After the Dust Settles: KoF XIII

Sh0ryu_Repp4

Hi everyone! Repp4 here! It's been a while since i've posted on SRK but recently i finished an article that i had been working on for a bit. Entitled "After The Dust Settles" it examines why so many non-Capcom games get pushed aside and fade into obscurity while the Capcom games remain King of the Hill. The first entry deals with my favorite non-Capcom fighter, The King of Fighters XIII.

The article is a bit long winded but i would really appreciate some feedback from you guys.

Thanks in advance!

(EDIT) Apparentely SRK won't let me post something with more than 20,000 characters... -___-
So instead i've posted a link to a different forum i frequent which allowed me to post it. Sorry for the inconvenience but i hope you guys still give it a look. Thanks again.

http://yugiohforums.com/showthread.php?t=88085

Louiscipher

1: Fighters weren't in a coma. Someone link that thread showing the number of fighters that came out before SF4.

2:

[SIZE=13px]There is also no pushblock, alpha counters, or similar “get out of a situation” for free mechanics. This brings me to my next point.[/SIZE]

KOF does have Guard Cancels and they take up 1 bar.

3: The execution isn't that different. Roughly the same as the old school fighters like Garou and 3S. Only difference is the varying inputs for Supers/NeoMax.

4: The online for 3SOE is ass.

Those are the errors I discovered. I skimmed through your article. Not bad but a little too fanboy in it's writing and overlong.

yomipower

What's with this recent flood of shitty fighting game related articles full of misinformation and half-assed analyses and/or claims based on misconception?

jedpossum

I hate it when I link to my own threads.
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/ten-years-gone-list-of-games-when-street-fighter-was-absent.151030/

d3v

You do realize that you can split up your "article" into multiple posts.

Return of Shiki

Louiscipher, post: 7820451, member: 20911 wrote:

1: Fighters weren't in a coma. Someone link that thread showing the number of fighters that came out before SF4.

2:KOF does have Guard Cancels and they take up 1 bar.

3: The execution isn't that different. Roughly the same as the old school fighters like Garou and 3S. Only difference is the varying inputs for Supers/NeoMax.

4: The online for 3SOE is ass.

5.

Street Fighter 4, in essence, gave birth to Marvel vs. Capcom 3, Mortal Kombat 9, Soul Calibur 5, King of Fighters 13, and all the other fighters popping up nowadays.

The ONLY game out of all of those SF4 is responsible for birthing is MvC3. KOF XIII was in development since 2004. MKvDC and Soul Calibur 4 both sold over 2 million copies. Those successes are what are responsible for MK9 and SC5 being made, not SF4, not Capcom.

6. KOF XIII does have more gimmicks and comeback mechanics than previous KOFs. This was even heightened for the console release of KOF 13 (you get WAAAAY more meter for blocking and receiving damage; less strict scaling on Neomaxes).
I have zero doubt this was specifically done to pander to the post 09' SF4 crowd.

7. The game DOES have input shortcuts. Yes, even for DPs.
Shortcuts that have NEVER been featured in any KOF before. Wanna take a guess who this blatant pandering was done for?
In fact, the shortcuts in my opinion make the game WAY TOO LOOSE and is one of the primary reasons why I stopped playing it, despite being a long-time diehard SNK fan. The game just feels wonky and doesn't feel like KOF in the slightest.
It's like the exact opposite of the old-school (pre-1999) SNK controls.
Like in KOF 98, if I try to do Daimon's BNB (close :snkd:, :snkc:, throw DM) I'll probably get close D and jack shit else because the input system goes: "LOL didn't hold one of the diagonals for 2 frames, fuck you scrub you get nothing"
In KOF 13, if try to do Daimon's BNB again (close :snkd:, :snkc:, throw DM), then I might get one of like 5 goddamn different moves (many of them wasting meter or whiffing and leaving me open for a big can o' whoop ass) depending on if I accidentally hold a certain direction for 1 measly frame too long or if I try to buffer the motion at all.

