2015 UMVC3 SRK Tier/Theory Discussion. 7/10 First Page Tumblr: Power of snapback, Future power teams

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  • rylander2rylander2 Joined: Posts: 91
    What is Doom actually better than Dante at that relates to getting shot to shit with projectiles? Because unless you can get past that without a THC you're already worse than Dante.
    Doom has a far better airgame, he's a better zoner, his normals are better, his mixups are better, his movement is way better, and his air pokes are some of the best in the game. Dante only has a stronger ground game but Doom never has to be on the ground. Have any of you idiots ever actually played this game?

    Edit: Also, Doom kills off of every touch and converts off every touch.
  • DiscarnateDiscarnate Keep Calm and Don't Allow Them To Play Joined: Posts: 157
    The only place Doom's point game is better than Dante's is Online.

    2 bar footdives need nerfs.

    But this is also the same place that Hulk is top tier.

    :coffee:
    I'm just Fraudlike
    UMvC3: Spy May Stride (alt: Zero/Doom/Phoenix)
    Melee/Brawl: Peach (M alt: Young Link) (Brwl alt: Falco) SF4: Viper (alts: Cammy/Yun) SFxT: Cammy x Lili
    Sometimes I need to be alone, Doom don't kill my vibe. - Play Melee its a good game. - Learning Skullbabes
  • tabtab the impossible dream Joined: Posts: 1,993
    something makes me want to believe that dante is equal to doom but you actually play that guy so ?????

    also thanks for making me realize footdive is basically hammer but like ten thousand times better
  • FluxFlux Fair is overrated Joined: Posts: 980
    I'd like to see dieminion play joe/strange/doom...

    He picked it on me at the January Local Battles monthly. I'd never seen him play it (or seen that team in general) so I had a really hard time. Until Joe goes down, its very scary.

    Welp
  • AceKillahAceKillah behind the scenes Joined: Posts: 15,813
    Ton of invinciblity. It's still invincible and bops a ton of stuff. Now you just cant flowchart with it as hard. Half his meter gain is an exaggeration. A good Dante combo in vanilla built around 2.8 - 3.5 bars unless your talking about looping acid rain more then 3 times which was pretty finicky against most characters. The range on his normals is still crazy even with the frames not being great. He lost 5A but in return they made 5B better as an AA.

    So lets make a list.
    -nerfed hitstun on a lot specials a lot of specials gained hitstun instead of ignoring it which made his meter game from holy shit thats retarded to goddamn thats a lot of meter
    -nerfed damage from goddamn why did he kill me off that to oh ok now he has to reset me to kill me (unless he has Vergil/Zero/Dorm dhc)
    -nerfed 5A hitstun and hitbox
    -slightly nerfed the start-up invul on hammer

    explain to me how that ISN'T a slightly nerfed character. the only character higher on the list of "this character should have been nerfed hard as fuck but instead got away with a slap on the wrist" then Dante is Magneto.

    -Doom has a better airgame true but Dante has the option of burning a bar then having a better air game then Doom that can actually compete with the other top tiers air game
    -Doom is not a better zoner wtf are you smoking
    -His normals are better? See now you just trolling
    -His mixups are better? Ok I'm done.
    "Smash is the Walmart of fighting games. There's nothing inherently wrong with Walmart, but damned if I don't want 95% of its clientele to burn to death." -Vynce
  • SiriusBlackSiriusBlack Nice Joined: Posts: 4,100
    Doom never has to be on the ground? I guess that's why his air game is so useful against Morrigan, Hawkeye, Magneto, Zero and Dorm.

    Wait...
    Wolv/Spencer/Akuma or Wesker/Doom/Spencer
    Spencer/Doom/Ammy or Mag/Doom/Ammy because A-bomb
    http://i48.tinypic.com/1fwva0.png
  • TMNTempsTMNTemps brozhear Joined: Posts: 4,202
    Dante lost a ton of invincibility on hammer, half of his meter gain and damage per combo, the best anti air in the game by a landslide (5A), vanilla acid rain loops, and lots of range on his normals. He was also one of the best and most convenient DHC glitch recipients. He could even do the glitch, but he didn't need to because that would mean he lost meter he could have gained from killing you solo. He was also arguably the best in the game at using both invincible assists and now those no longer exist. In return, air play was slightly buffed, and he gained Vajra assist which is way worse than either invincible assist. How is this a slightly nerfed character?
    considering how good he was in the first place, even with those crazy nerfs he's still really good. Vanilla Dante was out of control, way too stupid, way too good, and he spoiled everybody. Now people would rather QQ about new Dante instead of learning how to play him for real
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,797 mod
    Doom never has to be on the ground? I guess that's why his air game is so useful against Morrigan, Hawkeye, Magneto and Dorm.

