Stagger strings?

ErawanErawan The tiger who swapped his stripes for spotsJoined: Posts: 186
I've seen/heard this term mentioned a few times but don't understand what is meant by it. How is a stagger string different from a block string if at all? Couldn't find it covered in the glossary either. Any help on cluing me in on this would be appreciated.
(Talking about Daigo) "i dont see how someone who is good at SF gets to be a celebrity because i bet theres plenty of people that would beat him that dont go to tournaments, and is he good at the megadrive version or the newer releases for ps3 and 360" - Comment by SpoilerAlert, Kotaku
23 Aug 2011 3:32 AM

Comments

  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭
    Blockstrings are designed to beat mashing.

    Stagger strings are special traps that probably lose to mashing, but are designed to have just enough of a delay for your opponent to flinch and stand up/stop blocking/hit a button. And then you hit them.

    Stagger strings let you get really grimy with offense and expand frame advantage into the future when it shouldn't really matter since you are now technically at neutral. But maybe he already hit the button and you should keep blocking. Oh wait, since you didn't hit a button before and he didn't hit his button, maybe you'll get counterhit if you hit your button now anyway. Keep blocking. Wait, he walked all the way up and hit cr.mp again? Now I'm in the same situation! I'm just gonna jab... why did I just jab into a frame trap?

    That's what stagger strings can do to someone.
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭
    Blockstring = a series of attacks where your opponent's only option is to block, assuming he blocks the first hit. If they try to mash a reversal, they'll either continue to block due to auto block, or they'll stand up, which causes them to get hit by low attacks. It's a very safe way to test how your opponent acts under pressure in certain conditions, as well as creating distance between yourself and your opponent.

    Stagger string, or what I call an attack string = a series of attacks designed to get your opponent to take damage. A good example of this would be frame traps, or even tick throws. Staggering your attack is simply shifting the timing of your attacks to get your opponent to flinch, in order to set them up for a frame trap, reversal bait, or tick throw. An example would be to do a cr.jab, walk forward half a step, and then do another cr.jab.
  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭
    Another really common example of a stagger string is something like Ryu's jab jab walk back cr.mk. If they crouch tech or stand up they get hit. If they reversal DP it will whiff over your cr.mk or you'll block. If they reversal cr.mk you'll get hit.

    People don't want to reversal cr.mk.

    Even something like walk back and forth, then throw, can be really frustrating to deal with if done correctly.

    Stagger strings are how you blow up people who think they can tech throws on reaction (they can't).
    Domination 101 by Seth Killian - The original blueprint for competitive fighting game thought.

    Maj's Footsies Handbook - It's like the Bible, but for Street Fighter.
  • ErawanErawan The tiger who swapped his stripes for spots Joined: Posts: 186
    Ah, very, very interesting. Thank you guys for clearing that up. So it's basically

    2hzqnfd.jpg

    mind games. Breaking up your block strings and putting in pauses to get your opponent to react/hesitate. Pretty awesome!
    (Talking about Daigo) "i dont see how someone who is good at SF gets to be a celebrity because i bet theres plenty of people that would beat him that dont go to tournaments, and is he good at the megadrive version or the newer releases for ps3 and 360" - Comment by SpoilerAlert, Kotaku
    23 Aug 2011 3:32 AM
  • dance robotdance robot Joined: Posts: 58
    Blockstrings are designed to beat mashing.

    Having a little trouble understanding this. I thought block strings were "blocking combos" in the sense that the opponent is stuck in block stun until you're finished. How would they be able to mash anything while in block stun?
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  • ErawanErawan The tiger who swapped his stripes for spots Joined: Posts: 186
    You're right dance robot, they are stuck in block stun until you finish the string if it's a true block string. If there's a frame trap in there, then if they are mashing, your block string will punish them for it. I think it's just an oversight/not fully explained point by Kikuichimonji in this case.
    (Talking about Daigo) "i dont see how someone who is good at SF gets to be a celebrity because i bet theres plenty of people that would beat him that dont go to tournaments, and is he good at the megadrive version or the newer releases for ps3 and 360" - Comment by SpoilerAlert, Kotaku
    23 Aug 2011 3:32 AM
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭
    Having a little trouble understanding this. I thought block strings were "blocking combos" in the sense that the opponent is stuck in block stun until you're finished. How would they be able to mash anything while in block stun?

    That's kind of the point. If they try to mash anything while in block stun, either a) nothing will come out and they'll be forced to block, or b) they stand up to do a move, and they get caught by low attacks. If you try to do a traditional uppercut motion, you have to stand in order to do so, and if your opponent is using a series of low attacks in a block string (such as Seth's cr.lk), then they'll hit you. Some characters can even hit confirm of off cr.lks, such as Bison or Guy.

