SSF4 AE 2012 Tier List Thread (OP last updated May 2013)

m16ghost · December 2012

This thread is meant to discuss and post tier information for SSF4 AE 2012. The old thread was getting large and was originally meant for Super, and then AE.

Updates:
-Added Itabashi Zangief's ten worst characters (2/26/2013)
-Added Justin Wong's tier list (5/3/2013)
What is a tier list?

A tier list is a method of ranking and grouping characters based on who has the most/least advantaged matches. Historically, this has been done through a matchup chart where, given two players of equal skill, each character plays every other character in a set of 10 games, and see who wins most. So in a "6-4" matchup, one character would win 6 games, and the other would win 4.

Tier lists are subjective and evolve over time. The point of this thread is to discuss this information.

What tier lists aren't:

-A popularity list
-A list of characters YOU have a hard time against
-A personal assessment on what kind of person/player you are
-In stone

As long as you at least understand what these lists aren't, you will save yourself a lot of headache.

All the tier lists here come from "organized" sources. These are neither my list nor Joe Blow random's. If you know of an organized tier list that should be here that is missing, please let me know and I'll add it.

m16ghost · December 2012

Here are the tier lists:

SRK Community Tier list (updated November 2012):
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5418/tierlistfinal.png

Spoiler:

Latest Eventhubs Community Tier list, March 2012:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

Spoiler:

Justin Wong's Tier list from Eventhubs, May 2013:

Spoiler:

Kazunoko's Tier list from Arcadia Magazine, Feb 2012:

Spoiler:

Various top player opinions on 2012 best characters:

Spoiler:

Infiltration, circa Nov 2012:

Infiltration: I feel there are many characters worthy of being considered top 10, but in no specific order, I think Rufus, Ibuki, Cammy, Seth, Adon, Akuma, Viper, Yun, Sagat, Feilong could be considered top 10.

source: Low Land Lions Interview with Infiltration

Chocoblanka, circa Oct 2012:

Q: In Japan who are generally considered to be the top 10 characters?
A: “Hmm this is tough as Im a Blanka user so my top ten would probably be different from others. Here is my top ten but please note that this is from the view of a Blanka player and my community.
1st. Fei Long – Without a doubt I find him most difficult.
Joint 2nd-6th place Gouki/Adon/Seth/Viper/Cammy – These are more less the same for me
7th place Makoto
8th place Sagat
9th Ibuki
10th Place. Yun – I don’t play that many Yuns though to be honest.”

source: Low Land Lions Interview with Chocoblanka

Mago, circa Feb 2012:

A: Who are your top 5?
Mago: Cammy, Fei Long, Ryu, Seth, Adon are very strong but...
A: but?
Mago: but Ibuki, Akuma, Ken, Sakura, Makoto, Rufus are just about as strong as those 5.
A: And then?
Mago: I don't think there's really a top 5, more like a top 10, and then you have to group them by their characteristics.
A: So Yun and Yang are completely gone?
Mago: No, Yun and Yang are still powerful, Yun is stronger than Yang, as Yang is a bit nerfed.
A: I'm surprised your top 10 doesn't include Viper?
Mago: Viper, Abel and Sagat are all strong, but not as strong as the others.

source: 17UTT forums

Various Japanese Players:

Uryo - Seth, Akuma and Abel.
Sako - Seth, Akuma, Fei Long, C. Viper and Dhalsim.
Kazunoko - Seth and Ryu.
Mago - Sagat, Balrog, Akuma, E. Honda, Abel, Cammy, Sakura, Blanka, Seth and Fei Long.
Tokido - Seth and E. Honda.
Kindevu - Seth, Sagat, Akuma and Cammy.
Hishou - Seth, Cammy, Akuma, and Abel.
Nekojita - Seth, Adon, Sakura
Younashi - Seth, Fei Long, Cammy
Naruo - Seth, Fei Long, Ibuki, Juri
Itabashi Zangief - Seth, Cammy, Sagat
RF - Abel, Sagat, Seth, Akuma, Rufus, Sakura and Ryu.

source: Zhi's twitter and Eventhubs

Daigo, circa November 2011:

Overall balance is very good.

Best chars: Ryu, Akuma, Cammy
Twins are mid-tier.
Fei-Long is high-tier.
Seth and Sagat are high-tier but has bad match-ups.

