Is Virtua Fighter the deepest fighting game?

DstarDstar Joined: Posts: 30
I hear that the VF series has always been the most technical and deep of fighters (at least the 3d fighters) I was wondering if i could get some objective opinions on this matter. How does it compare to tekken, soul calibur and doa?

I don't really play 3d fighters that much but here is my view. VF5 has some tricky execution but so does tekken 6/tt2 and soul calibur 5. And whilst VF5 may be complex, soul calibur and tekken are also complex in their own way, and it is impossible to say which is deeper.

I think in terms of complexity and execution DOA must come last. That is an uneducated opinion, based on that i found execution very easy and hearsay that DOA is too much like rock paper scissors.

Anyway, I think all those games are great in their own ways. Its just been bugging me when i read forums or reviews that say VF is soooo technical and complex. What is that founded on? Is it true? How does it compare to the other fighters? Thanks in advance for replies

Comments

  • CrosCros Joined: Posts: 13
    It depends on opinions and definitions.

    "Deep", "complex", and "technical", in relation to fighting games, are all words/concepts people think they understand, but rarely agree about. In the discussions/arguements I've seen about these ideas, the people involved have had some drastically different views on what they mean.

    If at some point there are accepted criteria for what makes a game deep/complex/technical, maybe then you can get a (reasonably) fair and unbiased answer (or at the least a good discussion). But until then, you stand a better chance of getting people arguing about opinions.
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    The thing about VF is, the execution requirements are overrated while the reaction aspect of the game is underrated, and this people have the hardest time understanding the game. Execution-wise you have Akira's 1f Knee, Jacky's Iaigeri kick, Kage's SRK air combos, On-Hit moves/combos with various characters and stagger recovery.

    The reaction part is what's lost on a lot of people and that's HOW to react on defense against P->Mid/Throw and gain back the advantage or even keeping the advantage past the average 1-2 hit exchanges.

    Looking at the text book answers on defense against P->Mid/Throw is the easiest way to look at the game, at least for me. J

    When you block P you G ~:d:. you don't have to guess against the Mid/Throw mixup anymore, and you pur the risk back on to the aggressor who has to use a Delayed Throw or low attack to beat the FG.

    Same deal when you get hit with P, but now you can't simply Fuzzy, you have to Crouch Dash Fuzzy Guard. Execution wise this is easy as CDFG is :df::df: G . But reacting fast enough with the crouch dash to avoid the Throw is a lot harder since you probably aren't expecting to get hit and just about to do something and the then BAM, you got hit with the P->Throw setup, because again you didn't react with the simple double taps fast enough.

    Reacting to the Counter-Hit is a lot easier in my opinion as there is a yellow flash accompanied by water effects and a splash sound. In this state you can't duck the throw so you must use a Two Choice OS of either TEG (Throw-Escape Guard) or ETE (Evade Throw Escape). Execution requirements of TEG is tap P+G, then let go of P while still holding G as this buffers a Guard inside the Throw Escape. ETE is simply tap :u: or :d: P+G. The downside is you only get 1 TE as opposed to 1-4 TEs in VF5/5R and the 4 series.

    From ETE you have more options exauss the opponent waited a beat and delayed the throw or attack and now you are at Failed Evade and need to cover yourself from that. So now you have ETEG which is a combination of ETE and TEG. The command is Up/Down, P+G, release P while stil holding G. This isn't as powerful due to FS having 1TE option.

    So you get into the Evade Dash Cancels which is a big part of the 5 series so you get into stuff like ECDTEG, ECDGTE, EDCFG, EDCTEG, EDCGTE etc erc. The main thing make these hard, isn't the execution requirements, but recognizing and reacting fast enough to do the inputs so you can cover yourself from the Failed Evade as opposed to getting a Successful Evade and gaining side advantage. Recognizing that difference is the big thing.

    Final Showdown has a Yutori Throw-Escape/GTE which eases players into getting used to doing two things at once on defense which is also lost on people. GTE is the reverse of TEG and let's you play more passive as you are standing there blocking with a TE buffered inside the guard. The notation for this is press and hold and G, then press and hold P while still holding G. This nice and you can even chanc the direction of the TE while still in the block animation, however this get blown up by Guard Breaks, Catch Throws and Lows(if you aren't fast enough) and can get you in a bad habit of just standing there, which is what you don't do while playing defensively in VF.

