How is tech discovered?

BadHakanBadHakan Joined: Posts: 38
I am talking about SSF4 mainly. Anyway, do people just try out random stuff and hope for the best or what ?

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  • KawwKaww ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ Joined: Posts: 508 ✭✭
    Mad scientists go to the lab and make scary shit
  • mapleleafs791mapleleafs791 Blockstring.com Joined: Posts: 781 ✭✭✭
    training mode and alot of time. some stuff is easy [ex i figured out the rufus forward throw double dash dive kick setups on my own very fast when i was fucking around with rufus but setups like unblockable take alot more time and testing]

    I feel you need to realize how other peoples reversals work and your position.
    Ex vs ryu if i do a time attack im looking to hit around the center point so srk's wiff.
    or for reversals i need to be hitting around the same point but its much stricter.
    where as vs chuns ex SBK you need to have a true safe jump as you cant abuse trajectory

    Then you can just test for safe jumps of or setups starting with holding up forward and seeing what happens and if it isnt automatic you can delay 1 frame, 2 frames etc till you find what you want

    same idea for meaties and alot of setups
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  • Trouble BrewingTrouble Brewing Salty about Ultra Joined: Posts: 4,474 mod
    It runs the gambit from randomly at casuals to hardcore training mode experimentation.
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  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭
    I haven't come up with much of my own stuff, but for stuff that I have:

    - Seeing something in a replay (alternatively, remembering something from a game) that was unexpected and then trying to recreate it (this is basically the number one source of all discovered tech)
    - Trying to modify existing set ups
    - Coming across something while free styling in training mode
    - Just trying shit over and over until you find something that works (generally how people come up with counters to set ups)
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  • KrackatoaKrackatoa Ensaikyopedia Trolldanica. Joined: Posts: 2,084
    An understanding of the game's engine and character frame data will usually give you enough to know where to look.
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  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭
    I am talking about SSF4 mainly. Anyway, do people just try out random stuff and hope for the best or what ?
    Absolutely brand new tech (for example, the fireball FADC ultra unblockables in Vanilla SF4) usually comes from weird things happening in games. People do a meaty fireball, do an ultra, and then the other player notes "wait, I couldn't block that!" And then they try to replicate it. Same thing with Cammy's uncrouchable hooligan throws probably.

    Some stuff comes from directly trying to counter options. You get sick of seeing people teleport away from you, and you start thinking of ways to beat it.

    The first person to come up with option select sweep was probably a genius. Taking the same principle and applying it to other characters is pretty obvious at that point. And then once you realize why OS sweep works, you can start messing around with other OS's abusing the hitstop mechanic.
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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Most of the tech I discover stems from me testing out some other stuff then noticing something strange/interesting. Other times it's from studying frame data and the game engine (including existing tech) and putting things together in a way that benefits the player. Mostly it's a combination of both.

    I discovered a new type of OS today (maybe some people already knew about it) - options that only come out on hit or whiff. I was checking the spacing associated with some of Ryu's moves after he connects them. One of the moves that leaves you furthest from the opponent is close st.mk. So I decided to check if close st.mk, charge FA would leave you far enough away from the opponent so that their reversal DP whiffed completely. I recorded that dummy performing the setup, but I then noticed that if the close st.mk was blocked, the Focus Attack would not come out. It would only come out on hit, or whiff. This led me to believe that there was probably a significant difference in the number of impact freeze frames on hit and block, which is quite unusual for this game.

    That's pretty interesting, but is it useful? Applying new knowledge can sometimes be just as hard, if not, harder than discovering it. First step is to figure out a simple Proof of Concept. I figured that if the OS only comes out on hit or whiff (still have to examine this in more detail), you could use it for guaranteed chip kills. eg. Ryu has full super after a forward throw and the opponent has slightly more health than would allow for a chip kill. Ryu can now perform a meaty close st.mk followed immediately by super. If the opponent blocks, the super won't come out and you won't waste meter. If the opponent gets hit, the super will come out and they will have to eat it unless they have an invincible reversal capable of beating or avoiding the super. Obviously the opponent can backdash or reversal, but this is just a small proof of concept. Next step, figure out what other moves in the game have this property and try to come up with ways to use it in a real match.

    And of course, I still have to go back and check the stuff I originally set out to confirm (if it's possible to use close st.mp to space yourself so that reversal DPs can be avoided).
  • GordonsBeardGordonsBeard QCF+P Bad Stoned Joined: Posts: 379
    It runs the gambit from randomly at casuals to hardcore training mode experimentation.
    Really it's just this to different degrees.
    When you're playing casuals don't be afraid to do a lot of stupid things and try stuff you've never attempted. There is no master "combo list" or "setup list" that will ever cover every combo, so there is always new shit to be found out. Look at the recent string of unblockables we've discovered. Up until now people have just assumed these vague crossups were really tricky - now we know for certain this is an actual bug, and this years after release.

    Just try stuff, try stuff you're sure doesn't work just to confirm it. If you wanna dig into the meat and potatoes you can start looking up frame data and trying to construct combos based off just that. There is a fun site called WAMO (what are my options) that will show you exactly what you can do when you block or hit with a certain move - that might help you explore some more options.
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