2015 UMVC3 SRK Tier/Theory Discussion. 7/10 First Page Tumblr: Power of snapback, Future power teams

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  • JohnNumbersJohnNumbers Joined: Posts: 53
    Well CCs I believe have been universally good against Vergil just because they remove all the hurtboxes Vergil needs to cancel his moves on. Disregarding potential resource use as long as they have a reasonable way to convert off of it I'm sure any char would be good for the job of CCing against Vergil.

    VS any other character I'm not sure though since if your CC isn't invincible you run the risk of your opponent continuing to press buttons and potentially blowing up that meter you so delicately attempted to spend
  • charlie88charlie88 Ya'll niggas gay. The Keving Gates kinda gay. Joined: Posts: 5,120
    Best crossovers are going to be the ones you can cancel out of for a full combo. Happy Birthdays everytime you cc would be great for limiting some characters mixup strength
    FC:1864 9258 8415
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  • p0tat0 5aladp0tat0 5alad I like orange. Joined: Posts: 1,278
    edited June 2014
    Not all CC were created equal. I think only a select few characters gameplay should utilize otherwise you're wasting atleast 1 bar (and potentially another or XFC to make it safe) in attempts at fishing for a hit/HBD
    UMvC3 - Spencer/Task/Skrull
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  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    On the subject of alpha counters we should keep in mind that typical follow-up commands, i.e. Spider Sting second hit or Vergil teleport cancel, can't be used if recent knowledge proves correct, as well as moves that are normally cancelable like Shippuga. This doesn't include stuff like jump/flight (I think) cancels or shit that can already be combo'd off of.

    That said, I'd like to point out a couple of options that are almost unheard of or underutilized because there's a superior option as far as assists go:

    Haggar's Violent Ax- Yeah, Lariat exists. But you can't combo off a CC Lariat unless the opponent is high enough off the ground for you to sneak a crouching heavy in. Violent Ax, though? Yeah that'll combo. Can even open up for happy birthday opportunities, which is something Lariat cannot do. It's main issue has to do as an assist since it's... yeah, not very good. Hardly not the worst, but still not good.

    Joe's Groovy Uppercut- Joe is sorta iffy as far as assists go. Bomb might be his best one if you can manage to set it up properly and Voomerang is probably the most reliable all around. But Groovy Uppercut can allow combos off a CC if you manage and Joe, despite appearances, is fairly good with capitalizing on a happy birthday opportunity. Even as an assist it's not AWFUL, even though it's mostly restricted to extensions.

    Nemesis' Launcher Slam- Well, it's got armor for starters. That's a big reason people pick this assist to begin with. Another being it's a reliable combo extension for a lot of characters that don't have inherent ground bounces. That said, as a CC it's also pretty damn good since Nem can combo off it.

    Chris' Grenade/Combination Punch- Seriously, why the fuck aren't these seen more? I mean Gun Fire is good for an assist but holy shit these two still serve purposes that still warrant attention. Specifically for CC's, since both allow Chris to combo off a successful counter and Combo Punch is just so STUPID for that purpose.

    Viper's Thunder Knuckle- I'm not 100% certain but I think Viper can cancel her knuckle as a CC. Don't quote me on this because I use her about as often as people use Iron Fist nowadays.

    I would list Iron Fist's assists in this list as well but his issue hardly begins with underused CC assists.
  • MechWarriorMechWarrior Joined: Posts: 5,718
    edited June 2014
    You forgot Thor's Mighty Smash CC.

    It's REALLY good.
    Go to 9:20 for evidence of that claim I just made.
    XBL: MechWarriorNY
  • wnewne Fucking purple. Joined: Posts: 3,357
    so theory, we pullin out vanilla videos
    I'm wet.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,912
    bloodymess wrote: »
    On the subject of alpha counters we should keep in mind that typical follow-up commands, i.e. Spider Sting second hit or Vergil teleport cancel, can't be used if recent knowledge proves correct, as well as moves that are normally cancelable like Shippuga. This doesn't include stuff like jump/flight (I think) cancels or shit that can already be combo'd off of.