    Sorry for the long post. I can over the counters to the above Defensive options and the counters to those options as well, if you'd like.
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • MikeBreezy92MikeBreezy92 Too Good Joined: Posts: 348
    No..its really not.
    "JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!"-Kamina
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    In the comparisons to other 3D fighters and 2D fighters as well, is that the game never stops for one player over the other when a hit occurs. The defensive game I mentioned in the previous post, is what keeps the game active for both players, whereas the other games the other player is sitting there airing for his/her turn on an average of 3-4 hits as opposed to the 1-2 hits of other fighters. This is also compounded with true punishment being guaranteed at -12, and a throw not being guaranteed until -10( ignoring throw breaks).

    Note: the long acronyms I mentioned like EDCFG can be done at the CD Fuzzy frames, but need to be buffered when the hit connects, so again reaction speeds are what's important, and that particular defensive technique is the most improetant one to know and be able to do.
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • Rabbit360Rabbit360 keyboard warrior Joined: Posts: 288
    Being good at this game requires a ton of system and character knowledge, I would for sure call it "deep" or complex. Also, while people from this scene may tell you that you don't need to know frames / frame data, you really do.

    Damn, reading about VF makes me want to try it again and see if I'm still bad at it.
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    Here's the thing to get, at the very least, competent at the game and not over think it.

    The core of this game is Tick Throw and Tick Mid(overheads for 2D gamers). In short the guess is, stand to block mid, Duck to avoid throw.

    Know the frames of the poke game, meaning P, 2P, Elbow. Block, Hit, Counter-Hit. All three put the person in the receiving end in a different state of text book defensive answers.

    Which leads to knowing the frames to know what techniques cuts the guessing game down on defense so you dont have to guess.

    Fuzzy Guard: -1 to -3 frames

    Crouch-Dash Fuzzy Guard: -4 and -5 frames

    ETE/TEG : -6 to -9.

    In general terms without knowing frames. Block hit -> Fuzzy, Get Hit -> Crouch-Dash Fuzzy, Get Counter-Hit -> ETE or TEG depending on how you want to deal with the potential mid.

    Again this is when dealing with P->Mid/Throw mixup.

    Strings such as PPPK aren't even guaranteed for all 4 hits. At most 3 hits of it are guaranteed if any of the attacks landed as a Counter-Hit. So if the first P lands as a CH the next two Ps are guaranteed, but the K can still be evaded or blocked. If the 2nd P of this string connects then the following P and K are guaranteed to hit.

    True Attack punishment doesn't start until -12 which is The speed of P and 2P.

    Throw aren't guaranteed until -10, but they can still be broken assuming you get the right guess.


    Again it's the speed at which this stuff happens that is the biggest hurdle in the game. People talk about how deep and complex the game is, which it is, without knowing the universal aspects of the game which are there for the beginner to get into. So you get a lot of weird and wordy answers about why the game is deep and complex from people who really don't understand the game.

    EDIT: Mentioned string stuff.
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    The difficulty is exaggerated.
    You did not go back in time, this is how the forums look.
    "You are all just as bad as the people you hate. You're only interested in characters based on tears." - Since1717
    NO STREAM = DEAD GAME
    PSN: X_the_Genius | GGPO: Mr X | Skype: MisterEcks
  • Rabbit360Rabbit360 keyboard warrior Joined: Posts: 288
    No it's not. That's just what they want you to think so they have more fodder for beat-downs. Look at the wall of things Femto is explaining, and that is just the basics. These concepts are completely alien to newcomers to the genre.

    Then with this in mind, you need to learn your character and your character's match-ups.
  • Rabbit360Rabbit360 keyboard warrior Joined: Posts: 288
    All sorts of great stuff from Femto btw. I will reference this next time I play.
  • BLACKSTAR84iBLACKSTAR84i Joined: Posts: 143
    VF is by far the deepest game. Looking at my av, you probably say that I'm bias, but at the same time, I've played and studied Marvel, Soul Calibur 4 and 5, and DOA among a few others, and I've also tried to learn Tekken to a certain extent.