Rest of the characters: characters other than - Chun-li, Dhalsim, Gouken, Rose, Gen, Dan, T-Hawk, Deejay, Guy, Hakan, Oni, and Evil-Ryu have potential to be high-tier.

source: http://hsiensf.blogspot.com/view/classic

Kyoku's Tier list from June 2012 Issue of Arcadia Magazine:

Spoiler:

Alioune's Tier list from May 2012:

Spoiler:

Uryo's Tier list from November 2011:

Spoiler:

m16ghost · December 2012

Itabashi Zangief's opinion on the ten worst characters in AE 2012, from February 2013:

Spoiler:

IZ: Hmm, this is tricky but I think in no particular order

-Dan
-Hakan
-Fuerte
-Gouken
-Oni
-Gen
-Deejay
-Guy
-Yang
-Dudley

Source: Low Land Lions interview with Itabashi Zangief

m16ghost · December 2012

Reserved Just in case.

chubbyfingerz · December 2012

I'm no expert and I certainly cant argue with these guys but I feel Dee Jay doesnt get enough love. There was a thread recently about top-tier potential and I feel that Oni certainly has it, but almost at the bottom of the tier. Why are Abel and Makoto so high on the SRK tier? I don't see enough of them in the top echelon of recent tournaments.

Xian's Get won the Canada Cup and is a veritable BEAST, but he's far down on the list. I feel he also deserves more love. Gouken almost at the bottom of the list, I dont get it.

Waiting for some 2013 perks to make Hakan better... he is tons of fun to play. An anti-air normal would boost his defense and shoot him up the ranks, IMHO

Necrotrophic · December 2012

chubbyfingerz, post: 7845887, member: 78522 wrote:

I'm no expert and I certainly cant argue with these guys but I feel Dee Jay doesnt get enough love. There was a thread recently about top-tier potential and I feel that Oni certainly has it, but almost at the bottom of the tier. Why are Abel and Makoto so high on the SRK tier? I don't see enough of them in the top echelon of recent tournaments.

Xian's Get won the Canada Cup and is a veritable BEAST, but he's far down on the list. I feel he also deserves more love. Gouken almost at the bottom of the list, I dont get it.

Waiting for some 2013 perks to make Hakan better... he is tons of fun to play. An anti-air normal would boost his defense and shoot him up the ranks, IMHO

DeeJay is seen as low tier mostly because of how bad his wakeup game is, there are other reasons, but that seems to be a major problem in most matchups for him.

They should rename Oni to Onlini, because you arent gonna win anything with him without latency. Hes a gimmick character whose gimmicks are pretty easy to see coming.

Abel - the most notorious Abel player plays KOF 13 now, and AFAIK he doesnt really play SF4 anymore.
more people should play makoto

Gen is majorly slept on in my opinion. But Xian is a character specialist, and Gen is already rare to begin with. Its not surprising that he can win tournaments with him

divinemarkpizza · December 2012

Necrotrophic, post: 7845939, member: 13951 wrote:

DeeJay is seen as low tier mostly because of how bad his wakeup game is, there are other reasons, but that seems to be a major problem in most matchups for him.

They should rename Oni to Onlini, because you arent gonna win anything with him without latency. Hes a gimmick character whose gimmicks are pretty easy to see coming.

Abel - the most notorious Abel player plays KOF 13 now, and AFAIK he doesnt really play SF4 anymore.
more people should play makoto

Gen is majorly slept on in my opinion. But Xian is a character specialist, and Gen is already rare to begin with. Its not surprising that he can win tournaments with him

LOL onlini

Vulpes · December 2012

Aliounes List is from May 2012 (and at least Kyoku's probably is from 2012 as well.. doesn't make too much sense for a v2012 List to be released in June11)
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/ this should prolly also be part
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/nov/28/infiltrations-top-10-characters-super-street-fighter-4-arcade-edition-v2012/ also this

MarleyGA · December 2012

Finally got around to getting this image done, sorry for the delay but real life threw me for a loop.

