EVO Player's Choice - CONGRATS SSBM! (Mike Z's closing remarks on OP)

Krisp · February 5

Where can I find Sony allstars on this site? All I found was a dead thread about the beta. I'm willing to give it a chance although I felt the huge random stages and supers only killed any chance of it being competitive. I unno when I played it people just circle stalled and the movement was ass but if it had more traps it could be good. I unno, I'm just guessing you guys don't consider it a fighter either.

TBH where I live we use the party game jokes more than you "oh shit the party hat pikachu is coming out. Dem high level party game starts better roll a 10 dude" <actually said last tourney and everyone laughed. I don't give a shit what people want to call it, in fact I'm hoping FGC randoms enter melee at Evo and pay mango some money so be can stop bitching about bring too broke to travel to Europe. Pot monsters ftw?

Srsly though is psas not considered ass in a competitive setting? I know my local brawl to hosts it but I never went cause it left a bad first impression. Sad the devs got dumped, they could have made huge headway with a sequel.

bmckay · February 5

Cronopio, post: 7972849, member: 7031 wrote:

Belt scrollers have fighting and they aren't fighting games. STGs have shooting and they aren't FPSs. RTSs have strategy but the aren't TBSs. Sidescrollers have platforming and fighting but they are neither platformers nor fighters.

Smash has fighting, but it isn't a fighting game.

Well yes, but all of your examples are actually different genres with similarities between them. An FPS is an FPS because FPS stands for First-Person Shooter. If you're not in First-Person view, it's not an FPS, no matter how many guns you shoot at N badguys. Turned-Based Strategy is mutually exclusive to Real-Time Strategy. It's like saying Devil May Cry is a Third-Person Shooter because Dante has guns. No, it's an Action game. The genre is determined by the primary focus, systems in place, and/or means of conveyance.

Forza Motorsport/Gran Turismo are not Action games no matter how many times you've watched The Fast & The Furious.

*Edit: No, this does not make every game a Role-Playing Game.

PointBreak91 · February 5

Marvel-man Viscant hating on 3s in 2005, who knew? :rolleyes:

Anyhow, whatever, congrats to the Smash people with deep financial pockets. Just enjoy it while it lasts, as clearly from the rise and fall of past excellent games, no one stays at the top forever.

J.D · February 5

Talk Marvel with Viscant, that's the game where he can really give you advice.
Discussing 3s with Viscant is like talking 3s with James Chen...... they're both very knowledgeable and I respect them a lot, but they really lack 3s knowledge.

Anybody who still think Viscant's post about parry holds any validity at this point in time is simply not interested in knowing more about 3s.
There's a reason why absolutely everybody bodied Viscant when he played 3S:OE.
His views and vision about game are simply outdated.

JacopeX · February 5

>Quote one sentence from a post
>Reply to that and ignore everything else
>That sentence so happens to be probably the only thing you can even come up with anything to reply to.
>"HUR HUR I WIN WIT A COMEBACK"

Done with this thread. Forum monsters are such wasted effort trying to share opinions with or help comprehend anything.

JohnGrimm · February 5

Krisp, post: 7973038, member: 83304 wrote:

Where can I find Sony allstars on this site?

PASBR is in the strategy zone subforum, not fighting game discussion.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?forums/playstation-all-stars.501/

As far as PASBR competitively, I prefer supers to kill than Smash's ringouts for the matter of consistency. They seem bad until you learn how to combo into them for your character, then when someone has meter things get scary. The movement is very underrated in PASBR because they intend for you to move around with your attacks instead of just your running, and not many people figure that out. Heihachi is slow as shit until you start incorporating wavedashing into moving around, and when you do he can chase down just about anyone. Also, I've heard plenty of Smash people complain about the lack of DI like it's a problem. Here's the deal with no DI, combos are how you build meter. Meter is how you kill people. Without combos the game would be super slow and pretty boring. The combos are what keep the game fast and let people get kills more often. On top of that, you know how in Smash DI is basically tech chases where you have to guess how people are going to DI, and that's where the "combo" mindgames come in? In PASBR, that is replaced basically 1 to 1 with knockdowns. You combo into a knockdown and your opponent has 3 options, roll left, roll right, or stay on the ground by holding block (being on the ground keeps you invincible) similar to DI chases giving players the option to DI left or right.