    Now 'deep' is kind of an ambiguous term. Deep, IMO, has to do with the number and level of strategies you can employ in your gameplay. Having a big list of combos that you can pull off doesnt really make a game 'deep' if it doesn't take much brain power to get that first hit to begin with (like Vanilla Marvel Phoenix or 3s Chun). Now, as much as I dislike SF4, I love watching streams of it with high-lvl play; in comparison with other games, SF (sans 3) characters don't have many offensive or defensive options to choose from, but what makes it exciting for me to watch is that high level players take even the smallest details of seemingly routine abilities, such as walking and jumping etc, that can be easily overlooked by lower-level players and casuals (walk speed, jump arcs, max range of each attack for footsies, manipulating hitbox ranges for unblockables, etc)

    VF has all that, and way more options available at a given moment than any other fighting game. So when considering your strategies to beat your opponent, there are way more scenarios to consider at any given moment. And because of that, VF becomes less about solely exploiting your character's given abilities to force a win out of them (the part I dislike about SF4 and Marvel), and more about manipulating your opponent into logical traps.

    Now for example, take okizeme. You can blast me if I'm wrong (definitely no SF expert), but in SF4, when attempting oki, you have to consider whether the knocked-down opponent will quick-rise or not and whether or not they will reversal you (if they even have a reversal). In VF5FS, when attempting oki, the first thing to consider is whether or not your opponent will tech. And if they do tech, what direction will they tech (teching in place (i.e. quickrise) will force them to stand up, which is weak to throws, and side tech forces them to get up crouching, which can be blown up by launching mids)? If your opponent DOESNT tech, they now have access to back roll. They also have access to wake-up kicks, which are univeral oki reversals, and are also 50-50s (mid or low). They are -6(safe) on block, unless they risk doing a backroll wakeup kick for added space, which is -15 (>kick-class punishable). They are very viable reversals, but they also can be blown up in a variety of ways (some characters also have better options to specifically blow up wakeup kick than others). But then again, your opponent can also NOT tech and NOT use wake up kicks, so that's another thing to think about.

    From the above example in VF5FS, just from a knockdown you are now presented with nearly a dozen options to think about, and you have less than a second to respond (high lvl VF is as fast as Marvel btw). The ways that you can respond are even more numerous, and all have different levels of risks/rewards. In order to respond correctly, you have to deduce your opponent's habits (dat VF yomi), and as fast as VF is, your observation skills have to be on point to be able to respond correctly on multiple occasions in one game. And to win, you have to manipulate your opponent by cutting off certain options of theirs into a predictable set that you can exploit (example: attacking aggressively on a defensive opponent to make them susceptible to a throw, which is what guard is weak to in VF.). The number and level of options available to a player at a given moment is largely determined by frame adv/disadv, which is why frames are so important in VF


    As far as other 3d games, Soul Calibur and Tekken have very little in common with VF. Namco games are very defensive in nature IMO, the best players are the ones with the best blocking skills and movement - they are games based alot on footsies and poking. Also, throws are less effective, as in SC, they are nearly always 50-50s, and in Tekken they are seeable and you can break them (nearly?) everytime if you can react to the specific animation fast enough. This makes blocking really strong. Punishment is way more important in namco games, unlike VF, where the vast majority of moves are safe on block. I'd say the difference between SC and Tekken is that Tekken has a bigger emphasis on mixups and SC focuses more on spacing.

    DOA is more like VF, but with alot less options to choose between and deal with. I hear people call it VF lite. DOA also has a stronger emphasis on mid/low/throw mixups and strings than VF
    VIRTUA FIGHTER 5: FINAL SHOWDOWN GETO!

    http://www.gamingarcadia.com
  • Optimus CackOptimus Cack yes man kablam Joined: Posts: 269
    VF is super cool punching time and all, but let's not fall into the logical hole of equating the total number of options with "depth."
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    No it's not. That's just what they want you to think so they have more fodder for beat-downs. Look at the wall of things Femto is explaining, and that is just the basics. These concepts are completely alien to newcomers to the genre.

    Then with this in mind, you need to learn your character and your character's match-ups.


    From my experiences, I've had an easier time explaining this gam to people who don't play fighters, whereas people that do play fighters are already lost at the block button. I taught a friend if mine the basics of this game within 5 minutes and after a couple more she was doing High/Low/Mid mixups, Fuzzy'd a couple tick throw attempts and even box-stepped and stair-stepped a couple reps.