http://i.imgur.com/ijM0e.jpg

[SIZE=14px]Lets begin with the disclaimers:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]1. These results are primarily US centric. I would love to include other regions, especially Asian Pacific region, so if you could point me in the direction of such results/events it would be much appreciated.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]2. These results I used are what were reported by either the big fgc news sites, from my own viewership and recording, or a thread if I could find one.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]3. Character representation is based on who the player used throughout the tournament and not necessarily what he used in a specific phase of the bracket.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]4. The tier lists are based off the November tier list: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/ssf4-tier-list-thread-reboot-super-ae-updated-02-01-09.123623/page-388#post-7701294[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]5. The Majors covered in this post are:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]Apex 2012 (6), Winter Brawl 6 (16), Final Round XV(16),NCR 10(16), Power Up 2012(8), Seasons Beatings Summer Slam(8), Shadowloo Showdown (16), UFGT8(16), Northwest Majors(16), ECT4(8), CEO2012 (16), Evo 2012 (16), Texas 25th(12), NYC 25th(16),Texas Showdown(12), Taiwan 25th(8), Seasons Beatings Ascension(16), LA 25th(16), Brazil 25th(8), Japan 25th(8), Canada Cup(16), France 25th(8), Youmacon(16), European Masters (8), Hadocon IV(16), Dreamhack Winter (8), NEC XIII(16), UK 25th(8), Grand Finals 25th(16)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]29 events, 366 placings (Don’t forget, people can use more than one character so numbers may be larger)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px][SIZE=14px]6.The title of being a major is rather loose, I hope to have a more concrete way of defining it in the coming months as to evaluate the level of competition at an event.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]My thoughts:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14px]Overall charts: With such a US centric list, it is of no surprise to anyone that the EG members inflate B tier representation (Rufus and Balrog) which are very visible in the transition from overall % (47 times EG members appear out of 418 participants, 11%) to the unique % (4 occurrences out of 225 participants, 1.8%). This is also reflect in the drop in the drop in Rufus and Balrog on the unique count list, dropping 16 and 8 places respectively. The overall charts really show that, while obviously more difficult, every character but Dan was capable of making it into top 8 or 16(not all tournaments posted 16, so I took however many were posted for the event).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14px]Top 3 charts: Again the same Rufus Balrog trend appears again but to less severity. The glaring change that jumps out is the complete departure of Dhalsims from 13 players. This speaks volume to the amount of difficulty he has to the most frequently occurring characters in top 3: losing 6-4 or worse to 7 of the top 10, breaking even 5-5 with 2 characters, and winning 1 match up. Also worth noting the charts are starting to shape more towards how a tier list should suggest, slanting from A tiers towards B tier, but due to the bloat of characters in B tier it remains higher.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14px]Top 1 Charts: Rufus remains on top and for the first time in the unique charts he takes a top 2 unique representation; This really shows how good EG Justin Wong and EG Ricky Ortiz have performed this year when compared to the 1st place overall count. On the same note, the same can be said for Infiltration on Akuma, Taking 5 of Akumas 1st place performances(the other being Eita at Shadowloo Showdown) and setting himself apart from the 5 unique representation from the Top 3 list as the premier Akuma player. On the flip side, for the first time Balrog does not return to the chart as his sole representative EG PR Balrog was unable to take home a 1st place win(which is a shame, I love PR Rogs play) and is the only top 10 character from the top 3 chart unable to return. The unique charts, really from across all 3 fields, reflect the power of Cammy in her current state. More people were able to use Cammy then any other character to place in top 16, top 3, and 1st. This may be in part due to her very few bad match ups Ibuki, Balrog, Dee Jay, and Oni), of which are always uniquely under represented.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14px]Combination charts: If I could go back, I would remove the Character Count chart and just make the Occurrence by Tier % bigger as it really has more impact. When you combine the A+, A, and A- tiers and compare it to the massive B tier, they have equal representation in first place finishes. This says two things to me rather loudly: the current version of SF has a wide character variety and that the tier list needs re-structuring in the upper ends of the B tier. According to the tier list, the graph(Occurrence by Tier %) should decrease from A(s) to B tier to illustrate the unique advantage these 5 characters have over the rest of the cast, but it is not possible due to the amount of characters that reside within B. There needs to be a separation of the upper B tiers(B+), but to do this there may need to be a reevaluation of the match ups or adding character weight to the formula(i.e a dee jay beating cammy 6-4 should have more weight than dee jay beating dudley 6-4). That being said, I still think the tier list is a strong representation of the current state of AE2012 so I must again thank Emanuelb and anyone else that put time into the tier list.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14px]It was fun taking the time to organize all the information and really look it over and see what I could take from it. I look forward to seeing if there is anything you guys take away from the data sets that I missed, so please post about anything you find interesting. If anyone needs any information that Isn't posted in the image I’d be more than happy to post the portions needed. I plan on working on a UMVC3 version and maybe a SFXT(hopefully before the new version comes out) as well, but if you’d like to see something similar from another game let me know.[/SIZE]

blufang · December 2012

Very impressive.

LoyalSol · December 2012

chubbyfingerz, post: 7845887, member: 78522 wrote:

I'm no expert and I certainly cant argue with these guys but I feel Dee Jay doesnt get enough love. There was a thread recently about top-tier potential and I feel that Oni certainly has it, but almost at the bottom of the tier. Why are Abel and Makoto so high on the SRK tier? I don't see enough of them in the top echelon of recent tournaments.

Xian's Get won the Canada Cup and is a veritable BEAST, but he's far down on the list. I feel he also deserves more love. Gouken almost at the bottom of the list, I dont get it.

Waiting for some 2013 perks to make Hakan better... he is tons of fun to play. An anti-air normal would boost his defense and shoot him up the ranks, IMHO

The problem Oni has is he hasn't distinguished himself in any particular area of the game that other characters don't already do as well or better. His mix ups are just ok, his zoning is just ok, everything is just ok. Thus far no one has really found anything with him that separates him from the rest.

