SSF4 AE 2012 Tier List Thread (OP last updated May 2014)

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  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 577
    So let me get this straight, I'm the entire Cammy forum and you've built up a fantasy version of me that's been saying she's not top tier. Worst I've said is she's just outside top 5, now that the game's evolved a bit I have a lower opinion of where Viper stands with the other top tiers.
    Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid Non-stop Climax! Joined: Posts: 19,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    James Chen syndrome
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 577
    edited February 2013
    What ever revisionist history you want to play. *shrug* I even get messaged by randoms on XBL about how I say Cammy isn't good. lulz.

    And yeah... from last March "Yes that's pretty good but so are Viper, Seth, Akuma and Fei in the same way." Opinion has been pretty consistent. Don't suppose Vess will say anything about him being wrong in that above post. 
    Post edited by m2thebrady on
    Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 6,830 ✭✭✭✭
    i want a ssf4 gen/ae 2012 yang style nerf for cammy.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 577
    >:(
    Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
  • AzraelAzrael Epic Calling! Joined: Posts: 3,223 ✭✭✭
    Either way I doubt this game is getting any sort of rebalance/patch.
    chubbyfingerz:
    There are few characters in this game which everyone wishes they could play but simply can't adapt to. Say, Hakan, for instance. Makoto is chief among them. She's the equivalent of building a racecar and saying "give me 7 gears and NO brakes, no hydraulic steering, no seatbelt or helmet, none of that gay shit, cause I'm going for it with all I got and if I fuck up then fuck it". Cammy is like driving a Lamborghini with autopilot while you listen to One Direction and talk to your girlfriend on the phone "oh wait honey there's a curve coming up let me push a button here.... done. So, then your boss said what? Oh my god, what a bitch she is!"
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I cant wait for cammy to get nerfed.oh man this shit is gonna be great when i see the salt in the cammy forums.
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 7,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Frankly, other than the hit advantage on some of her normals that got buffed in AE, and her hitbox / frame advantage on EX Cannon Strike needing to be toned down by about 1/3rd I'd say cammy is fine if they buff everyone else a fairly decent amount.
  • the saviourthe saviour Joined: Posts: 167
    Cammy doesn't need a yang style nerf, it's just the EX cannon.

    People said Yun's EX lunge was stupid, and it got nerfed quite a lot. Well EX cannon is about 10 times worse when you look at how people are using it now.
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    and what about

    -Unblockables
    -ridiculous frame advantage on her  EX cannon strike
    -weird hitbox on air cannon strike(she does it towards the left but ends up on the right)
    -and the weird active frame on her dp
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 7,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The unblockables are a universal problem, though frankly we are getting off topic. Discuss th is in the wishlist thread if you want to continue.
  • ugo_2uugo_2u Joined: Posts: 3,556 ✭✭✭
    Cammy is top tier but I don't believe she is over powered in anyway. She is still beatable. You just have to out smart her and take the path of least damage. I guess i speak for myself but I believe the game is great the way it is. If you have a bad matchup just counterpick that shit. Stop giving lame excuses. I came third in a recent tourney and meeting up all the bad matchup for Gen in the tournament, first was a honda that is 7-3 in honda favor and I got thrown to losers. Next I met a guile player which is bad for Gen again, next I met a cammy which is worse, then meeting a dhalsim which is even worse only to meet another honda at losers finals. Now on a good day I will rave about matchup but I decided using gen is shooting myself in the leg. Time is learn the top tiers in this game and counter pick that shit.
    ssf4ae v2012 tutorial archive http://www.padstickgaming.com/
    Footsie Guide by Maj PDF: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30414642/footsie guide.pdf
    Follow me on Twitter @ugo_2u
  • The-OlympianThe-Olympian 4 the Glory of Gaea Joined: Posts: 2,010 ✭✭
    I agree. Guile vs gen is really bad. I absolutely hate this mu.
    What of the Hunting, Hunter Bold? Brother, the Watch was Long and Cold.
    What of the Quarry ye went to Kill? Brother, He Crops in the Jungle Still.
  • JulperoJulpero Joined: Posts: 759 ✭✭
    ugo_2u said:
    Cammy is top tier but I don't believe she is over powered in anyway. She is still beatable. You just have to out smart her and take the path of least damage. I guess i speak for myself but I believe the game is great the way it is. If you have a bad matchup just counterpick that shit. Stop giving lame excuses. I came third in a recent tourney and meeting up all the bad matchup for Gen in the tournament, first was a honda that is 7-3 in honda favor and I got thrown to losers. Next I met a guile player which is bad for Gen again, next I met a cammy which is worse, then meeting a dhalsim which is even worse only to meet another honda at losers finals. Now on a good day I will rave about matchup but I decided using gen is shooting myself in the leg. Time is learn the top tiers in this game and counter pick that shit.
    Cammy is a worse match-up than Guile? I don't buy that.
    Gfwl: jholtta
    Psn: julpro

    ssf4 ae 2012: Yang, Gen
    kof 13: Kensou, EX Kyo, Ryo, Takuma, Hwa Jai, Chin
  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 198
    And people wonder why Capcom doesn't listen to non-Japanese change requests.... I don't mind complaints/critiques at least make them reasonable/believable. 
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Julpero wrote: »
    ugo_2u said:<br />
    Cammy is top tier but I don't believe she is over powered in anyway. She is still beatable. You just have to out smart her and take the path of least damage. I guess i speak for myself but I believe the game is great the way it is. If you have a bad matchup just counterpick that shit. Stop giving lame excuses. I came third in a recent tourney and meeting up all the bad matchup for Gen in the tournament, first was a honda that is 7-3 in honda favor and I got thrown to losers. Next I met a guile player which is bad for Gen again, next I met a cammy which is worse, then meeting a dhalsim which is even worse only to meet another honda at losers finals. Now on a good day I will rave about matchup but I decided using gen is shooting myself in the leg. Time is learn the top tiers in this game and counter pick that shit. <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Cammy is a worse match-up than Guile? I don't buy that.

    i agree. match is close to 5-5.
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • john4pjohn4p block OS reversal Joined: Posts: 568 ✭✭
    edited February 2013
    m16ghost said:
    SRK Community Tier list (updated November 2012):
    http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5418/tierlistfinal.png

    High: Cammy, Akuma, Seth, Adon, Fei Long
    Mid: Abel, Honda, Viper, Makoto, Ibuki, Rufus, Sakura, Balrog, Guile, Ken, Vega, Yun, Blanka, Ryu, Chun Li, Rose, Juri, El Fuerte, Sagat, M. Bison, Cody, Gen, Dee Jay, Guy, Dhalsim, Yang, Evil Ryu, Zangief
    Low: Dudley, Gouken, Hakan, T Hawk, Oni, Dan
    (thanks Emanuelb for organizing this)
    Out of the community tierlist's top ten Ibuki beats Cammy, Adon, Akuma, Rufus 6-4 and Seth 5.5-4.5. The remaining five are 5-5 matchups.
    Should be put in high/top tier. Her only really terrible matchup is Bison.
    Post edited by john4p on
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Alright, let's discuss a little about E. HONDA.