Hecatom

I am not going to read the article, since i don't need to be Nostradamus to know that it sucks, and it is filled with stupid crap. And by seeing the posts on this thread is clear that i am right.

BTW
It makes me laugh and face palm at the same time every time that some post 09er claims that Snore Fighter 4 revived the genre and that its thanks to it that we have all the other games now, what a way to prove that you know shit about the subject.

Return of Shiki

To be fair, I don't disagree with all of the OP's points.

In fact, I imagine most SF4 players do view KOFXIII in most of the ways he describes, which a lot of the reason why it won't be picked up by a larger audience.
The fact that KOF XIII's gameplay is seen as "much more strategic and harder to execute" actually is an accurate representation of what most players in the scene think about it.
Whether it actually DESERVES that reputation is another matter entirely.

Master Chibi

holy fuck

I liked it when no one write shitty articles on fighting games and we just played the fucking game

Pertho

Master Chibi, post: 7822357, member: 1575 wrote:

snip

I do both. Fight me.

Or play me in skullgirls. I really wanna play that but I have 0 local comp.

Grublet

Return of Shiki, post: 7822316, member: 3598 wrote:

To be fair, I don't disagree with all of the OP's points.

In fact, I imagine most SF4 players do view KOFXIII in most of the ways he describes, which a lot of the reason why it won't be picked up by a larger audience.
The fact that KOF XIII's gameplay is seen as "much more strategic and harder to execute" actually is an accurate representation of what most players in the scene think about it.
Whether it actually DESERVES that reputation is another matter entirely.

Starting FGs with SF4, I never felt that KOF 13 was any harder than that game. It is just a different game. It doesn't help that you can't play the game online, but I don't think that's necessarily the main issue. KOF 13 not getting very many numbers, I think mostly comes from that it has a stigma of being harder than it actually is.

Master Chibi

Pertho, post: 7822369, member: 8113 wrote:

I do both. Fight me.

Or play me in skullgirls. I really wanna play that but I have 0 local comp.

You write interesting shit, and honestly when I read your stuff it feels like I'm at a bar or cafe talking to a great friend, where the conversation could last for hours.

This guy's article sounds like he's trying pimp his degree.

Also I love Skullgirls but I can't play it the way I want to lol

AirLancer

What the fuck was that article and why does it exist?

CanadianDstryr

I honestly believe the only thing holding KoF back is its total unplayability online.

The execution barrier is overstated, and that becomes apparent to anyone who's given the game a week.
Unfortunately it's really hard for people to put time into a game where you can't play online matches.

Great_Dark_Hero

The only few points I can agree upon is the fact that KOFXIII IS an awesome fighting game that has a lot of good stuff to offer.
Now having said that, the article in itself was really long-winded and misinformed in more than a few ways.
The online net code might have its problems, but one does not simply play online. SFIV is not really responsible for "reviving" anything - fighting games were still being played over the years regardless - as there still plenty of individuals playing CVS2, Tekken5: DR, MVC2, and whatnot, enjoying themselves in the process (in other words, the fighting game scene never really "died"). Last, KOFXIII is not as difficult as people want to make out to be.

... There's been a awful lot of opinionated fighting game articles floating around lately... all of which are causing some extent of controversy.

Mr. X

This article is great. Not for the reasons the author thinks but because this is a very clear example of how many people and players view fighters currently. Although they are wrong, I think it's important to find out why they came to that conclusion.

Edit: Makoto wasn't one of the worst in AE, she was in the tier below those 3.

BiGGDaddyCane

Return of Shiki, post: 7822119, member: 3598 wrote:

Shortcuts that have NEVER been featured in any KOF before. Wanna take a guess who this blatant pandering was done for?
In fact, the shortcuts in my opinion make the game WAY TOO LOOSE and is one of the primary reasons why I stopped playing it, despite being a long-time diehard SNK fan. The game just feels wonky and doesn't feel like KOF in the slightest.
It's like the exact opposite of the old-school (pre-1999) SNK controls.
Like in KOF 98, if I try to do Daimon's BNB (close :snkd:, :snkc:, throw DM) I'll probably get close D and jack shit else because the input system goes: "LOL didn't hold one of the diagonals for 2 frames, fuck you scrub you get nothing"
In KOF 13, if try to do Daimon's BNB again (close :snkd:, :snkc:, throw DM), then I might get one of like 5 goddamn different moves (many of them wasting meter or whiffing and leaving me open for a big can o' whoop ass) depending on if I accidentally hold a certain direction for 1 measly frame too long or if I try to buffer the motion at all.