Abel is high on the tier list because he has good match ups against the low tier. Again its a problem with the way the rankings are derived from the match up numbers.

otori · December 2012

Imo abel belongs in the higher end, he just falls short to the current meta of knockdown = dead.

Rezonansu · December 2012

Juicebox should put down KOF for a minute and come show us why Abel deserves his spot. (I wish)
I wish foreign players and the American FGC (or at least the ones in the FGC who consistently stand out) had some way of discussing this list together, I think we'd see some major changes in this list - especially with Infiltration saying Rufus is still top tier. (i think Ricky and Wong might have had a play on that lol)
Also, totally off topic but i think i should change my sig back since this tier list agrees with me that Yang isn't ass :P ... that is all.

m16ghost · December 2012

Vulpes, post: 7846332, member: 57311 wrote:

Aliounes List is from May 2012 (and at least Kyoku's probably is from 2012 as well.. doesn't make too much sense for a v2012 List to be released in June11)
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/ this should prolly also be part
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/nov/28/infiltrations-top-10-characters-super-street-fighter-4-arcade-edition-v2012/ also this

Thanks, fixed and added to OP. I also added a few more top player opinions I scrounged around for.

There are probably a few random top player opinions buried deep in the old tier list thread, but it will take me awhile to find them.

Killer_Jigglypuff · December 2012

Makoto's tier placement is somewhat irrelevant in the long run. Most of the time a match involving Makoto comes down to "How well she can read you. There isn't a character in the game (aside from the grapplers) that wanna deal with her offense up close.

Sosage · December 2012

Killer_Jigglypuff, post: 7847131, member: 16517 wrote:

Makoto's tier placement is somewhat irrelevant in the long run. Most of the time a match involving Makoto comes down to "How well she can read you. There isn't a character in the game (aside from the grapplers) that wanna deal with her offense up close.

I totally follow your logic, but unfortunately, this can be said about every character. Which is why the old school way of doing tier lists relies on imagining both players in the match being, in theory, carbon copy equal robots. "How well she can read you" is not a tool or attribute that she exclusively brings to the table. It's a player trait. Yah' know?

Emanuelb · December 2012

Yeah, this is why Vryu also told me - that Makoto is very difficult to rank, so he declined to help us :(.

Anyway - Marley statistics are awesome, great job, man. I'll have to take a closer look to the charts.

Good job M16, since now we have a new thread - I have a couple of things that might be added.

First: - I wrote some kind of faq for our tier list - not much, but explains a couple of things - I think it is important to highlight how the tier list was made - it's an important difference between the way we did it and eventhubs chart (the only 2 charts for v.2012).

Spoiler:

If you think it's worth something, you can add it with our tier list. Feel free to edit it if you like.
Maybe the first part might be added in the first post ? since it's about tier lists in general - I especially liked Loyalsol's explanation about how matches are decided - I think it would help many people to understand better how tier lists work.

Second: I know this thread is specifically about v.2012 - and M16 did a good job of gathering all the tier lists available - but I think maybe we should add the more important tier lists for older versions of the game, too.
In the old thread for example - I see there are a couple of important tier lists for AE and Super that are missing - it would be a shame to be lost.
So what I think is - maybe make a separate section(s) for AE, Super and Vanilla, and only add the most important tier lists (especially those who are not listed in the older thread).
This is what I'm talking about:

- AE: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/uploads/13567697661.png - the only match up chart for ae.
- Super: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/uploads/13567698571.png - the latest chart for Super
- Super & Vanilla: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2012/mar/29/tier-rankings-super-street-fighter-4-and-older-versions/ - a collections of tier lists for super and vanilla.

Killer_Jigglypuff · December 2012

Sosage, post: 7847518, member: 1752 wrote:

I totally follow your logic, but unfortunately, this can be said about every character. Which is why the old school way of doing tier lists relies on imagining both players in the match being, in theory, carbon copy equal robots. "How well she can read you" is not a tool or attribute that she exclusively brings to the table. It's a player trait. Yah' know?

Well yeah. I've tried to provide as much info on her matchups as I could but I realized most of the time my info boiled down to "Can you keep her out well or keep her locked down? Good matchup for you. If not, God have mercy on your soul." Moreso than just about any character her strength relies on her ability to condition the opponent and make them pay DEARLY for the slightest misstep. Unlike some of the other derps though she works hard to put herself in that situation and takes risks to stay there. Which I think is fair, moreso than the others who either OS every option you have (Akuma) or rely on absolutely retarded hitboxes/copious amounts of hit/blockstun(Cammy) to maintain perpetual pressure.

And before you Aluma/Cammy mains get salty this is slight hyperbole. Refer to the avatar if you take issue with it.

IItRueII · December 2012

lol tier lists,

every character has potential to do great, just some characters requre less skill or less reads to do so.

Emanuelb · December 2012

IItRueII, post: 7848061, member: 53646 wrote:

lol tier lists,

every character has potential to do great, just some characters requre less skill or less reads to do so.

very insightfull.