    I recently spoke with twg Arthur, a good Honda player (top 64 at Evo), and he gave me his oppinion about Honda's matches. I will list here his changes, plus some of my thoughts (honda on the left):

    - Abel:  5-5 to 6-4
    Mr. Snk and Nah Frenchie think the match is 6-4, too.
    801 Strider - 5.5-4.5
    Juicebox, Mike Chow and Cuongster - 5-5.
    Mike chow's argument:
    Spoiler:
    abel vs honda: i actually hate this matchup, but thats a personal thing, mainly since honda players can never be conditioned. The big thing is mainly step kick (as always). Honda can bully abel pretty well with jab xx hands pressure, but he has to walk forward to do this, which leaves him open to getting kicked in the chest. If your spacing is good, you can keep the match at a range where honda can't do anything dangerous without walking forward, which means he's left without charge and has to use stand rh to keep you from spacing him. Once he's forced to use st. rh, he's leaving himself open for a focus crumple or an FA dash forward punish. If he scouts this out, he can punish you with jab xx hands, but the damage output for abel using the correct option here beats honda's, not to mention the potential damage off the knockdown he gets. Honda can still jump pretty well, but the nerf to jump strong makes it much easier for abel to deal with; you can almost always trade normals with him as long as you're spaced right (cr. fwd or cr. fierce, depending on the situation, same as always), or you can burn a bar and guarantee a knockdown with ex falling sky. It's true that abel has to take risks to be offensive in this matchup, but I feel like that's the wrong way to play it; if you're patient and force honda to play the ground game against you, as long as you aren't being consistently outplayed or outguessed, the damage output is in your favor, especially when you consider the knockdown setup you get. I always play this matchup with 99 seconds in mind. Not that I think SNK's comments are necessarily wrong, but I don't feel like that constitutes a 6-4; at the very worst, its 5.5 in honda's favor, and a margin that small is basically opinion imo.

    Mike Chow made a great argument, and I also can't really think why Honda beats Abel (I play both of them), so I think the match should remain 5-5.

    - Adon: 6-4 to 7-3
    While I agree that adon match is in honda's favour, I just can't really see why Honda counter adon that hard in order to call this match 7-3. Sure, Adon can only punish H Hb and only with Ultra, but outside of this I can't really find enough reasons to call this match worse than 6-4.
    Even more, high level play doesn't support at all this number:

    Cuongster losing to Gamerbee :

      http://www.youtube.com/embed/uFb7EpTRNE4

    Mike ross losing to Gamerbee:



    Mike ross also lost to Ramenaddict at Final Round.

    So based on the fact that neither theory nor practice supports the 7-3 rating, I think the match should remain 6-4.

    - Cammy: 4-6 to 6-4 :D
     Oh, boy.
    Alioune, Cuongster and Dafeetlee think the match is 4-6
    Mr.Snk and twg Arthur calls it 6-4.
    I had a long argument with DFL about this match, I won't gonna repost all those stuff, but:
    - I'm still not convinced why cammy beats honda
    - at CC Mike Ross said on stream after beating Chi Ritthy that "Honda wins the match while standing, but has trouble once down".
    - overwhelming evidence with Honda winning (including Coungster beating Alioune)
    - One thing I would like to add: Cammy doesn't have dmg advantage in this match, since Honda has some nice character specific combos on cammy.
    Based on all this and the fact that oppinions are split, I think this match should be changed to 5-5.

    - Cody: 5-5 to 4-6 - cody players ? Otori, Eternal, Infil ? what do you think ?
    another controversial one.
    Otori, Nybb, and twg Arthur think Cody wins
    Shinbojan and Cuongster - 5-5
    Eternal and Mr.Snk - 6-4 honda
    Eternal's argument:
    Spoiler:
    Cody vs Honda is a pain for sure. There is almost no reason for a person not to just down back cody all day except for the fear of a tic throw since his overhead doesn't lead into anything. And Honda has a command throw which Cody doesn't really want to be in range for. However unlike dealing with Gief or THawk, Cody can't do a great job zoning Honda.His rocks are all slow enough on start up that at many ranges Honda can reaction headbutt before they come out and either stuff the rocks or trade massively in Hondas favor. At some ranges even fake stone can be unsafe (It is 29F). Honda's crouching hitbox is so low that a large number of Cody's normals wont connect at all (far s.LP close s.LP close s.MK close s.HK, far s.HP all whiff completely on Honda. Most of those aren't a big deal but losing his far s.HP really hurts his already weak zoning options.) Of course being a charge character Cody isn't going to catch Honda standing up often so he can't land f-HK or far standing HK since both always whiff on crouching opponents. Trades are almost always in Honda's favor due to the higher health and higher damage.

    I personally think the match should remain 5-5. I'm not sure why Honda should lose to cody - Honda usually beats frame trappers (his Ex HB is a pain), and I'm not sure how well can Cody zone Honda with a 29 start up fireball.

    - Dee Jay: 6-4 to 5-5
    Like always, everybody disagree with Da Knut here :P. But since he explained well several times why Honda wins this match, and since I haven't heard a better argument, I think the match should remain the way it is. 

    - Dudley: 6-4 to 7-3
    Ook, this one is tricky. I don't really have experience against a good dudley, and I haven't seen a high level match between 2 good honda and dudley players, so it's kinda hard for me to analyze this match.
    - This is what Cliffside said: "6-4 honda. c.lp xx hands is too free. once honda gets the life lead winning is near impossible. if dud gets the life lead then it's a real match. honda hits harder in stray hits and walls dudley out fairly easy. any character with a horizontal reversal>>> dudley"

    Problem is, from what he says, the match might be 7-3 honda. Even more:
    - I'm not sure if dudley can punnish any of Honda's Hbs (I think he can't)
    - dudley's lack of cross up really hurts here, since he has a hard time to make honda lose his charge (essential in defeating Honda).
    - Honda has long range pokes that owns most of dudley buttons (except maybe dudley's st HP)
    - dudley needs to get in to lay the hurt, and Honda excel at keeping people out.

    Based on this, I think this match should be changed to 7-3 - but I would like to hear more oppinions.

    - Fei Long: 4-6 to 3-7
    Cuongster and twg arthur think the match is 3-7
    Hnic Mike, Highlandfireball, Mr.Snk, Scunsion and Freddyloco - 4-6

    I really don't think Fei is such a bad match for honda. Sure, he can punnish most of Honda's hbs, but generally this is a match where whomever gets a life lead turtles, Fei's generally has better footsies and his ability to punnish headbutts gives him the edge, but is is enough to call the match 3-7 ? I personally don't think so, Fei Long can't go nuts on honda either, and Honda still have good options with st Hk, st HP, cr lp-Hands, nj HP and Oichos.
    I've also seen to many times Honda winning this match. The latest example:

    Akimo beating Mago


    So my oppinion is this match should remain 4-6.
    Post edited by Emanuelb on
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    It seems I can't put everything in one post, since there's a character limit :ar! (this new forum...). I'll continue here:

    - Guy: 6-4 to 9-1 !!
    alright :P
    twg Arthur's reasons:
    Spoiler:
    In Texas I've fought against 4 guy players and have run this match hundreds of times. I believe Buktooth beat me 1 out of a set larger than 20, one strong player from Texas that you've likely not heard of named Halfro has never beaten my Honda, a UFO scrub who's not been able to accomplish much (though perhaps it's worth noting that unlike other some characters, an unskilled player will not make any headway with Guy), and Adam Deats (you may recognize the name from your MvC3 guide or from one of his videos, ) who has beaten me exactly once though we've played the match well over a hundred times.
    Guy's offense simply does not work against a Defensive Honda. There's not a lot that can happen in this match from long range: just sit back and hold charge. Maybe whiff an ochio for some meter now and again to apply the lowest amount of pressure on Guy possibly enticing him to come forward. This matters most if Honda's behind in life, no Guy wants to face Honda with full bar.
    From mid range? Yeah, medium kick can beat jab, who cares? From the range where stand medium kick wins Honda can whiff punish it with a variety of attacks, or beat it clean with chop, far strong. Beyond that, a stutter step in either direction and Honda has good range again. What's mainly happening in mid range is Guy is looking for his chance to get in. Guy likes to be up in Honda's face actively doing stuff. He may take a risk and step too far and go for a kara throw, whatever, who cares. It's not like his setup after throw works against Honda. If he tries to punish Honda's walk back with a slide? Who cares? It doesn't knock down at that range, and if Honda stutters right he may end up getting a free punish for sweet damage. If Guy decides to dash slide or overhead I block the overhead on reaction. If I have meter already, it's a free Ultra 2.
    When Honda's offensive in mid range, as long as Guy is willing to backpeddle he's got an advantage. However, you backpeddle far enough and Honda will corner yourself. If Honda's ever at a life deficit against Guy at midrange he should hold charge for a second, then take a step and repeat at odd intervals so that Guy doesn't know when Honda is going to step. Patient and slow, and eventually he gets cornered at which point Honda pressures Guy with whatever. No need to excessively stick out pokes to be whiff punished, just think about it as gaining ground is Honda's goal and him losing ground via walking backward means that Honda is currently winning.
    With Honda on the offensive up close, Guy can't do much about jab pressure, so just stay on him and Honda's fine. If Honda doesn't get too close ex hurricane won't hit so Honda is free to jab away and possibly look for the Ochio tick.
    Elbow drop doesn't work well on Honda due to the slow startup of Jab headbutt as well as the arc of ex butt drop. Honda is one of the few characters that never has to worry about being fooled by "Is he going to crossup? Is he going to elbow drop?" In the event of a close jump that you're unsure of where he'll land at the particular angle where it's hard to get AA to work, just hit close fierce. It's not even hard due to his moon-jump arc, it just kinda works. "Oh, he jumped forever ago, I'd better anti air, I guess" 120 free damage.
    Guy has a few interesting things he can do. Occasionally he can punish headbutts on reaction with wall jump medium kick or elbow drop. He can make a sweet read to blast butt drops with air command grab. Guy's U2 punishes Honda's butt drop. but, uh, that's about it.
    I spoke with the other players I mentioned above. Halfro says he thinks it's 8-2. Adam Deats says it feels like 9-1, but perhaps with two top players it'd be as good as 7-3 Honda. Buktooth said "Man, they don't understand matchup chart numbers. I wish they'd take my name off of that list." When I played Combofiend in Super at Final Round a while ago he said he normally uses Guy but instead picked Makoto because of the matchup.


