SSF4 AE 2012 Tier List Thread (OP last updated May 2014)

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  • WryyyYYYyyyWryyyYYYyyy Joined: Posts: 2
    So much truth from EmblemLord. Y‘all niggas should show some more respect to logic. Watch Ryan‘s match agains Infil again and tell me how much Sagating he does. He has to completely ignore his character‘s strengths and play an odds stacked uphill battle. He negates the things that make Sagat Sagat. Also Sagat is terrible matchup-wise. He loses a bit to bad characters and gets BODALODIED by good ones. Ok, he beats grapplers and Honda. Small compensation :/
  • dayvon_pdayvon_p DSC_FITT3DCAP Joined: Posts: 168
    Yea, we already knew sagat lose to half the cast though lol
  • WryyyYYYyyyWryyyYYYyyy Joined: Posts: 2
    Maybe I‘m stating the obvious. It just escapes me how people can call Sagat a good character and Dudley a bad character and claim self-evidency.
  • Da KnutDa Knut Joined: Posts: 1,599
    Veserius wrote: »
    balrog/sagat, wut

    do adon and seth not exist in your copy of sf4

    I always felt Adon was overrated. And I still do. Oh he's great and all that. He's safe, has dominant normals, the whole shenanigans. But I feel Gamerbee inflated his placings.

    As for Seth..... you're right he should be in there. Guy's a turd

    "He's safe, has dominant normals..........". That is the reason why he is top 10.

    Add FADCable dp into ultra, one of the fastest walk speeds in the game and he can easily get around fireballs. That is the reason why he is top 5/6

    What is he missing? a fireball? command grab?
  • Da KnutDa Knut Joined: Posts: 1,599
    EmblemLord wrote: »
    hes so relevant one of the worlds best rogs is dropping him...

    oh wait a sec.

    guys can we stop babyin characters that don't fuckin matter? they are data. you will not hurt their feelings. if character is ass can we be real and just say they are ass?

    Gouken is ass.

    see? nothing bad happened to me.

    DeeJay is ass. Yeah that was easy :-)


  • otoriotori RTSD Joined: Posts: 6,179
    edited June 2013
    Tiers don't matter, matchups do.

    Yes, sagat gets blow up by fei, cammy, juri, dudley and akuma (other guys like viper, seth and ken are debatable, imo), but vs the other 33 characters he goes even, has advantage or completely destroys them and he has such a defining playstyle that matchups are played completely different vs him and he's effectively dictating the pace of the match (except for those folks that ignore street fighter, of course).

    So, while sagat won't be winning singles without counterpicking, he's a very strong character and even though he's high mid or mid tier he has impact on the overall balance of the game. A good sagat can weed out ryus, codys, sakuras, adons, e. ryus, etc, and other strong characters that would give the top tier trouble.

    Also, EmblemLord, you ask people to use logic, but i fail to see the one behind your argument. If you're so adamant about top tiers, why do you play sagat? Honest question, i don't understand why you'd gimp yourself willingly. I pick my characters based on whether i think i can win with them or not, assuming he fits into my playstyle. You play this game just for -god forbid- fun?
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,498
    I think 33 is way overstating it, character loses to a lot of characters. I've heard Ken called 7-3 by top Ken players in their favor, and people hate saying they have great matchups.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    I agree with the point Otori was making about matchups but not the numbers. Doesn't Sagat also have trouble with Makoto? Sagat is solid mid - upper but he def has trouble with some key matchups and has some exploitable weaknesses.
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  • otoriotori RTSD Joined: Posts: 6,179
    edited June 2013
    Yes, it's just a hyperbole (hope i'm using this word right lol) for argumentation. Him playing sagat doesn't help much because sagat is pretty ass in this game's engine and the current state of the game.

    That's just semantics though. The backbone of the argument is that a) tiers aren't the end all for character viability (sako won the hardest league in the world with two high-mid/midtiers; arcade rankings and points; multiple tournament results without infiltration, etc); b) midtier matters and has impact in the upper tier (specially in this game where the top tier isn't as dominant) and c) why the hell would you try to be a low tier hero and pick a character that you can't win with?