    Wait...

    Yeah unless there's a way for Doom to actually do any of that shit against those characters which are very prominent in tourneys...I'm not getting it.

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  • SiriusBlackSiriusBlack Nice Joined: Posts: 4,100
    considering how good he was in the first place, even with those crazy nerfs he's still really good. Vanilla Dante was out of control, way too stupid, way too good, and he spoiled everybody. Now people would rather QQ about new Dante instead of learning how to play him for real

    Sounds like DmC.
    Wolv/Spencer/Akuma or Wesker/Doom/Spencer
    Spencer/Doom/Ammy or Mag/Doom/Ammy because A-bomb
    http://i48.tinypic.com/1fwva0.png
  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,558
    my doom has the best mixups and my dante's mixup is qcb H xx devil trigger
    youtube mvci/sfv/etc. twitter @delbuster
  • DiscarnateDiscarnate Keep Calm and Don't Allow Them To Play Joined: Posts: 157
    Guys the hidden Point Doom tech is the same place as the hidden Strange Thor top 2 tech.
    I'm just Fraudlike
    UMvC3: Spy May Stride (alt: Zero/Doom/Phoenix)
    Melee/Brawl: Peach (M alt: Young Link) (Brwl alt: Falco) SF4: Viper (alts: Cammy/Yun) SFxT: Cammy x Lili
    Sometimes I need to be alone, Doom don't kill my vibe. - Play Melee its a good game. - Learning Skullbabes
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    my doom has the best mixups and my dante's mixup is qcb H xx devil trigger
    He doesn't even have a QCB H move.

    You are some hardcore wizard.
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • ShieldSkillsShieldSkills Joined: Posts: 1,643
    Doom got better movement than teleport characters now?
    Akuma/Arthur/Hawkeye.
  • DiscarnateDiscarnate Keep Calm and Don't Allow Them To Play Joined: Posts: 157
    He doesn't even have a QCB H move.

    You are some hardcore wizard.

    Jet Stream is qcb H iirc
    I'm just Fraudlike
    UMvC3: Spy May Stride (alt: Zero/Doom/Phoenix)
    Melee/Brawl: Peach (M alt: Young Link) (Brwl alt: Falco) SF4: Viper (alts: Cammy/Yun) SFxT: Cammy x Lili
    Sometimes I need to be alone, Doom don't kill my vibe. - Play Melee its a good game. - Learning Skullbabes
  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,558
    dante has a qcb H move

    doom has better movement than dr strange [a teleport character], better air mobility than jill [also a teleport character], pls stop generalizing

    generalizing goes nowhere in "theory" only "how to play the game well"
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  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    Jet Stream is qcb H iirc
    Wait.....wait...you're telling me it's not HCB?

    I've been doing HCB for 2 years? Foolishness
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • DankeDanke Superior Tech. Joined: Posts: 1,302
    Anyone want to bet against Doom winning the major again? Oh wait it's just because the good players are choosing to play doom out of character love and he has never ever killed a character while out on the field!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,558
    wait doom won apex right

    ill bet that he wins SCR too

    radagasts on doom
    youtube mvci/sfv/etc. twitter @delbuster
  • SiriusBlackSiriusBlack Nice Joined: Posts: 4,100
    Anyone want to bet against Doom winning the major again? Oh wait it's just because the good players are choosing to play doom out of character love and he has never ever killed a character while out on the field!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yes. Doom won the majors... all by his lonesome. Are you Doom? That was a very Doom-like thing to say.
    GIR_DOOM_1280x1025_Background_by_Chaossity.png