    The stuff I posted looks daunting when reading about it, but once you see it in action, you'll be like "That's it?". That's why this game is grossly misunderstood in the West, is that people already have a conception of what a fighting game is supposed to be like (mostly Capcom and Namco centric), so this game is either seen as "Scrub shit" or This game is too deep and complex".

    The stuff I posted shouldn't take more than a week to understand, and since it's Universal and applies to everyone it makes character switching a lot easier than in SF. I'll say there is more to I know in SF due to the deliberateness of the game and how the hit boxes work, than the character specifics of VF.

    The way VF uses the Guard Button is pretty intuitive as it takes beginner tendencies of pressing buttons and moving the stick even when getting hit, but tells them "That's ok, BUT press the buttons and move the stick this way."
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    VF is super cool punching time and all, but let's not fall into the logical hole of equating the total number of options with "depth."


    Umm... More options are depth, unless I'm missing something. The depth in this game is the all the situations you can be put in, yet you have multiple answers to get out of them, with no one answer being absolute. The complexity in this game comes from cutting down your opponents options even they they have so many to turn the tide.
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • BLACKSTAR84iBLACKSTAR84i Joined: Posts: 143
    VF is super cool punching time and all, but let's not fall into the logical hole of equating the total number of options with "depth."
    I didn't equate merely the options available as depth, but the sheer amount of strategies available and at a player's disposal at any given moment.
    Deep, IMO, has to do with the number and level of strategies you can employ in your gameplay

    But then again, if you're going to put up a comment to refute what you interpreted out of my comment, you should put up a reason to back it up, otherwise your comment doesnt amount to anything.
    VIRTUA FIGHTER 5: FINAL SHOWDOWN GETO!

    http://www.gamingarcadia.com
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    Concerning BlackStar's post: I and quite a few people I now feel like that Namco fighters play more like 2D games due to the space and whiff punishing. The cool thing about SC, is that there is actual 2D style zoning due to the length of weapons, where as Tekken and DOA are more about spacing and whiff punishing. I could be wrong, but that's how I look at it.
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • BLACKSTAR84iBLACKSTAR84i Joined: Posts: 143
    I agree with Femto. SC and especially Tekken feel very 2D'ish to me, but less because of spacing-focused gameplay and more because the sidestep options in both games are terrible when compared with DOA and VF IMO
    VIRTUA FIGHTER 5: FINAL SHOWDOWN GETO!

    http://www.gamingarcadia.com
  • Optimus CackOptimus Cack yes man kablam Joined: Posts: 269
    Umm... More options are depth, unless I'm missing something. The depth in this game is the all the situations you can be put in, yet you have multiple answers to get out of them, with no one answer being absolute. The complexity in this game comes from cutting down your opponents options even they they have so many to turn the tide.

    Two words: false choice

    You may have a cornucopia of options at a given moment, but not all of them may be worth pursuing. VF as a whole does a fairly good job of mitigating false choice compared to other fighting games though.
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    Whether they are worth pursuing is up to the player. Turning weak options into strong ones, isnt something exclusive to VF, but it does reap greater rewards and makes you less predictable. Doesn't matter if it's going for neutral throw instead of the high damage forward throw, or giving up advantage through an Offensive Evade Cancel to net a higher damage attack can be worth pursuing.
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,570
    Its hard to say

    just because because of the difference when you talk about going from 2d to 3d and the natural mitigating circumstances when you get into each game just because of the plane of play you are talking about.

    of course a 3d game okisume is going to be much more highly favored over a 2d game and considering your options based on the length of the stage.
    tekkens okisume is probably the most complex out of all the 3d fighters.
    based on the options where mids beat directly standing up and rolls.
    you also have counter hits beating wakeup kicks and resets to relaunch based on rolling back or forward.
    rolling to the side can be stuffed by jumping over to set up back grabs or side turned hits which equal full combos.
    also you have to take the corner into account.

    also because every 3d fighting game plays different and there are only a few that are noteworthy
    there arent any outliers.
    no way to properly equate a "traditional" sense of a 3d fighter.
    vf excels in fuzzy guard setups as in the posts mentioned above.