    Luminaire - he calls the match 6-4. His argument:
    Spoiler:
    for Honda, that match is 9-1 in Honda's favor if the Guy player has no footsies. If the Guy player DOES have footsies, that match is 6-4 in Honda's favor. This match is incredibly lame and simple, but retardedly vexing for the Guy player. Basically, Guy should NEVER jump at Honda unless Honda is knocked down, he can get anti-air'd easily by jab headbutt, EX headbutt, or st. fierce. Conversely, Honda's j. MP beats ALL of Guy's anti-air options except for EX Izuna and far st. RH. Guy has to walk at Honda, who can literally just sit there and let Guy kill himself. Guy has to poke at Honda to try and move him into the corner with st. mp and st. mk. The point is for Guy to trade his st. mk with Honda's cr. jab, because the damage exchange is in his favor. However, he has to be careful because if his st. mk is counter-hit by Honda's headbutts, Guy is instantly at a life disadvantage. If the Guy player can trade his way to into a life lead of ~150 health or more, he should instantly switch to defensive footsies and make honda come at him. Without charge for headbutt, Honda's only threat against Guy's normals is his st. RH, which hits for 140 on counterhit (OUCH!). Thus, defensive Guy Footsies will force Honda to kill himself, and Guy will win. Whenever I play Mr. SNK, he will INSTANTLY turtle if he lands any jab>hands combo, because he knows how hard it is for Guy to come back if he is down on life due to the fact that he relies on normal trades more or less in this match. However the same goes for me in that I will stand my ground against Mr. SNK if I get a decent life lead against him, and this forces him to inevitably jump at me because Guy's footsies are better than Honda's (but the Guy player has to have good footsies, which is very rare IMO lol).


    Problem is, even if Luminaire says the match is only 6-4, his argument tells another story. I don't have much experience against guy, but from these 2 arguments:
    - the match is about getting a life lead and then turtle. Honda excel at this, while guy not really.
    - Guy cannot jump on honda, while Guy has a difficult time to stop Honda's jumpins
    - Guy's only way for fighting honda is - walk and use cr MP to get trades with Honda's cr LP, while hoping not to get a headbutt. Honestly this doesn't seem to me like a 6-4 match.
    - I would add that Honda has some juicy character specific combos that works on guy, that makes his life even harder (triple hands combo works on a standing guy, giving even bigger dmg and huge meter build to honda)
    Based on all this, I think this match should become 7-3. I don't think there is enough evidence to make it 8-2 or worse - guy still has some options, but the match is definetelly not 6-4.

    - Hakan: 6-4 to 7-3 - UltraDavid ? what do you think of this match ?
    UltraDavid also called this match 7-3 honda.
    I could see this match being really bad for Hakan, since besides the fact that Honda can keep him out, Honda's HB makes Hakan's oiling really difficult.
    Riceata eliminated Infiltration  at CC:
    http://www.youtube.com/embed/YicmmoXaCy4

    So I think the match should be changed to 7-3.

    Post edited by Emanuelb on
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 7,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I don't claim to be a top player by ANY means just fyi. In practice I'm actually mediocre at best. I do think I'm good at picking apart thought processes and the game theory due to my previous experience in professional level e-sports (Quake 3 was part of the #3 team in north american continent for CTF for 2 years) but don't take my word as gold standard for tiers. Any top codys you see take theirs over mine.

    Now for Honda vs Cody my personal experience and watching quite a lot of this match up. I think a big part of it comes down to the players more than the tools. In a frame perfect world Honda has the ability to just shutdown Cody's rocks with headbutts and buttslams and can shutdown his frame traps fairly well with EX Headbutt or Ohicho (not PERFECTLY as both can be baited of course but they make Cody play cautious and that isn't really good for Cody's gameplan)

    However in a REAL world scenario, Cody can do a fairly decent job zoning Honda. The match is by far (IMO) the easiest match for Honda against a character with a fireball except for perhaps Dan. Cody needs to be pre-emptively throwing out s.LP/c.LP to beat button happy hondas that try and headbutt their way in and then let Honda come to him, the only time Cody can really be throwing rocks is when he sees Honda walk forward a little. Cody's rocks don't cause a lot of pushback on block or hit (actually they cause the least in the game for grounded fireballs) and the chip is pathetic (13dmg) but it builds meter for the occasional EX Rocks and it makes Honda players impatient. If Cody manages to get a knockdown he has to be careful on Honda's wakeup, however an OS jump back can allow Cody to punish an EX Headbutt fairly well. However in the neutral game Honda's LP/EX headbutt are completely unpunishable by Cody. Honda's c.LP alone does a good job stopping all of Cody's normals in the mid game and of course leads to HHS, the hitbox on it is better than anything Cody has on the ground except far s.MP which whiffs on Honda. Honda in the air basically flat out shuts down Cody's jump ins having better hitboxes, better hurtboxes, equal startup, equal active frames, and better damage. However honda's grounded AAs aren't as good at stopping Cody's jump ins so Honda has to be on his toes.

    Cody does NOT want to ever get knocked down (like usual) buttslam crossup or not plays hell on Cody's wakeup as they mess with FADash and Cody can't afford to end up getting a back dash instead of a forward dash. EX Zonk completely whiffs and takes far too long to recover and doesn't move Cody very far, HK Ruffian has no invincibility and his hurtbox actually gets larger on startup, and b+MP is still too slow if Honda is timing his buttslams properly. Really you gotta deal with it until you end up blocking it properly.

