"I am the lightning, the rain transformed..." — Raiden Thread

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Comments

  • ShottanuhmisShottanuhmis Joined: Posts: 337
    Good. Sounds like a good chunk of the rest of the cast.

    But,Raiden is now a high risk/high reward character like he should have been in the first place. He's not a completely useless character just because his F.throw is changed. To me,Raiden is now a character that has to patiently pick his moments. That parry has it's use in setting up mind games and can still net you a level 1. Raiden can still build decent meter,especially since his combos aren't really anything spectacular to input. No offense,but it just sounds like some of you guys are just mad now that his match ups have gotten only slightly more difficult. A lot of Raiden players seemed to base their whole game around that throw >combo/level 1 instead of figuring out his yomi and safe set ups. And I mean a character is gonna have bad match ups no matter what. That's FGs for ya.

    I hear what your saying about bad matchups but this is absurd he is getting abused. Now in 2v2 he still has a ton of options but don't sit here and tell me that his throw combo did not drastically hurt him. Raiden is not scrub kratos that literally has instant gap closers for air and ground. What I'm trying to point out is if his major gap closer is now pretty useless because it won't net him a combo on a airborn opponent and pushes then a safe distance away. Potentially speaking a cleaver person can dodge it completely. Also tossing out a level 2 because you have no safe method Anymore is stupid. It's not like prapras skateboard good any time. I've seen sweet tooth players bomb camp literally place a bomb down jump and down box over there bomb an entire game. Even if you hit them you eating the bomb and on hit they get a guaranteed level 1. If you want to be ballsy might as well block everything he does because who cares if you get grabbed you lose what 30 AP? The threat is completely gone. If that air meat cleaver touches you guaranteed level 1. So this simple strategy negates your entire move set. Also off parrying a attack in the air you get nothing and they still get AP. what type of bs is that.
  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,217
    I hear what your saying about bad matchups but this is absurd he is getting abused. Now in 2v2 he still has a ton of options but don't sit here and tell me that his throw combo did not drastically hurt him. Raiden is not scrub kratos that literally has instant gap closers for air and ground. What I'm trying to point out is if his major gap closer is now pretty useless because it won't net him a combo on a airborn opponent and pushes then a safe distance away. Potentially speaking a cleaver person can dodge it completely. Also tossing out a level 2 because you have no safe method Anymore is stupid. It's not like prapras skateboard good any time. I've seen sweet tooth players bomb camp literally place a bomb down jump and down box over there bomb an entire game. Even if you hit them you eating the bomb and on hit they get a guaranteed level 1. If you want to be ballsy might as well block everything he does because who cares if you get grabbed you lose what 30 AP? The threat is completely gone. If that air meat cleaver touches you guaranteed level 1. So this simple strategy negates your entire move set. Also off parrying a attack in the air you get nothing and they still get AP. what type of bs is that.


    This is why nobody needed to base their game around that throw. A lot of Raiden players still aren't utilizing his tools. All you have to do with Raiden is get in once. ONCE to start his pressure and mix up game. He still has several ways to crumple an opponent into a combo. The designers wouldn't have just given him a bunch of other tools if Raiden was supposed to be played as simple as throw into whatever. Superbot even said that the grab into level 1 set up was a mistake. And I can't believe you're comparing Raiden's level 2 to Parappa's. Parappa's can be dodged and counter supered and it'll only net like 1 kill each for however many characters are on screen. Raiden's level 2,even if you miss the initial freeze at the start you can just keep pressing circle to keep sending them out,the super even lasts long enough to tag them again after they respawn. So,even if someone tried to counter super Raiden in that state they'll just eat another shockwave and be frozen and thus killed again. If you're constantly getting zoned by people then learn their patterns and make reads on them. No one zoning character in this game is impossible to get around.
    Welcome to the internet. God help you if you have an opinion.