    Soul calibur has the best sidestep options out of any of the 3d fighters.
    because of the eight way run system you have a higher multitude of moves that you can use at vary angles of step
    this game also nets counter hits based on if you stepped or not including back step


    i also dont think its exactly right to call the namco games more 2d in the sense of whiff punishing
    that applies to every fighter period
    if anything its more emphasized in 3d games to to the plain and varying stage selection you encounter.

    the crush system is interesting to look at for these games too those in tekken obviously it garners the most reward because you get launched if you get crushed
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    No it's not. That's just what they want you to think so they have more fodder for beat-downs. Look at the wall of things Femto is explaining, and that is just the basics. These concepts are completely alien to newcomers to the genre.

    Then with this in mind, you need to learn your character and your character's match-ups.
    What makes VF harder than any other fighter?

    Obviously we're talking about learning to be competitive.
    You did not go back in time, this is how the forums look.
    "You are all just as bad as the people you hate. You're only interested in characters based on tears." - Since1717
    NO STREAM = DEAD GAME
    PSN: X_the_Genius | GGPO: Mr X | Skype: MisterEcks
  • BLACKSTAR84iBLACKSTAR84i Joined: Posts: 143
    snip

    8wayrun =/= sidestep.

    8wayrun in Soul Calibur is a positioning tool and that's it. Its used to position yourself and is not the same as using sidestep as a defensive option to beat certain attacks. 8wayrun as a sidestep is inherently terrible, as it is designed by Project Soul themselves from the beginning to be hit by any move when used as such. If you try to sidestep with 8wayrun, you are going to get pounded, even by linear moves. Soul calibur sidestep options are step(8 or 2 direction) or quickstep in SCV, which both suffer problems


    oh, and your comments about oki in Tekken, well, VF has all of that. But that's not even the point. the point was 'more options = more scenarios/strategies to keep in mind'
    VIRTUA FIGHTER 5: FINAL SHOWDOWN GETO!

    http://www.gamingarcadia.com
  • Rabbit360Rabbit360 keyboard warrior Joined: Posts: 288
    I don't know if it's harder than any other fighter in the long run, but it is harder to get into and start applying the 'basics' into your game.
  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,570
    8wayrun =/= sidestep.

    8wayrun in Soul Calibur is a positioning tool and that's it. Its used to position yourself and is not the same as using sidestep as a defensive option to beat certain attacks. 8wayrun as a sidestep is inherently terrible, as it is designed by Project Soul themselves from the beginning to be hit by any move when used as such. If you try to sidestep with 8wayrun, you are going to get pounded, even by linear moves. Soul calibur sidestep options are step(8 or 2 direction) or quickstep in SCV, which both suffer problems


    oh, and your comments about oki in Tekken, well, VF has all of that. But that's not even the point. the point was 'more options = more scenarios/strategies to keep in mind'
    thats not necessarily true

    you can quick step into a eight way run
    and it also depends on which soul calibur you are talking about if its 1 you have a point
    but 2, 3,4, and 5 you would be off
    you arent taking into account which moves have natural added step on their own
    for instance
    with alpha and setsuka i can step and punish moves with 33b or 22 a

    but that leads into specifics


    and also vfs oki is not close to tekkens oki lol thats a stretched thought at best

    you dont get relaunches and resets of a vf oki
    nor do you get punished by mids for standing straight up you dont get guaranteed back throws for reading side turned to standing oki

    too many varying properties, different games by their nature highlight different things

    this question in and of itself is hard to answer


    while i think vf is difficult like all smaller market games i.e guilty gear, its difficultly is a little exaggerated. its harder to get into from a beginner standpoint because aesthetically until vf5 there wasnt alot of incentive but thats another conversation for another day.
  • BLACKSTAR84iBLACKSTAR84i Joined: Posts: 143
    thats not necessarily true

    you can quick step into a eight way run
    that doesn't mean much in difference to what i was saying. sidestep=defensive technique to avoid certain attacks (usually linear attacks). if you quickstep or even regular step into a 8 way run, its still the step/quick step that actually HAS sidestep properties to avoid attacks. if you don't see what I'm saying, check 8wayrun.com

    and it also depends on which soul calibur you are talking about if its 1 you have a point
    but 2, 3,4, and 5 you would be off
    you arent taking into account which moves have natural added step on their own
    for instance
    with alpha and setsuka i can step and punish moves with 33b or 22 a

