SSF4 AE 2012 Tier List Thread (OP last updated May 2013)

The Breaker

being able to stuff condor dive is practically irrelevant and condor spire might as well not exist half the time

if all oni can do is punish with a forward fierce than he is shit out of luck but chances are he can punish with something involving tatsu anyway

not being able to fadc your dp on block probably means hawk can go to town if he gets in too

i don't know either character too well but it's hardly arguable with what you've presented

Killer_Jigglypuff

Any blocked slash from Oni is free SPD from Hawk. Being unable to FADC his upperflcut means Oni has to commit to getting Hawk off him. Oni can play a ganky zoning game vs Hawk but his fireball not going full screen means Hawk can just sit and whiff SPDs to build meter. Hawk also has some pretty decent pokes to throw out from midrange as well.

This one is pretty solidly in Hawks favor in my opinion. I play a fairly decent Hawk and I have never had problems dealing with Oni.

Rezonansu

Killer_Jigglypuff, post: 7851959, member: 16517 wrote:

Any blocked slash from Oni is free SPD from Hawk. Being unable to FADC his upperflcut means Oni has to commit to getting Hawk off him. Oni can play a ganky zoning game vs Hawk but his fireball not going full screen means Hawk can just sit and whiff SPDs to build meter. Hawk also has some pretty decent pokes to throw out from midrange as well.

This one is pretty solidly in Hawks favor in my opinion. I play a fairly decent Hawk and I have never had problems dealing with Oni.

So aside from slash, and other specials - no normals (in oni's case) tide this in his favor?

Not arguing otherwise at this point, thanks to that other info - but i would like the match-up knowledge. There was a recent 5v5 in japan with and all oni team apparently, against a team with both a T.Hawk and a Zangief haven't watched it yet. Would help knowing if and why the Oni players lost that one.

edit: going to training room to test out some scenarios and options to see if i can produce some legit information for these two.

VolcanicAkuma55

^^ ganky?

Rezonansu

VolcanicAkuma55, post: 7852107, member: 55889 wrote:

^^ ganky?

I mean all for information from better players and all, but this is a discussion thread and im not sure if we've seen enough Oni to seriously knock him down in some matchups.

Killer_Jigglypuff

By "ganky" I meant barely effective and can be made up for really quickly once Hawk gets in.

blufang

1. Vulpes, Shinochan and Wao of Japan are legit Oni's...excellent high level players.

2. In the Oni forums, someone quoted Daigo as calling Oni the worst character in the game.

3. I guess Dan can celebrate if those numbers are true, then he is no longer the joke of Street fighter.

Julpero

ugo_2u, post: 7850508, member: 42313 wrote:

ehmm, if it works once its a gimmick, if it works alot then its a tech.

I know that but most of the things the guy used were just obvious lag mix-ups. His ground game consisted of mostly just standing there until he figured was a good time to jump.

Emanuelb

Shinebox, post: 7851263, member: 19918 wrote:

So 164.5... which means Oni is the worst character in the game.

Pretty much...it seems Dan is no longer the worst char.

Vulpes, post: 7851330, member: 57311 wrote:

I don't think without legit Oni mains of which there are Combofiend and that's it there'll ever be useable input on that guys matches.
I have no idea whether the Juri matchup is 6-4, 5-5, 3-7 against him or whatever, so I can't exactly disagree with the noted 5-5, but also wouldn't disagree if anything else was there.

We do what we can. Untill the day I'm able to contact Combofiend...

Shinebox

For January I think we might want to reconsider some more matches like Ryu and Akuma to 5-5. Also Sakura, She is easily our most over rated character and according to what Uryo has said she has several even match ups which contradicts our list

Also I recall when I said Ken vs Sakura was in his favor and settled for even. Skatan said she has a slight advantage, Uryo says Ken has a slight advantage. I would wager Uryo is playing better Ken players in Japan.

Also I think Capcom trolled us by making the strongest character in the game (Akuma) the worst character in the game in his stronger form (Oni)

AnneIFrank

I feel Sakura's actual placement is about right, maybe only 1-2 spots off. I do disagree with a few of her MUs myself, but she's one of the better placed characters I think.

Azrael

I originally argued slight advantage for Chun against Sak. Uryo's thoughts on the matchup pretty much mirror what I said.

atothex

Sakura is placed about right. she just has the same tournament issues as Honda. beats borderline irrelevant people like juri, hawk, hakan... loses to shotos.

edit: and her worst matchup being guile is particularly relevant, since one of the best sakuras in the states consistently runs into the best guile on earth.