    The match is IMO in Honda's favor I dunno how much though. If Cody can punish impatient Hondas with fake badstone - anti air the jump in enough times he can get in Hondas head and actualy zone him with real badstones but zoning is not Cody's strength by any means. If Cody goes in for frame traps he has to keep it basic with his longest reaching options to stay out of ohicho range (stuff like max range f.MP, c.LK, c.MP) and has to occasionally just stop and block to try and bait out an EX headbutt.
    Post edited by Eternal on
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Man, this character limit is really annoying. Does anyone know if something can be done ? (to be able to post something longer ? ). anyway:

    - Oni: 6-4 to 5-5
    Nybb's argument for 6-4 Honda stil stands:
    Spoiler:
    I just wanna say that I don't think Honda-Oni is 4.5-5.5. What is Oni really supposed to do in this match? Throw his awful fireballs and eat 320+ damage jump-in combos? Try to outpoke Honda's cr.LP, s.HK, and LP/MP Headbutts? Good luck; his walkspeed isn't great, his normals aren't great, and he can't really get any damage from farther than cr.LP/LK range, so he can't try to hang out in footsie range. Should he do slash crossups or airdash xx tatsu crossups? Have fun losing to buttslam and autocorrect EX Headbutt. Bait AAs with airdashes and just get hit by headbutt anyway? I don't really see how Oni can do much once Honda has a lead. Sure, he can do safejumps and try to frame trap him once he gets momentum, but so can anybody else. Honda has trouble with characters that have effective fireball/zoning games, characters who can sit on their life lead better than he can, and characters that can just vortex him. Oni has a very mediocre fireball game and his defense is pretty bad, with an unsafe reversal and an awful backdash, and he has no vortex to speak of. Without knowing about the previous rating, I would just call this match 6-4 for Honda, but apparently somebody thinks Oni wins it...I'd really like to hear that person explain their opinion.I really don't think the fireball matters too much here. His extra recovery frames are a big deal in practice, and if Honda establishes early j.MP/j.LP then I'm pretty sure Oni's only reliable AA is early SRK...and since Oni's SRKs do damage over multiple hits, the early AA hitbox does like 20 damage. Of course, he can combo into tiger knee super demon with four bars, so that can be a problem, but I think that as long as he doesn't have full meter, his zoning has awful risk/reward vs. Honda...the extra recovery frames also means easier U1 and Super for Honda.
    Oni's damage output is indeed scary. But so is Dudley's. I think the thing I am missing here is the setups Mr SNK mentions. Is he talking about a Ryu-style OS EX
    SRK in a safejump? Because when Oni does that he whiffs through EX Buttslam. I don't know of any OS that forces Honda to block, is there one I don't know about?

    MetalMusicMan (oni player): "Might be 6.5-3.5. Mainly because of (in addition to what makes it 4-6 already) Honda's awkward hurtbox ruining combos / hitconfirms at any range but nigh point-blank. I'm not making a hard argument here, but I think it's something to consider."
    I think the match has to remain 6-4 honda.

    - Rose: 5-5 to 6-4 - Cerberus, Heavy mental ? what do you say ?
    twg Arthur and Heavy Mental think the match is 6-4
    Cuongster and Nybb - 5-5
    Filipinoman and Mr.snk - 4.5-5.5

    I think Cuongster has the most experience in this match, by playing Luffy. He usually goes back and forth in this match.
    Rose's fireball is not that effective, but she still has some really long ranged pokes and can play some great footsies. I think the match should remain 5-5.

    - Rufus: 5-5 to 4-6
    twg Arthur, Nybb, Ouroboros think the match is 4-6
    Fizzywoemac, Vivaldi, Cuongster and Mr.snk - 5-5
    Ranmasama - 5.5-4.5

    Honestly I would like to change this match, since Rufus is really annoying and I've seen Mike ross enough getting beaten by Ricky and Justin.
    BUT, thinking of this match, I can't really see why Rufus beats honda. He can only punnish fierce Hb, nj HP is really good in keeping rufus out, so are lp and ex HBs. Honda has better pokes than Rufus, and he doesn't have an answer to cr lp-Hands (cr lp beats every rufus poke). Basically it's like what Mr.Snk said: "if he gets in, he wins. If you can keep him out, you win". And I think Honda has enough tools to fight rufus
    Even more, recently Hoodaman did great agaisnt both Ricky and Justin:

    Hoodaman winning tf6 - he came from losers (put there by ricky), reset the bracket and won the tourney:
      


    Hoodaman vs J Wong (he beat him 5-4)


    So I think the match should remain 5-5.

    - Seth: 4-6 to 3-7 (or worse) - what do you think, Breaker ?
    Hmm, it seems both Cuongster and twg Arthur think this match is really really bad for Honda. I remember Breaker originally called it 3-7 too.
    I used to think this match is not that bad, since Seth's fb is not great and he has no life, but...maybe I was wrong. I think this match should be changed to 3-7, Honda doesn't really have much in this fight except for his high stamina and dmg, and I don't think this is enough.

    - T. Hawk: 6-4 to 8-2
    Hmm. I'm not sure if this match is that bad, and there's no high level play of this match up, but the more I think of it, the more I think Honda is really bad for Hawk.
    - Honda is a natural counter for Hawk - he needs to get in to do dmg, and Honda is designed to keep out.
    - I believe Hawk cannot punnish any of honda Hbs - not even fierce - which is really bad. He needs to constantly mash cr lp to preemtively stop any Hb, but he can't get close to Honda this way.
    - any blocked Dive is a free Hb for big dmg.
    - Honda has some really, really nasty character specific combos on Hawk (triple hands combo, cr lp- M hands- ext m hands- Hb for 300+ meterless on ground, and the infamous combo into Ultra 1 for 500+ dmg)

    There is not enough evidence of this match and not enough knowledge to push it to 8-2 (I'm not sure if Honda is as bad as Blanka), but I believe the match should be changed to 7-3.

    - Vega: 4-6 to 5-5
    Ok, this match is a very controversial.
    Meteo and Cuongster calls it 4-6, Jozhear, twg Arthur and most of Vega's forum 5-5, and Elcubanoloco 6-4.
    Meteo's argument:
    Spoiler:
    Kind of like the Dhalsim matchup, in Vega vs Honda whoever gets the life lead has a strong defensive advantage. If Honda gets a life lead, the match is in his favor, but I feel like he is less capable of regaining it when Vega has the life and is in his good range. Additionally, Vega can punish every non-ex headbutt with inch-forward-st.HP, if not simply the Ex.Walldive in some positions. When honda expects to have Vega in a frame trap or blockstun for a buttslam or tick-throw setup, Vega's KKK backflip gives him an additional non-backdash option that will result in a strong combo if guessed right. Vega's 5-frame cr.HP can trade/anti-air Honda at a short jump-in range that would normally stuff Vega's other options (this doesnt work in almost any other matchup for Vega). The headbutt ultra and super from honda can be air grabbed, so they cant be used to anti-air or chip an empty-jumping Vega. Vega's neutral jump HK can beat honda's jumping slaps. Honda's hitbox makes it easier than usual for Vega to do wake-up cross-up EX-Walldive (hitting Honda's back as Vega flies past him towards the wall as he gets up). Vega can space j.HP so it crosses Honda up, again this doesn't work on many characters.


    I think I will go with Meteo here, since he made the best argument. Problem with this match is that is very easy to pass Vega as an ok match. Very few thinks of Vega as a bad match for Honda, but Vega is one of the few chars that can punnish every Hb with HP and slide, his pokes outranges every Honda's ones, and he can zone Honda with his pokes alone.


    Post edited by Emanuelb on
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  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When people post videos they really need to be doing detailed analysis of what happens in the video and not simply using the final score to judge matchups.
  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Hawkan Player in USF4 Joined: Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Emanuelb said:
    -
    Hakan: 6-4 to 7-3 - UltraDavid ? what do you think of this match ?
    UltraDavid also called this match 7-3 honda.
    I could see this match being really bad for Hakan, since besides the fact that Honda can keep him out, Honda's HB makes Hakan's oiling really difficult.
    Riceata eliminated Infiltration  at CC:
    http://www.youtube.com/embed/YicmmoXaCy4

    So I think the match should be changed to 7-3.

    I don´t want to say, but first at all Infiltrations Hakan isn´t very special or whatever. He knows how to play the game, sadly not how to play with Hakan.
    He is a great player, yes that is right. His knowledge of Hakan isn´t very great honestly.