Also, if you want to watch competitive PASBR, try watching the Level|Up archives. The current competitive standard is 2v2 no timer (because it isn't an option) first team to 5 kills. It's not stock, it's the team who collectively gets 5 kills first, so one guy can get 3 kills and his partner can get 2 and they win. Basically, it's certainly not Smash, you can't try to play it like Smash. I think a lot of people couldn't get into the game because they couldn't figure out how to not play it like Smash. If the game has any one major problem, it's that it's too complex for its own good and is very unforgiving to new players. It's really not easy to pick up and play your first time and enjoy it, but when you learn it the game is great.

Mr. X · February 5

Cronopio, post: 7972849, member: 7031 wrote:

Belt scrollers have fighting and they aren't fighting games. STGs have shooting and they aren't FPSs. RTSs have strategy but the aren't TBSs. Sidescrollers have platforming and fighting but they are neither platformers nor fighters.

Smash has fighting, but it isn't a fighting game.

The geniuses who made Shinobi and Ninja Gaiden decided to add platforming and action together and created an action platformer. It's not one or the other, it's both.

Beat em up is an action game defined by waves of mooks to beat down. If you add platforming, it doesn't stop being a beat 'em up, it is placed both genres.

Fighting game is a variation of beat em ups, instead of waves of mooks, you fight characters equal in ability. If you include platforming, just like the above, it is both now. Remember Fatal Fury where you sidestep into the background or foreground? Leftovers of a beat em up.

Smash is fighting game + platforming. It is not one or the other, it is not neither, it is both. Like Rush Hour is Action AND Comedy. Like Star Wars is Action, Sci Fi and Fanatasy. He took what makes fighting games a fighting game and took what made platformers a platformer and put them in one game.

inb4 the one drop rule applied to fighting games

Yeah, like there's sub-division of fighting games already between 2D and 3D and the various ways 2D fighters can be made and the various ways 3D fighters can be made.

Before someone drags out that versus mode tacked on in not fighting games, is Tekken a beat em up because it has Tekken Force? Is MGS2S a Skateboarding game because it has Snakeboarding? Is FF8/9 a card game because they include card games?

Party game genre are defined by their minigames. Sonic Shuffle,Crash Bash, Mario Party, Wario Ware are party games. Good thing SF2 is a fighting game otherwise those minigames/bonus rounds might confuse people into thinking it is a party game :confused:

Krisp · February 5

Inb4 break the targets. I heard one of the sf devs got confused by the name E Honda and put in a car as a character.

LivewireX · February 5

I'm just going to say that quasi "jump into the background/foreground" thing in Fatal Fury Special, and Triple Triad in FFVIII were both fucking awesome.

Korbidon · February 6

I came here to say FF8 Triple Triad was amazing.

Triple Triad was the only, and I mean THE ONLY, reason I kept playing FF8.

d3v · February 6

Shawn_P, post: 7972289, member: 55983 wrote:

Very interesting points about the arcade culture that is lacking in the Smash scene, I hadn't really considered that at all. That is very eye opening in a lot of ways.

I guess it's kinda spoiled kid syndrome: A lot of us don't know what it's like to not have the options to modify the game to how we want, so I can completely understand why that is off putting to the people who grew up optionless.

I don't think that devalues what competitive Smash is, but it certainly lends credence to the disliking of the rulesets so I can at least respect that opinion much more now.

It's more than just the lack of options. Arcade play encourages a certain kind of mentality on the players, one that's very cutthroat and at time unwelcoming. My absolute favorite line in UltraDavid's article is the one about arcade games being about "skill-based dickery." Everyone's trying their best to protect the $.25/¥100 that they put into the machine. Everyone's trying to be as unfair as possible to their opponent without actually cheating so any advantage given by the game's engine is accepted. This is why you rarely see bans in traditional FGs no matter how unbalanced/top heavy the game becomes.

Shawn_P · February 6

d3v, post: 7974472, member: 9887 wrote:

It's more than just the lack of options. Arcade play encourages a certain kind of mentality on the players, one that's very cutthroat and at time unwelcoming. My absolute favorite line in UltraDavid's article is the one about arcade games being about "skill-based dickery." Everyone's trying their best to protect the $.25/¥100 that they put into the machine. Everyone's trying to be as unfair as possible to their opponent without actually cheating so any advantage given by the game's engine is accepted. This is why you rarely see bans in traditional FGs no matter how unbalanced/top heavy the game becomes.