    It's less about sagat in particular and more about disagreeing with his view on tiers.
  • EmblemLordEmblemLord Lord of all Lords Joined: Posts: 5,781
    From a toolset point of view sagat is indeed invalidated by Gouki. He can't impose his will onto Gouki. (well...no one can really) Sagat CAN win by waiting for a mistake and guessing. That's it. Like any bad match. Sagat does not fight gouki. The sagat player fights the gouki player.

    Saying a low level gouki should beat a high level Sagat if its truly invalidation is nonsense. All chars take a high level of dedication and understanding to use effectively. Its what happens when that high level is achieved that is our concern.

    Can such and such beat such and such even though its a bad match? Sure. Will it happen often or often enough to be truly relevant in a metagame discussion. i think not
    Play me in Ultra plz. PSN is EmblemLord. Yes I play Sagat....STOP FUCKING LAUGHING AT ME!!!!
  • EmblemLordEmblemLord Lord of all Lords Joined: Posts: 5,781
    otori: I fancy myself a Sagat player and SRK seems to think im good with him sooooooooooooo yeah? anyways when the patch drops i will see where the chips fall and jump ship. prolly to gouki. he is always good.
    Play me in Ultra plz. PSN is EmblemLord. Yes I play Sagat....STOP FUCKING LAUGHING AT ME!!!!
  • metallicabandmetallicaband DP & A TELEPORT ?!! Joined: Posts: 2,330
    EmblemLord wrote: »
    otori: I fancy myself a Sagat player and SRK seems to think im good with him sooooooooooooo yeah? anyways when the patch drops i will see where the chips fall and jump ship. prolly to gouki. he is always good.
    Why didn't you do it before when he was better or even now since you're so sure Akuma will always remain da best? Or do you just like to bitch more about the character instead of dominating with him?
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    EmblemLord wrote: »
    otori: I fancy myself a Sagat player and SRK seems to think im good with him sooooooooooooo yeah? anyways when the patch drops i will see where the chips fall and jump ship. prolly to gouki. he is always good.
    Why didn't you do it before when he was better or even now since you're so sure Akuma will always remain da best? Or do you just like to bitch more about the character instead of dominating with him?

    While I dunno about Akuma still being "the best" in the update you can't deny that there has never been a Street Fighter style game where he wasn't mid tier at the very worst. CvS, Alpha, ST, 3S, SF4, SFxT all of them have Akuma at mid tier at the very worst. Now he doesn't DOMINATE by any means but it's generally a safe bet that he'll be good in any game he is in, though the level of 'good' can vary from game to game.
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  • blufangblufang Devour! Joined: Posts: 4,487
    edited June 2013
    ST: Broken
    SFA: Top tier
    SFA2: Upper mid tier
    SFA3: Top tier
    3s: Upper tier
    SF4 (all of em): Top tier






  • dayvon_pdayvon_p DSC_FITT3DCAP Joined: Posts: 168
    Akuma by design, will always be a contender in sf games.
  • JulperoJulpero Joined: Posts: 771
    Da Knut wrote: »
    Veserius wrote: »
    balrog/sagat, wut

    do adon and seth not exist in your copy of sf4

    I always felt Adon was overrated. And I still do. Oh he's great and all that. He's safe, has dominant normals, the whole shenanigans. But I feel Gamerbee inflated his placings.

    As for Seth..... you're right he should be in there. Guy's a turd

    "He's safe, has dominant normals..........". That is the reason why he is top 10.

    Add FADCable dp into ultra, one of the fastest walk speeds in the game and he can easily get around fireballs. That is the reason why he is top 5/6

    What is he missing? a fireball? command grab?

    You should also add that he has only like two bad match-ups that are 4-6 at worst and a bunch of 6-4 match-ups in his favor and some that are possibly 7-3.

    He also happens to have instant-air jaguar kick, which he can use to get around fireballs with and combo afterwards, without using any meter. Or then use it like TKCS, to beat crouch-tech or throw attempts when applying pressure up-close.

    It's not just Gamerbee that makes him look top-tier. If anyone wants to see Adon's potential they should check out a Japanese player called Mukii. He has like 280k points at the arcades and for a reason. I don't think he's better than Gamerbee but his Adon is more advanced.
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  • FrostyAUFrostyAU Lynx in your sinks Joined: Posts: 8,537
    dayvon_p wrote: »
    Akuma by design, will always be a contender in sf games.