Shinebox

atothex, post: 7854764, member: 63103 wrote:

Sakura is placed about right. she just has the same tournament issues as Honda. beats borderline irrelevant people like juri, hawk, hakan... loses to shotos.

edit: and her worst matchup being guile is particularly relevant, since one of the best sakuras in the states consistently runs into the best guile on earth.

Shes a great character capable of being "considered" top ten, but her final numbers (after we get more input) do not support that spot shes in. Unless everyone else also drops. If we change one of those 6-4 to 4.5-5.5 (Vega according to Uryo) she will go from 10th to like 17th

See what Uryo had to say about Juri? I also play Juri, my roomate is a Juri main and the Sakura match up is not that bad, its barely in Sakuras favor and I'm sure Uryo is also playing better Juri players as well. Outside of Japan there is only one or two Juris that are actually competitive.

atothex

yeah sorry about my American bias. you're right, Japanese juris are both more numerous and better. but that being said, one guy's list is hardly gospel. didn't dieminion say guile had like 2 winning matchups?

CapMaster

Hey guys, can someone help me clear up certain concepts?

I've seen in this thread, and read and heard in other places, that Yun is "easy to play/learn." Where did this conception come from? Why is he viewed this way?

Also, can someone explain why Dee Jay's wakeup is considered poor? Is there a flaw in his upkicks/EX upkicks that I am not seeing?

Vulpes

Shinebox, post: 7854971, member: 19918 wrote:

my roomate is a Juri main and the Sakura match up is not that bad, its barely in Sakuras favor

What do

hagenNORKANOIA

CapMaster, post: 7855023, member: 703 wrote:

Also, can someone explain why Dee Jay's wakeup is considered poor? Is there a flaw in his upkicks/EX upkicks that I am not seeing?

You ever played a blanka? I can do cr.lk xx elec mixups and you cant do shit

Shiny McShine

Yeah, DJ is pretty much free to crouching lows and his upkicks are pretty easily safe jumped, even the EX one.

Emanuelb

CapMaster, post: 7855023, member: 703 wrote:

Hey guys, can someone help me clear up certain concepts?

I've seen in this thread, and read and heard in other places, that Yun is "easy to play/learn." Where did this conception come from? Why is he viewed this way?

Also, can someone explain why Dee Jay's wakeup is considered poor? Is there a flaw in his upkicks/EX upkicks that I am not seeing?

- Yun: the conception came form AE, when yun was a powerhouse - very strong (many considered him broken) and he was quite easy to learn/play.
Now he is no longer that strong, but about being easy - I don't know. What I heard is that his combos aren't that difficult.

- Dee Jay: yes there are 2 things about upkicks:
1. they don't hit crouching characters
2. they are not fadcable
these 2 makes them a very risky option on wakeup.

LoyalSol

Yun is a little more difficult because his tools aren't as brainlessly easy to use, but he is still good.

Rezonansu

LoyalSol, post: 7856740, member: 12848 wrote:

Yun is a little more difficult because his tools aren't as brainlessly easy to use, but he is still good.

Referring to the ex dash punch into ultra 1 mid screen type of brainless?

otori

Or, when in doubt, press mp type of brainless.

Eternal

otori, post: 7856977, member: 13700 wrote:

Or, when in doubt, press mp type of brainless.

Doesn't that also describe Cody and Makoto though? :P

Rezonansu

Eternal, post: 7856995, member: 48530 wrote:

Doesn't that also describe Cody and Makoto though? :P

Actually, in Codys case - just hold forward and press buttons.. all of them... in any order.

Eternal

Rezonansu, post: 7857000, member: 81406 wrote:

Actually, in Codys case - just hold forward and press buttons.. all of them... in any order.

Cody is high tech version of Rock Em Sock Em Robots if the opponent doesn't have an invincible reversal or teleport it just comes down to whoever can start the frame trap game first lol.

Killer_Jigglypuff

Naw man! Every time I press mp with Makoto it is a calculated..lol. Yeah that button is pretty brainless for her, just put up a wall of hitbox.

the saviour

I main Yun and I would say he's not all that difficult to pick up. His excecution and OS is easy. I just think he's harder to win with consistently compared to cammy etc. because the risk/damage output is worse. He has some horrible match ups as well (t.hawk, boxer).