I get that, but really what is there to ban in traditional fighting games that warrant bans in comparison to what is banned in Smash? I just don't really see a parallel there. I understand why seeing it (turning off parts of the game) in Smash is off putting, but you just really can't compare what would warrant bans in Smash with what would warrant bans in TFGs (as far as I know).

CyclopsPawnch · February 6

Shawn_P, post: 7974820, member: 55983 wrote:

I get that, but really what is there to ban in traditional fighting games that warrant bans in comparison to what is banned in Smash? I just don't really see a parallel there. I understand why seeing it (turning off parts of the game) in Smash is off putting, but you just really can't compare what would warrant bans in Smash with what would warrant bans in TFGs (as far as I know).

Stop calling them bans, they're stock/item/timer/stage switches built into the option menu.

Unless you're talking about Brawl, but nobody cares about Brawl.

Shawn_P · February 6

Semantics. The bottom line is that we play with a modified ruleset because we believe it needs to be modified. I don't think that is necessarily negative. I also don't see "ban" as an inherently negative term nor do I think the distinction is necessary. They are what they are.

Cronopio · February 6

Mr. X, post: 7973938, member: 7367 wrote:

The geniuses who made Shinobi and Ninja Gaiden decided to add platforming and action together and created an action platformer. It's not one or the other, it's both.

They are sidescrollers.

Fighting game is a variation of beat em ups, instead of waves of mooks, you fight characters equal in ability. If you include platforming, just like the above, it is both now. Remember Fatal Fury where you sidestep into the background or foreground? Leftovers of a beat em up.

Plane shifting is an early attempt to add 3D movement. Not much in common with the genre altering effects of platforming.

Smash is fighting game + platforming. It is not one or the other, it is not neither, it is both. Like Rush Hour is Action AND Comedy. Like Star Wars is Action, Sci Fi and Fanatasy. He took what makes fighting games a fighting game and took what made platformers a platformer and put them in one game.

Smash is fighting + platforming + items. The latter two are so prominent that it can't be called a pure fighter anymore, it's another type of game. Just because competitive players remove parts from the default game to turn it into something closer to an actual fighter it doesn't mean it is one. See my previous SSFIV example before.

Before someone drags out that versus mode tacked on in not fighting games, is Tekken a beat em up because it has Tekken Force? Is MGS2S a Skateboarding game because it has Snakeboarding? Is FF8/9 a card game because they include card games?

Those extra modes are separated from the main game.

Party game genre are defined by their minigames. Sonic Shuffle,Crash Bash, Mario Party, Wario Ware are party games. Good thing SF2 is a fighting game otherwise those minigames/bonus rounds might confuse people into thinking it is a party game

Minigames in SF2 are separate from the fighting. Unlike platforming and items, which are an integral part of Smash.

d3v · February 6

Shawn_P, post: 7974820, member: 55983 wrote:

I get that, but really what is there to ban in traditional fighting games that warrant bans in comparison to what is banned in Smash? I just don't really see a parallel there. I understand why seeing it (turning off parts of the game) in Smash is off putting, but you just really can't compare what would warrant bans in Smash with what would warrant bans in TFGs (as far as I know).

Characters.

For example, you don't see Chun or Yun banned in 3S despite how much they dominate tournaments for that game. Same with MvC2 with how having someone from the top 4 in your team was almost a requirement.

Pertho · February 6

Its kinda sad that instead of appreciating all the different twist that Smash bring as far as 2D movement, most niggas would rather just stay mad at the question of whether or not it is a fighting game in the traditional sense.

The fucking game is not a fighting game in a traditional sense nor does it pretend it is. You still have zoning, footises, mix ups, guard breaks, combos and resets in this little random nintendo gamecube disk no bigger than a donut.

So let's be real here: these kids (and lets face it, they were mostly kids to teenagers) took a game, pushed it as far as they could just because they loved it and ended up with something pretty bad ass. The reality of Melee is that for a group of gamers, that IS their SF2. When you sit down and meditate as to why I would call it the SF2 for a new gen of gamers, then you'll understand why arguing about all this shit is inherently dumb as all SRK.

Shawn_P · February 6

d3v, post: 7974929, member: 9887 wrote:

Characters.

For example, you don't see Chun or Yun banned in 3S despite how much they dominate tournaments for that game. Same with MvC2 with how having someone from the top 4 in your team was almost a requirement.