    The matchup was 7-3 back in Super and AE, now it is more like 6-4, because we start oiled and Hakans normals have improved greatly, the oil stacks additionaly.
    Hakans uncrouchables don´t work on him,that is for sure bad for Hakan, but Honda isn´t flawless aswell.
    When Honda has no meter, he is pretty prone to his opponents okizeme and jumping attacks. His Buttslam can be countered with FAs and air grabs.
    His Headbutt can be countered with U2 and some normals can stuff it too. You can easily punish a blocked HP.Headbutt with Hakans F.HK and if Hakan is oiled up, it can even knock him down. Oiling up isn´t that difficult, his LK.Oil shower is mostly safe, when Honda is far away and we still have a crouch move, that can be activated from his EX Oil shower, so i don´t see the oiling up as a issue here. Hakans chances are depending here, how he is able to force his opponent into mistakes.
    Mistakes means like wasting your EX meter or get baited into neutral jumps.
    Of course this matchup isn´t easy,despite this you can basicly counter everything that Honda has and if you can get the lifelead then Hakan has an advantage in this matchup.
    Post edited by Oilforthewin on
    Congratulations to Kimo Pamintuan for placing higher than Daigo Umehara at EVO2014.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    I had a couple of more changes, but it seems I'm not allowed to post anymore, I need my posts aproved first  :(. This forum is nuts.
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Great, now the posts appeared. I wonder if I can delete my own posts.

    Nope, but I got your back. 
    -TB
    Post edited by Trouble Brewing on
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    The last batch:

    - Zangief: 6-4 to 4-6
    Cuongster, Veggey, MachoRhombus, Snake Eyez, all think the match is 6-4 honda. Sharin even called it 6.5-3.5
    Same as with Hawk, Honda is designed to keep people out, and while gief has more options than Hawk, there's no way Honda lose to gief.
    Plus, Snake Eyez, the best zangief player in the world, was eliminated twice at Socal by Hoodaman:

    http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/358220770

    the match starts at 2:43:40 (watch those triple hands combos :x)

    I think the match has to stay 6-4.

    - Dudley: more thoughts, I can't edit my previous post so I post here:
    from Mellow, a good dudley player:
    Spoiler:
    Dudley vs Honda: 4-6 (hard) for me this is arguably dudley's worst matchup in the game.
    Dudley is the one that needs to get in, it's tough to get in and you can't jump if honda has charge, his st.HP is also nice hitbox and can beat Dud's j.HK well timed.
    Honda's best pokes are jab, st.hk, st.hp and can whiff punish dud since dudleys recovery is not so good.
    Dudley's best poke is st.HP, f.MP. st.HP is good at stuffing and whiff punishing hondas pokes on reaction just like honda can whiff punish with st.HP. Neither character can jump at each other esp with meter. Honda's jab beats most of duds pokes, which is why duds st.HP is really needed her because it's his best poke to stuff/whiff punish st.HP. honda's jab hitbox makes it really hard to play footsies with and he can cancel into hands for safe pressure or combo. honda's headbutts are safe (except HP HB which is punishable by MP MGB) but are all punishable by U1 on block. very good move to use vs dudley's who don't use u1 (which is the 100% preferred ultra vs honda for this reason alone) it will make the matchup much, much harder.
    the honda needs good defense which makes mu harder because dudley has a tough time getting in and opening up honda for damage since he's charge. hondas pokes are too good vs dudley. btw buttslams loses to dudleys cr.LK cr.MP cr.HP OS TC on the way up and meaty TC also makes dud block wake up ex headbutt. honda's command grab should be used often when forcing dudley to block walk up jab xx hands which nets you knockdown. dudley has no wake up game, and needs 3 bars to be "safe."


    So, maybe 6.5-3.5 honda ?

    Now, some proposed changes from me:

    - Guile: 4-6 to 3-7
    First, Slinkun's argument (guile player):
    Spoiler:
    I actually do not think this one is 7-3, and I'm going to reference the dhalsim matchup again in that it took a lot of Guile players almost 4 years to figure it out. Now, while Guile still wins this match, I really think it has gotten better as more advanced honda players have gotten more matchup experience. Part of this match depends on the player. At a low to midish-high level, guile's sonic booms counter forward and AA's counter all approach attempts. At a high level, it changes up.
    Let's look at the effective tools honda DOES have here. One of the fastest walk speeds, s.hk, s.hp (more on this later), empty jump, and j.mp. All of these combined do offer honda options that other characters like bison don't have in this matchup. If honda manages to stuff a boom with s.hk or get a good jump in then the match turns swiftly in his favor. This kind of thing forces Guile to use normals over booms. Stuff like backfist and s.hk can still ruin honda's day, but there comes a point that you need to learn advanced footsies to be effctive. Doing things like anticipating a backfist and hitting it with s.hp xx super from the tip of max distance. Sounds crazy, but it is possible. Also, jump ins are sort of in hondas favor unless they are really bad jump ins. A decently placed jump in will at least net you a trade with j.mp which will usually translate into a trade in honda's favor.
    Just a warning, you should not be using buttslam almost at all in this match. If you manage to beat a Guile using a lot of buttslams then you have not fought a good one. Any Guile worth his salt will hit close s.hk to AA it for 130 damage clean.
    I'd say 6-4 for Guile. The walk speed is a really big factor here. So is the j.mp / empty jump c.lp xx hands mixup. I'll never say it's even; sonic booms are hell to deal with for the big guy; but its not as bad if you can level up your footsies.


    While I respect Slinkun's oppinion, I disagree with him here. First, Honda has average speed, same as Ryu, and worse than Guile, nothing special.
    The problem with this match is that Honda has trouble with fireballs and zoners, and Guile has one of the best fireballs and one of the best zoning game.
    Honda's Hbs can't pass through Fbs, not even the Ex one, because sonic booms are too slow. Buttslam is dangerous, as Slinkun mentioned. Even ultra 1 is not usefull in this match, since Guile recovers too fast. Add a crappy focus attack, and Guile simply shutts down most of Honda's options only with SBs.
    For Honda, this match basically reduces to jump in, and mix lp/mp/ emtpy jump, and hope you catch something. The worst part is that the trades are most of the time not in your favour either, since Honda will eat a lot of chip dmg. Guile also has better footsies with his better speed and generally better normals.  
    While this match is still winnable, it's very frustrating for Honda, and I don't think any honda player can win it consistently at high level.
    I think this match is a clear 3-7 - a match where you can still win, but the odds are heavily in your opponent's favour, since he shuts down most of your options, and I think that's exactly what happens in this match.

    - Sagat: 4-6 to 3-7 (maybe 3.5-6.5)
    Another match that is simply not 4-6. In many ways things are similar with what I said for Guile, Honda has more options ag Sagat, with Ultra 1 being somewhat usefull and Hb passing through low TS. But Sagat also has the same life as Honda, so he is harder to finnish, better deffence with his DP, TK that can reset the distance, and great comeback factor. Usually in matches like these, when Honda finally gets in, he wins, but not with Sagat.
    I previously was willing to go with 4-6 since I saw Mike Ross beating S. Kelly, but while he won once, there are way too many matches where he and other hondas lose.

    - Gouken: 4-6 to 3.5-6.5
    Same story  as the previous, Gouken has an amazing fireball game, one of the best, and monster dmg. Getting in with Honda is a real chore. The only reason while I don't think this match is worse is because Gouken has a weak defence, so when Honda's in, he wins.

    I thought about what UltraDavid said, and I kinda agree with him, we are a little too conservative. A 3-7 match is not unwinnable, there is also 2-8 and 1-9.

    - Ken: this is just a curiousity, I would like to know why does Ken beats Honda. It seems there's a consensus about this match, but I'm curious, since Ken's fireball is weaker than Ryu's so he has a harder time to zone Honda. Maybe Shinebox can shade some light on this match ?

    Any other oppinions on these matches (or other honda matches) are welcome         
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  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Hawkan Player in USF4 Joined: Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013

    Emanuelb said:
    -
    Ken: this is just a curiousity, I would like to know why does Ken beats Honda. It seems there's a consensus about this match, but I'm curious, since Ken's fireball is weaker than Ryu's so he has a harder time to zone Honda. Maybe Shinebox can shade some light on this match ?