    That said, I'd like to point out a couple of options that are almost unheard of or underutilized because there's a superior option as far as assists go:

    Haggar's Violent Ax- Yeah, Lariat exists. But you can't combo off a CC Lariat unless the opponent is high enough off the ground for you to sneak a crouching heavy in. Violent Ax, though? Yeah that'll combo. Can even open up for happy birthday opportunities, which is something Lariat cannot do. It's main issue has to do as an assist since it's... yeah, not very good. Hardly not the worst, but still not good.

    Joe's Groovy Uppercut- Joe is sorta iffy as far as assists go. Bomb might be his best one if you can manage to set it up properly and Voomerang is probably the most reliable all around. But Groovy Uppercut can allow combos off a CC if you manage and Joe, despite appearances, is fairly good with capitalizing on a happy birthday opportunity. Even as an assist it's not AWFUL, even though it's mostly restricted to extensions.

    Nemesis' Launcher Slam- Well, it's got armor for starters. That's a big reason people pick this assist to begin with. Another being it's a reliable combo extension for a lot of characters that don't have inherent ground bounces. That said, as a CC it's also pretty damn good since Nem can combo off it.

    Chris' Grenade/Combination Punch- Seriously, why the fuck aren't these seen more? I mean Gun Fire is good for an assist but holy shit these two still serve purposes that still warrant attention. Specifically for CC's, since both allow Chris to combo off a successful counter and Combo Punch is just so STUPID for that purpose.

    Viper's Thunder Knuckle- I'm not 100% certain but I think Viper can cancel her knuckle as a CC. Don't quote me on this because I use her about as often as people use Iron Fist nowadays.

    I would list Iron Fist's assists in this list as well but his issue hardly begins with underused CC assists.

    No armor on Nemesis.
  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    You forgot Thor's Mighty Smash CC.

    It's REALLY good.
    Go to 9:20 for evidence of that claim I just made.

    I've been aware of this. Hell, I think serp made a point of it fairly recently. Hence why I didn't list it to begin with.
    wne wrote: »
    so theory, we pullin out vanilla videos

    It still works in Ultimate. Considering how many changes Thor received that video may as well apply to Ultimate, kek
  • p0tat0 5aladp0tat0 5alad I like orange. Joined: Posts: 1,278
    Spencer can't zip before he touches the ground in his CC
    Task can't air mighty swing before he touches the ground
    Skrull can't airdash before he touches the ground nor can he cancel orbital grudge into fatal buster for a confirm (not sure if his armor is activated though)
    #shouldapickedtoptier
    UMvC3 - Spencer/Task/Skrull
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  • discovigilantediscovigilante I'm associated with this guy! Joined: Posts: 3,037
    Can Task and Skrull not air super before they touch the ground? Sentinel can CC into Hard Drive so I figure those should work.

    Whatever, Doom's got all that on lockdown.


    He can cancel it into flight and shit too.
    discovigilante
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  • Merkyl999xMerkyl999x Crazy X-23 Guy Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited June 2014
    bloodymess wrote: »
    On the subject of alpha counters we should keep in mind that typical follow-up commands, i.e. Spider Sting second hit or Vergil teleport cancel, can't be used if recent knowledge proves correct, as well as moves that are normally cancelable like Shippuga. This doesn't include stuff like jump/flight (I think) cancels or shit that can already be combo'd off of.

    You just have to check on a character to character basis. X23 gets to cancel her DP into one of her dives and can cancel into a dive before touching the ground on her LowTG. Hidden missiles can cancel into shit it can't even cancel into normally because fuck doom. Jill can do the normal somersault cancelling, Viper can feint cancel.



    Here's the real badassery, though. I want people to find some more cool stuff off this.



    UMvC3: Magneto(EMD)/ X-23(CS)/Dante(JS)
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  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    Can Task and Skrull not air super before they touch the ground? Sentinel can CC into Hard Drive so I figure those should work.

    Whatever, Doom's got all that on lockdown.


    He can cancel it into flight and shit too.