    Or you simply use a blockstring, and then purposely leave a gap in your attack, which allows your opponent to whiff a reversal, and you punish. Either way, both methods can work to counter mashed reversals.
  • SonicabidSonicabid SNAAAAAAkeeee...? Joined: Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stagger string=basically another term for a frame trap.
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  • dance robotdance robot Joined: Posts: 58
    That's kind of the point. If they try to mash anything while in block stun, either a) nothing will come out and they'll be forced to block, or b) they stand up to do a move, and they get caught by low attacks. If you try to do a traditional uppercut motion, you have to stand in order to do so, and if your opponent is using a series of low attacks in a block string (such as Seth's cr.lk), then they'll hit you. Some characters can even hit confirm of off cr.lks, such as Bison or Guy.

    Or you simply use a blockstring, and then purposely leave a gap in your attack, which allows your opponent to whiff a reversal, and you punish. Either way, both methods can work to counter mashed reversals.

    This is the part I was missing. Thanks. I should have understood because I get caught be this all the time, heh. Ooh, and THAT'S why common BnBs include what had seemed to me like random mixups of high and low!

    mind_blown.gif
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  • PerthoPertho FutharSWAG Joined: Posts: 10,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Where did you hear the term "stagger string"? For the life of me I have never heard anybody address a frame trap by that name. Me thinks that new people are trying to coin shit that already has a name. You can stagger button precess in games with chains to create frame traps. But a "stagger string" is some new nonsense term that we don't really need.
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭
    Stagger string sounds like a string that leads to a stagger/stun :looney:
    Why.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭
    Where did you hear the term "stagger string"? For the life of me I have never heard anybody address a frame trap by that name. Me thinks that new people are trying to coin shit that already has a name. You can stagger button precess in games with chains to create frame traps. But a "stagger string" is some new nonsense term that we don't really need.

    People invent new words all the time. I think people call it a 'stagger string' in order to define a series of attacks that involve minor shifts in timing, or a simple step forward or back in order to cause a reaction in your opponent, which will get caught as a counterhit by your follow-up attack. I like to differentiate it from a frame trap, since there's more character movement involved.

    For example, balrog's cr.lp, cr.mp isn't a traditional frame trap, but it works very well if you take a slight step back after the cr.lp and do it, with a possible hit confirm into a super or extended combo. It also works great to bait out reversals in case they try to throw in an uppercut between light pokes.
  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭
    Having a little trouble understanding this. I thought block strings were "blocking combos" in the sense that the opponent is stuck in block stun until you're finished. How would they be able to mash anything while in block stun?
    Okay, there are two types of blockstrings. "True" blockstrings, which do not allow any mashing since you never leave blockstun. And just regular blockstrings, which have holes. By "beat mashing," I meant mashing cr.lk or cr.lp or throw tech.

    For example, Ryu cr.mp -> cr.mp combos on hit because it's +5 on hit, but only +2 on block. That means that cr.mp -> cr.mp isn't a true blockstring. However, it is a very good frame trap.

    If people know you're going to do a strong frame trap or throw, they'll just delayed crouch throw and you have no mixup. Either they block your cr.mp or tech your throw. This is what led to "Street Fighter 4 has no mixups" arguments in Vanilla. But if you delay your cr.mp, sometimes by visibly standing up and then crouching again, you give up your frame advantage but can catch their throw tech.

    In SF4 the standing up to do uppercut thing doesn't actually matter since you can use the crouching :df::d::df: shortcut for uppercuts to block true blockstring lows while not standing up. Not that chained cr.lk's won't ever catch people, but it's not really a hard counter to mashing.
    Domination 101 by Seth Killian - The original blueprint for competitive fighting game thought.

    Maj's Footsies Handbook - It's like the Bible, but for Street Fighter.
  • mapleleafs791mapleleafs791 Blockstring.com Joined: Posts: 802 ✭✭✭
    It depends on the string.

    jab jab. walk back a frame is a good way to bait reversals and see how your opponent responds to potential tic throws
    a. they wiff a stand throw = they stand tech and you can punish that habit
    b. they wiff a low short = if its early they mash crouch tech if its delayed they delay crouch tech. punish accordingly
    c. if nothing comes out start throwing more as they wont press buttons unless you make them
    d. if they reversal you know they mash and you get a free punish

    Other chars w/ moves that move you forward [SPS for ryu, stomach blow for cody] you can jab jab, walk back, SPS/Stomach blow to keep pressure up and make the same read as above.

    Then you have jab jab, walk forward jab which depending on frame data can catch mashing or can catch delayed teching as if you see someone walk towards you you want to teck

    Also you have jab jab pause jab. for simple reversal baiting

    This is all heavily simplified but i think it catches the gist of it [SF4 player so thats the only game i have insight into]
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭
    Okay, there are two types of blockstrings. "True" blockstrings, which do not allow any mashing since you never leave blockstun. And just regular blockstrings, which have holes. By "beat mashing," I meant mashing cr.lk or cr.lp or throw tech.