    but that leads into specifics
    this doesn't help your case in saying that 'Soul calibur has the best sidestep options out of any of the 3d fighters.' Other 3d games (including VF) have that too. But this is veering off topic, so even if you were right, it doesn't address the OP.
    you dont get relaunches and resets of a vf oki
    uh, yeah actually, you do with a correct read.
    nor do you get punished by mids for standing straight up you dont get guaranteed back throws for reading side turned to standing oki
    as I mentioned in my original post, you can get launched into a full combo if you tech incorrectly and your opponent reads it. Not to mention your wakeup reversal kicks can be CRUSHED on clash by a move >20 DMG (which can also lead into a combo, depending on character). if you play VF5FS, this is fundamental knowledge. In vanilla, you could OM sidestep or jump a wakeup kick into a back throw or launch. In FS, you might be able to do it still(noone in the west at least has found out for sure), but AM2's decision to jack up tracking makes it harder.
    while i think vf is difficult like all smaller market games i.e guilty gear, its difficultly is a little exaggerated. its harder to get into from a beginner standpoint because aesthetically until vf5 there wasnt alot of incentive but thats another conversation for another day.

    I don't think VF is hard. That's a public misconception. (I personally think Marvel is much harder to learn, if you don't play Virgil,Wolvie,derp etc) But it's definitely the most complex out of every fighting game hands down
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  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,570
    that doesn't mean much in difference to what i was saying. sidestep=defensive technique to avoid certain attacks (usually linear attacks). if you quickstep or even regular step into a 8 way run, its still the step/quick step that actually HAS sidestep properties to avoid attacks. if you don't see what I'm saying, check 8wayrun.com

    this doesn't help your case in saying that 'Soul calibur has the best sidestep options out of any of the 3d fighters.' Other 3d games (including VF) have that too. But this is veering off topic, so even if you were right, it doesn't address the OP.


    uh, yeah actually, you do with a correct read.


    as I mentioned in my original post, you can get launched into a full combo if you tech incorrectly and your opponent reads it. Not to mention your wakeup reversal kicks can be CRUSHED on clash by a move >20 DMG (which can also lead into a combo, depending on character). if you play VF5FS, this is fundamental knowledge. In vanilla, you could OM sidestep or jump a wakeup kick into a back throw or launch. In FS, you might be able to do it still(noone in the west at least has found out for sure), but AM2's decision to jack up tracking makes it harder.



    I don't think VF is harder either, I'm totally with you on that. That's a public misconception. (I personally think Marvel is much harder to learn, if you don't play Virgil,Wolvie,derp etc) But it's definitely the most complex out of every fighting game hands down
    I really hate when people break post lmfao

    every 3d game can punish wakeup kicks
    even soul calibur does this

    im talking about backrolls and standing up from side tech rolls into full on launches also what certain attacks hit grounded based on head or feet facing foward

    there is no way that vfs oki is on the same level as tekken

    and im saying you can punish moves with 22 and 88 moves
    specific instances but nonetheless they work
    and if anything it adds onto the varying angles that you can attack from



    and the op question asks the question of whether vf is the deepest game
    it assumes
    but it cant make a definitive case because all fighting games by their nature
    emphasize different things

    vf emphasizes things that other games dont
    that doesnt make it more complex
    just different
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    I think Oki is hard in both. VF doesn't get hard until you come across someone you can hit and low throw tech rolls, forcing you to slowly get up. Slowly getting up leaves you open to down/pounce attacks and ground throws. OM setups in this game are too dope. Else Blaze is an Oki monster, who can pin you down for the match, if played right.
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    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    I don't know if it's harder than any other fighter in the long run, but it is harder to get into and start applying the 'basics' into your game.

    SF4 you need to learn tight links in order to special cancel, focus attack dash cancels to combo into most Ultras, a couple of required OSes, safe jumps and all the characters different wakeup timings so you safe jumps work (there's like 5-6 different timings), 39 matchups, and the typical "frame data and character specific combos".

    VF is way fucking easier than SF4 imo
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  • Rabbit360Rabbit360 keyboard warrior Joined: Posts: 288
    I guess it's to each his own, because i found VF much harder to pick up than tekken for 3D fighters; and I generally pick up / transition to other 2D games easily enough. There is something about the back and forth that eludes me.
  • malvenmalven Hit me Joined: Posts: 28
    I don't know which one is the more complex but oki is the hardest to master in VF (one of the only hard and the hardest thing to master in vf i think overall) because it requires a good read and also a godly timing (anybody who plays both of those 3d games won't deny this, just fact).