    Doom lost the last few majors, too btw.
    Wolv/Spencer/Akuma or Wesker/Doom/Spencer
    Spencer/Doom/Ammy or Mag/Doom/Ammy because A-bomb
    http://i48.tinypic.com/1fwva0.png
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    But Doom loses to.....
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • DiscarnateDiscarnate Keep Calm and Don't Allow Them To Play Joined: Posts: 157
    When will people realize just because a character is on the winning team of people who win majors it doesn't make the character better than the rest without question.
    I'm just Fraudlike
    UMvC3: Spy May Stride (alt: Zero/Doom/Phoenix)
    Melee/Brawl: Peach (M alt: Young Link) (Brwl alt: Falco) SF4: Viper (alts: Cammy/Yun) SFxT: Cammy x Lili
    Sometimes I need to be alone, Doom don't kill my vibe. - Play Melee its a good game. - Learning Skullbabes
  • guiarroyosguiarroyos What kind of sorcery is this? Joined: Posts: 123
    For me Dante is at least mid tier. He has good assists and brings a awesome THC. I can deal with him pretty well though, specially online (most online Dantes just know teleport + "helm breaker", lag helps you to block if there is an assist crossing up :D)
    He is a worst version of Vergil overall.
    UMvC3: Magneto - Dr. Strange - Dr. Doom
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    MK9: Rain - Ermac
    Injustice: Raven - Batman
  • SiriusBlackSiriusBlack Nice Joined: Posts: 4,100
    Well, Vergil has a bigger dick.
    Wolv/Spencer/Akuma or Wesker/Doom/Spencer
    Spencer/Doom/Ammy or Mag/Doom/Ammy because A-bomb
    http://i48.tinypic.com/1fwva0.png
  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,660
    Saying that Doom is winning majors , is like giving credit to Dante on a Zero/Dante team.

    Morridoom is winning majors, not Doom
  • AlMoStLeGeNdArYAlMoStLeGeNdArY Optimize or Die Joined: Posts: 2,238
    Doom never has to be on the ground? I guess that's why his air game is so useful against Morrigan, Hawkeye, Magneto, Zero and Dorm.

    Wait...

    So because dooms air game is weak against a handful of characters it's bad? I see what exactly does dante do vs those characters?
  • DankeDanke Superior Tech. Joined: Posts: 1,302
    Damn if only there had been a doom player dominating the west coast without morrigan...
    XBL GT: Das Danke Twitter: https://twitter.com/DasDanke
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TeamBrownTown (Fighting game tips, tricks, and combo videos including the Superior Tech series.)
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  • AlMoStLeGeNdArYAlMoStLeGeNdArY Optimize or Die Joined: Posts: 2,238
    Damn if only there had been a doom player dominating the west coast without morrigan...

    Careful we don't want to bring results into a theory thread.
  • DiscarnateDiscarnate Keep Calm and Don't Allow Them To Play Joined: Posts: 157
    For me Dante is at least mid tier. He has good assists and brings a awesome THC. I can deal with him pretty well though, specially online (most online Dantes just know teleport + "helm breaker", lag helps you to block if there is an assist crossing up :D)
    He is a worst version of Vergil overall.
    For me Dante is at least mid tier. He has good assists and brings a awesome THC. I can deal with him pretty well though, specially online (most online Dantes just know teleport + "helm breaker", lag helps you to block if there is an assist crossing up :D)
    He is a worst version of Vergil overall.
    (most online Dantes just know teleport + "helm breaker", lag helps you to block if there is an assist crossing up :D)
    He is a worst version of Vergil overall
    (most online Dantes just know teleport + "helm breaker", lag helps you to block if there is an assist crossing up :D)
    online