    Anybody that has an air super can cancel into their air super before they hit the ground. The only real issue here being that it's only ever seen on Sentinel because Hard Drive is pretty damn good, even if that whole tactic costs two meters and for potentially little gain. Only other character capable of that sort of feat is Morrigan and you're blowing four fucking meters on a gambit that will still only affect one character.

    mid-post edit: No wait Nova can probably do it too with HST, which in theory would be better than Hard Drive since there's less hitstun to worry about at the cost of making yourself vulnerable to non-projectile supers. Joe/Hawkeye might be able to since their air supers have flash invulnerability and their projectiles can power through some shit. Same with Phoenix and her Inferno but lol 2 meters on Phoenix for a CC plus hyper

  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    Welp I bite my tongue, turns out you can combo off Spider Sting without using his ground bounce follow-up



    Skip to 2:00
  • serpentaurusserpentaurus just watching Joined: Posts: 4,525
    dr strange crossover assist counter into 7ROR. thats all.
    umvc3: Thor / Dr.Strange / Ammy - Thor / Dorm / Doom - Wesker / Dr.Strange / Vergil - ssf4: Vega
  • p0tat0 5aladp0tat0 5alad I like orange. Joined: Posts: 1,278
    Yeah they can airhyper off a CC but obviously they lack the benefits that Hard Drive has. If I was going to use two bars I'd rather Bionic Arm DHC into Arrow Hyper or whatever cause it's essentially at SRK FADC. Any situation where I can't Bionic Arm usually means I'm already blocking buttons/lockdown assist so it's pretty futile to bring CC into air hyper. Granted that is really only relevant to players with startup invincible hypers.

    Also I think all of the major assists make the tactic worthless for non invincible CCs/air hypers cause most are prolonged and multi hitting. Missiles, plasma, cold star, jam session, tatsu all would body most regular ass CCs
    UMvC3 - Spencer/Task/Skrull
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  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    dr strange crossover assist counter into 7ROR. thats all.

    Iron Rage/Rapid Fire Fist/Skrull Torch/Shinku Tatsumaki/Spirit of Vengeance/everything Wolverine has say hello
    lol iron fist
    Yeah they can airhyper off a CC but obviously they lack the benefits that Hard Drive has. If I was going to use two bars I'd rather Bionic Arm DHC into Arrow Hyper or whatever cause it's essentially at SRK FADC. Any situation where I can't Bionic Arm usually means I'm already blocking buttons/lockdown assist so it's pretty futile to bring CC into air hyper. Granted that is really only relevant to players with startup invincible hypers.

    Also I think all of the major assists make the tactic worthless for non invincible CCs/air hypers cause most are prolonged and multi hitting. Missiles, plasma, cold star, jam session, tatsu all would body most regular ass CCs

    The benefits of Hard Drive:
    + invincible
    + can combo afterwards
    + capable of happy boo boo

    The drawbacks of Hard Drive:
    - on whiff/block leaves a 900k fat bot extremely open
    - costs two meters for any sort of benefit versus one for several CC assists
    - comes with Sentinel

    Yes I think Sentinel is not a very good field character
  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    the best CCs are the ones you can mash against vergil
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  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    Rokmode wrote: »
    the best CCs are the ones you can mash against vergil

    What, you mean you're not running your point Galactus team against Vergil?
    bloodymess wrote: »
    On the subject of alpha counters we should keep in mind that typical follow-up commands, i.e. Spider Sting second hit or Vergil teleport cancel, can't be used if recent knowledge proves correct, as well as moves that are normally cancelable like Shippuga. This doesn't include stuff like jump/flight (I think) cancels or shit that can already be combo'd off of.

    That said, I'd like to point out a couple of options that are almost unheard of or underutilized because there's a superior option as far as assists go:

    Haggar's Violent Ax- Yeah, Lariat exists. But you can't combo off a CC Lariat unless the opponent is high enough off the ground for you to sneak a crouching heavy in. Violent Ax, though? Yeah that'll combo. Can even open up for happy birthday opportunities, which is something Lariat cannot do. It's main issue has to do as an assist since it's... yeah, not very good. Hardly not the worst, but still not good.

    Joe's Groovy Uppercut- Joe is sorta iffy as far as assists go. Bomb might be his best one if you can manage to set it up properly and Voomerang is probably the most reliable all around. But Groovy Uppercut can allow combos off a CC if you manage and Joe, despite appearances, is fairly good with capitalizing on a happy birthday opportunity. Even as an assist it's not AWFUL, even though it's mostly restricted to extensions.