    He's only mid tier in SFxT and SFIII.
    2 Kings 2:24
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2013
    FrostyAU wrote: »
    dayvon_p wrote: »
    Akuma by design, will always be a contender in sf games.

    He's only mid tier in SFxT and SFIII.

    SFxT he is mid tier but that is mostly because other characters above him are so good (and he is actually shifting upward as you've seen. So he may be higher than straight mid tier). 3S he is high tier not mid. He isn't TOP tier but he is considered just outside of top tier. Him and Urien.
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  • FrostyAUFrostyAU Lynx in your sinks Joined: Posts: 8,537
    Eternal wrote: »
    FrostyAU wrote: »
    dayvon_p wrote: »
    Akuma by design, will always be a contender in sf games.

    He's only mid tier in SFxT and SFIII.

    SFxT he is mid tier but that is mostly because other characters above him are so good (and he is actually shifting upward as you've seen. So he may be higher than straight mid tier). 3S he is high tier not mid. He isn't TOP tier but he is considered just outside of top tier. Him and Urien.

    I actually think he's really good in SFxT, he has a really good throw game. That's a discussion for the SFxT thread though.

    I agree with the general point that Akuma will never be bad because he has so many tools. Look at Seth, lowest life in the game and people still think he's ridiculous. Giving a character lower life just because they've got everything isn't a great way of balancing.
    2 Kings 2:24
  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Eternal wrote: »
    While I dunno about Akuma still being "the best" in the update you can't deny that there has never been a Street Fighter style game where he wasn't mid tier at the very worst. CvS, Alpha, ST, 3S, SF4, SFxT all of them have Akuma at mid tier at the very worst. Now he doesn't DOMINATE by any means but it's generally a safe bet that he'll be good in any game he is in, though the level of 'good' can vary from game to game.

    Isn't this true of all 3 shotos? The shoto design prevents them from sucking in an SF game because they will be decent at everything. They generally aren't given a glaring weakness.

    Being good in every SF is not unique to Akuma, it's a shoto trait.

    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2013
    Eternal wrote: »
    While I dunno about Akuma still being "the best" in the update you can't deny that there has never been a Street Fighter style game where he wasn't mid tier at the very worst. CvS, Alpha, ST, 3S, SF4, SFxT all of them have Akuma at mid tier at the very worst. Now he doesn't DOMINATE by any means but it's generally a safe bet that he'll be good in any game he is in, though the level of 'good' can vary from game to game.

    Isn't this true of all 3 shotos? The shoto design prevents them from sucking in an SF game because they will be decent at everything. They generally aren't given a glaring weakness.

    Being good in every SF is not unique to Akuma, it's a shoto trait.

    Not really. Alpha 3 Ken is considered C+ tier and is considered slightly below mid tier in ST and HDR.

    If it was truely a shoto trait I don't think there'd be any argument about Oni / Evil Ryu being mid tier yet until recently everyone just accepted them as bottom tier and most still think Oni is bottom tier and evil ryu is maybe mid.

    It def helps however, Ryu and Ken aren't nearly as consistently strong as Akuma who has only not been upper tier in CvS2 and SFxT otherwise he has always been either top tier or just outside of top tier. Being a shoto isn't a free 'mid tier' card but their design is well rounded for sure.
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    edited June 2013
    Eternal wrote: »
    Not really. Alpha 3 Ken is considered C+ tier and is considered slightly below mid tier in ST and HDR.

    Original Ken is considered high tier in ST. I assume in games where multiple version exist we take the version that rates highest as the definitive version for that game.

    As far as A3, there will be games where one of the shotos isn't good. Just look at CVS2 and SFxT for Akuma.
    If it was truely a shoto trait I don't think there'd be any argument about Oni / Evil Ryu

    Which is why I mentioned "3 shotos" as I was referencing the original 3 designs. We could lump Dan in there as well, but that wasn't my point.
    It def helps however, Ryu and Ken aren't nearly as consistently strong as Akuma who has only not been upper tier in CvS2 and SFxT otherwise he has always been either top tier or just outside of top tier.

    Is this even accurate? Are there even more instances of Akuma being higher tier more consistently that Ryu and Ken?