AmigoOne · December 2012

Im a bit sad that the original tier list thread is going to get buried. Hopefully this one will bring plenty of interesting conversations as well.

chubbyfingerz · December 2012

I love how we're discussing tiers and how much Akuma and Cammy are imbalanced not 2 weeks after a Hakan won the Tengu cup :D

Emanuelb · December 2012

Not taking anything from Ebi, but the competition for Tengu cup wasn't that strong, and many said the lack of match up knowledge played an important role.

Eternal · December 2012

I forgot that Alioune put Cody as more well rounded than Ken in his tier chart. That gave me a chuckle.
Better in some areas? Sure. More well rounded? Lol no. Ken is more well rounded in almost every respect. Cody is far more of a specialized character. I think Alioune put Cody as more well rounded since Alioune has never had to let Cody fight since Cammy craps all over him so Alioune doesn't know the matchup beyond the first 10seconds of a round lol

Also Uryo just outright forgot to put Cody on his tier list.

If anyone wants to translate it, Uryo discusses some of his views on Sakura match ups here http://blog.livedoor.jp/uryoryon/archives/2012-09.html

Vulpes · December 2012

Eternal, post: 7848278, member: 48530 wrote:

If anyone wants to translate it, Uryo discusses some of his views on Sakura match ups here http://blog.livedoor.jp/uryoryon/archives/2012-09.html

Quick Googlecheck makes it look like everything is a bad matchup

Javed Patel · December 2012

Hahahahahaha google translate is so bad xD

"[Feiron]
Is not advantageous. Really do not have to be done is to maneuver like such un-San. Not even a place to take much damage Feiron side has not spoiled me.
Feiron guy threw pieces to lend anyway. This is about a disadvantage."

Vulpes · December 2012

Javed Patel, post: 7848523, member: 77824 wrote:

Hahahahahaha google translate is so bad xD

It's better than my japanese
Aside from things like "tentacle rape" and "train molestation"

TheGlow · December 2012

Man, I've been out of it a bit. Didn't know Cammy was ranked that high, that explains why I keep coming across her on PC.

blufang · December 2012

Lot of cammies on PC. I also notice relative to their amount of PP they are far less skilled than any other character.

Julpero · December 2012

blufang, post: 7848942, member: 6663 wrote:

Lot of cammies on PC. I also notice relative to their amount of PP they are far less skilled than any other character.

I feel that's more the case with Gen and Vega. I can't believe what points those players have racked up with their set of canned gimmicks. Two great footsie characters and they don't even bother with footsies.

chubbyfingerz · December 2012

Actually I see that more with Blankas and Bisons. I guess to each his own.

ugo_2u · December 2012

Julpero, post: 7849158, member: 37079 wrote:

I feel that's more the case with Gen and Vega. I can't believe what points those players have racked up with their set of canned gimmicks. Two great footsie characters and they don't even bother with footsies.

ehmm, if it works once its a gimmick, if it works alot then its a tech.

Azrael · December 2012

Uryo's Sakura match-up thoughts, translated.

Ryu
Advantage to a Ryu player who is perfect at his anti-airs. However that's difficult for Ryu. Sakura gets it back on the ground so ultimately this is about even.

Ken
Footies are completely different from the Ryu match. Don't like the guessing game after he hits EX Tatsumaki. Also forward kick (step kick?) and hit-confirm Shoryukens make the match difficult. Can't back dash his Shoryuken. Feel like it's a slight disadvantage for Sakura.

Chun
Chun's footies and backdash are difficult to deal with. However Chun has difficulty dealing with Sakura's jump-ins. Chun wins in footsies, but Sakura deals more damage. It's a tough fight but only a slight disadvantage for Sakura.

Honda
The key is how many of her poor-performance Hadokens Sakura can fire off. Honda can push Sakura in the corner if she doesn't take him serious. Don't bother fighting if you can't take down his neutral and forward jumps with DP. A disadvantage fight for her, but I don't have a losing record against any Hondas so I'll call this even.

Blanka
Fight this on the ground. Blanka's s.mp is troublesome. A disadvantage fight for her, but I don't have a losing record against any Blankas so I'll call this even.

Zangief
I've fought this fight a lot, and after talking it out with Cantona I'll call it even. I don't think Sakura wins this, but if Zangief's step up this game it could go in his favor. For now it's even.

Guile
A rough fight. Even if you keep up with him he can just wear you down. You have to use RH and EX HK to get in, stay in, and finish it. Sakura will never have an advantage in this fight no matter how hard you work.

Dhalsim
As a mountain hermit (is he referring to a player name here maybe?) once said this is advantage Dhalsim. Sakura has to take risks to get in. And he's got his anti-airs covered. Sak can never have an advantage in this fight.