    At 11:43 there is a good match with Ken and Honda.
    Maybe you can find some facts about the matchup here.
    It seems like that Kens Hadoken is still very good here, but you have to keep in mind that he has still great AAs and his combo damage is still very high. Doesn´t Kens DP beat Hondas Buttslam and Headbutt?

    Post edited by Oilforthewin on
    Congratulations to Kimo Pamintuan for placing higher than Daigo Umehara at EVO2014.
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    You can't really auto-pilot Honda until you knock him down so I wouldn't call it 2-8, but 3-7 doesn't sound like a stretch. Seth's fireball zoning is pretty "meh" but it still works nicely against Honda because he's so...well, fat. nj.HP can often be punished with Seth's fst.HP if he tries to use it to get over fireballs in addition. While Honda has good YOLO jump ins, characters with decent DPs usually deny him those options and Seth is no exception. Honda can jump outside of DP range when Seth doesn't have meter for FADC, Super, or Ultra, but very rarely will Honda be able to actually take advantage of this since he's gonna be getting bullied by booms/fst.HP/Tanden.

    That just assumes Seth tries to keep Honda out though, which he doesn't need to half the time. I could go into other aspects of the MU but it's basically like this: Seth gets in, he's happy. Seth stays out, he's happy. Seth's at mid-range, he just turtles or jumps whatever way and ends up in a good position again - even if Honda AAs him.
    Post edited by The Breaker on
    "This game is garbage." Why do you play it?
    "Because the other garbage is cold." So you just like garbage.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Veserius said:
    When people post videos they really need to be doing detailed analysis of what happens in the video and not simply using the final score to judge matchups.

    What kind of analysis do you want ?
    I think sometimes the final score is sometimes enough. Since v.2012, I've seen high level Honda vs Adon 4 times: Mike Ross vs Ramenaddict at FR, Ross vs Gamerbee at Ect4, Ross vs Gamerbee at CEO, and Cuongster vs Gamerbee at CC.
    Mike lost 1-2 ag Ramen
    Mike lost 0-2 ag Gamer
    Mike beat 2-1 Gamer
    cuongster lost 0-2 ag Gamerbee
    3 out of 4 times Honda lost. I think this is a good evidence in itself especially when we call Honda-Adon 7-3.

    But if you want some details on those video I can try.

    On Gamerbee vs Mike and Cuongster there isn't much to be said. I don't see Honda limiting Adon's options to a degree in order to call it 7-3. Adon's JKs are still an awesome tool, and in footsie range st HK is very effective. I think these matches are a good example, since I have a hard time to see why Honda has such a big advantage against Adon.  

    Akimo vs Mago is also a great example of how Honda vs Fei match it is played. The match is really slow, very footsie based, both players being very cautious, getting a life lead being crucial. Akimo showed honda can hold his own in this match up, nj HP, cr jab and st HK being really good in this match.
    I think Fei still has the upper hand here, since he can punnish most of the HBs and he has better footsies, but Honda stilll has good options in this match, and I just have very difficult time to see why this match is 3-7.
    If you look at Mago, he is also very patient, you don't see Fei going nuts at all like in other matches (except in the end, when he became desperate) - Honda's deffence is something Fei needs to respect. The key of this match is patience (something that unfortunatelly Mike Ross lacks), and is very draining, that's why I think many people hates it.  

    Riceata vs Infiltration: while a single game, I think it is still relevant.
    - first, how many times have you seen Riceata playing honda ? for me is the first time. He is not a Honda mainer, and I doubt he would counterpick if the is not really bad for Hakan.
    - second: Infiltration knows Honda match up, he has fought many hondas before (including Mike Ross - not as Hakan, but he knows the match anyway)
    - 1st round: Riceata didn't do almost anything, he just stayed there like he didn't know what to do, allowing Hakan to get free oil. He was also caught by cr lp-grab way too many times.
    - The question that rise here is: how many Hakans did Riceata played before ? and how many good ones ? (basically how much experience he does in this match ?)
    - 2nd round: Riceata starts to use Hbs - he is punishing Hakan for trying to oil up with full screen Hb - exactly what I said - Hakan has trouble oiling up in this match, since he risks eating 140 dmg.
    - 3rd round: Riceata discovers how to beat Hakan: spam headbutts. Infiltration is simply killed by headbutts, he is never able to punish any Hb on block (can he ?), and only 1 time he punnish one on reaction.
    - Also, I would like to add that Riceata's Honda is...ok.
    - Conclusion: if Riceata who is not a Honda mainer and has no experience against Hakan, can beat one of the best players in the world by basically spamming headbutts, how bad is this match ?   
    Post edited by Emanuelb on
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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i dunno. mike ross is obviously a good player. a top player even. but do you think he "knows the match up"?

    not taking anything away from his ability. but he kinda looks like hes freestyling most of the time. hard for me to take a guy like that and use his videos for technical match info
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • The-OlympianThe-Olympian 4 the Glory of Gaea Joined: Posts: 2,010 ✭✭

    regarding damage Cammy vs Honda: Cammy damage combo (Honda specific):

    jump hp > cl hp > cr hp > cr mk > spiral mk 363dmg (corner = +spike 413dmg )
    same corner combo starting with ex strike/TKCS: 393dmg. from ex strike mid screen (no cspike) damage is 343dmg

    the combo works on cr/st honda. doesnt matter.

    the combo builds meter in the process (80% of a bar?). if i end it with lk arrow, followup jump hk is safe. in the corner followup njhp is safe. corner reversal ex headbutt is punishable. 
    What of the Hunting, Hunter Bold? Brother, the Watch was Long and Cold.
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  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Emanuelb said:
    3 out of 4 times Honda lost. I think this is a good evidence in itself especially when we call Honda-Adon 7-3.
    I don't think 4 matches with 3x the same player (who is known to rely more on fundamentals than on extensive matchup knowledge, technicalities and whatnot) really tells anything. He might just have a problem with the matchup.
    Blanka - Hawk is 8-2 because Blanka can turtle against Hawk and the latter got 0 approach options. If you find some Blanka pro that plays really aggressive in all matchups, that guy might lose every time he fights Hawk - that still wouldn't change anything about the matchup number.
    (Aside from the fact that a sample size of four Bo3's is obnoxiously small)
    Post edited by Vulpes on
    Why.
  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Hawkan Player in USF4 Joined: Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I am not going to troll, but i have something to say about what you said.
    Emanuelb said:
    Riceata vs Infiltration: while a single game, I think it is still relevant.

    - first, how many times have you seen Riceata playing honda ? for me is the first time. He is not a Honda mainer, and I doubt he would counterpick if the is not really bad for Hakan.
    You know that Honda is very easy to use? And Honda isn´t different from Blanka, they have some similarities, of course also a lot of differences, but i doubt that a Blanka player should have adaption problems while using Honda.
    Infiltration is an Akuma mainer, Hakan is his secondary character, but his Hakan is mediocre and he lacks deeper character knowledge.
    Btw Hakan was a counterpick against Blanka, because his Akuma lost against Blanka. So does it mean that Akuma loses very bad against Blanka.
    And Riceeater was helped by Mike Ross, who has knowledge about the Hakan matchup.

    - second: Infiltration knows Honda match up, he has fought many hondas before (including Mike Ross - not as Hakan, but he knows the match anyway)
    There is a huge difference by using Gouki against Honda and by using Hakan against Honda. He knows how to fight against Honda, but only with Akuma, not with Hakan, two very different characters. Coupled that with Infiltrations lack of knowledge of Hakan,it is not surprising that he lost.

    Emanuelb said:
    - Conclusion: if Riceata who is not a Honda mainer and has no experience against Hakan, can beat one of the best players in the world by basically spamming headbutts, how bad is this match ?   
    (A troll would say that Hondas only do spamming Headbutts, but i wouldn´t say it.)
    One single match doesn´t prove how a matchup should be rated.
    Btw Ebi Hakan has defeated a Honda at the Tengu Cup, so what does it mean?
    Riceeata has mainly won ,because Infiltration doesn´t really have the knowledge to play with Hakan.
    And Riceeata didn´t really destroyed Infiltration,lol.
    The problem is you can find videos that shows,how  Hakans defeat Honda and vice versa. Does that proof Hakan defeats Honda?
    No, but that Hakan can stand a chance against him.