    I should start keeping written letters in sealed envelopes when I go to tournaments. If i get bodied, I give them one, and when they open it up it says "fuk u"

  • ShottanuhmisShottanuhmis Joined: Posts: 337
    This is why nobody needed to base their game around that throw. A lot of Raiden players still aren't utilizing his tools. All you have to do with Raiden is get in once. ONCE to start his pressure and mix up game. He still has several ways to crumple an opponent into a combo. The designers wouldn't have just given him a bunch of other tools if Raiden was supposed to be played as simple as throw into whatever. Superbot even said that the grab into level 1 set up was a mistake. And I can't believe you're comparing Raiden's level 2 to Parappa's. Parappa's can be dodged and counter supered and it'll only net like 1 kill each for however many characters are on screen. Raiden's level 2,even if you miss the initial freeze at the start you can just keep pressing circle to keep sending them out,the super even lasts long enough to tag them again after they respawn. So,even if someone tried to counter super Raiden in that state they'll just eat another shockwave and be frozen and thus killed again. If you're constantly getting zoned by people then learn their patterns and make reads on them. No one zoning character in this game is impossible to get around.
    Let's look at this a different way. The reason why Raiden was so good before was because he had a million ways to combo into his lvl1 that where all extremely practical. So if you where to roll or throw out a attack obviously the punish would be enormous if you where to camp and slightly mis spaced. The grab would ensure the kill or AP. His game was never solely about the grab but it kept people honest. I would give up 1 hit confirm for the throw combo back. Next he wasn't the only person could could combo off his throw. I understand why raiden gets all the hate dante gets all the respect because of empty box cancel. However this nerf directly took 1/2 of his pressure game away fact. His tools get out spaced by projectiles. So you have to gap close and get strategic get ins. But wait forget the most rape hard raiden button the block ? Lol there is no reason not to block if you land then safely jump away and repeat so what if he chases you. None of his ground options beat block and if you tell him his unblockable I'm going up say your going to have eaten 5 fireballs before it even releases.
  • RavenDSkullRavenDSkull Lost between choices. Joined: Posts: 34
    Just a thought: isn't Raiden supposed to be a rushdown character?

    IMHO, a rushdown character with a KC of a throw is much like a AE character that can combo ultra of a throw anywhere on screen. It's just too strong.

    And about Dante. He doesn't have the get in options Raiden has. Seriously, Dante has to be so on point, and even so, he's still worse all around then other close combat characters.

    Again, IMHO. Not trying to say I can't be wrong.


    Sent from my Mind using my Fingers
    AE2012: Sagat / Yun
    PAS: Dante

    Repping Brasil here.
  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,217
    No body else in this game could combo off of a throw to the same extent that Raiden could. And all the other character's that can level 1 off a throw do it no where near as brain dead as it was with Raiden. You're basically complaining about having to rushdown with a rushdown character now. And Raiden still has several ways to combo into his level one. Technically he still has all the same ways he did before. He just doesn't have the throw set up.
    Welcome to the internet. God help you if you have an opinion.

    I should start keeping written letters in sealed envelopes when I go to tournaments. If i get bodied, I give them one, and when they open it up it says "fuk u"

  • ShottanuhmisShottanuhmis Joined: Posts: 337
    L
    No body else in this game could combo off of a throw to the same extent that Raiden could. And all the other character's that can level 1 off a throw do it no where near as brain dead as it was with Raiden. You're basically complaining about having to rushdown with a rushdown character now. And Raiden still has several ways to combo into his level one. Technically he still has all the same ways he did before. He just doesn't have the throw set up.
    The throw is what made his rushdown options scary. If your playing people that don't block effectively or don't camp well lol Raiden is exactly the same straight busted. Also I've seen some people struggle to combo off the throw lol. Quote "the link was so tight" lol . So it was not even being utilized by everyone really. Also in a way it was like a balance for him having no projectiles. Even dante has like 2 projectiles. Also to truly understand this short coming you can't play raiden vs raiden you need to play like evil cole vs raiden I will fight any raiden that wants to test it out. Is it impossible no but it is 97% harder due to these nerfs. I really would like to play fool infection
  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,217
    L
    The throw is what made his rushdown options scary. If your playing people that don't block effectively or don't camp well lol Raiden is exactly the same straight busted.


    Saying a character is just as broken against people that don't know what they're doing/suck. Great logic. I'm just going to stop reading right there now.
    Welcome to the internet. God help you if you have an opinion.

    I should start keeping written letters in sealed envelopes when I go to tournaments. If i get bodied, I give them one, and when they open it up it says "fuk u"

  • RavenDSkullRavenDSkull Lost between choices. Joined: Posts: 34
    Seriously, if Dante is supposed to be on the same level as Raiden because of those projectiles, they need to get buffed. 2 or j.2 give very little AP and don't have any hitstun. d.3 or jd.3 are good, but have a slow start up, so they can be avoided or stuffed easily. I really have no idea how they help to keep the pressure on.

    By the way, I don't think E.Cole is balanced at all. He's probably the only one in the game right now that should get a nerf (even though he has bad MUs - Ratchet, beats him in zoning). Using him as an example of a bad MU is complicated, by that logic.

