Most technical character? (POLL)

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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So you're saying CViper has 1f links she needs to learn in order to get damage?
    No, and Ibuki doesn't *need* 1f links to get damage. She thrives off knockdowns.
    Great way to avoid explaining anything.
    Like I said, these same arguments can be for just about every character. It's going to be a pointless back-and-forth discussion, like this one.
    Having a PPP button is standard on almost every stick, and even if you factor in button rewiring, the fact is that feints are not a 1f timing like loops are.
    I don't want to go further into this part because it's clearly very silly (once you start talking about modding sticks and using macros then there's no point in talking about execution). Let me just say that there are several characters who rely on unplinkable 1f links for BnBs. I don't see many of them popping up in this thread, and Ibuki's Tsumuji loop is not a BnB.
    The fact that Ibuki has more than a handful different antiairs and you actually have to think about the situation, makes it harder to antiair, no?
    The more effective options you have, the harder it is to AA? You do realize how stupid this sounds, right? That's like saying it's harder to play footsies with Rose than with Viper because Rose has more options at more ranges.
    Explain please.
    5f crouch tech - she gets frame trapped easily
    Low practical abare potential (not including stuff like wakeup ultras...) - she doesn't get jab confirms in to knockdown or big damage
    7f reversal, easily safe-jumped without a setup (fun fact, she can't even backdash out of some setups because she gets hit during the recovery)
    Deceptively wide hurtbox that allows for unblockables and ambiguous x-ups
    No close AA except close st.mk (7f) and pre-emptive jumping attacks
    Worst focus attack in the game
    EX Seismo's invincibility runs out before the active frames
    HP TK goes over some lows
    Easily meatied by some chars eg. Ryu's close st.HK beats all her options (including focus backdash) except ultra and blocking

    When you factor in all these things then it's easy to see why it's harder to defend with Viper than many other characters. People often say she's got a good wakeup, but that's because she got options to avoid certain setups (and that if she guesses right with EX Seismo, she gets U1). But these options aren't necessarily easy to perform (eg. delayed auto-correct HP TK feints) , and even once she's defended correctly, more often than not she still has to contend with potential frame traps. It's a no-brainer.

    Quote wars are boring. I think Gen and Viper are the two most technical characters in the game. You think it's Gen and Ibuki. You have your reasons and I have mine.
  • DrGulagDrGulag Joined: Posts: 199
    Picking up Ibuki is definitely easier than Viper, the vortex is rather easy to perform and her combos are not difficult at all. Ibuki does have some tight links for high level play but so does most of the cast.

    With Viper you are going to spend a lot of time losing most of your games, that's just the way it is. (losing to newbies you would be able to beat convincingly with almost any other character). t's been four years and people still drop stuff (HP.TK raw feints etc), because with Viper you need to constantly psych out your opponent by pressing buttons in quick succession even if there's distance between the players.

    Gen, Viper >>>>>>>>> rest.

    ps. I'm probably going to get some negative feedback from this post but I also think there's way too much room for auto-piloting with Ibuki. The vortex = necrosis of the cerebral neurons. Target combo into another knockdown and it's mostly safe. Needed to get that off my chest.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With Viper you are going to spend a lot of time losing most of your games
    Uryo said when he started playing Viper his win rate was 20% after 500 matches (3m29s):
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭
    I'm sorry man, but you are dismissing highly complex characters such as Hakan for instance. Nobody can tell me that there is an abyss of execution between Viper and Hakan. This is a character that is so complex his potential is still beginning to be unearthed 4 years after the game came out. Gen is extraordinarily complex (which is why watching Xian play is always mind blowing to me) but look at what Infiltration does with Hakan. That is not human.
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  • TheMeth90TheMeth90 Slowly learning Elena on 3S... Joined: Posts: 1,145
    Even if he's easy to begin with, Blanka is a very technical character to play seriously at a better than average level i think. Not much about the execution, though U1's links are not easy for most people and stand lp xx hp elec struggle a lot too. The hard part about him is having a great spacing, and knowing your footsies and how to use that, it doesn't look like this for a lot of people but it's amazingly deep and complex actually.
  • DrGulagDrGulag Joined: Posts: 199
    Uryo said when he started playing Viper his win rate was 20% after 500 matches (3m29s):

    I bet a lot of people can relate to that experience, I remember reading the Viper forums back in the day and the frustration was something else heh.
    I'm sorry man, but you are dismissing highly complex characters such as Hakan for instance..... but look at what Infiltration does with Hakan. That is not human.