I guess, but the same could be said about Melee. Melee is far from a balanced game character wise, but all of the characters are legal. Also in games like street fighter there was no stage diversity in terms of stages effecting gameplay so you can't really compare it with that.

Items are an entirely different story imo, as the only reason the were banned in Melee (after years of playing with them on in tournaments) was because you could not disable randomly exploding capsules regardless of what was turned on, something fixed in Brawl. It's one of the reasons I agreed with Mr. Wizard's reasoning in '08 to include items since the game was new and no real ruleset had been established for it yet.

And as far as characters, isn't there a game where Akuma is banned? (forgive me lack of knowledge on the subject, didn't start playing street fighter till SF4 Vanilla)

Idk, to me it's a matter of being able to make a distinction between games. Even with our current ruleset, certain characters have terrible matchups, fox is the best character in the game and people simply learned to play against him. We've also never had a patch to fix any of the balance in our game (save for PAL, which actually took things down a few notches in a lot of ways). To compare what could conceivably be bannable in a TFG with what should be banned in Smash is a moot point because they are different games. I understand the distaste for it based on the culture of the communities, but you've never had anything as bad as some of the shit that's disabled in Smash.

Shawn_P · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7974909, member: 7031 wrote:

....Smash is fighting....

You can't unsay it v_v

d3v · February 6

Shawn_P, post: 7974973, member: 55983 wrote:

And as far as characters, isn't there a game where Akuma is banned? (forgive me lack of knowledge on the subject, didn't start playing street fighter till SF4 Vanilla)

Only 1 game (2 if you count HDR) and that's ST. But that's a very, very extreme case. Other than that, bans are generally frowned upon and people who call for such are usually called out for being scrubby.

Mr. X · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7974909, member: 7031 wrote:

Smash is fighting + platforming + items. The latter two are so prominent that it can't be called a pure fighter anymore, it's another type of game. .

It's hard to reply when you're using something like pure fighter like the variations amongst other fighting games don't exist.

Or when you think items are something not in other fighters, both older and younger than Smash.

Shawn_P · February 6

d3v, post: 7974986, member: 9887 wrote:

Only 1 game (2 if you count HDR) and that's ST. But that's a very, very extreme case. Other than that, bans are generally frowned upon and people who call for such are usually called out for being scrubby.

I'm sure it is an extreme case, but the point is that if it can happen when it should happen, then it can happen when it should happen.

Mr. X · February 6

d3v, post: 7974986, member: 9887 wrote:

Only 1 game (2 if you count HDR) and that's ST. But that's a very, very extreme case. Other than that, bans are generally frowned upon and people who call for such are usually called out for being scrubby.

You're silly if you think ST is the only fighting game that banned characters.

Communities have banned characters because it was causing their scene to shrink.

Edit: Why are you talking about the communities? The community doesn't have to do with genres.

d3v · February 6

Shawn_P, post: 7974991, member: 55983 wrote:

I'm sure it is an extreme case, but the point is that if it can happen when it should happen, then it can happen when it should happen.

But it's not seen as the norm nor is there any centralized system to make stuff like it the norm.

Mr. X, post: 7975002, member: 7367 wrote:

You're silly if you think ST is the only fighting game that banned characters.

Because ST Akuma is still the benchmark. And he's also still the only notable one Capcom-wise.

Mr. X, post: 7975002, member: 7367 wrote:

Communities have banned characters because it was causing their scene to shrink.

Edit: Why are you talking about the communities? The community doesn't have to do with genres.

Because, as I previously stated, the real split comes from the communities and the cultures behind them, not the difference in the genre.

In any case, there are more cultural differences on top of one communities proclivity to modify their game to make it competitive. That's just the one that happens to stand out the most.

Shawn_P · February 6

d3v, post: 7975006, member: 9887 wrote:

But it's not seen as the norm nor is there any centralized system to make stuff like it the norm.

It took 12 years for Melee's ruleset to get to where it is now. It's not like we all just decided to ban everything overnight. Quite the contrary. We had a game not designed to be the way it turned out, so it's no surprised something had to be done to mainstream a ruleset.

Still, it's not a discussion worth having unless you actually want to discuss why things were banned in comparison to why Akuma was banned which is even MORE off topic than this thread has already gotten.

d3v · February 6

Shawn_P, post: 7975020, member: 55983 wrote:

It took 12 years for Melee's ruleset to get to where it is now. It's not like we all just decided to ban everything overnight. Quite the contrary. We had a game not designed to be the way it turned out, so it's no surprised something had to be done to mainstream a ruleset.