    A rushdown character should have to get in carefully and, whenever blocked succesfully, be able to apply pressure, not have a near certain kill. Otherwise, how would a balanced character respond to that? Running away forever?
    AE2012: Sagat / Yun
    PAS: Dante

    Repping Brasil here.
  • ShottanuhmisShottanuhmis Joined: Posts: 337
    Seriously, if Dante is supposed to be on the same level as Raiden because of those projectiles, they need to get buffed. 2 or j.2 give very little AP and don't have any hitstun. d.3 or jd.3 are good, but have a slow start up, so they can be avoided or stuffed easily. I really have no idea how they help to keep the pressure on.

    By the way, I don't think E.Cole is balanced at all. He's probably the only one in the game right now that should get a nerf (even though he has bad MUs - Ratchet, beats him in zoning). Using him as an example of a bad MU is complicated, by that logic.

    A rushdown character should have to get in carefully and, whenever blocked succesfully, be able to apply pressure, not have a near certain kill. Otherwise, how would a balanced character respond to that? Running away forever?

    I agree but at the same time. Some characters are just better than others I think that they should have held out on the massive nerf stick till at least all the characters are released. No one knows the highest level a character is going to be played until the game has been out for awhile. Who knows people may discover some unavoidable death combo tech. As for raiden vs Dante I would say its a even match depending on level of gameplay of both people. One counter successful counter dante kills you from zero AP. Raiden would need at least 2 combos 1 to get the meter one for the kill. As for evil cole -__- the man needs a nerf.
  • RavenDSkullRavenDSkull Lost between choices. Joined: Posts: 34
    I agree but at the same time. Some characters are just better than others I think that they should have held out on the massive nerf stick till at least all the characters are released. No one knows the highest level a character is going to be played until the game has been out for awhile. Who knows people may discover some unavoidable death combo tech. As for raiden vs Dante I would say its a even match depending on level of gameplay of both people. One counter successful counter dante kills you from zero AP. Raiden would need at least 2 combos 1 to get the meter one for the kill. As for evil cole -__- the man needs a nerf.

    Well, there's a lot of tech already out for Dante. None that can make him approach faster or remain safer. People have come with ways to capitalize on his every move (such as canceling his 1 chain in d.1 for a little safety on block, and combos out of jd.3) , but his data remains: he's still outclassed in rushdown by Raiden. So yeah, there are characters that are still being discovered, but NOTHING points to a better direction with Dante. He's just a lower-class rushdown character that requires more technical knowledge and better execution while giving less than other less execution-heavy characters.

    As for the nerf, I've seen Raiden struggling more on some MUs now. I STILL think that the possibility to KC out of a throw is waaaay too strong on a rushdown character. On the other hand, I've seen people argue that it could be left some opportunity to combo of said throw. I think that would be okay. But a KC? No way.

    About the Raiden v. Dante MU. I'd say is 5-5, or a little better for Raiden. Yes, if Dante hits Raiden on the floor (and why are you on the floor in the first place), isn't countered (which can be baited) and don't mess up, he can get a kill. Dante does have his air dash and counter, but Raiden has a counter too, a divekick and that jf.3, which covers a lot of ground if needed to escape. The real turn point here is safety. As long as we're talking about blocking, all Raiden has to do is block to either jump or dodge back to a neutral state. Dante? Not so much. He'd still have Raiden on top of him. Raiden's a lot safer than Dante approaching. And that for me puts him in an advantage in this MU.

    And yeah... E.Cole needs a slight nerf. Not a huge one too.
    AE2012: Sagat / Yun
    PAS: Dante

    Repping Brasil here.
  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,217
    Is anybody even taking into account that your opponent has to hit you too? And that you still build decent ap on block strings? With the right spacing, Raiden can stuff out a lot of moves and stay safe. He (and other characters) can also do a neutral hop dodge, which makes you shortly invincible and escaping throws while shortening the recovery on the dodge, enabling you to immediately punish combo wiffed moves on the ground upon landing. Raiden can still be devastating if he touches you, he just has to get in and such Is the rushdown playstyle. I can't think of rushdown characters in other games that have gotten free easy optimized combos off of a normal throw like Raiden had. It just made people play him like a graphler. Just getting in for that tick throw instead of working his way in like a rushdown character is supposed to.
    Welcome to the internet. God help you if you have an opinion.

    I should start keeping written letters in sealed envelopes when I go to tournaments. If i get bodied, I give them one, and when they open it up it says "fuk u"

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