Emanuelb

Ook, while we officially finnished the tier list, I still recently received some more input from 2 top players. While they are kinda late, is still valuable input.
So, both Gagapa and Hiro sent me their numbers for Bison - now we have match up lists for Bison from Gagapa, Hiro and Happy Medicine :). Unfortunatelly they only gave me the numbers, but...

M.Bison:

Hiro's numbers:

Spoiler:

- Abel: 5.5/4.5
- Adon: 6-4
- Akuma: 5/5
- Balrog (Boxer): 5/5
- Blanka: 5/5
- C. Viper: 6-4
- Cammy: 4-6
- Chun Li: 5/5
- Cody: 5.5/4.5
- Dan: 6-4
- Dee Jay: 5/5
- Dhalsim: 5/5
- Dudley: 6-4
- E. Honda: 4-6
- El Fuerte: 6-4
- Evil Ryu: 6-4
- Fei Long: 5/5
- Gen: 6-4
- Gouken: 6-4
- Guile: 3-7
- Guy: 6-4
- Hakan: 6-4
- Ibuki: 6-4
- Juri: 6-4
- Ken: 5/5
- Makoto: 6-4
- Oni: 6-4
- Rose: 6.5/3.5
- Rufus: 5/5
- Ryu: 5/5
- Sagat: 5.5/4.5
- Sakura: 6-4
- Seth: 5/5
- T. Hawk: 5.5/4.5
- Vega (Claw): 5/5
- Yang: 6-4
- Yun: 4-6
- Zangief: 4.5/5.5

Gagapa's numbers:

Spoiler:

- Abel: 5.5-4.5
- Adon: 6-4
- Akuma: 5.5-4.5
- Balrog (Boxer): 5-5
- Blanka: 6-4
- C. Viper: 5.5-4.5
- Cammy: 4-6
- Chun Li: 4-6
- Cody: 5.5-4.5
- Dan: 6-4
- Dee Jay: 4-6
- Dhalsim: 5.5-4.5
- Dudley: 6-4
- E. Honda: 4-6
- El Fuerte: 5-5
- Evil Ryu: 5.5-4.5
- Fei Long: 4-6
- Gen: 5-5
- Gouken: 4-6
- Guile: 3-7
- Guy: 6-4
- Hakan: 5.5-4.5
- Ibuki: 6-4
- Juri: 5-5
- Ken: 5.5-4.5
- Makoto: 5-5
- Oni: 5-5
- Rose: 5-5
- Rufus: 5.5-4.5
- Ryu: 5.5-4.5
- Sagat: 5.5-4.5
- Sakura: 5-5
- Seth: 5-5
- T. Hawk: 6-4
- Vega (Claw): 6-4
- Yang: 4.5-5.5
- Yun: 4-6
- Zangief: 4-6

So, for me, all shotos are easy for bison: ryu, ken, gouki, sagat because of umblockables, ex throught fireball and poke, no sakura because she can easy break ex psycho with tatsu and his combo are very high damage
for me, bad matchups are: chunli, zangief, honda, guile, deejay, yun, yang, gouken, fei long, cammy, but, i always win against honda and zangief matchup.

And Happy Medicine ones:

Spoiler:

- Abel: 6.5-3.5
- Adon: 5.5-4.5
- Akuma: 4.5-5-5
- Balrog (Boxer): 5-5
- Blanka: 6-4
- C. Viper: 4.5-5.5
- Cammy: 4-6
- Chun Li: 5-5
- Cody: 5-5
- Dan: 7-3
- Dee Jay: 4.5-5.5
- Dhalsim: 4.5-5.5
- Dudley: 6-4
- E. Honda: 3.5-6.5
- El Fuerte: 6-4
- Evil Ryu: 5-5
- Fei Long: 4.5-5.5
- Gen: 5-5
- Gouken: 6-4
- Guile: 2-8
- Guy: 6-4
- Hakan: 6-4
- Ibuki: 5.5.-4.5
- Juri: 5-5
- Ken: 5-5
- Makoto: 4.5-5.5
- Oni: 6-4
- Rose: 6-4
- Rufus: 4.5-5.5
- Ryu: 5-5
- Sagat: 5-5
- Sakura: 4.5-5.5
- Seth: 4.5-5.5
- T. Hawk: 4-6
- Vega (Claw): 5-5
- Yang: 4.5-5.5
- Yun: 4-6
- Zangief: 4-6

We now have the numbers for Bison form 3 top bison players - they all differ from each other, and from our tier list . I will check the arguments for Bison matches and post some more indepth explanations.