    About the depth of VF, don't forget the wall and the edge which are a dramatic/ flashi part of the oki game ^^

    PS : Oki in VF doesn't work only for damage but also for advantage (it's really really important in this game.
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    3rd Strike.
    STOMP!
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    I guess it's to each his own, because i found VF much harder to pick up than tekken for 3D fighters; and I generally pick up / transition to other 2D games easily enough. There is something about the back and forth that eludes me.


    Don't feel bad. It eludes EVERYONE that plays other fighters. Just remember the general rules of exchanges are 1-2 hits, and the game takes place in the 1-9 frame set so keeping the opponent pinned down is harder, thus the emphasis on really paying attention to your opponenet playstyle.
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,567
    BUFFER YOUR RESPONSES. For instance when you block 2P, which should be blocked High, you buffer the Elbow to hit them, don't wait for the animation go back. The buffer system is another part misunderstood about the game.
    "Racism died in the 80's and 90's. Period." - ParryAll 11/10/2016
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/146396/the-current-state-of-the-world-and-us-updated-first-post/p237

    "I was walking home and decided to not get shot at by a Muslim by not interfering and if people want to keep enriching the US with diversity then that's their decision. Also, she was already getting raped. Me interfering would have most likely resulted in the Muslim dude getting killed and then the media picking it up as a hate crime. I just kept walking and I think I made the right choice." - ElderGod http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/208447/the-american-government-thread-youre-fired-no-really-gtfo/p424
  • King9999King9999 Joined: Posts: 10,895 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    SF4 you need to learn tight links in order to special cancel, focus attack dash cancels to combo into most Ultras, a couple of required OSes, safe jumps and all the characters different wakeup timings so you safe jumps work (there's like 5-6 different timings), 39 matchups, and the typical "frame data and character specific combos".

    VF is way fucking easier than SF4 imo

    This right here is one of things that separates VF from most other games: the input leniency. I think this is one of the reasons why the online play works so well.

    I don't understand why high execution has to factor into a fighting game's depth. I like SF4, but I hate that a lot of the combos are links. Fighting games are supposed to be easy to play.
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  • capt.catalinacapt.catalina NES Child Joined: Posts: 19
    Virtua Fighter is my favorite fighter, next to Super Turbo. There's a lot going on within the game, but doesn't take an incredible amount of joystick gymnastics to play well.

    The unique thing for me that this game brings to the table is the fight rhythm (momentum swings). Pacing is very quick, where both players are actively trying to outguess each other to gain the upper hand. Safety in your attacks is quite rare, as the defender has many options on how to react. Thus there's bigger focus on being able to read your opponent and punishing accordingly. While some situations are guaranteed (throw on +12 advantage), the damage is not, as said throw can still be broken/teched. The Rock/Paper/Scissors analogy is prominent in this game especially so.

    The cast itself can be controlled easily enough, where each character being able to exploit certain faucets of gameplay better than others. Jeffry, for example, doesn't have any reversals or attacks with deflection/parry properties, and is slow movement wise. He is however able to exploit low & ground throws, and can be frightening when he has you against the wall due to his heavy hands and ring out opportunities. El Blaze, although quite fast and varied with his arsenal, is susceptible to juggles due to his small size.

    Technique isn't too bad, once you understand the options available. Mids, lows, launchers, circular attacks, and throws make up the foundation of choices in offense, where guard, evasion & throw breaking make up the defense. Building your skills upon that allows you to dive into the advanced strategies in the game, and will allow you to explore the depth of the game. In contrast, UFC Undisputed is one title I could never appreciate playing as the controls make these same principles a chore rather than a joy to apply.
  • SpyridonSpyridon Joined: Posts: 484
    This right here is one of things that separates VF from most other games: the input leniency. I think this is one of the reasons why the online play works so well.

    I don't understand why high execution has to factor into a fighting game's depth. I like SF4, but I hate that a lot of the combos are links. Fighting games are supposed to be easy to play.

    Honestly, I'm not a big fan of VF (or any 3d fighter - I'm a fan of 2d's more).

