2013 UMVC3 SRK Tier/Theory Discussion. First Page Tumblr: Anti MorriDoom/AV Chart, Meter Monsters

Merkyl999x · February 17

It's not that oppressive to anything but rushdown, really.

I know the V.Joe > IM matchup is pretty free. Red Hot Kick is easily to react to with RB and Joe doesn't have the durability to spam against IM + Log (I'm not sure what the durability looks like without log) and without his spam and red hot kick it's pretty hard for him to get in range to use his pizza cutter lite.

His spam has the same issues as non-AV morrigan with worse angles. Once you set up charged vooms it gets a little better, but it still takes a fair amount of setup to get to full flood with him.

Warring Triad · February 17

VASaga said:

Surprised no one mentioned "slow" Being slowed down to a crawl while he chucks voomerangs and assists is highly opressive.

Seems like a matter of preference. It's usually just wasting a meter to watch them tag out and randomly have a slowed character later on.

So what's the concensus on Zero now? Is he as amazing as people have been saying?

TenguEgg · February 17

As amazing as people have been saying? Heck, you can SEE what Zero can do to teams today ( and has been doing ), and there aren't even any top players picking him, or any execution specialists backing him with an optimal team, closest I would say in recent memory is Richard Nguyen, but even then, hes not like top 5-10 in the world like the people that are constantly winning majors.

Anyway since we're talking bout top tiers again, where do you think Vergil places as far as point character strictly? Its clear hes a top 3 anchor, probably the best when he gets going, probably a top 5 2nd, but I haven't seen enough Vergil on point with optimized teams - aka, teams that don't just give him OTG+Beam or Vajra -, to really pinpoint him myself.

I just don't really know much about his start of the round options compared to like, Magneto or Wolverine.

CasualHero · February 17

Vergil's only weakness as a starting character is he doesn't have full access to meter to make him as retarded as possible.

But considering he's a top 3 point character when he hits the ground no matter what assist is backing him, and if you start him on point he starts the game with two feet firmly planted, he's pretty ridiculous.

M.D. · February 17

Someone suggested banning AV? Go back to Unity with that noise.

I still consider Morrigan as the floaty risky player she's always been since vanilla mvc3, only now she has a purpose in the the game other than mediocre air dash pressure; filling the screen with shit. If you make a team that can't get through shit, then you have a shit team, and you don't need morridoom to tell you that.

Man, I hate it when people start talking about banning OP stuff in a game fill of OP stuff.

DrWsGreatest · February 18

In regards to the plink dash talk earlier, as a pad player I find it pretty much impossible to plink dash. I also can't really seem to Kara stuff just becuz on a pad the timing to do these things seems to be a little too tight for me to press the buttons at the necessary times. I have no plans to switch to a stick anytime soon since I honestly have tons of other things that could use that $ for. So is there anyone who plays on a pad who's found a consistent way to pull these things off?

DevilJin 01 · February 18

@aoishi2al

Nope. [-(

Viper should be banned.

LegendaryDJ · February 18

DrWsGreatest said:

In regards to the plink dash talk earlier, as a pad player I find it pretty much impossible to plink dash. I also can't really seem to Kara stuff just becuz on a pad the timing to do these things seems to be a little too tight for me to press the buttons at the necessary times. I have no plans to switch to a stick anytime soon since I honestly have tons of other things that could use that $ for. So is there anyone who plays on a pad who's found a consistent way to pull these things off?

It's just a timing thing. If you have dash set to a shoulder button, it's just a matter of just practicing. H, dash, H, dash, H, dash, etc. Or however you have your dash button set up. As a pad player, I haven't found much difficulty doing it when I want to. I'm just bad at keeping it up consistently, but that's more because it's a new thing for me to learn. My dash button is actually L+H, so I'm plinking M, dash, M dash, M dash. I might change my dash button to M+H and see how well L, dash works for me.