Shinebox

The people in Europe must be playing some really bad Ryus and Kens

SnakeAes

Is Blanka / T. Hawk really 8-2 Blanka?

I mean I can totally understand why it's bad for T. Hawk, but I never envisioned it would be THAT bad. It makes sense, but really? An 8-2 matchup? That's pretty rough.

Killer_Jigglypuff

Hawk has literally no way to pressure Blanka. Blanka can get out of everything for free essentially. No consistent punish for balls, and a huge hurtbox so all of Blanka's shenanigans work on him. Hawk literally has nothing in his favor in this match.

doubleoh

chubbyfingerz, post: 7845887, member: 78522 wrote:

IWhy are Abel and Makoto so high on the SRK tier? I don't see enough of them in the top echelon of recent tournaments.

LoyalSol, post: 7846782, member: 12848 wrote:

Abel is high on the tier list because he has good match ups against the low tier. Again its a problem with the way the rankings are derived from the match up numbers.

I'm also perplexed by this. Any matchup where Abel's cl. st. HP whiffs if the opponent is crouching is a suboptimal matchup for Abel, which is around like... hmm, more than a third of the cast or something. There are ways around it, don't get me wrong, but it's still a pain. Further, his roll vortex is easily blown up by reversals and doesn't compare to some of the other vortexes in the game. Any player using a character with decent normals can keep Abel out and make him lose a bunch of his health before he can get in.

So yeah, the way the charts are made is kind of misleading.

Strider Hyriu

Abel is gdlk, tier list doesn't lie. His whole "win a round with 3-4 guesses" game is still good. He just losses to top tier characters, which makes his tournament viability questionable. But if your character isn't in the top 10, chances are that Abel BODIES you, hard. That's why he's high on the list, not because of tournament viability, but raw match up numbers.

I still think he's still viable in our current tournament setting though, just as long as you don't run into Cammy, lol
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Strider Hyriu

Also, a reason why people are dropping Abel from their tier lists is that there is tons of anti-Abel tech... And i mean TONS. It does prevent Abel players from herp-a-derping their way to victory anymore, but it doesn't kill off the character completely. While the anti-Abel shit has been popping up, the character has been evolving, tremendously, so that evens out the playing field.

You can blame the fact that Abel hasn't placed in a major in quite a while entirely on Ricky/Justin. Those dudes are assholes and own my soul for free xD

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

C-FreePO

Strider Hyriu, post: 7861599, member: 8608 wrote:

Also, a reason why people are dropping Abel from their tier lists is that there is tons of anti-Abel tech... And i mean TONS.

Could you direct me towards this anti-Abel tech, good sir?

LoyalSol

Strider Hyriu, post: 7861599, member: 8608 wrote:

You can blame the fact that Abel hasn't placed in a major in quite a while entirely on Ricky/Justin. Those dudes are assholes and own my soul for free xD

I think they are the reasons most characters haven't won a major.

Azrael

I dunno what the anti Abel-tech is, but it seems like Abel's a victim of lack of representation. There weren't that many people repping him to begin with, and then after AE many of them switched to Makoto, who seems to be able to do the same things but better.

Veserius

Killer_Jigglypuff, post: 7861146, member: 16517 wrote:

Hawk has literally no way to pressure Blanka. Blanka can get out of everything for free essentially. No consistent punish for balls, and a huge hurtbox so all of Blanka's shenanigans work on him. Hawk literally has nothing in his favor in this match.

You don't want to shenanigan hawk, that just leads to you getting hit by a command grab and that means you actually have a greater chance of losing. You do get some bonus stuff on him like fuzzy guard setups, and upball being a zoning tool against him(lol), but in general you play him straight up.

Blanka can just outsolid hawk so hard that it isn't really a matchup, it's more can hawk make a bunch of amazing reads while blanka falls into a lazymode pattern.

SnakeAes, post: 7860519, member: 14084 wrote:

Is Blanka / T. Hawk really 8-2 Blanka?

I mean I can totally understand why it's bad for T. Hawk, but I never envisioned it would be THAT bad. It makes sense, but really? An 8-2 matchup? That's pretty rough.