    ST - Akuma was tops but because he was intended to be broken.
    A1 - Ken was tops, Akuma and Ryu were good.
    A2 - Ryu and Ken were better.
    A3 - Ryu and Akuma were very good, Ken not so much.
    CVS2 -Ken was better than Ryu and Akuma, but all were good.
    3s - Ken was better than Akuma, Akuma was better than Ryu, Ryu was good.
    SF4 series - Akuma is better than both, but all are good.
    SFxT - Ryu and Ken are better, jury is still out on how good Akuma is.

    Shotos are good due to their design and which shoto is the strongest in a particular game isn't consistent. Being good consistently is not an Akuma trait, it's a shoto trait. (original shotos)

    In fact Ken may have been better more often than either Ryu and Akuma.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • superlollosuperlollo S Tier Joined: Posts: 2,967
    I'm gonna love this, please continue guys!
    Things that should be patched:
    - People that constantly complain that there should be a patch.

    by. J.Scogz
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2013
    Yes it is accurate


    Current ST charts: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/179249/super-turbo-ranking-chart-2013
    Ken is ranked well below mid tier for both Japan and USA. Japan puts him lower than Cammy or Fei.
    A1 difficult to find tier lists for this but the one on SRK wiki is: Top Tier: Guy, Akuma, Charlie, Ken Middle Tier: Everyone else
    A2 yes Ryu and Ken were better.
    A3 V-Akuma is considered S tier along with A, V Dhalsim and V Sodom. Ryu is B tier. Ken is C+ Big difference.
    CvS2 by far Akuma's worst appearance at B tier.
    3S Ken is better than Akuma but Akuma is considered well above mid tier but def not equal to Ken who is the best shoto.
    SF4 Akuma has been #1 shoto in every version while Ken was bordering on low tier in Super but was still mid tier. (at least according to japanese tier lists.)
    SFxT Vanilla - Ryu/Ken were better and Akuma was around mid tier
    SFxT 2013 - Generally agreed that Akuma is the best shoto and his tier placement is currently higher than Ryu/Ken and rising higher as he is explored more. People are just too used to the vortex monster he is in SF4 and not concentrating on his other strengths.

    Ken has varied a TON Ryu has varied a bit less. Akuma has varied the least and is only has 2 appearances where he isn't high tier.


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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 3,272
    Vulpes wrote: »

    Hmm. Genkibot also won OzHadou earlier this year (pretty exciting tourney).



  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    edited June 2013
    Eternal wrote: »
    Yes it is accurate


    Current ST charts: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/179249/super-turbo-ranking-chart-2013
    Ken is ranked well below mid tier for both Japan and USA. Japan puts him lower than Cammy or Fei.

    ....?

    What?

    I said "Original Ken is considered high tier in ST" and then you show me a tier list where Original Ken is listed as high tier.......?

    http://www.strevival.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/str_ranking_chart_2013_usa.png
    A1 difficult to find tier lists for this but the one on SRK wiki is: Top Tier: Guy, Akuma, Charlie, Ken Middle Tier: Everyone else

    It's wrong. Guy (grounded redizzies) and Ken (rolltrap) where the best characters in that game. Mike Watson had a tier list in the Alpha 1 thread a few years back. Akuma and Ryu were both good though.
    A3 V-Akuma is considered S tier along with A, V Dhalsim and V Sodom. Ryu is B tier. Ken is C+ Big difference.

    Big difference what? Akuma was top tier, Ryu was high and Ken sucked.
    3S Ken is better than Akuma but Akuma is considered well above mid tier but def not equal to Ken who is the best shoto.

    Nobody said he was mid tier, just that Ken was better.
    SFxT 2013 - Generally agreed that Akuma is the best shoto and his tier placement is currently higher than Ryu/Ken and rising higher as he is explored more. People are just too used to the vortex monster he is in SF4 and not concentrating on his other strengths.

    Jury is still out on SFXT 2013 shotos tiers placement. No definitive tier list on where there place is out there nor is there much agreement.
    Ken has varied a TON Ryu has varied a bit less. Akuma has varied the least and is only has 2 appearances where he isn't high tier.