    I don't know how hard Hakan is to use but Infiltration made a lot of good reads and likes to exploit those wakeup fuzzy frames (or whatever you call it). It's hard to adjust, because I would also be scared of pressing buttons during wakeup when playing against him lol.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭
    Hakan has an unorthodox grappling game, needs to be oiled up, has his FA shenanigans, weak AA game.... there's so much to keep in mind when playing him... it's a mess
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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    look at what Infiltration does with Hakan. That is not human.
    Well it clearly is human, and in his own words he can get away with certain things because people don't know the matchup.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭
    Don't you find it interesting that it takes the single best SSF4 player in the world to use this character to its full potential? Who else pulls this off? And who else uses a bottom 4 character on high level play like he does?

    You don't see people picking Dan, Dudley or Claw because "people don't know the matchup"..... and you don't see other using a low tier character in such a dominant fashion either.

    There's simply no arguing that Hakan is one of the hardest characters in the game when it comes to effectively applying his (significant) potential.
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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't you find it interesting that it takes the single best SSF4 player in the world to use this character to its full potential?
    Well, firstly I'm not convinced that even Infilitration is using Hakan to use his full potential. Secondly, how many significant matches has he even brought out Hakan? Once to counter RiceEata's Blanka, once to grab a cheeky win from Hugo101's Yun, and several times against Champ's sim. It's not unnatural for people to counter-pick in this game, and TBH while I thought it was cool to see Hakan winning at a tourney, I wasn't uber-impressed by what I saw for the most part. I saw characters getting dominated because of a bad matchup. I saw people losing to mixups they've never seen before. Not much else, but maybe I don't know what to look for. Which brings me to my next point...

    Thirdly, I'm not saying that Hakan isn't a technical character, but your arguments would be more convincing if you could give a few examples of what makes him technical.

    TBH, I think matches like these are more entertaining than watching Hakan raping Sim:
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭
    I said it:

    1, 2 and 3. The oil requirement

    4. Unconventional grabs

    5. Unconventional focus attack shenanigans

    6. Unconventional normals

    On that matter El Fuert is also a technical character imo.

    When I say technical I mean: in order to be played to his full potential, requires perfect execution of multiple mechanics and not just a few.

    Ryu is simple. Playing Ryu effectively is simple. Akuma is a bit harder. Gen is ridiculous. So are: Makoto, Viper and Hakan.
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  • Axl_m4sterAxl_m4ster This is how I look like, don't make fun Joined: Posts: 2,423
    when you have chubby fingers....does it make every character in the roster a techincal character?
    just askin.
    LOGIC AND REASON ARE OVERRATED VIRTUES.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭
    I have the hands of a pianist, it's my girlfriend, a devout Claw player ( 3000 fights and counting, not 10 with another char) who has the chubbyfingerz. I have since switched to another PSN account with a more fitting name.
    PSN: SaikyoForever

    Test yourself against Saikyo!

  • K1MOCH1K1MOCH1 Joined: Posts: 165

    being chubby didnt stop anyone from doing anything
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭
    He does have some technical combos, but they really aren't needed. The technical aspect of Akuma went out the window with his Vanilla nerfs.

    What did Akuma have in vanilla that made him more technical ?
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  • DrGulagDrGulag Joined: Posts: 199
    What did Akuma have in vanilla that made him more technical ?

