how to use counterhits?

hellbox9hellbox9 Joined: Posts: 302
So I understand the effectiveness of counter hits (off of frame traps), especially with the combo opportunities offered by that extra frame from a CH.

However, I'm trying to figure out how to even approach using them to their maximum potential.

Is it possible to react to the counter hit, then choose the appropriate combo? Even with the extra frame, thats still only 4-5 60ths of a second to react, comprehend, then execute the appropriate combo, which seems unrealistic.

Do you have to commit to the counter hit setup, and count on a good read that your opponent is gonna hit buttons in order to get the max damage combo?

For example, I'm a sagat player, our go-to frame trap is cr lk to cr. mp (which works well bc our blockstring starts with cr lk, and if its blocked, its easy to transition to frame trap cr. mp).

For instance, I could commit to every time i go for that canceling the CH cr. mp into low ts, which would be safe on block and do a little more damage on hit.

However, I'd rather extend the combo/net a knockdown rather than doing a fireball's worth of extra damage.

Any help on how to get more out of counterhits???

Comments

  • Mr. StrangeMr. Strange Joined: Posts: 52
    Here's some fun data:

    For reacting to stimulus (press a button when a light flashes) humans can get around 90ms reaction times. Average might be closer to 150ms, but a really twitchy hand can pretty readily get you into the 100ms range.

    For making a selection (press button 1 if the light moves left, press button 1 if the light moves right) humans can get around 250ms reaction times. Averages probably around 350-450ms.

    So from a strictly physical point of view - you are correct that it is NOT reasonable to comprehend and react during a counterhit. However, you can get a similar effect from training your ear to react (simple reaction) to audio stimulus from the game. Capcom games are usually really good about providing a "block" sound which registers at a very different frequently from other sounds - so you can practice executing your longer combos after CH, and stop your input / switch to block if you hear that sound.

    The other option is to simply guess - avoid following up your CH a few times and then go for the full combo when your opponent isn't expecting it. Lots of great moments come from jedi mind-tricks like this which are much more about psychology than reaction speed.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭✭
    Counterhit options are normally combined with a sequence of attacks that you can use to hit confirm. An example would be Ryu's cr.mp. It's impossible to a hit or counterhit with a single cr.mp and cancel it into a special move, but you can link it into his cr.mp or cr.mk, which gives you time to hit confirm, and lead to a damaging combo.

    So normally you link another attack after your counterhit move, and confirm it into a combo.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,253 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It depends on the character and situation. You also need to know your frame data. Counter-hits usually score +2/3 for medium/hard moves and +1 for light moves, but this is not a universal rule so you actually have to test each move individually.

    Even though he some nice frame traps, Sagat doesn't really get that much from counter-hits. In the situation you describe, there's not really much you can get from the CH cr.mp. It's +4 on hit, so on CH it should be +6, or +7 if you're lucky (test it in Training Mode). If you're close enough and can confirm the CH, you can do another cr.mp into low TS, which is better than just cancelling into low TS directly.

    In Vanilla, Mago used to sometimes hit-confirm with a single cr.mp into cr.lp xx TU, so confirming a CH shouldn't be too hard. But if you're struggling then one way to make the confirm easier (at the expense of maybe 1f) is to cancel into angry scar. This should give you more than enough time to confirm the CH and perform a follow-up.

    If you can score a meaty CH cr.mp, you can maybe make the frame advantage go up to +8 or +9. This opens up a link into cr.hp or cr.hk for a hard knockdown.

    In any case, the scenario you describe is actually on of Sagat's main hit-confirms:
    cr.lk, cr.mp, cr.lp xx (TU on hit) / (low TS on block)

    While learning to spot the CH can be beneficial, it's more important to confirm the actual hit and then execute the best follow-up. (eg. TU on hit, low TS, TK or overhead on block)
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