    Akuma is not high tier in CVS2, SFXT and Alpha 2. If anything the least variation goes to Ryu who has remained a solid level mid/high tier character throughout while Akuma and Ken have taken turns at being a top tier in different games.

    Akuma - Top tier/high tier in a few games, never been crap.
    Ryu - High tier/mid tier virtually everytime, never been crap.
    Ken - Top tier/High tier in a few games, mediocre a couple of times.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    Ryu/Ken were the worst in World Warrior tho.

    Akuma>Ryu>Ken in SF3.
    Akuma>Ryu>Ken in 2i

    for completions sake i guess.
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Ryu/Ken were the worst in World Warrior tho.

    Akuma>Ryu>Ken in SF3.
    Akuma>Ryu>Ken in 2i

    for completions sake i guess.

    There is no Akuma in SF3. At all.

    WW isn't relevant because it didn't have Akuma.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

    "Well I guess the future is rape and no one can stop it."
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 3,272
    edited June 2013
    Veserius wrote: »
    I don't see how bison is top 10 when he has counterpick matchups and isn't particularly good against top tier while characters like Ken or Ibuki do better vs. top tier and aren't as easily counterpickable. I think the Aussie Bison players are just disproportionately strong.

    IMO

    Cammy
    Seth
    Akuma
    Adon
    Fei

    Viper
    Ibuki
    Ken
    Sakura

    Yun

    Honorable mention to Abel for being a mid/low tier murdering machine.


    I agree, Bison is not top tier in this version. No comeback factor, bad oki game, poor antiaris and bad damage output keeps him from top tier teritory. Also, Bison vs guile is one of the worst match ups in the entire game.

    Regarding the top tiers, mine is very similar to Veserius:

    Cammy
    Akuma
    Seth
    Fei
    Adon
    Viper
    Rufus
    Ibuki
    Sakura

    Maybe Makoto ? The order is not necesarry set in stone.
    Angry Abel wrote: »
    I've read some comments that the tier list shouldn't be updated as there's a new version coming out, but I think the opposite.

    After the 2013 version (or whatever it'll be called) comes out, people are going to use this list as a comparison.

    I appreciate it takes a lot of work (and kudos emanuelb), but I think it should be updated if possible.


    If people are not bored talking match ups, I'm ok with it.



  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    You casually ignored the Japan tier list for ST though which lists Ken as low. Big difference between S tier and B tier. Would you say that the gap between Chun and Ryu in 3S isn't noticeably large even if Ryu is competitive? Because that seems to be the idea you are presenting.

    Interestingly enough, looking up this stuff I've found several instances of statements that Ken may no longer be considered #3 in 3S. Momochi for instance doesn't believe he is. And while I dunno how much weight I'd put in this, Renic actually believes Akuma is better than Ken in 3S.

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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    edited June 2013
    Eternal wrote: »
    You casually ignored the Japan tier list for ST though which lists Ken as low.

    *facepalm*

    The Japanese tier list does not give a listing for Original Ken which would explain why I IGNORED IT.
    Big difference between S tier and B tier. Would you say that the gap between Chun and Ryu in 3S isn't noticeably large even if Ryu is competitive? Because that seems to be the idea you are presenting.

    I don't even know what you're talking about. The point is that the shoto archtype is good overall. So what if Akuma was S tier and Ryu was b tier, they were both good. The same tier difference existed in Ken and Ryu's favor in A2, but you don't see me harping on it.
    Interestingly enough, looking up this stuff I've found several instances of statements that Ken may no longer be considered #3 in 3S. Momochi for instance doesn't believe he is. And while I dunno how much weight I'd put in this, Renic actually believes Akuma is better than Ken in 3S.

    There were arguments that Mak and Duds surpassed Ken years ago. Even so Ken is generally believed to be the best shoto.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

    "Well I guess the future is rape and no one can stop it."
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2013
    Y'know what? I'm sorry. I realize my mistake now. I should never mention Muhamm... Akuma by name ever as it is blasphemy to utter his name.

    I shall refrain from ever mentioning your diety as everything I say about him is slander. I apologize.

    Also it's amazing that you can forget something 2 posts later
    Eternal wrote: »
    Yes it is accurate

    A3 V-Akuma is considered S tier along with A, V Dhalsim and V Sodom. Ryu is B tier. Ken is C+ Big difference.