Balrog
I think this is fairly even. They can both do what they do well against each other. Balrog can't run away from Sak's wake up game, so that's nice.

Vega
She's at a complete disadvantage in footsies against him, but if Sak gets in she can take advantage of his poor defenses. I'd call this disadvantage Sak, but again there are no Vega's I have a losing record against so I'll call this even.

Sagat
Finish your combos with Sakura Otoshi for great set-ups and big damage - advantage Sak. Of course she loses when she can't get in.

Bison
This is rough. Scissor Kick pressure of course, as well as MK and his set-ups off throws are difficult to read. Bison has problems dealing with her jump-ins, but overall I'd say Bison has a solid advantage.

Viper
It's hard for Sak and her poor defenses to change things up with Viper on the offense. If she gets knocked down she can lose the whole match. And it's hard to catch a runaway Viper. This is definitely advantage Viper, and a big one at that.

Rufus
Advantage Sak on the wakeup game and her damage output. If you do it right EX Messiah is nothing to worry about. A lot of people hate this fight, but if you get used to it it's pretty fun. This is possibly the most fun fight for Sakura.

Fuerte
Both characters don't like getting caught in each other's traps. I don't really have a gameplan against him, but I don't have a losing record against any Fuerte's so I'll call this advantage Sak. I like fighting against Fuerte.

Abel
This one's hard. For both I think. But I don't have a losing record against any Abel's so I'll say slight advantage Sak.

Akuma
This asshole's disadvantage Sak. He nullifies everything that's good about Sak! He's got great set ups from Demon Flips, unblockables, and great offense and defense. This guy's a pain. He's definitely in Sak's worst 5 matches.

Seth
Definitely disadvantage Sak. But if you land one big combo against him you have a chance. Footsies don't work against him so she'll never have an advantage against him.

Cammy
Don't think she has an advantage against her. Like Viper, get knocked down once and that can be the whole match. Sucks that EX DP doesn't work well against her. But Sak has a good wakeup pressure game against her so get her once and you can fight back. Take away her ability to FADC Spiral Arrow and drop her vitality by 50, please. Slight disadvantage to disadvantage.

Fei Long
She doesn't have an advantage against him. There aren't any Fei Long's who can do footsies and the things that Fuudo does. It's hard to take damage against Fei unless the Fei player isn't taking you seriously enough. And who the hell thought it was a good idea to give him a command throw? Disadvantage Sak.

Dee Jay
Hmm...I dunno. I've never fought against a solid Dee Jay. Slight advanatage Sak, I think.

Hawk
Gonna go with advantage Sak. Fight it right and it's a hard match for Hawk. This fight will teach you how to properly use her DP.

Sakura
The mirror match. Not to brag but I think I'm the best Sak in the world. Lots of people try to challenge me with their Sak's. But I'm not gonna lose to them.

Rose
Most definitely disadvantage Sak. Personally I put her in my top 5 worst matches for Sak. Her character design just keeps Sak in check, and EX Spiral is strong.

Gen
Probably disadvantage Sak. His ground game is just too strong, and she can't keep him out. His back dash is also good. However he's low vitality, so if you can endure you can press him as well. I'm going to run some sets against Amiyu's Gen.

Dan
Probably not a disadvantage, but a lot harder than you'd think. I think slight advantage, but I don't have a lot of experience with this match so I don't really know.

Guy
Advantage. A running Guy is a pain. Some of his hitboxes are annoying. This is a fight you'll want to fight on the ground.

Cody
This is a good fight. Personally I like this fight a lot. If I have to choose, slight advantage Sak.

Ibuki
I've only fought against Sako, but I'd say slight disadvantage. Both characters have annoying wakeup pressure games. Ibuki's is difficult to read in the middle of the screen, and impossible in the corner (or is he saying unblockable...?). Well, both have unblockables, lol.

Makoto
Advantage if Makoto is using U1, slight disadvantage if U2. What makes it a disadvantage is that Sak doesn't have a safe option against either Karakusa or Tsurugi. You can lose to any Makoto. Mak can escape the corner with U2 then you can't do anything to her.

Dudley
Don't have much experience with this, but I think it's advantage Sak. But sometimes you'll lose on the wakeup game. It's pretty much paper/rock/scissors.

Adon
Definitely disadvantage. He's in the worst 5. It's hard to fight against a clean, streamlined Adon. Sak can hit powerful combos against him so you have a chance. Who the hell thought of making his stand roundhouse two hit and giving Jaguar Kick armor break?!

Hakan
Hmm...don't really know, but advantage Sak? Don't have a lot of experience, so I have no clue, lol.

Juri
A lot of people call this advantage Sak, but really? If she has one it's only slight. It's a pain-in-the-ass fight for both, but Juri can lose the whole thing on one bad call. But I don't see that many Juri's losing, so slight advantage.