NonSexualRice · February 18

DrWsGreatest said:

In regards to the plink dash talk earlier, as a pad player I find it pretty much impossible to plink dash. I also can't really seem to Kara stuff just becuz on a pad the timing to do these things seems to be a little too tight for me to press the buttons at the necessary times. I have no plans to switch to a stick anytime soon since I honestly have tons of other things that could use that $ for. So is there anyone who plays on a pad who's found a consistent way to pull these things off?

People make the biggest commotion about plinking. I'm a pad player and I plink dash all the time, Hell I even Feral Plink dash.

Just use two buttons and hit one slightly after the other along with back. That's it.

SodaPOP · February 18

Yeah, as a pad player plink dashing comes incredibly easy. I have my right shoulder button set to L+M and the far right face button ("O" on PS3, "B" on 360) set to H and use those to plink.

If you're a pad player and not taking advantage of how simple it is to plink dash on pad, you're messing up.

DrWsGreatest · February 18

LegendaryDJ wrote: »

DrWsGreatest said: 
In regards to the plink dash talk earlier, as a pad player I find it pretty much impossible to plink dash. I also can't really seem to Kara stuff just becuz on a pad the timing to do these things seems to be a little too tight for me to press the buttons at the necessary times. I have no plans to switch to a stick anytime soon since I honestly have tons of other things that could use that $ for. So is there anyone who plays on a pad who's found a consistent way to pull these things off? 
 
 
/>
 
It's just a timing thing. If you have dash set to a shoulder button, it's just a matter of just practicing. H, dash, H, dash, H, dash, etc. Or however you have your dash button set up. As a pad player, I haven't found much difficulty doing it when I want to. I'm just bad at keeping it up consistently, but that's more because it's a new thing for me to learn. My dash button is actually L+H, so I'm plinking M, dash, M dash, M dash. I might change my dash button to M+H and see how well L, dash works for me.

Yea I use zero and have my L2 set to L and my R1 set to M+H. Thanks for linking me that video tho. Like u said I just have to practice it. I got LLs down eventually and that was a pain in the ass since I used the directional a and not the joystick on the pad. The only other thing I really can't do is bold cancel with Dante. I tried getting it for weeks and then finally gave up becuz I'm already playing zero and strider so and gave them most of my practice time since I'm really limited on how much time I can put into the game period. Thanks again!

scytheavatar · February 18

Warring Triad said:

So what's the concensus on Zero now? Is he as amazing as people have been saying?

Consensus seems to be that Zero is the best character in the game, but no one will ever win a major with him. Because Zero players are cursed to be chokers.

HyperShieldSlash · February 18

Viper is actually better than Zero, as she needn't land a hit to dominate the match.

Frantic · February 18

I suppose this could be put here as well.

Various bits of Dante tech, of which one is a fuzzy guard that works on 13 different characters.

Robotic · February 18

Merkyl999x said:

It's not that oppressive to anything but rushdown, really.

I know the V.Joe > IM matchup is pretty free. Red Hot Kick is easily to react to with RB and Joe doesn't have the durability to spam against IM + Log (I'm not sure what the durability looks like without log) and without his spam and red hot kick it's pretty hard for him to get in range to use his pizza cutter lite.

His spam has the same issues as non-AV morrigan with worse angles. Once you set up charged vooms it gets a little better, but it still takes a fair amount of setup to get to full flood with him.

If you get log trap, why doesn't v.joe? In that situation Joe would win free. For that matter joe would win free with any high durability beam, hidden missiles, bolts, drones, and a few other choice assists. A lone joe might lose, but if you can use assists so can the other guy.

VASaga · February 18

Zero will start winning majors when people realize his optimal position is 2nd.

serpentaurus · February 18

VASaga said:

Zero will start winning majors when people realize his optimal position is 2nd.

haha, inb4 i dont even need my sword to win Zero memes

Ouroborus · February 18

zero first gets combo extensions from assists and turns umvc3 into a one player game if he lands a hit.