Ditto

One of the reasons I haven't touch XIII in almost a year. Some of the other's, characters missing moves and some characters Normal's being changed. Still a good game, I play it causally if my arcade has the XIII machine up or if my friends & brothers are down..but i dont fuck with it much besides that.

bkfst_sausage

I played 13 last night for the first time in a while, as I started to play 2k2 again... and after having gotten used to the shortcuts... and then learned the game again without them...

KoF13 has some ass controls.

Also, quoting this for emphasis.

Mr. X, post: 7823070, member: 7367 wrote:

This article is great. Not for the reasons the author thinks but because this is a very clear example of how many people and players view fighters currently. Although they are wrong, I think it's important to find out why they came to that conclusion.

Edit: Makoto wasn't one of the worst in AE, she was in the tier below those 3.

Vlad7779311

Street Fighter 4 revived the genre? Then why the hell do I remember Tekken 5 being so popular with casual non-serious players?

fffffff

Return of Shiki, post: 7822119, member: 3598 wrote:

7. The game DOES have input shortcuts. Yes, even for DPs.
Shortcuts that have NEVER been featured in any KOF before. Wanna take a guess who this blatant pandering was done for?
In fact, the shortcuts in my opinion make the game WAY TOO LOOSE and is one of the primary reasons why I stopped playing it, despite being a long-time diehard SNK fan. The game just feels wonky and doesn't feel like KOF in the slightest.
It's like the exact opposite of the old-school (pre-1999) SNK controls.
Like in KOF 98, if I try to do Daimon's BNB (close :snkd:, :snkc:, throw DM) I'll probably get close D and jack shit else because the input system goes: "LOL didn't hold one of the diagonals for 2 frames, fuck you scrub you get nothing"
In KOF 13, if try to do Daimon's BNB again (close :snkd:, :snkc:, throw DM), then I might get one of like 5 goddamn different moves (many of them wasting meter or whiffing and leaving me open for a big can o' whoop ass) depending on if I accidentally hold a certain direction for 1 measly frame too long or if I try to buffer the motion at all.

There are "shortcuts" for DP's that include f,d,f / f, qcf / and hcb, f. Not really "short" cuts at all, and some of these are a great way to properly HDC the moves you want instead of getting the wrong move or supercancelling at the wrong time.

And what inputs overlap with Daimon's DM? I don't even play Daimon, and just trying it now I couldn't even get anything OTHER than his DM, and my execution is pretty trashy.

Return of Shiki

Daimon has both a hcb,f+P and dp+P, as well as qcb+K, hcb,f+K, and dp+K move.

If you try to buffer his standing D within his DM motion like in KOF 98 (which you MUST do in that game since the game requires diagonals to be held for at least 2 frames to register) then you can get any of one of those 5 moves from either the standing D or df+C.

Emil

Return of Shiki, post: 7828007, member: 3598 wrote:

If you try to buffer his standing D within his DM motion like in KOF 98 (which you MUST do in that game since the game requires diagonals to be held for at least 2 frames to register) then you can get any of one of those 5 moves from either the standing D or df+C.

I heard some players are doing this combo without any buffering, like Xiaohai. Honestly, I don't know how they do it...

Spαrkster

Emil, post: 7833229, member: 3663 wrote:

I heard some players are doing this combo without any buffering, like Xiaohai. Honestly, I don't know how they do it...

I figured they were using some sort of button hold trick which helps out with Takuma's execution, but you really can't get the buffer with Daimon and even if you could you'd have to know in advance to hold something down or you wouldn't be able to run or do any other specials. Though to be fair comboing his instant grab into an unblockable dp+A probably does more damage but I'm guessing that followup doesn't work on some of the top tiers.