    But I completely agree with the sentiment that high execution should not be a major factor in fighting games.

    The better player, or "more skilled" player should be determined by knowledge, knowing how and when to time their attacks, strategy, positioning, some sort of "game plan" when approaching the opponent depending on characters/your style, mind games (should be a very important one, possibly the most, so I'm stressing it), etc.

    Some execution is healthy for a game, so that players have something to learn, but most modern games have been following a trend of high execution and super long combos, which just turns the game in to an execution battle, rather than a fight. And what is inevitable from those game mechanics? Randomness. Also "derpy" characters are a result of this type of game design too, when an easy execution character can do just as much damage as a high execution character. It completely screws the "risk vs reward" system in fighting games. And there's not even an easy solution, because if they make the high execution characters do far more damage, they will become the "top tier characters" and the fights will be even more based on execution, AKA even more random.

    It's just bad game design. You could have an incredible neutral game, better reads, and generally outplay your opponent, but then lose the fight because of a dropped combo... Just from SoCal Regionals alone there was many examples of this. It's a shame when players are clearly more skilled, but end up being beat because of a dropped combo and game design that rewards pro players for playing low execution characters.

    Some games (such as P4A) have gone a long way to show that you could be easier on the execution but still have a highly competitive game, and when it comes to execution SFxT seems to have been a step in the right direction from SF4 imo. I just hope fighting game developers continue to smarten up and get off this road which is going to lead nowhere but holding back the Fighting Game genre from growing larger.
  • GREEKGREEK Ryu's been smoking that shit Joined: Posts: 563
    I've played virtua fighter for a while and I'm saying that it's a simple game but on person to person level aka psychological level, it's compared to 3s. The level of depth between the two players really depend on the players, but the mindgames and options you have to use (and counter options) make it so "deep".

    That being said I've had my best times with virtua fighter not worrying thinking too deep into it when I play. If you like the game for what it is you don't need the depth to have a good time.
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  • ZeroSoulZeroSoul Joined: Posts: 1
    I have been playing VF since VF 1 and 2 in the arcade. VF5 FS is very deep but people don't quite understand why unless they play others who understand the game mechanics. It's easy to just mash P or 2P all day, but quite different when you get into the movement options and actual combos.

    Why is it deep? Well it's partially because of movement being one of the top skills in the game. When you move it doesn't feel like other 3D games because you can dash into and out of 3D dimensions rather than just slowly walk and still get hit. It's not like SC or Tekken where when you sidewalk it takes you a few seconds to register being in that dimension or position to the opponent. Movement is so slick and quick that if you use it properly you can do some amazing things.

    It's also deep because their are so many other variables of movement, ducking is varied, attacks vary so much while moving. Sure, other games have that but most games don't allow such free roam over these tactics. What I mean by this is, you are not grounded by your own movement like other games where if you or the opponent move a certain way you are pretty much forced to react a certain way. The game also forces you to switch it up all the time. Many things are easily punishable and it really makes you think of new ways to either avoid or keep the pressure on.

    Why is execution such the talk? It's because your execution is really rewarded in this game unlike many other games where your execution is sometimes put on the back burner over priority of moves. You may opt to do easier execution moves in other games due to priority, but not in VF.

    In general execution is way different in VF. It forces you to think about bare bones fighting game mechanics(spacing, timing, movement) over special priorities of special moves like say Tekken where certain special moves gives more priority. In VF priority is a lot more, if not completely based on your timing and your movement. Just look at it this way, when you are put in blockstun in VF you still have tons of options to get away as opposed to SC, Tekken, or 2D fighters. Grabs don't hold all the priority either.

    VF is a very fair game honestly and that's also part of the depth because you have to think out of the box to be good at it. Every time I play the game against good players I am in a new situation I have never been in before because it forces you to really evolve your gameplay rather than rinse and repeat the same moves, combos all day. If you do constantly rinse and repeat your going to be eaten up in a hurry and no that does not always apply to every fighter. So yea it is something special.
  • SnoopDoggSnoopDogg Joined: Posts: 50
    Hey guys,

    The comparisons between DOA and VF,
    Is it about DOA 5, or previous iterations ?


    I made a thread in the "Fighting Game Discussion" sub forum
    that was in the same vein as this, though it was closed by d3

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