    Maybe he's talking about the st.hk loop against certain characters or something? That's the only execution based thing missing from his game today ...that I can think of right now.
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,462 mod
    What did Akuma have in vanilla that made him more technical ?
    Maybe he's talking about the st.hk loop against certain characters or something? That's the only execution based thing missing from his game today ...that I can think of right now.

    Actually there were many other combos which his nerfs either removed or made obsolete.

    Everyone knows the HK loop, but not many people know the same nerf to HK took away his 1 frame FADC combos. c.MK > Fireball > s.HK used to be a legit viable combo, but required you to hit a one frame link out of FADC followed by another 1-2 frame link depending on spacing.

    In addition the changes to the damage on some of his moves took away other combos because it became much more damaging and meter efficient to just EX.SRK or HP > FADC > HP in your combos. About the only high damage link from Vanilla that is still good is the c.MP > s.HP. Even some of the simplier combos like ending in LP.SRK > FADC > HP Shaku became insignificant due to the damage nerf on the Shaku.

    Akuma's combos these days are pretty cut and dry. The only 1 frame link I often have to hit is c.MP > c.MK, but a lot of times I counter hit in those situations which makes the link dirt simple.

    Also another combo that was actually fairly good was the 2 Bar combo into Ultra back when the Ultra did 600 damage. c.MK > Fireball > Lvl 2 Focus > U1 actually could be worth the meter, but since U1 no longer does 600 the damage reduction kills that and it is basically a swag combo now.
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭
    so what should be done in order for Akuma to have these combos back ? (without increasing the dmg for Ultra/moves) or buffing the HK would be a really bad idea ? :D . I played very little in vanilla son i'm not familiar at all with Akuma, why was he nerfed, etc.
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  • metallicabandmetallicaband DP & A TELEPORT ?!! Joined: Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭✭
    so what should be done in order for Akuma to have these combos back ? (without increasing the dmg for Ultra/moves) or buffing the HK would be a really bad idea ? :D . I played very little in vanilla son i'm not familiar at all with Akuma, why was he nerfed, etc.
    It's very simple, Capcom should have decreased the frame advantage of far jab from +7 to +6 and left far roundhouse as a 7 frame normal instead of making it an 8 frame normal, that would have removed the roundhouse loop but kept the combo possibilities.

    As for why Vanilla Akuma was nerfed, I think it would be enough to say that even vanilla AE Yun doesn't compare to that beast lol, demon flip throw OS SRK was lulz, let alone the insane stun output he had.

    A lot of people keep talking about how Akuma wasn't nerfed much during the course of the game, but in reality he's barely a shadow of his former broken vanilla SF4 self (damage and stun got a huge nerf, air fireball, teleport recovery, DF options, far roundhouse..etc all got nerfed).
    "Blanka is scrub." - Tokido
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,462 mod
    so what should be done in order for Akuma to have these combos back ? (without increasing the dmg for Ultra/moves) or buffing the HK would be a really bad idea ? :D . I played very little in vanilla son i'm not familiar at all with Akuma, why was he nerfed, etc.

    To be honest I agreed with most of the vanilla nerfs. Some of the crap he had was stupid good and most players hadn't seen how retarded it could be.

    The only combo I would want back is the srk shaku combos because those were my first FADC combos I learned.