Climhazzardous · February 18

Left side lightning loops :(

Robotic · February 18

Am I the only one who finds the left side easier to do inputs on than the right?

The Ultimator · February 18

I don't think Zero isn't the best character in the game since he's mediocre at getting in against zoning, but he's Top 5 easy, and without a doubt one of the Top 3 point characters.

And since people are bringing this up, Vergil's weakest position is on point imo.

DevilJin 01 · February 18

Vergil and Zero become much better point characters when they have harmonizer assist behind them. I personally believe point is Vergil's best spot if you put harmonizer behind him.

Robotic wrote: »

Merkyl999x said: 
It's not that oppressive to anything but rushdown, really. 
 
I know the V.Joe > IM matchup is pretty free. Red Hot Kick is easily to react to with RB and Joe doesn't have the durability to spam against IM + Log (I'm not sure what the durability looks like without log) and without his spam and red hot kick it's pretty hard for him to get in range to use his pizza cutter lite. 
 
His spam has the same issues as non-AV morrigan with worse angles. Once you set up charged vooms it gets a little better, but it still takes a fair amount of setup to get to full flood with him. 
 
 
If you get log trap, why doesn't v.joe? In that situation Joe would win free. For that matter joe would win free with any high durability beam, hidden missiles, bolts, drones, and a few other choice assists. A lone joe might lose, but if you can use assists so can the other guy.

She just has to do the same thing Wolverine does which is run in before shit starts.

The Ultimator · February 18

I was thinking second was a better spot since Vergil would have access to XF2 + assist + some meter, but him on point with Harmonizer would be beyond retarded.

Merkyl999x · February 18

@Robotic: Our spammy Joe plays with Tatsu and Missiles/beams/rock and I know those aren't an issue to counterzone on. I don't know what the durability wars look 1 on 1 since it just doesn't happen very often but I'm pretty sure c.H missile (beats out Tatsu for some reason and I think cart, also) + beam puts out more than joe can from range and stops him from being able to get started. I'm not sure how it stacks up for situations where IM doesn't have enough time to get out a cr.H though. On our Joe, it's easy enough to get on the other side of him and return to neutral. In full flood situations you might be able to use IM's air dash up > smart bombs and logs to stop the flood long enough to turn the tide, but I'm not 100% on that.

DevilJin 01 said:
She just has to do the same thing Wolverine does which is run in before shit starts.

Joe's not a soft rushdown since he always has v.Dodge > Invincible super > combo to fall back on as long as he has meters on top of good enough mobility to mix you up with kusoru tactics if you're constantly pushing forward (anytime you get inside the range of his triple jump red hot kick, which happens to match the range on Log pretty closely, too). If you go back and watch the kusoru matches you can see how he was always trying to keep his opponents inside that range and used most of his meter for reversals. I feel like he becomes really weak against people that can stay out of that range cover his main attack angles (the diagonal from SJ height and straight across at ground level, and that only works when he can put out more durability than the opposing character.) If he gets inside with frame advantage I feel like he has enough mixups to get a solid hit.

Smoothjazz101 · February 18

Can anybody point me to a list of character size categories?

Ouroborus · February 18

DevilJin 01 said:

Vergil and Zero become much better point characters when they have harmonizer assist behind them. I personally believe point is Vergil's best spot if you put harmonizer behind him.

seeing how zero already builds an absurd amount of meter, i don't see how he'll benefit off dark harmonizer.

DevilJin 01 · February 18

@ouroborus

You can't build meter without making contact and some characters aren't going to sit on the ground all day to let you buster and swing sword at them. Harmonizer gives you much more access to sogenmu to help clear up the screen while zoning or running away.

Plus makes having his level 3 in the neutral more reliable which basically gives Zero a near fulll screen get off me.

leafcolonel · February 18

Merkyl is actually right. V.Joe's zoning is actually very susceptible to characters with quick high durability beams like H Disruptor/Unibeam/plasma beam/optic blast and the like. Iron Man outclasses him in durability, but it also depends on what assists each player is using, but Log Trap will give Joe a whole lot of trouble.

