Wake up game - offence & defence

ErawanErawan The tiger who swapped his stripes for spotsJoined: Posts: 186
Ok, I asked half of this question in a character specific forum, but I wanted to ask you guys too. So basically, I wanted to know if I've covered all the options for applying wake-up pressure and defending against it. I'm hoping it will give me a firm grasp of why some characters have a great wake-up game (Bison) versus those who have a crap one (Cody).

With reference to that last point I made, I think Cody's options are lacking because he has: a slow back dash; his fastest special is 7 frames (not great) and it requires one bar of EX; every other special move is just too damn slow.

As for Bison... well looking at the frame data, his moves are slow too but... I'm guessing invincibility and maybe being airborne from the first frame go some way to offsetting that?

Offence:

1) Try to set up an ambiguous cross-up - I'm not doing it very well as more often than not, the opponent blocks the correct way. How are you supposed to do it again? I thought it was a small step back and maybe throw in a st.LP to distract/throw them off.

2) Bait out a reversal with a FA or safe jump

3) Do a meaty attack - can't say I've seen many/any meaties in matches to be honest, are they a bit too tricky/risky to do? Or maybe I'm just blind and don't know what I'm looking for.

4) Neutral jump HK/attack to bait the throw tech

Defence:

1. Block

2. (Focus) Backdash (or even forward)

3. Tech throw/throw

4. Reversal special move (the less start-up frames, the better)

5. Ultra (lol)

So, is there anything I've missed?
(Talking about Daigo) "i dont see how someone who is good at SF gets to be a celebrity because i bet theres plenty of people that would beat him that dont go to tournaments, and is he good at the megadrive version or the newer releases for ps3 and 360" - Comment by SpoilerAlert, Kotaku
23 Aug 2011 3:32 AM

Comments

  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,254 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1) Try to set up an ambiguous cross-up - I'm not doing it very well as more often than not, the opponent blocks the correct way. How are you supposed to do it again? I thought it was a small step back and maybe throw in a st.LP to distract/throw them off.
    Ambiguous x-ups are character specific, and the whiffed move is usually to setup the timing for the jump. It would be helpful if you posted which characters you are using for this situation that you are trying to setup.

    I suppose you can argue that there are 3 types of ambiguous x-ups: those that are really hard to tell which way to block (eg. Ryu j.mk/lk after an f.throw), those that look like they hit in front/back but actually hit on the other side (Chun's Flip Kick in certain situations), and those where the player can choose which side he wants to hit by changing the timing of the button press, or jumping attack that they are using (eg. Ryu f.throw, st.hk, j.mk/lk in the corner). Depending on which setup you are using, the opponent might be blocking correctly just out of familiarity. However, it's more likely that your setup is not producing an ambiguous x-up at all.
    2) Bait out a reversal with a FA or safe jump
    Keep in mind what options the opponent has. Sometimes they can beat your FA backdash with moves that have good range and startup. eg. It's not wise to try to bait out a reversal with an FA against Ryu/Chun when they have super. Safe jumps aren't really meant for baiting reversals. They're there for applying safe pressure. Usually it's more effective to try to bait a reversal by acting aggressively on their wakeup (dancing around their personal space, using fake meaty attacks etc).
    3) Do a meaty attack - can't say I've seen many/any meaties in matches to be honest, are they a bit too tricky/risky to do? Or maybe I'm just blind and don't know what I'm looking for.
    Meaties are very good against characters that don't have effective reversal options to beat them. Sometimes they need EX Meter in order to beat meaties, sometimes they can't do anything all besides block/backdash.
    4) Neutral jump HK/attack to bait the throw tech
    Not such a great idea as some chars can AA before you land. It obviously also depends on the characters involved though.

    Lists like these aren't really that useful when it comes to individual characters. The key to good okizeme is to try to get the opponent in a situation where they have very little time to decide the best defensive option against a range of offensive options. A simple example is Ryu's sweep. After this, he gets (vs most chars):
    a) Safe-jump
    b) x-up tatsu (even ground tatsu, depending on the situation)
    c) empty jump into low/throw/DP FADC
    d) dash into meaty/fake meaty

    These are 4 oki options, but it's even trickier than this. a) and b) together already form a 50/50 mixup, and in some cases both are safe options. c) Can be hard to see because it's has the same timing for a safe jump so it essentially hits 1f later. If the opponent techs wrong, they risk eating DP FADC. If they don't tech, they risk getting thrown. d) is a weaker option, but it's good vs opponents who don't reversals that can beat meaties, especially in the corner where you don't wanna risk a x-up that will get you cornered if they defend correctly.