    At any rate I think most of the changes to get back his old combos aren't going to happen. Especially in this "nerf akuma" environment.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • Bornholm23Bornholm23 Joined: Posts: 16
    Wonder why nobody have mentioned E.honda? I mean, his piano combos are sick and quite hard to do. Just a Thought I had
  • DirtySumoDirtySumo Joined: Posts: 16
    most technical = turtle charachters with good normals
    so guile and Rog in my view
    turtling to the top
  • QLJ86QLJ86 Joined: Posts: 32
    lol at people listing GOUKEN.   Ive been playing him since vanilla  and he does not belong anywhere on the list.   Hes easy to play and thats what I like about him.  The thing about gouken is that his character design  kinda fails.    Hes hard to WIN with because of his flaws  and only that lol.     I would not recommend gouken to beginners though lol.    To play gouken you need above average defense skills   and zoning and spacing skills  and even then thats only going to get you so far.     His defense is ass, kongo is a BAD move, his only viable reversal is ex tastu and that wiffs on crouchers,  no 2 hit projectile, no combo's from light attacks.     Hes fun to play and thats why I play him but  I really need to pick someone else up lol.        Sorry I know im late and this topic is over but I had to get that off my chest.      
  • sorrowsticksorrowstick Joined: Posts: 253
    technical character??? cody....check out his juggling capabilities....!
    he's my 2nd main after T Hawk. but why cody hasn't listed on the poll?
    trollfighting, guessing game, random mash & taunting are legit...offline or online.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭✭
    Ooh. The new forums have a trolling flag. So good.
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  • N0_d3N1ALN0_d3N1AL GT: sinadoom Joined: Posts: 115
  • sorrowsticksorrowstick Joined: Posts: 253
    Komatik said:
    Ooh. The new forums have a trolling flag. So good.


    right ... the flags are more-or-less meant for prejudism. its fine by me if people found that "cody is a technical character" statement is a troll. yup...i heard someone says cody is troll due to his high meaty damage but, hey....can't we just live with it?

    but its kinda dissappointing when people instantly put trollflag whenever my user account pop-up... :(

    trollfighting, guessing game, random mash & taunting are legit...offline or online.
  • protoman385protoman385 Joined: Posts: 172
    I think the fact that you only see bad Elf players online is a good counter argument for the hate here. (He is difficult to pick up, and a lot of players prefer consistency when they invest that much time.) 

    All characters at upper level play have very technical limitations, frame perfect setups are not simple things to learn...
    Blanka at high level play requires 1 frame links. Sak does too, but no one is mentioning her. 

    I think players need to BE more technical, instead of looking at characters as an excuse.
  • Ryuken9Ryuken9 Joined: Posts: 504
    Komatik said:
    Ooh. The new forums have a trolling flag. So good.


    right ... the flags are more-or-less meant for prejudism. its fine by me if people found that "cody is a technical character" statement is a troll. yup...i heard someone says cody is troll due to his high meaty damage but, hey....can't we just live with it?

    but its kinda dissappointing when people instantly put trollflag whenever my user account pop-up... :(

    If you play Cody like Momochi he's a very technical character without a doubt, but I all I see from Codys is basic shit.
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  • sorrowsticksorrowstick Joined: Posts: 253
    edited February 2013

    Ryuken9 said:
    If you play Cody like Momochi he's a very technical character without a doubt, but I all I see from Codys is basic shit.

    define "basic shit? is it one of these? 1. (hold.Lp),Neutr-J.Hp --> cl.Mp --> cr.Hp --> ZonkLp = 473pts? 2. overhead hook mixup with d.Hk or d.Mk? 3. sudden ex.Ruffies? or sudden wake up bad dust? 4. poke cr.Lk --> run --> reapproach dash forward--> (above mixup) or footsies (cr.Lp,cr.Lp,cr.Mp --> zonkHp or C.Uppe.Hp) 5. the worst for others (the best mine): from the blockstring (1) above --> frametrap to dread dust u2.
    Post edited by sorrowstick on
    trollfighting, guessing game, random mash & taunting are legit...offline or online.
  • play24play24 Joined: Posts: 1
    Gen for sure.
    But people seem to over exaggerate how technical he is.
  • AOS-AOS- C Joined: Posts: 3,206 ✭✭✭✭
    Viper is up there. Gen is too, but I'm seeing more Gens so he may not be as technical as he was once seen. Abel is another one, Ibuki is too with stuff like tsumuji loops I believe.


    Gouken is definitely NOT technical. Sakura isn't all that technical either. There's character specific setups to know, but lots of characters have to deal with that too.
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  • REALVINNYBLESSREALVINNYBLESS Joined: Posts: 89
    I thought more people would say Evil Ryu
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