I'm not that big of a fan of the Dark Harmonizer theory you guys are using. It makes sense if you would want to run a team where Morrigan comes in with momentum with Astral Vision. But as an assist overall it's mediocre and if your character can protect it I'd rather have an assist that dominates the neutral further and helps me get in like Missiles, most beam assists, bolts and the like. None of those characters are as good as Morrigan, but their assists are certainly more dominating in neutral and give you the opportunity to build meter by approaching and forcing them to block stuff. I would fear a Vergil with Jam or Disruptor + Missiles behind him more so than Dark Harmonizer + Missiles. It's a good assist, but it's certainly not optimized for neutral even for meter hungry characters like Vergil.

Robotic · February 18

The problem with stopping Joe's zoning with more durability is that you shouldn't even be able to get started. Even Disruptor will get stuffed by all of that shit the dude flings. You gotta have an assist that comes out behind the point character if you want to clear the screen, but even that's not a given since Joe has assists too and he's one of the better characters at sniping assists. Lets be honest, the dude is going to have 2 or more vooms on the screen at a time and 10 durability points is not something to laugh at, so if you've gotta use the higher durability projectiles with more start up (unless you're doom for some reason) you're already in a tough spot.

Again, I wonder how Joe with log trap would do against IM with log trap.

leafcolonel · February 18

Iron Man's crH(5 points) xx Unibeam(5 low points L, 11 points H) is nothing to laugh at either. Iron Man has a pretty annoying zoning game with assists himself with Repulsar Blasts and Unibeams, it's not terribly effective due to his ass mobility but it's annoying.

Joe actually struggles in zoning vs Magneto due to the startup of H Disruptor(17f with 12 durability points, which is around the startup of a single boxdash voomerang if you include the jumping and landing frames etc). L/H Disruptor also works well in shutting down his charged voomerang game too.

Most zoning wars also rely heavily on assists like you said and it depends on which assist each player is using. But overall beams whether point based or beam assists(unibeam/plasma beam/bolts) help deny boxdash voomerang zoning pretty well.

Robotic · February 18

There are like all of 4 good joes in the world and two of them aren't even in America so most of this is speculation on my end, to be fair. I just feel like joe can get started easier and shut other options down. He can avoid zoning spectacularly as well with his triple jump. I don't know, I see Dieminion wreck people playing all sorts of characters with only one neutral assist and it's hard not to think Joe is really good.

TMNTemps · February 18

joe outzones magneto so bad. he outzones almost anyone, once he gets his first voomerang out he will control the pace of any zoning game for a long time to come

Robotic · February 18

Unless you're zero. Charged buster fucks him so much.

Warring Triad · February 18

VASaga said:

Zero will start winning majors when people realize his optimal position is 2nd.

Explain this. I have a second Zero, so this sounds interesting.

Anyways, I've been playing Zero/Joe/Dante(Sent) and I can say that Joe gets messed up by sword normals up close, gets messed with my teleports, and gets shut down by quick beams. His best gambit is shutting down the floor, but Hulk and Cap give no fucks about this, and beams make it hard to get it all started again. Of course, having a quick beam of your own is really good for owning the floor, but Doom anchor is the only viable beam I can think of since I can't play Strange, and I don't like Doom all that much sometimes. That, and Bolts isn't a very quick beam.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · February 18

TMNTemps wrote: »

joe outzones magneto so bad. he outzones almost anyone, once he gets his first voomerang out he will control the pace of any zoning game for a long time to come

I'd rather be chucking mag blast opposed to voomerangs.....

just5moreminutes · February 18

If you are fighting Cap as Joe, just call assists and throw grounded Voomerangs. Most Caps are dumb enough to try and Hyper Charging Star Joe when he is grounded.