    Post edited by Oilforthewin on
    Congratulations to Kimo Pamintuan for placing higher than Daigo Umehara at EVO2014.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Vulpes said:
    Emanuelb said:
    3 out of 4 times Honda lost. I think this is a good evidence in itself especially when we call Honda-Adon 7-3.
    I don't think 4 matches with 3x the same player (who is known to rely more on fundamentals than on extensive matchup knowledge, technicalities and whatnot) really tells anything. He might just have a problem with the matchup.
    Blanka - Hawk is 8-2 because Blanka can turtle against Hawk and the latter got 0 approach options. If you find some Blanka pro that plays really aggressive in all matchups, that guy might lose every time he fights Hawk - that still wouldn't change anything about the matchup number.
    (Aside from the fact that a sample size of four Bo3's is obnoxiously small)

    Those are not 4 matches, are 4 sets (2out of 3). Even more, Mike Ross doesn't have a problem with Adon, and he deff. knows the match up - Mike eliminated Gamerbee at Evo 2010, and he beat Ramenaddict at FR in 2011. One thing to note is that both were in Super - when honda was stronger.
    I'm not basing all my numbers on these videos, I just add them as another reason.
    The problem is, I didn't get any reasons why Honda-Adon is such a bad match for Adon. I personally cannot think of these reasons (actually I have some trouble to make reasons for a 6-4), so I take what I can. If somebody can show some light on this match up and make a solid argument why honda-Adon is 7-3, then I'll take it. But until then, based on my experience and on what I've seen in high level, I have a really hard time to call this match 7-3 (i.e. very few reasons). 

    HNIC Mike said:
    i dunno. mike ross is obviously a good player. a top player even. but do you think he "knows the match up"?

    not taking anything away from his ability. but he kinda looks like hes freestyling most of the time. hard for me to take a guy like that and use his videos for
    technical match info

    Come on, mate. Maybe mike is not exactly the kind who studies extensivelly match ups (and maybe he does), but saying that he doesn't know Adon match up is...a little off.
    Mike Ross is playing Honda since vanilla, placed 4th at Evo 2010, top 16 at Evo 2012, 4th at Ect4, top 8 at CEO, etc. He played Gamerbee at Evo 2010, and it's not like Adon is a very complex character so you don't know how to fight him. 

    Post edited by Emanuelb on
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013



    regarding damage Cammy vs Honda: Cammy damage combo (Honda specific):

    jump hp > cl hp > cr hp > cr mk > spiral mk 363dmg (corner = +spike 413dmg )
    same corner combo starting with ex strike/TKCS: 393dmg. from ex strike mid screen (no cspike) damage is 343dmg

    the combo works on cr/st honda. doesnt matter.

    the combo builds meter in the process (80% of a bar?). if i end it with lk arrow, followup jump hk is safe. in the corner followup njhp is safe. corner reversal ex headbutt is punishable. 

    That's very interesting. Honda's character specific combos on cammy:

    - cr LP- Hands- cr LP- Hands: 232 dmg meterless, basic bnb on ground from an easy hit confirm (and easy combo)
    - cr LP- M. Hands - cr MK- Ex HB: 322 dmg (1 meter, works on a standing cammy, easy combo, on ground, from an easy hitconfirm. With a jump in MP = 366 dmg
    - cl HP- cr LP- Hands- HK: 314 dmg - easy meterless punnish combo
    - cl HP- cr LP- Ex Hands- cr LP- Hands- HK: 413 dmg - 1 meter punnish combo

    M Hands combo works on a standing cammy, all others on both cr/standing cammy. If we also add that Honda has 100 more health, I think Cammy doesn't have a clear advantage in the dmg department in this match.  

    Post edited by Emanuelb on
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  • The-OlympianThe-Olympian 4 the Glory of Gaea Joined: Posts: 2,010 ✭✭
    how often do you land close hp on standing cammy? think how often cammy lands ex strike... : /
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    cl HP combos are punnish combos, which Honda can land every time Cammy does a mistake - like dropping a link - something that happens quite frequent. Plus, cl HP is a good poke for honda, quite underated.

    and how often will a cammy land a jumpin HP on Honda ?

    Mid screen ex CS combo does 343 dmg, Honda's cr lp does 322, but his combo is grounded, and I think easier (no 1 fr links). With a jump MP = 366. Again, taking into consideration stamina difference, I don't think cammy's dmg is strongly above Honda's.

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  • RoseRose DRS filipin0man Joined: Posts: 1,787
    Honestly, Rose beats Honda 6-4 or at the very least 5.5-4.5.

    There is no way Honda wins that match.
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  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Hawkan Player in USF4 Joined: Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Emanuelb said:
    Mid screen ex CS combo does 343 dmg, Honda's cr lp does 322, but his combo is grounded, and I think easier (no 1 fr links). With a jump MP = 366. Again, taking into consideration stamina difference, I don't think cammy's dmg is strongly above Honda's.

    You should maybe look at the frame advantage on block for EX Cannon Strike and then look how much frame advantage Honda´s CR.LP and J.MP have, maybe you will see something.
    Edit: Also considering, how fast she can alter her jump arc with that move and how safe it is,the move is very good(TKCS was the name i think) and by a hit confirm she gets rewarded in a great way and it is hard to counter the CS, but especially the EX version, being 14+ makes it even better and harder for her to get countered.

    Post edited by Oilforthewin on
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Yeah, Ex CS is +14 on block, so ? you wanna say a cr lp- Hands combo is hard to land, or is unsafe on block (it is not), or something else I'm missing ? I really don't see your point.

    Rose said:
    Honestly, Rose beats Honda 6-4 or at the very least 5.5-4.5.

    There is no way Honda wins that match.

    Why does Rose beats Honda ?
    I remember Heavy mental said Honda beats Rose - her fireball is really slow, Honda's jump Mp stuffs everything Rose has, dmg and stamina is heavily in Honda's favour.
    Post edited by Emanuelb on
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  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 1,993 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I saw filipinoman win this against mr.snk 
    I see luffy beat cuongster multiple times
    Myself I use to have a lot of problems against honda but now I understand how it goes (maybe not fully because I have no honda mainers to play with regularly)

    All I can say is that Honda has trouble to make Rose stay in place. Rose's movement allows her to move freely around the field if Honda tries to follow her. IMO there are a few times where honda could headbutt on Rose's wakeup or slide to disrespect her but at one point Rose might start to jump away instead of backdash or just block. Not reading Rose well could make Honda eat a punish. At the same time, Rose cannot really do anything at close range. IMO Honda's buttons at close range are better than Rose. So this matchup comes down to who can control the mid range better and I think Rose does a better job with her normals and well placed soul sparks.