    This can't be used in an argument because the game isnt built around online or played online at the highest level.
    Vergil and Dante are very different characters anyway, and are far from clones or palette swaps.
    I'm just Fraudlike
    UMvC3: Spy May Stride (alt: Zero/Doom/Phoenix)
    Melee/Brawl: Peach (M alt: Young Link) (Brwl alt: Falco) SF4: Viper (alts: Cammy/Yun) SFxT: Cammy x Lili
    Sometimes I need to be alone, Doom don't kill my vibe. - Play Melee its a good game. - Learning Skullbabes
  • ShieldSkillsShieldSkills Joined: Posts: 1,643
    So because dooms air game is weak against a handful of characters it's bad? I see what exactly does dante do vs those characters?
    not just a handful of characters, if you notice those are among the ones that you're most likely to see at a tournament. Outside of Hawkeye.
    Akuma/Arthur/Hawkeye.
  • NonSexualRiceNonSexualRice Riding The VaporWave Joined: Posts: 3,585
    For me Dante is at least mid tier. He has good assists and brings a awesome THC. I can deal with him pretty well though, specially online (most online Dantes just know teleport + "helm breaker", lag helps you to block if there is an assist crossing up :D)
    He is a worst version of Vergil overall.

    holy shit this post is awful.
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  • CasualHeroCasualHero It's only random if it beat you. Joined: Posts: 266
    Man, theory thread went full retard pretty quick.
    SSF4AE: Abel/Yun
    UMvC3: A Team) Spidey/MODOK/Dr. Doom Testing: Dr. Strange/RR, Magneto/Sentinel/Dante
    TTT2: Kazuya/Armor King
    SFxT2013: oh god, I'm playing like everyone trying to find a team
  • SiriusBlackSiriusBlack Nice Joined: Posts: 4,100
    So because dooms air game is weak against a handful of characters it's bad? I see what exactly does dante do vs those characters?

    I was dismissing the false notion that Doom "never has to be on the ground." Also add Strange to that list that forces him out of super jump height - that list wasn't exclusive, merely exemplary. Hell V Joe shuts Doom down.

    But, if I must. Teleport characters can close the gap on Morrigan, Hawkeye, Strange and Dorm to maul them if their main focus is zoning. Teleports timed well can screw up Morrigan's inputs. The mere fact that Dante has a teleport makes all those characters' zoning strategy sub-optimal. Tack on the fact that he has his own projectiles and Devil Trigger and zoning is less of an issue. I'm not going to run down the intricacies of each matchup because as I said that wasn't the intent of my post. But pretending Doom is some untouchable aerial character is laughable as many characters even make Zero cautious about what he does in the air.
    Wolv/Spencer/Akuma or Wesker/Doom/Spencer
    Spencer/Doom/Ammy or Mag/Doom/Ammy because A-bomb
    http://i48.tinypic.com/1fwva0.png
  • triplexraidertriplexraider Fall into darkness! Joined: Posts: 1,057
    In reality, it probably is, and would be more likely to win a major as of now. However, if the player was a true master of Firebrand/Dorm/Dante, you are going to see 300% combos out the ass because he has two assists that set up his unblockables. If we are going by the best possible team at the highest level of play possible, I think Firebrand would be better for that team than Magneto.

    If you had to put Magneto, Dante/Dorm/Magneto would be better.

    Firebrand/Dorm/Dante feels more like a Firebrand-optimized team than Dorm though. Which of Firebrand's assists really help Dorm? Dante/Dorm/Magneto feels more like a optimized Dorm-based team.
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  • SaitsuSaitsu When a Kid, Becomes a Legend Joined: Posts: 34,883
    Man, theory thread went full retard pretty quick.

    You mean since post 1?
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  • AlMoStLeGeNdArYAlMoStLeGeNdArY Optimize or Die Joined: Posts: 2,238
    I was dismissing the false notion that Doom "never has to be on the ground." Also add Strange to that list that forces him out of super jump height - that list wasn't exclusive, merely exemplary. Hell V Joe shuts Doom down.

    But, if I must. Teleport characters can close the gap on Morrigan, Hawkeye, Strange and Dorm to maul them if their main focus is zoning. Teleports timed well can screw up Morrigan's inputs. The mere fact that Dante has a teleport makes all those characters' zoning strategy sub-optimal. Tack on the fact that he has his own projectiles and Devil Trigger and zoning is less of an issue. I'm not going to run down the intricacies of each matchup because as I said that wasn't the intent of my post. But pretending Doom is some untouchable aerial character is laughable as many characters even make Zero cautious about what he does in the air.