Emil

Spαrkster, post: 7835556, member: 21577 wrote:

I figured they were using some sort of button hold trick which helps out with Takuma's execution, but you really can't get the buffer with Daimon and even if you could you'd have to know in advance to hold something down or you wouldn't be able to run or do any other specials. Though to be fair comboing his instant grab into an unblockable dp+A probably does more damage but I'm guessing that followup doesn't work on some of the top tiers.

The followup can work on 95% of the cast...but it's banned in China. That's why you never see it in Chinese tournaments.

COMMONSENSE

Online is not unplayable.

Emil

COMMONSENSE, post: 7835683, member: 6536 wrote:

Online is not unplayable.

Yeah it is, unless you're one of those players that likes hitting buttons, doesn't react to anything and has crappy execution in general.

Spαrkster

Edit: I don't know what I'm talking about about Daimon's glitch. I'll try sliding out or something next time, but I dunno of that works against the df.C setup which seems different from the just frame situations since the AA setup has baby timing.

I just loathe how 98 lacks a real training mode which kills my interest at times.


Coincidentally dp+A can combo from juggles in XIII but the timing is impractical and hcf+A is better in every way.

Emil

Spαrkster, post: 7836882, member: 21577 wrote:

Edit: I don't know what I'm talking about about Daimon's glitch. I'll try sliding out or something next time, but I dunno of that works against the df.C setup which seems different from the just frame situations since the AA setup has baby timing.

You can do a reversal one frame slide (or other command normal that requires you to hit down even if it doesn't "slide", like Daimon's df+C) to escape, but it only works against the one frame earthquake glitch(that you do after grabs and stuff) and not the df+C anti-air into earthquake glitch. In any case, that's pretty offtopic now.

AirLancer

Emil, post: 7835706, member: 3663 wrote:

Yeah it is, unless you're one of those players that likes hitting buttons, doesn't react to anything and has crappy execution in general.

"Oh hey, he hopped. Can't react, so I hope whatever I blocking state I'm in happened to be the right one!"

Femto

You guys know that KOF games have an 8 frame buffer, yeah? I found the execution a lot easier once I learned that tidbit, but I wasn't bonkers crazy to start with like people were complaining about at first.

The shortcuts in this game aren't really shortcuts as they are really alternate inputs. That's not a bad thing.

It really comes down to people needing to show up for to stuff, if they can, and just genuinely like to play the game. Isn't their a ATLUS tourney? Are the players that truly love this game going to that? Especially the ones out of state?

I find thats the biggest thing that separates things is the people that like SF and marvel are traveling the most. This has a snowball effect as more people show up, so more people show up.

Also, with smaller games people tend to freak out if it's not featured at every major so why not concentrate on a few majors so more people know that that's the spot to be if you play a particular game? EVO is the big tourney now, but even if your game isn't a features game at first, couldn't a large side tourney make people notice?

My only gripes with XIII are the system not being as dynamic as 98UM and one that most other fighters do, and thats meter management. I don't like being told when I can and can't do something and would rather have all my options unlocked all the time.

Spαrkster

AirLancer, post: 7838659, member: 34626 wrote:

"Oh hey, he hopped. Can't react, so I hope whatever I blocking state I'm in happened to be the right one!"

Even in a somewhat tolerable 4 bar connection you can't properly react decently enough to read between an early jump-in or a deep one, which makes an enormous difference. Kyo's j.2C might as well be uninterruptable unless you wanna mash out an attack and hope that he hopped. Trying to d.B anti-air in lag is way riskier than normal, too. The best you can get in XIII's netcode is anticipation AAs against hops which aren't enough to let you play the real game. You can't even learn proper defense in this case either because your range of options is decreased.

Players in Korea and Japan with FIOS still say online is unplayable.

If you actually wanted to improve your reactions, defense, and spacial awareness you're better off sticking with a GGPO game. All you'd learn from XIII online are simple things like how to punish a specific move from XIII, easy things you can do in training mode alone if you must.

AirLancer

Which is why I very rarely play online.