I play hungbee a lot, it's a legit 8-2

LoyalSol

Bison Guile is a lot the same way. Guile just has to throw booms and hit Bison for trying to get around them. Bison's normal anti-projectile moves don't work well against Guile.

ugo_2u

doubleoh, post: 7861302, member: 69866 wrote:

I'm also perplexed by this. Any matchup where Abel's cl. st. HP whiffs if the opponent is crouching is a suboptimal matchup for Abel, which is around like... hmm, more than a third of the cast or something. There are ways around it, don't get me wrong, but it's still a pain. Further, his roll vortex is easily blown up by reversals and doesn't compare to some of the other vortexes in the game. Any player using a character with decent normals can keep Abel out and make him lose a bunch of his health before he can get in.

So yeah, the way the charts are made is kind of misleading.

ehm abel vs gen is good for abel, oh wait Gen is mid tier, moving on now

eddieW

Gouken is mid if you master him only He's like Sim. Play perfect or you can lose bc they both don't have a solid wake up.

ugo_2u

eddieW, post: 7870673, member: 876 wrote:

Gouken is mid if you master him only He's like Sim. Play perfect or you can lose bc they both don't have a solid wake up.

last time I checked half the cast dont have a solid wake up eg, E Honda, Guile, Cody, Gen, Dudley, Oni, Yun, Yang, Zangief, Viper, Chun Li, nobody is perfect so there is no perfect play, you just have to try to make good choices and minimize the bad ones. and besides everyone has a "bad" wake up until they stock up on 2 ex bars lol!, besides all things are punishable bro you just have to anticipate. The day the FGC will stop giving excuse and man up and do something about the downsides of their characters the better for all of us. If your character has bad wakeup learn how to block or choose a character that has a great wakeup and start winning. now Oni is considered dead tier until one murda fucka goes ballistic with him and then we will have the Oni train and the haters

ugo_2u

eddieW, post: 7870673, member: 876 wrote:

Gouken is mid if you master him only He's like Sim. Play perfect or you can lose bc they both don't have a solid wake up.

last time I checked half the cast dont have a solid wake up eg, E Honda, Guile, Cody, Gen, Dudley, Oni, Yun, Yang, Zangief, Viper, Chun Li, nobody is perfect so there is no perfect play, you just have to try to make good choices and minimize the bad ones. and besides everyone has a "bad" wake up until they stock up on 2 ex bars lol!, besides all things are punishable bro you just have to anticipate. The day the FGC will stop giving excuse and man up and do something about the downsides of their characters the better for all of us. If your character has bad wakeup learn how to block or choose a character that has a great wakeup and start winning. now Oni is considered dead tier until one murda fucka goes ballistic with him and then we will have the Oni train and the haters

eddieW

ugo_2u, post: 7871352, member: 42313 wrote:

last time I checked half the cast dont have a solid wake up eg, E Honda, Guile, Cody, Gen, Dudley, Oni, Yun, Yang, Zangief, Viper, Chun Li, nobody is perfect so there is no perfect play, you just have to try to make good choices and minimize the bad ones. and besides everyone has a "bad" wake up until they stock up on 2 ex bars lol!, besides all things are punishable bro you just have to anticipate. The day the FGC will stop giving excuse and man up and do something about the downsides of their characters the better for all of us. If your character has bad wakeup learn how to block or choose a character that has a great wakeup and start winning. now Oni is considered dead tier until one murda fucka goes ballistic with him and then we will have the Oni train and the haters

I main Gouken is Blocking is the best wake up lol

ONI is under rated his fireball game is pretty good

ilitirit

Has this been discussed yet?

http://www.ssfranking.com/matchup

ugo_2u

ilitirit, post: 7871647, member: 12740 wrote:

Has this been discussed yet?

http://www.ssfranking.com/matchup

what exactly is there to discuss, there is alot of data that is not available there at the moment, maybe in the future there will be something to throw some salt over

Shinebox

ilitirit, post: 7871647, member: 12740 wrote:

Has this been discussed yet?

http://www.ssfranking.com/matchup

I like this idea but there isn't enough data we can use. I doubt Evil Ryu vs Ken is an 2-8 match up for example.

I did notice that Evil Ryu vs others is considerably higher than Fei Long, Cammy and Ibuki though.

Azrael

ugo_2u, post: 7871352, member: 42313 wrote:

last time I checked half the cast dont have a solid wake up eg, E Honda, Guile, Cody, Gen, Dudley, Oni, Yun, Yang, Zangief, Viper, Chun Li

Not to nitpick or anything? But most of the characters you listed have fairly decent to good wakeups.

ilitirit

Azrael, post: 7872057, member: 716 wrote:

Not to nitpick or anything? But most of the characters you listed have fairly decent to good wakeups.

That's not a nit-pick. I mean he listed Gief of all chars...