiffing HP srk instead of him eating a full puinish because of lag is pretty big...
    I need a few days to reajust playing offline before a tourney or i get smacked in the pools like a total scrub because online made me forget how to play the game.
    I
    If you can't punish whiffed shoryuken online, then you just suck. Online is pretty good practice like if you can anti air or whiff punish online then it's very easy offline.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,254 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Online is pretty good practice like if you can anti air or whiff punish online then it's very easy offline.
    You actually have to change your timing when switching between online and offline depending on how bad the opponents' connections were. In the same example, compensating for around 6 to 7f of lag means that meaty punishes on something like Ken's HP DP will actually cause a reset instead of a proper punish if you do it with the same timing offline.
  • C3TNC3TN Joined: Posts: 52
    You actually have to change your timing when switching between online and offline depending on how bad the opponents' connections were. In the same example, compensating for around 6 to 7f of lag means that meaty punishes on something like Ken's HP DP will actually cause a reset instead of a proper punish if you do it with the same timing offline.
    6-7f lag is just waaaay too much.
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭
    When you're playing on a good green bar connection, you are getting 4-7f of lag. It's noticable but barely (especially because it fluctuates.)

    Playing on a average yellow bar connection is terrible. Thats when moves start taking half a second to come out after pressing something, the equivalent of 30f.
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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭✭
    Shoryuken input changed from:
    (any forward)(any down)(any forward)
    to
    (any forward)(any down)(downforward)
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  • BlueberryBlueberry Joined: Posts: 589 ✭✭
    I'm still hoping for that rematch button in 1v1 endless rooms.
    If you can't punish whiffed shoryuken online, then you just suck. Online is pretty good practice like if you can anti air or whiff punish online then it's very easy offline.

    Try punishung lp dp on any yellow connection. Good luck.
  • MafamaticksMafamaticks Where'd ya life go? Joined: Posts: 691 ✭✭
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭
  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭
    its actually quite easy to punish lp dp on yellow connections.
    Power is nothing without skill
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  • C3TNC3TN Joined: Posts: 52
    Yeah, what the fuck? Oni got pretty bs lp. shoryuken though...
  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭
    I can punish that easily tbh.+
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  • Axl_m4sterAxl_m4ster This is how I look like, don't make fun Joined: Posts: 2,423
    Hang on a second, this is a fallacy. One thing is for a character to have a certain skill. The other thing is for a character's playstyle to rely heavily on it. Dive kicks are a safe, powerful tool which is used and abused by every character that is capable of doing it. The same does not apply to fireballs and dragon punches.

    Dive kicks are certainly a troublesome dynamic to deal with. My biggest issue however is the following: every time a character performs a powerful move that he can not be punished for attempting, and he can do it ceaselessly, then there is a problem.

    Dive kicks are easily abused. They cross up, start massive combos ( which end in ultras), keep up a very strong pressure and are overwhelmingly safe on block and hard to counter.

    That's the problem. We have a dominant move that a character's entire offense can be built around with little to no risk. Like Akuma's demon flip pressure, Cammy/Rufus/SethYun's dive kicks....

    So yeah. They're kind of imbalanced.
    pretty much this^

    seth's and cammy's and rufus's dive kicks are sincerly the worst things to deal with
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  • Laughter 7Laughter 7 Joined: Posts: 527
    I don't want to see any changes. V. 2012 is about as balanced as we can hope for.
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