    That makes more sense. The Dante teleport thing isn't necessarily true. With Dante you just gotta bait him into the teleport and punish. If catches you out there then that's a different story. Also for me knowing where Dante will be every time he teleports makes it easier to punish. I don't have to guess where he will be. That's pretty big difference when compared to other characters who can teleport.
  • leafcolonelleafcolonel Apprentice of Magnetism Joined: Posts: 1,913
    Both characters are top tier support characters and will make up most of the end game teams due to the strength of their support value.

    But if you actually think Dr Doom's point capabilities are anywhere near as good as Dante's you are crazy. The only flaws Dante has is crappy startup on normals and the worst punishment ability in the game.

    Other than that he has it all and is complete as characters get while doing well vs most of the top tiers except Vergil(but who beats Vergil in the first place). Unlike Doom who relies on the opponent actually fucking up their combo or keepaway to actually win. Let's count dropped combos into reversal footdives as why Dr Doom is top 3 after Thor/Strange shall we?
  • SiriusBlackSiriusBlack Nice Joined: Posts: 4,100
    That may be the case. But he at least has that as a lesser option to Devil Trigger whereas Doom just bends over and takes it while praying for a mistake.
    Wolv/Spencer/Akuma or Wesker/Doom/Spencer
    Spencer/Doom/Ammy or Mag/Doom/Ammy because A-bomb
    http://i48.tinypic.com/1fwva0.png
  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,660
    Careful we don't want to bring results into a theory thread.
    I just love to here how Doom is apparently deserves all credit for winning over Magneto, and Vergil


    If Doom is apparently top 3 before Morrigan by results, there is something wrong with you.
  • leafcolonelleafcolonel Apprentice of Magnetism Joined: Posts: 1,913
    That makes more sense. The Dante teleport thing isn't necessarily true. With Dante you just gotta bait him into the teleport and punish. If catches you out there then that's a different story. Also for me knowing where Dante will be every time he teleports makes it easier to punish. I don't have to guess where he will be. That's pretty big difference when compared to other characters who can teleport.

    lol

    People still believe Dante's teleport is punishable. It is not. You are throwing him out of the startup of jH/jS. His teleport is not humanly punishable nor punishable by AI. Please test this stuff before spreading this around. And with the assists he should be using (Disruptor/Vajra), you have to hold extremely thoughtful 100% safe full screen 50/50s.
  • KefKef Joined: Posts: 3,170
    Man, some of you guys really have to explain better how you are talking about Doom.

    Of course every top player is using Doom, he's the best support character. If you think PR Rog picked up Doom because he is an amazing point character, than you are lying to yourself. This character is giving Wolverine one of his best assists (Plasma Beam), a safe DHC, and the ability of killing the entire cast out of a 33% guess. Nah but Doom with Rapid Slash so top tier man.

    FChamp = Assist + Meter
    Infrit = Assist
    Shady/CJ/Rog = Assist + TAC
    Chris G = Assist
    Dios X = ... Point with Drones backing him up. Does he even play that anymore?

    Doom is a great character only because of the way the game is. A matchup is a matchup but he can end very quickly seeing how he has great conversions from anywhere and his damage is fantastic. One hit ends a bad matchup. Keeping into account this, this is still not the way to judge characters in a list because then we would be talking about a damage list and Strange would be TRULY Top 2 (well 1).

    Doom has a handful (or more) of bad matchups. Magneto, Zero, Dormammu, Hawkeye, Vergil, etc. Now imagine the same matchups with Dante. Does Dante struggle more than Doom against Magneto? Against Zero? Hawkeye? Vergil? Hell no. He probably goes 5-5 against all of them and might even beat Hawkeye IMO. But why is this? Because that's just the way it is? No, because simply he has better tools, period.

    Dante has better normals, better zoning, and even when talking about point Dante + assist, better mixups. Until you experience something like Stinger + Disruptor/Unibeam which combos on hit and sets up a mixup on block, you truly can't say much. Then there's Vajra, and Stinger+Drones Reverb Shock > Fireworks which again combos on hit and sets up a mixup on block. Than you can add Weasel Shot and now you can't compare.

    In summary, Dante > Doom free, if you are not counting team support. Just pure point character tools.
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