    From my point of view it looks like a 5-5 matchup


    Post edited by cerberusfx on
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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Emanuelb wrote: »
    Vulpes said:<br />
    <br />
    Emanuelb said:<br />
    3 out of 4 times Honda lost. I think this is a good evidence in itself especially when we call Honda-Adon 7-3. <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I don't think 4 matches with 3x the same player (who is known to rely more on fundamentals than on extensive matchup knowledge, technicalities and whatnot) really tells anything. He might just have a problem with the matchup.<br />
    Blanka - Hawk is 8-2 because Blanka can turtle against Hawk and the latter got 0 approach options. If you find some Blanka pro that plays really aggressive in all matchups, that guy might lose every time he fights Hawk - that still wouldn't change anything about the matchup number. <br />
    (Aside from the fact that a sample size of four Bo3's is obnoxiously small)<br />

    <br />

    <br />

    <br />
    <br />
    Those are not 4 matches, are 4 sets (2out of 3). Even more, Mike Ross doesn't have a problem with Adon, and he deff. knows the match up - Mike eliminated Gamerbee at Evo 2010, and he beat Ramenaddict at FR in 2011. One thing to note is that both were in Super - when honda was stronger. <br />
    I'm not basing all my numbers on these videos, I just add them as another reason. <br />
    The problem is, I didn't get any reasons why Honda-Adon is such a bad match for Adon. I personally cannot think of these reasons (actually I have some trouble to make reasons for a 6-4), so I take what I can. If somebody can show some light on this match up and make a solid argument why honda-Adon is 7-3, then I'll take it. But until then, based on my experience and on what I've seen in high level, I have a really hard time to call this match 7-3 (i.e. very few reasons).  <br />
    <br />

    <br />
    HNIC Mike said:<br />
    i dunno. mike ross is obviously a good player. a top player even. but do you think he "knows the match up"?<br />

    <br />
    <br />

    <br />
    not taking anything away from his ability. but he kinda looks like hes <br />
    freestyling most of the time. hard for me to take a guy like that and <br />
    use his videos for <br />
    technical match info<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Come on, mate. Maybe mike is not exactly the kind who studies extensivelly match ups (and maybe he does), but saying that he doesn't know Adon match up is...a little off. <br />
    Mike Ross is playing Honda since vanilla, placed 4th at Evo 2010, top 16 at Evo 2012, 4th at Ect4, top 8 at CEO, etc. He played Gamerbee at Evo 2010, and it's not like Adon is a very complex character so you don't know how to fight him. 

    is it off? he can still win without "playing the match". all im saying is maybe he isnt the best example of how honda matches play out

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  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Emanuelb said:
    - Conclusion: if Riceata who is not a Honda mainer and has no experience against Hakan, can beat one of the best players in the world by basically spamming headbutts, how bad is this match ?   
    I've watched both mike ross and riceata play extensively and I know they aren't very technical players or particularly matchup savvy. In regards to infiltration I don't think he knew the matchup. You also have to factor in that matches are complicated. I've played Blanka vs. Juri hundreds of times, but I'm lost when I play an alt because the matchup is generally much much different.

    Also small sample size with players not playing optimally means a lot.

    If you saw mike ross's blanka this weekend you would have thought that Blanka does well vs. a lot of characters that he doesn't, but I didn't see a SINGLE player punish cr.hp from Blanka in the time I was watching. The move is -10 and is free punish from most of the cast, especially if not done at max range. 

    When people don't play optimally or close to it it's hard to judge a matchup as how it actually plays out. American players don't seem to be particularly frame data or setplay savvy and a lot of stuff slides that shouldn't.  
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    what is a setplay in SF?
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  • DaFeetLeeDaFeetLee WOW Joined: Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    This is like the 10th time Cammy vs Honda is brought up and I'm not going to repeat myself every time a new opinion shows up. 

    Setplay is performing premeditated setups after knockdowns (mostly hard knockdowns) in order to guarantee situations. 
    Post edited by DaFeetLee on
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  • RoseRose DRS filipin0man Joined: Posts: 1,787
    I've explained why Rose beats Honda like 3408310483109830983109 times and I'm tired of discussing that match up.

    Honda has a hard time dealing with Rose's normals and fireballs. All Rose has to do is slightly stay out of his cr. jab range. She controls the screen on the ground very easily and can zone Honda in world class fashion. Honda has a hard time jumping in from far ranges and ultra'ing fireballs for him is very possible though extremely risky because of the varying speeds and focus backdashes. Rose builds hella more meter. Rose can punish Heavy Headbutts and will usually actually play the match in that range. If Honda decides to medium or light headbutt right outside of cr. jab range, he's giving up distance that he wants to save against Rose.

    I've played against Honda's from all around, Mike Ross, Cuongster, Hoodaman and I will stay adamant that Rose has some sort of advantage in the match, no matter how much contention low-leveled Rose players want to assert.
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  • The-OlympianThe-Olympian 4 the Glory of Gaea Joined: Posts: 2,010 ✭✭
    U1 in this match. Honda can't jump or ex headbutt. I use aa ex st (when i dont have ultra meter) .. Ex st will switch position into safejump, then the chase starts again. Honda can't get around her keep away/pokes without taking risks.
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  • ugo_2uugo_2u Joined: Posts: 3,556 ✭✭✭
    Can someone shed some light on the honda-gen match up. Also who are the worst matchup for honda. Thanks.
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,816 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013

    Veserius said:
    Emanuelb said:
    - Conclusion: if Riceata who is not a Honda mainer and has no experience against Hakan, can beat one of the best players in the world by basically spamming headbutts, how bad is this match ?   
    I've watched both mike ross and riceata play extensively and I know they aren't very technical players or particularly matchup savvy. In regards to infiltration I don't think he knew the matchup. You also have to factor in that matches are complicated. I've played Blanka vs. Juri hundreds of times, but I'm lost when I play an alt because the matchup is generally much much different.

    Also small sample size with players not playing optimally means a lot.

    If you saw mike ross's blanka this weekend you would have thought that Blanka does well vs. a lot of characters that he doesn't, but I didn't see a SINGLE player punish cr.hp from Blanka in the time I was watching. The move is -10 and is free punish from most of the cast, especially if not done at max range. 

    When people don't play optimally or close to it it's hard to judge a matchup as how it actually plays out. American players don't seem to be particularly frame data or setplay savvy and a lot of stuff slides that shouldn't.  

    I only posted the video as an example - it's the only one I could find.
    Guys, come on, let's try to be a little constructive here. It's just seems you and Mike are complaining of irelevant things.
    Yes, neither Riceata nor Infiltration mains these characters, but this match is the only one I've ever seen between a honda and a hakan. It's the only piece of evidence I could find. I know it's not the best, but if yo give me something better, I gladly take it. If you give me a long set between Akimo and Ebi I'm more than happy, but I couldn't find.
    And I posted this video so people could have an idea how this match look like. Until now Infiltration's Hakan was praised, in another thread he was given as an example of how godlike Hakan is. Now he is not good anymore ?

    Same with Hnic Mike. Yes, it's off, man. Let me repeat: Mike Ross finnished 4th at Evo 2010. top 16 at Evo 2012 (best Honda), 4th at Ect4 (best Honda performance). He is largely considered the best honda player on this planet. And you are saying that the best honda playing against the best Adon player is not a good example of the match ? Because what ? you don't think Mike is playing adon match the way it should be ? Maybe we are not playing the match the right way. Wait, you don't even play honda or adon, so how do you know how this match should be played, in order to decide if Mike Ross is or is not a good example ?

    I'm usually posting videos as examples of how a match looks like, so people have an idea. I also pick only high level play (tournament). And I think they are usefull. Again, last year I've seen 4 times Honda vs Adon match at high level. 3 times Adon won - and it seems you forgot I also posted Cuongster losing to Gamerbee. I think this at least is raising a question about the match being 7-3. Coupled with the fact that I couldn't find a serious theoretical argument for such an advantage, I think is fair to question this number.
    I, as a Honda player, think those Adon vs honda matches are a fair representation of the match. Now, if you guys can tell me why they are not (outside of generic stuff like Mike is not playing the match, etc) I'm listening.
    Next time I won't post any videos so people stop complaining.

    DaFeetLee said:
    This is like the 10th time Cammy vs Honda is brought up and I'm not going to repeat myself every time a new opinion shows up. 

    Why not ? this is the purpose of a forum, afterall. And I can't remember Honda vs Cammy being dicussed more than twice the last year :).
    First time you accepted in the end that the match might be 5-5. Second time we had an argument, but we didn't clarify the match.

    And this oppinion doesn't come from anybody - twg Arthur is a good honda player, top 64 at Evo (I don't think anybody in this thread acomplished suc ha performance).
    So basically I have cammy players saying cammy wins, and Honda players saying honda wins. The video evidence is heavily in Honda's favour.    
    Post edited by Emanuelb on
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