Yun
Disadvantage. How easily he can take to the skies is a real pain. It's impossible to bait on back dashes and avoid the command throw. Kazunoko said it best - Yun's a very easy character to use. His dive kick is way too fast.

Yang
Slight advantage. It's a good fight. But the difference in damage output is just terrible. His dive kick and mk are a pain. And of course the command throw.

E.Ryu
Both have vicious wakeup pressure games in the corner. Personally I think this is a good fight. They both can lose in an instant. I'd say a slight advantage for Sak.

Oni
Both again have great wakeup pressure games in the corner. If you're not used to this fight he can kill you in an instant. I'd say even or a slight advantage.

And that's all of them! But Sak is a great practical-use character, so advantages and disadvantages don't matter that much. This is just my opinion, so naturally it'll be different from everyone else's, so don't get too worked up over it.

And the gameplay strategies and matchups are still changing, so yeah.

ThatJollyOlBastid · December 2012

Yang higher damage than Sakura?

The mirror match. Not to brag but I think I'm the best Sak in the world. Lots of people try to challenge me with their Sak's. But I'm not gonna lose to them.

gold.

Hyun Sai · December 2012

Azrael, post: 7850712, member: 716 wrote:

Dee Jay
Hmm...I dunno. I've never fought against a solid Dee Jay. Slight advanatage Sak, I think..

Even if I no longer play this game, as a former Dee Jay player, I'm always sad to read this...

Eternal · December 2012

ThatJollyOlBastid, post: 7850715, member: 46709 wrote:

Yang higher damage than Sakura?

Actually if you read it carefully he is saying that Yang's damage being so low is what makes it a pain for Yang which is why Uryo puts it at a slight advantage for Sakura.

Azrael, post: 7850712, member: 716 wrote:

Uryo's Sakura match-up thoughts, translated.

Overall the tone of the post makes it sound like most of the matches he is saying "4.5-5.5 disadvantage" not a massive disadvantage except on a handful of characters (Viper/Akuma/Adon/Cammy/Fei sound like he feels are 4-6 to 3.5-6.5 or in the case of Cammy and Akuma 3-7). Also a lot of what he says gives me the impression that he doesn't like to ever call a match even. He'd rather say that Sakura is at an advantage or a disadvantage than claim the match is even.

AnneIFrank · December 2012

One of the things about Sakura I feel is if you put her on a MU chart she'll fall somewhere in the 10-15 range because she does have some trouble in a number of MUs and has issues with the top 5. If I just had to call tiers from experience I'd put her in the 5-10 range though because she's so explosive in damage and momentum that she can take 1 mistake in a slightly disadvantageous MU and win. I guess he had a similar sentiment towards the end of his blog post.

Javed Patel · December 2012

Wth... Uryo is being really negative in his notes... he said he feels Sakura is #1 before... or was that HumanBomb?... I forget now...

, post: 7850712, member: 716" wrote:

Seth
Definitely disadvantage Sak. But if you land one big combo against him you have a chance. Footsies don't work against him so she'll never have an advantage against him.

LOL, looks like some people are gonna disagree with this one ;)

Superstar · December 2012

Eternal, post: 7850725, member: 48530 wrote:

Overall the tone of the post makes it sound like most of the matches he is saying "4.5-5.5 disadvantage" not a massive disadvantage except on a handful of characters (Viper/Akuma/Adon/Cammy/Fei sound like he feels are 4-6 to 3.5-6.5 or in the case of Cammy and Akuma 3-7). Also a lot of what he says gives me the impression that he doesn't like to ever call a match even. He'd rather say that Sakura is at an advantage or a disadvantage than claim the match is even.

Where does "Slight disadvantage to disadvantage." come off as 3-7. It sounds more 4-6, which is what I would call it. Worst Sak mu are Akuma/Adon/Seth/Viper/Guile/Sim/Rose according to Uryo.
And before people start saying Uryo thinks Cammy needs SA and vitality nerfed, he also thinks Fei's command grab should be removed along w/Adon's 2hit standing RH and armor breaking JK.

otori · December 2012

She also has a lot of comeback potential with high damage and stun output, plus top 3 shenanigans on wakeup with comboability into untechable knockdowns and j.hp's hitbox.

Javed Patel · December 2012

ThatJollyOlBastid, post: 7850715, member: 46709 wrote:

snip

Taking in mind this was casuals and Uryo had to leave pretty quick, but he still lost.

Azrael · December 2012

If I had to guesstimate MU numbers based on how Uryo phrased it...