Which is something that is somewhat alien to the FGC. Which brings us back to my point - as UltraDavid mentioned, the two communities have cultural differences. The drama we're seeing now is because people are trying to shoehorn in one into the other instead of acknowledging the differences.

Shawn_P · February 6

d3v, post: 7975078, member: 9887 wrote:

Which is something that is somewhat alien to the FGC. Which brings us back to my point - as UltraDavid mentioned, the two communities have cultural differences. The drama we're seeing now is because people are trying to shoehorn in one into the other instead of acknowledging the differences.

I really don't disagree that it is foreign to the FGC and I understand why it is disliked by that community, but if you honestly believe that it warrants separating the communities (not saying there aren't other potential reasons for that), then I'm gonna have to disagree. If you can't have an inherent respect for the competitive aspect of game regardless of the circumstance, then that isn't a cultural difference, that is blatant elitism.

Cronopio · February 6

Mr. X, post: 7974988, member: 7367 wrote:

It's hard to reply when you're using something like pure fighter like the variations amongst other fighting games don't exist.

By pure fighter I mean a fighter that has no other genres mixed in, such as platforming.

Or when you think items are something not in other fighters, both older and younger than Smash.

Items are not in other fighters, save a few exceptions that behave nothing like in Smash (see Samurai Shodown). Which is why they are banned in competitive Smash; they are trying to make it look like a proper fighter with that.

Also, banning broken characters is not the same as banning mechanics to turn the game into something else. Banning items and stages in Smash is more like banning parrying in 3S, tagging in Marvel or Customs in Alpha 3. Or banning melee attacks to turn the game into a competitive STG.

Mr. X · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7975175, member: 7031 wrote:

By pure fighter I mean a fighter that has no other genres mixed in, such as platforming.

Items are not in other fighters, save a few exceptions that behave nothing like in Smash (see Samurai Shodown). Which is why they are banned in competitive Smash; they are trying to make it look like a proper fighter with that.

I highly, highly doubt the items are banned for looks.

Shawn_P · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7975175, member: 7031 wrote:

By pure fighter I mean a fighter that has no other genres mixed in, such as platforming.

Items are not in other fighters, save a few exceptions that behave nothing like in Smash (see Samurai Shodown). Which is why they are banned in competitive Smash; they are trying to make it look like a proper fighter with that.

Also, banning broken characters is not the same as banning mechanics to turn the game into something else. Banning items and stages in Smash is more like banning parrying in 3S, tagging in Marvel or Customs in Alpha 3. Or banning melee attacks to turn the game into a competitive STG.

Just, no. Not even gonna dignify that with a thorough response.

Mr. X · February 6

Stages are banned in some fighters.

d3v · February 6

Shawn_P, post: 7975103, member: 55983 wrote:

I really don't disagree that it is foreign to the FGC and I understand why it is disliked by that community, but if you honestly believe that it warrants separating the communities (not saying there aren't other potential reasons for that), then I'm gonna have to disagree. If you can't have an inherent respect for the competitive aspect of game regardless of the circumstance, then that isn't a cultural difference, that is blatant elitism.

But, as UltraDavid pointed out in the article, you can respect the competitive aspect and still consider it separate. It's a simple matter of accepting the fact that the communities and cultures are different.

To quote what David said (yet again).

So I, a Street Fighter player, don’t feel that same sense of community with Smash players that I feel with Marvel players. My issue with Smash isn’t just the game. Hell, I loved playing Melee with my brothers. When the sequel, Super Smash Brothers: Brawl, came out, I tried to take it seriously and even entered tournaments for it. I enjoyed it. But I found the many differences in the community so off-putting that I quit after just a couple months.

Which is something I can relate to. I've had alot of fun playing Smash casually, but it's something it's just not my cup of tea competitively.

Cronopio · February 6

Stages are banned in some fighters.

Not to make the game change genres.

jedpossum · February 6

Mr. X, post: 7975198, member: 7367 wrote:

Stages are banned in some fighters.

Besides Vsav what game has stages banned? The only reason those 2 stages are banned in vsav is cause they're not in the versus mode on arcade.

Mr. X · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7975217, member: 7031 wrote:

Not to make the game change genres.