WorstPlayer · February 18

just5moreminutes said:

If you are fighting Cap as Joe, just call assists and throw grounded Voomerangs. Most Caps are dumb enough to try and Hyper Charging Star Joe when he is grounded.

they'll probably just regular charging star and play chicken with you on recovery. Hyper Stars and Stripes I think will just go through Mach Speed.

NonSexualRice · February 18

Either this is the longest we've spent talking about one single character or this forum has becoming ludicrously slow.

Joe to me is dry both as a character and as a discussion. On that note, I think he's a very good zoner and fills his niche as being annoying as hell to a Tee.

Ouroborus · February 18

well, we did talk about viper and zero for over a year

OMG its a duck · February 18

Ouroborus said:

well, we did talk about viper and zero for over a year

It stopped?

just5moreminutes · February 18

WorstPlayer said:

just5moreminutes said:

If you are fighting Cap as Joe, just call assists and throw grounded Voomerangs. Most Caps are dumb enough to try and Hyper Charging Star Joe when he is grounded.

they'll probably just regular charging star and play chicken with you on recovery. Hyper Stars and Stripes I think will just go through Mach Speed.

That's way too much thought for the average Cap player. Most of 'em don't seem to realize that Charging Star is horrendously unsafe on block somehow. It's the same guys that do raw Bionic Arm.

ShieldSkills · February 18

Call Unibeam + Charging Star >>>>

The Ultimator · February 19

just5moreminutes said:

WorstPlayer said:

just5moreminutes said:

If you are fighting Cap as Joe, just call assists and throw grounded Voomerangs. Most Caps are dumb enough to try and Hyper Charging Star Joe when he is grounded.

they'll probably just regular charging star and play chicken with you on recovery. Hyper Stars and Stripes I think will just go through Mach Speed.

That's way too much thought for the average Cap player. Most of 'em don't seem to realize that Charging Star is horrendously unsafe on block somehow. It's the same guys that do raw Bionic Arm.

And yet raw Bionic Arm still gets tournament results today somehow.....

HyperShieldSlash · February 19

Hearing all these voices speaking of the great and powerful Steve Rogers has awoken me from my slumber... Shield Slash assist is completely godlike, despite it not having good durability. It gives Mayor's slow ass 2 mixups on block. Imagine it behind a good character, like Firedunk, or Slamneto...

The Co-Jones · February 19

The slightly better Cap players use assist (Unibeam, Plasma Beam, Drones, Missiles) when they Charging Star, and then the high-level mind game begins with either a delayed Hyper Charging Star or a Hyper Stars & Stripes or doing absolutely nothing.

Ouroborus · February 19

unibeam + shield skills = X(

AceKillah · February 19

good thing Iron Man sucks.

GameHova · February 19

Iron man does not suck just take a really long learning curve. stop randomly air dashing, tony isn't magneto more bunny hop and flight cancel.

P. Gorath · February 19

The Co-Jones said:

The slightly better Cap players use assist (Unibeam, Plasma Beam, Drones, Missiles) when they Charging Star, and then the high-level mind game begins with either a delayed Hyper Charging Star or a Hyper Stars & Stripes or doing absolutely nothing.

lol at being able to differentiate Cap players

KJunk · February 19

If you're abusing his assists, TAC infinites and/or Proton Cannon THCs, he's a playable support character. Your teams with him are probably mid-tierish.

If you're expecting him to match up against real characters like Zero, Vergil and Magneto, you're going to have a bad time.

Tony's air dashes aren't even the main problem, it's his ground dashes that really fuck him over. Not being able to cancel those whenever is a huge problem. His air dashes are a mixed bag of good and bad, but his ground dash is just always awful.

I think his most serious players (Danke, Joker and Alukard) would say the same or have already said it, too.

2013 UMVC3 SRK Tier/Theory Discussion. First Page Tumblr: Anti MorriDoom/AV Chart, Meter Monsters

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