    Big difference what? Akuma was top tier, Ryu was high and Ken sucked.
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Eternal wrote: »
    Y'know what? I'm sorry. I realize my mistake now. I should never mention Muhamm... Akuma by name ever as it is blasphemy to utter his name.

    I shall refrain from ever mentioning your diety as everything I say about him is slander. I apologize.

    It has nothing to do with Akuma (or any character) and has to do with you having no understanding of the subject matter. I mean do you even understand the difference between Original Ken and Ken in Super Turbo?
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

    "Well I guess the future is rape and no one can stop it."
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,498
    @Eternal you kind of fucked up, the jp list doesn't have o characters, which if you notice have SIGNIFICANTLY different numbers than their n counterparts on the US chart.

    I mean look at o.sagat rank on the us tier list compared to n.sagat ranks on the jp tier list.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2013
    Veserius wrote: »
    @Eternal you kind of fucked up, the jp list doesn't have o characters, which if you notice have SIGNIFICANTLY different numbers than their n counterparts on the US chart.

    I mean look at o.sagat rank on the us tier list compared to n.sagat ranks on the jp tier list.

    That doesn't invalidate the A3, or 3S or every other thing that Shin*****204 likes to just try and wipe away because it doesn't fit into his reality of ***** being this mid - upper mid tier character that has never been good but Shin makes work despite that.

    Also if you look at that very tier list that seems to to be the issue. O Ken is actually pretty far down there. He isn't TERRIBLE but he is still mid tier at best and N. Ken is below that. Ken is 9th out of 19characters. Though to be fair, the gap between him and the next lowest is pretty significant.
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  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    I don't even think he fucked up

    ShinAkuma said: "Shotos are always good due to their tools. No way for a Shoto to be bad".
    Then Eternal brings up N.Ken, who IS a shoto, and ShinAkuma goes "Well, if the same sprite exists twice in the game, we obviously take the stronger version"
    That doesn't make sense? If Shotos are good by default due to their tools, both O. and N.Ken should be good.

    P.S. Sakura is a shoto too and was low tier in SSF4 :~
    P.P.S. This discussion is dumb and useless
    Why.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Just drop the whole damn thing. The discussion is going nowhere fast and nothing I say will convince Shin and frankly it doesn't matter who is right because none of it really has to do with AE2012
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  • FrostyAUFrostyAU Lynx in your sinks Joined: Posts: 8,537
    edited June 2013
    ST hijacked the AE tier thread somehow lol.

    The point that more tools = less issues is a sound one though. More tools = less likely to have bad match ups. Characters with polarizing toolsets like Zangief can have extremely favourable match ups, but also end up landing up with a lot of quite bad match ups that more rounded characters don't struggle with.

    A consensus I was trying to achieve earlier was that while characters are weaker, no one is gimped to the point they're quite literally useless. So instead of just dismissing any character that isn't top tier, pay attention to what lower tiers do well, because it might turn out one of them has an oddly favourable match up against a top tier.
    Vulpes wrote: »


    There is no need to put major in quotations. Genki won OHN2012 with Juri. There are players there as good as the top players in the U.S. Last year Shangtsung was 17th at Evo and HumanBomb came 5th, both trained in Australia. The American and Japanese scenes aren't the only ones capable of breeding top players, even though you rarely hear of talent from outside of your own shore unless they come over and beat you.



    2 Kings 2:24
  • FrostyAUFrostyAU Lynx in your sinks Joined: Posts: 8,537
    edited June 2013
    double
    2 Kings 2:24
  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Eternal wrote: »
    That doesn't invalidate the A3, or 3S or every other thing that Shin*****204 likes to just try and wipe away because it doesn't fit into his reality of ***** being this mid - upper mid tier character that has never been good but Shin makes work despite that.

    I'm pretty sure you never have a clue what you're talking about.

    The shoto archtype causes them to be good characters, which is supported by the tiers. Very seldom is a shoto trash, meaning it isn't just an "Akuma" trait, it's a shoto one. I'm sorry that you can't read tier lists correctly or understand matchup numbers, but that isn't my problem.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

    "Well I guess the future is rape and no one can stop it."
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