Ryu 5
Ken 4.5
Chun 4.5
Honda 5
Blanka 5
Zangief 5
Guile 4
Dhalsim 4
Balrog 5
Vega 5
Sagat 6
Bison 4
Viper 3.5 or 3
Rufus 6
Fuerte 6
Abel 5.5
Akuma 3.5 or 3
Cammy 4.5 or 4
Fei 4
DJ 5.5
Hawk 6
Rose 4
Dan 5.5
Guy 6
Cody 5.5
Makoto 6/4.5 (depends on the ultra)
Dudley 6
Adon 4 or 3.5
Hakan 6?
Juri 5.5
Yun 4
Yang 5.5
E.Ryu 5.5
Oni 5 or 5.5

Again, this is only my best guess based on what he said/how he said it, and how we've been treating MU numbers so far. He didn't use numbers at all, and just talked in terms of slight or solid advantage/disadvantage.

VolcanicAkuma55 · December 2012

akuma has an unblockable on sakura? i missed that. lol and im just about to fight a sakura

The Breaker · December 2012

Sure is a lot of use of "never."

And before people start saying Uryo thinks Cammy needs SA and vitality nerfed, he also thinks Fei's command grab should be removed along w/Adon's 2hit standing RH and armor breaking JK.

Oh, well then.

Eternal · December 2012

otori, post: 7850803, member: 13700 wrote:

She also has a lot of comeback potential with high damage and stun output, plus top 3 shenanigans on wakeup with comboability into untechable knockdowns and j.hp's hitbox.

Frankly almost all of her jumping hitboxes are insanely good while also being fast and having decent amount of active frames.

Man Cody has huge hurtboxes.

Emanuelb · December 2012

Hmm, it seems Uryo doesn't think much of Sakura - quite a few bad matches, including some 3-7 ones.
Regarding Sakura, I talked with DBJoseph - I finally found his id. I said he will get back to me with his thoughts on Sakura matches, so hopefully we will have something more to discuss.

And about Oni - if you guys agree, I think we should do some small changes to his matches, after Metalmusicman input:

- Balrog: 5-5 to 4-6 - both mmm and 3nigmatic agree with this change, so I think this one is simple.
- Cammy: 6-4 to 5-5: ok, it seems most people don't think Oni beats cammy, so making it 5-5 is fair.
- Ibuki: 6-4 to 5-5.
- M. Bison: 4-6 to 3-7
- Hawk: 5-5 to 4-6 - both mmm and Blueblazer think this match is in hawk's favour.
- Vega: 5-5 to 4-6

If anybody else has thoughts, disagreements, etc on these matches...

Javed Patel · December 2012

If you can somehow get in contact with HumanBomb that would be nice, he has a very high opinion on Sakura I believe and could probably go into more depth.

Shinebox · December 2012

Emanuelb, post: 7850996, member: 50800 wrote:

Hmm, it seems Uryo doesn't think much of Sakura - quite a few bad matches, including some 3-7 ones.
Regarding Sakura, I talked with DBJoseph - I finally found his id. I said he will get back to me with his thoughts on Sakura matches, so hopefully we will have something more to discuss.

And about Oni - if you guys agree, I think we should do some small changes to his matches, after Metalmusicman input:

- Balrog: 5-5 to 4-6 - both mmm and 3nigmatic agree with this change, so I think this one is simple.
- Cammy: 6-4 to 5-5: ok, it seems most people don't think Oni beats cammy, so making it 5-5 is fair.
- Ibuki: 6-4 to 5-5.
- M. Bison: 4-6 to 3-7
- Hawk: 5-5 to 4-6 - both mmm and Blueblazer think this match is in hawk's favour.
- Vega: 5-5 to 4-6

If anybody else has thoughts, disagreements, etc on these matches...

So 164.5... which means Oni is the worst character in the game.

Vulpes · December 2012

I don't think without legit Oni mains of which there are Combofiend and that's it there'll ever be useable input on that guys matches.
I have no idea whether the Juri matchup is 6-4, 5-5, 3-7 against him or whatever, so I can't exactly disagree with the noted 5-5, but also wouldn't disagree if anything else was there.

Killer_Jigglypuff · December 2012

Well I would be fine with Adon's RH being one hit. He already has a million ways to break armor anyway.

Rezonansu · December 2012

Emanuelb, post: 7850996, member: 50800 wrote:

- Hawk: 5-5 to 4-6 - both mmm and Blueblazer think this match is in hawk's favour.

Someone want to explain this more? DP beats condor dive if you want to react, condor spire as well (i think). If you dont want to react, he can punish condor dive on block with forward fierce (and it seriously does hurt). He can also play a pretty good game of keep away with his air dashes and his fireballs at certain spaces. At close ranges, if the Oni is good (meaning he won't drop it) easy TC into tatsu for a knockdown and then run away again, and Oni does pretty good damage on his combos as it is.
Hawks favor? Arguable even or in Oni's favor at least. Hawk should have a hard time. his swipe gimmick isn't his only tool.

SSF4 AE 2012 Tier List Thread (OP last updated May 2013)

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