How to find the right timings? (SSF IV AE)

PimpelmannPimpelmann Joined: Posts: 4
Good day Shoryuken community!

First off, I am completly new to fighting games and started a couple of days ago with Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition, since I finally got it during the Steam sale.
Since then I am trying to wrap my mind around all these new terms and mechanics that are part of this game and am very grateful to find so many tutorials and explanations. That made for a warm welcome into this community, so thank you for that.

Now to my problem:
I understand how to read framedata and how combos can be created from such a spreedsheat. BUT: how do you know the timings of the necessery input? How do you know, *when* to press the specific buttons, especially during a combo?

Say, I want to do the following combo: Move 1, Move 2, Move 3, Move 4.
I obviously start with inputing the commands for Move 1, but how do I now when to continue with the inputs for Move 2? And after that, with the inputs for Move 3? Can I get that information from the frame data?

Can you input the next move during the recoveryphase of the first move? During the frame advantage? How much time do I have for the input? And if it really is a certain frame-window, how do you translate that into your practice (because you can't count frames)?

TL;DR:
how do you know, when to input a command during a combo?

Thanks in advance,
Pimpelmann

Comments

  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭
    You input the 2nd move in a combo..
    - For a Link: At any point after the first moves recovery ends and before the remaining hitstun of first move is smaller than the startup of the 2nd move *
    - For a Chain/Cancel: At any time after the first active frame of the first move and before the remaining hitstun of first move is smaller than the startup of the 2nd move
    How big those windows are depends on what you combo into what. Generally, you have plenty of time (and need no timing at all but can just "mash out") for Chains/Cancels and a fairly small window for Links.

    Now, since you can't actually see single frames, that doesn't help too much.
    In practice, it's: "You input a move when it works".
    When does it work? When it combos. When does it combo? You'll have to find out.

    Frame Data tells you which combos are theoretically possible. Then you can look at hitstun/recovery to get an about feel for when to press the next button, but in general it just comes down to: Do it. And then learn the timing by doing it a lot.

    * Exempt from this are "links" after juggles, where you have to wait until the character falls deep enough, eg Juris ExDive>Ultra2

    P.S.: If you're just starting out, Frame Data is a bit much
    P.P.S.: Combos aren't too relevant in SF4, better learn other stuff first (Antiairs, Poking, simple punishes, etc)
    Why.
  • PimpelmannPimpelmann Joined: Posts: 4
    You input the 2nd move in a combo..
    - For a Link: At any point after the first moves recovery ends and before the remaining hitstun of first move is smaller than the startup of the 2nd move *
    - For a Chain/Cancel: At any time after the first active frame of the first move and before the remaining hitstun of first move is smaller than the startup of the 2nd move
    How big those windows are depends on what you combo into what. Generally, you have plenty of time (and need no timing at all but can just "mash out") for Chains/Cancels and a fairly small window for Links.

    Now, since you can't actually see single frames, that doesn't help too much.
    In practice, it's: "You input a move when it works".
    When does it work? When it combos. When does it combo? You'll have to find out.

    Frame Data tells you which combos are theoretically possible. Then you can look at hitstun/recovery to get an about feel for when to press the next button, but in general it just comes down to: Do it. And then learn the timing by doing it a lot.

    * Exempt from this are "links" after juggles, where you have to wait until the character falls deep enough, eg Juris ExDive>Ultra2

    P.S.: If you're just starting out, Frame Data is a bit much
    P.P.S.: Combos aren't too relevant in SF4, better learn other stuff first (Antiairs, Poking, simple punishes, etc)


    Great reply, thank you so much :)

    Just to make sure I got it right:
    if I wanted to do Move 1 with +4 stun advantage, followed by a 3 frame move, I would have have a 2 frame window to input the second move?
    If yes, holyshitthatsshort!

    The reason why I was asking so specifically for frame data, even though I am new, is that I am stuck at some of the trials because I cant get the timing right. If it would have been possible to get the timings from the frame data, I could have analyzed better what to do/what to improve.

    Good to know that I shouldn't worry too much about the combos though. I will try to follow your advice and practice the other stuff you mentioned first.
    And do it a lot ;)

    Thanks again,
    Pimpelmann
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭
    Yep, you got that right. Same +hitstun advantage as startup is a 1f link, and anything above is counting up.
    And yes, most input windows are in the area of 1-3f which is pretty damn short, but most of those are 'natural' timings (just pressing the button not megafast and not megaslow will usually be the ~correct time to hit it); and after you've learned one link, most others fairly quickly tag along because they 'feel' similar.