    I usually just call the first example a block string, and the second example an attack string.
  • dance robotdance robot Joined: Posts: 58
    "True" blockstrings, which do not allow any mashing since you never leave blockstun. And just regular blockstrings, which have holes. By "beat mashing," I meant mashing cr.lk or cr.lp or throw tech.

    I thought these were called frame traps.
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  • ErawanErawan The tiger who swapped his stripes for spots Joined: Posts: 186
    I believe it depends on how big the gap/hole is. If it's only a couple of frames, so their move can only start up/before it becomes active, then it's a frame trap. If it's a bigger hole, then it's what Kikuichimonji refers to as a "regular blockstring". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Adon's cr.LP cr.LP JK would be a good example of a regular block string - the JK leaves a fairly sizeable hole so will catch most normals and any throw techs, but it will get stuffed by shoryukens :( (and certainly more).
    (Talking about Daigo) "i dont see how someone who is good at SF gets to be a celebrity because i bet theres plenty of people that would beat him that dont go to tournaments, and is he good at the megadrive version or the newer releases for ps3 and 360" - Comment by SpoilerAlert, Kotaku
    23 Aug 2011 3:32 AM
  • dance robotdance robot Joined: Posts: 58
    Hm. Yeah, I'm not trying to be contrary here, just trying to understand. I've heard even large gaps (> 4 frames) referred to as frame traps, but maybe it all just comes down to different uses of lingo.
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  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭
    It mostly comes down to intention.

    A frame trap is when you intentionally leave a gap in your pressure string to get a counterhit into combo.
    An 'untrue' blockstring happens when you run a bnb to hitconfirm, it's blocked, and your whatever-continuation has holes in it - here you'd rather not have the gap.

    It's mostly a matter of perspective due to character archetypes and the risk/reward from the situations where it applies.

    1) Cody does c.LP>c.LP, c.HP: c.LP is +6 on hit, c.HP 7f startup (1f gap frametrap), c.HP counterhit can be linked into U2 - He deliberately does this to kill you, the purpose of the string is to link into the U2 on CH, he gains a damnload if it works (500+ damage)
    2) Dictator does c.LK>c.LK xx L.Scissors: c.LK is +1 on block, c.LK 3f startup ("2f gap frametrap"), c.LK is going to cancel into L.Scissors - He does the string to chip you and push you away into his strong midrange, he gains very little from the frametrap succeeding (90 damage or so), he'd rather have the LKs being a true blockstring so he can safely chip away without fearing reversals

    Basically a frametrap is a deliberate gamble that can net you a huge gain, while an untrue blockstring is an attack string where you're angry your attacks don't have sufficient blockstun to keep you safe.
    The difference becomes mostly clear if you look at which characters utilize either (Cody, Cammy want to be in your face: Frametraps // Bison, Rose [c.MP xx Spiral] want to push the opponent out of their face while dealing some chip damage: Untrue Blockstrings)
    Untrue Blockstrings are technically frametraps, but you don't really want them to be, because the gambles aren't in your favour (netting 100 rather than 500 dmg if they succeed while still carrying the risk of getting reversal'd).
    Why.
  • dance robotdance robot Joined: Posts: 58

    Thanks, Vulpes, that's good info. Both frame traps and "untrue" block strings lose to invincible reversals, right, so it's never safe to do this kind of stuff on a character like, Ryu? Although I guess you could pretend like you don't know their SRK beats your frame trap, then block during the gap instead of continuing and punish their whiffed SRK.
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks, Vulpes, that's good info. Both frame traps and "untrue" block strings lose to invincible reversals, right, so it's never safe to do this kind of stuff on a character like, Ryu? Although I guess you could pretend like you don't know their SRK beats your frame trap, then block during the gap instead of continuing and punish their whiffed SRK.

    Yes. But then again, rarely do high level players constantly mash reversals when they're caught in a block string. They might do it once or twice to scare you from attempting any frame traps or tick throws, but it's not a reliable strategy to use time after time. They're more likely to do reversals when they're caught in a combo, preferably at a point where there's a difficult link, in order to punish you if you mess up the combo.

    And yes, you could intentionally just leave gaps in your attack and simply block to bait out the reversal. But if they don't do a reversal, they can simply push you out with cr.lks. Now we playing some street fighter.

    Blockstrings > mashing.
    Frame traps/stagger strings > crouch techs (if timed properly)
    Mashing > frame traps and stagger strings
    Leaving a gap in your attack string > reversal moves.
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