    So with your character, try to find the option that gives your character the most safe options vs the opponent, whilst also giving them the least time to decide the best response.
    Defence:

    1. Block

    2. (Focus) Backdash (or even forward)

    3. Tech throw/throw

    4. Reversal special move (the less start-up frames, the better)
    Scratch off number 5 completely. It's the same as doing a reversal special attack, but in many cases there is significantly more risk attached.

    There are differences between backdashing and Focus Backdashing. Backdashing can evade meaties cancelled into specials, but Focus Attacks usually get hit. Focus Attacks avoid anti-backdash OS, while backdashing gets hit. Focus Backdash and normal backdash usually have different ranges. And I'm not 100% sure, but I believe you can get thrown out of a Focus Backdash as the first 4f are not dash-cancellable.

    You can also add delayed wake up special (usually in auto-correct situations), or to beat specific setups where a reversal will get beaten. Negative-edge reversals are a subset of these. You can use them to beat some ambiguous x-up options if you have an appropriate reversal. Basically press the button, input the auto-correct motion for the special attack you want, end on the direction that will block the jumping attack that will hit earliest, and release the button afterwards. If the attack hits early on the one side, you'll block it. If it hits slightly later on the other side, your special attack will come out. This is situation-specific.
    There's also the focus + tech throw backdash (press focus + tech together and backdash). This avoids certain 50/50 situations. Armour cancelling is a special case that you can probably overlook for now.

    Finally, there are also other options like jumping, using a low-profile move to avoid certain jump-ins, walking forward/backward, performing a just-frame wake-up move to avoid meaty grabs/fuzzies, or just waking up in neutral position (Gen-specific).

    For good defense you need to know the opponent's options and habits, your own counters, and not be predictable.
  • ErawanErawan The tiger who swapped his stripes for spots Joined: Posts: 186
    Wow, thank you very much for that very in-depth answer. I forgot to edit point 1 about the ambiguous cross-up, that was taken from my original post.

    I thought auto-correct moves meant you didn't have to auto-correct the input. I was lead to believe that you just had to input the move, then delay the button input until the opponent was basically on you and it would execute the move in the right direction.

    Could you elaborate on why you would just walk forward/backwards? I don't think I've ever seen this done in a match. Also on 'just-frame wake-up move' - how does that avoid meaty grabs? What is that by the way? A grab done early, but not early enough to whiff?

    Armour cancelling is something I'd like to learn about as I'm not 100% sure what it is. Moves that can absorb one hit, like a focus attack?
    (Talking about Daigo) "i dont see how someone who is good at SF gets to be a celebrity because i bet theres plenty of people that would beat him that dont go to tournaments, and is he good at the megadrive version or the newer releases for ps3 and 360" - Comment by SpoilerAlert, Kotaku
    23 Aug 2011 3:32 AM
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,254 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought auto-correct moves meant you didn't have to auto-correct the input. I was lead to believe that you just had to input the move, then delay the button input until the opponent was basically on you and it would execute the move in the right direction.
    you can do that but auto-correct inputs give you a better chance of having the move come out the correct way as the inputs cover both directions.
    Could you elaborate on why you would just walk forward/backwards? I don't think I've ever seen this done in a match
    after wake up? it happens all the time, you just don't notice it.

    it depends on the char you are facing and the opponent's habits. if they knock you down outside their max poke/sweep range and you have enough time to quick-rise before they can jump you can just hold back to walk backwards and whiff punish a misplaced poke, or anti-air a jump.

    walking/dashing forward is used when you're sure the opponent is trying to bait a reversal so you walk forward and do low poke/throw/overhead. watch daigo's matches. he often wakes up with walk forward cr.mk. obviously the other time you can walk forward is when the opponent knocks you down from a full screen away (eg. EX Tiger Shot)
    Also on 'just-frame wake-up move' - how does that avoid meaty grabs? What is that by the way? A grab done early, but not early enough to whiff?
    it applies to meaty grabs that can only grab standing/aerial opponents. like cammy's hooligan throw, hakan's oil dive etc. the last wakeup frame always end in a standing animation unless you cancel that frame by blocking or performing a move. since you can't block throws, you cannot duck under a meaty aerial command grab. however, you can still perform a move like crouch jab to cancel the standing frame and avoid the throw. this also applies to certain standing reel animations. if you're in standing hit-stun you recover standing unless you cancel it by blocking or doing a move.



    Notice that the dummy is set to crouch but still gets hit by the hooligan throw.
    Armour cancelling is something I'd like to learn about as I'm not 100% sure what it is. Moves that can absorb one hit, like a focus attack?
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