    Learning combos doesn't hurt and if you have fun with it (or just want to play around with some characters in the trial or training mode), by all means do it!
    But the reasoning is simple: It doesn't help you to have a 20 hit combo that deals 500 damage if you have no way to actually land that damage, because your opponent evades your combo starter (eg if it starts with a jumping hard kick, and your opponent hits you out of the air all the time) - just like brute strength isn't going to win you a real fight if you don't know how to punch, where to punch, and how to break your opponents guard; plus have no idea how to stop his offense ;)

    Learning how to cancel moves is crucial early on (stuff like Ryu's s.HP xx H.Shoryuken), but something like a hitconfirm (where most links are) can wait until you have learned the basics.

    For general execution questions, the sticky here helps a lot btw: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/srk-newbie-saikyo-dojo-execution-guide-read-me.102691/

    P.S. The combos in the trials are bad ;b If you have fun with them, do them, but if you want to learn actually useful combos, better look them up on the net and practice in training mode - where you also have an input display to see what you did wrong.
    Why.
  • donu7donu7 ninjav surprise! Joined: Posts: 532
    Great reply, thank you so much :)

    Just to make sure I got it right:
    if I wanted to do Move 1 with +4 stun advantage, followed by a 3 frame move, I would have have a 2 frame window to input the second move?
    If yes, holyshitthatsshort!

    The reason why I was asking so specifically for frame data, even though I am new, is that I am stuck at some of the trials because I cant get the timing right. If it would have been possible to get the timings from the frame data, I could have analyzed better what to do/what to improve.

    Good to know that I shouldn't worry too much about the combos though. I will try to follow your advice and practice the other stuff you mentioned first.
    And do it a lot ;)

    Thanks again,
    Pimpelmann



    What can make learning combos (and beating combo trials) even harder is that the visual feedback of when you're supposed to continue with your combo can be very different from one character to another. For example, combo-ing with Ken is easy as hell for me. That's because I've been playing Ken since I was in diapers (true story). So, in SF4, I picked up Ryu's combos really quick because his combo timings, and the visual feedback of how to combo with the guy, feel really similar to Ken's. But then I tried Vega's combos and I couldn't do anything and that's because the visual feedback of when his moves connect and when you're supposed to link combos with him is very different from Ken's.

    This is very prevalent in UMVC3. Combo-ing with Zero/Ryu/Akuma is really easy but you get guys like Nova and you feel like you're swimming through mud instead of running through a combo. Shit is CRAZY.

    Like Vulpes said, the best way to learn it is to do the combo over and over and test how to execute the combo. Testing things like long you can delay the next part of a combo and still have it connect and how much space you can have between you and the opponent can really help in learning new combos. Personally, I find that watching Desk helps get me pumped up, but watching REAL combo videos (ie: combo videos showing HOW to perform combos that I can actually pull off myself) also really help because you can actually see what the combo is supposed to look like. Watching combo videos helps you learn the visual feedback of the combo, especially if the combo maker provides the input data as he performs the combo.


    Moral of the story: Youtube that combo shit. It's one of the best tools to learn combos. Also, watching live streams can be a great way as well.
  • PimpelmannPimpelmann Joined: Posts: 4
    Oh wow, you guys here sure are helpful!

    I will try to remember what you said and thanks for the link!

    @Donu7
    Oh yeah, I definitely understand what you are talking about. Some characters that I tried seemed to have timings and a certain rhythm that just make sense to me, while others are just... ugh... what? why? how?

    Youtube is already helping me, VesperArcades videos are amazing.

    It really is mindboggeling to learn sososo much new stuff, but also really fun thanks to all your help.

    Cheers,
    Pimpelmann
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭
    We can also play occasionally if you'd like to, though im EU based so it's probably going to lag terribly :b
    Why.
  • PimpelmannPimpelmann Joined: Posts: 4
    We can also play occasionally if you'd like to, though im EU based so it's probably going to lag terribly :b

    European myself, hooray!
    My GFWL-name is Pimpelmann, as it is here in the forums.

    Looking forward to getting crushed by you.
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