That didn't make any sense.

Mr. X · February 6

jedpossum, post: 7975230, member: 17765 wrote:

Besides Vsav what game has stages banned? The only reason those 2 stages are banned in vsav is cause they're not in the versus mode on arcade.

KoF XIII - The white stage gives an advantage to characters whose projectiles blend in to the background

I know Soul Calibur had some banned stages, can't remember which ones.

LivewireX · February 6

Wasn't there a vanilla MVC3 stage that was banned because it created lag?

Also, on the whole bit of banning characters. I understand people will compare banning Akuma in Super Turbo to banning Meta Knight in Brawl, but really...the Meta Knight ban to me has always seemed like such a stupid thing as a result of people not knowing how to fight against him. I look at it as more akin to banning original SSFIVAE Yun, or P4A Mitsuru.

Cronopio · February 6

You do realize there's a big difference in banning a stage due to oversights/bugs (blending/slowdown) and banning them because of drastic changes in gameplay, right?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Banned_stage#Banned_stages_in_SSBM

rayplay · February 6

IIRC the SF4 Volcano stage is banned due to how much red there is. I also heard that BB's training stage is soft banned and a lot of UMvC3 stages are banned due to causing slowdown.

Mr. X · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7975271, member: 7031 wrote:

You do realize there's a big difference in banning a stage due to oversights/bugs (blending/slowdown) and banning them because of drastic changes in gameplay, right?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Banned_stage#Banned_stages_in_SSBM

All you are doing is proving poorly designed stages get banned.

Mr. X · February 6

LivewireX, post: 7975266, member: 51072 wrote:

Wasn't there a vanilla MVC3 stage that was banned because it created lag?

Also, on the whole bit of banning characters. I understand people will compare banning Akuma in Super Turbo to banning Meta Knight in Brawl, but really...the Meta Knight ban to me has always seemed like such a stupid thing as a result of people not knowing how to fight against him. I look at it as more akin to banning original SSFIVAE Yun, or P4A Mitsuru.

http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/archives/bbs/messages/19232.shtml

Cronopio · February 6

Mr. X, post: 7975283, member: 7367 wrote:

All you are doing is proving poorly designed stages get banned.

Poorly designed for a competitive fighting game. Something Smash was never intended to be.

Mr. X · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7975293, member: 7031 wrote:

Poorly designed for a competitive fighting game. Something Smash was never intended to be.

I thought we were arguing if it was a fighting game or not. Don't change it to arguing if it's a competitive fighting game now.

Negative-Zer0 · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7975293, member: 7031 wrote:

Poorly designed for a competitive fighting game. Something Smash was never intended to be.

You are actually the worst debater i've seen on this subject yet. Stop.

Rokmode · February 6

Wtf
Why would you ban poke floats?
That stage is like a pokemon acid trip. It's fantastic.

Number 13 · February 6

Someone end this thread or create yet another thread that discusses the Yes and No on how Smash may or may not be a legit fighter for whatever reason. This Thread lost its purposes pages ago

CyclopsPawnch · February 6

Cronopio, post: 7975293, member: 7031 wrote:

Poorly designed for a competitive fighting game. Something Smash was never intended to be.

Intention has nothing to do with execution.

Stage interactivity levels don't cause a game to change genres. Stages and stage positioning/control are but one in many integral factors that of high level gameplay.

Certain stages are banned because 1. They are not playable because of one or more broken/polarizing feature 2. Nobody really wants to play on them anyways.

MK was unbanned ages ago, but again nobody cares about Brawl.

Mr. X · February 6

Smash is like a echinda or platypus. Even though it lays eggs or eggs and has a bill, it's still a mammal.

...unless you guys feel like arguing that as well.

I want that Gundam Extreme VS fighting game in the states :(

janoDX · February 6

Melee is a party brawler just like PSASBR (aka. Sony smash). But both games have fighting game roots, like it or not. Both are fighting games in some ways.

Geese Pants · February 6

Number 13, post: 7975318, member: 67851 wrote:

Someone end this thread or create yet another thread that discusses the Yes and No on how Smash may or may not be a legit fighter for whatever reason. This Thread lost its purposes pages ago

There are already a bunch of threads in the Smash section debating whether or not Smash is a legit fighting game............or why the fighting game community laughs at them.

EVO Player's Choice - CONGRATS SSBM! (Mike Z's closing remarks on OP)

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