    Nemesis' Launcher Slam- Well, it's got armor for starters. That's a big reason people pick this assist to begin with. Another being it's a reliable combo extension for a lot of characters that don't have inherent ground bounces. That said, as a CC it's also pretty damn good since Nem can combo off it.

    Chris' Grenade/Combination Punch- Seriously, why the fuck aren't these seen more? I mean Gun Fire is good for an assist but holy shit these two still serve purposes that still warrant attention. Specifically for CC's, since both allow Chris to combo off a successful counter and Combo Punch is just so STUPID for that purpose.

    Viper's Thunder Knuckle- I'm not 100% certain but I think Viper can cancel her knuckle as a CC. Don't quote me on this because I use her about as often as people use Iron Fist nowadays.

    I would list Iron Fist's assists in this list as well but his issue hardly begins with underused CC assists.

    No armor on Nemesis.

    Unless there was some sort of satanic hotfix meant to nerf an already weak character all of Nem's SRK moves have armor on them.
  • emcemc Air Throw Joined: Posts: 686
    edited June 2014
    Can Task and Skrull not air super before they touch the ground? Sentinel can CC into Hard Drive so I figure those should work.

    Whatever, Doom's got all that on lockdown.


    He can cancel it into flight and shit too.

    that video was 40 seconds too long, but for real, I had no idea and will be implementing this BS into my doom asap.

    on another note, I want to make a tier list for easy to play characters, to help new players (pointless in the grand scheme of things, but whatever). So I have a rough draft

    and I have it set up as:

    Y axis, top is difficult neutral, bottom is flow chart. Basically its how good your characters tools are, the better tools, the easier it is to play and execute a game plan.

    X axis, left is easy to learn, right is execution barrier. This axis is self explanatory, but is based on optimal combos, the optimal morrigan and viper stuff is really challenging but novas and wolverines? Not so much.

    so I put zero in the bottom right area, nova and wolverine in the bottom left area, Jill and viper in top right and iron fist, PW in top left, as examples.

    so I ask you guys, how would you tier all characters in this way? I'd love it if you guys made your own list to compare to, I don't exactly have knowledge of all characters and what it takes to be good with them.
  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    emc wrote: »
    chart

    I'd move X-23 more to the right if we're taking feint cancels into account, no way in hell does she take less execution than Thor.

    Would also move Firebrand to the left. I mean, how difficult are execution barriers for unblockables?
  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    edited June 2014
    tiering difficulty is weird
    like doom is really easy at a derpy level that most people play at


    but like full schedule style doom with lots of dash cancels and incredible movement is significantly more difficult
    also for say ammy, would you factor in tac infinites into execution?
    bloodymess wrote: »
    emc wrote: »
    chart

    I'd move X-23 more to the right if we're taking feint cancels into account, no way in hell does she take less execution than Thor.

    Would also move Firebrand to the left. I mean, how difficult are execution barriers for unblockables?

    it's probably more for WC fireballs
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  • Merkyl999xMerkyl999x Crazy X-23 Guy Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited June 2014
    X23 actually has a bit of an execution barrier. Her optimal corner bnb is three back to back link s.h, qcb h xx dp l xx qcf l. There's an input leniency that lets you do dp L > forward L and get the fastest possible cancels, but you still have to do the qcb into a clean dp ending on df to get that to work. The midscreen bnb I use has a j. Immediately cancelled into a dp L > forward L, link s.H. I play hitbox so it's easier for me, but I can't even hit it consistently on stick.

    Her mf cancel stuff takes a bit of getting used to, post dirt nap link s.L is decently tight, linking snap of of her otg isn't super tight but it is still a link, some of her assist calls require you to buffer the call inside the motion, in xf1 you can't relaunch so you'll often use a linked dp after her otg as a finisher.

    She's really dp motion heavy in neutral which is harder for new players and her late combo extensions require linked tk dps off her s.H.

    She's not as bad as viper, but she definitely isn't an easy character. To pay her at a high level requires really clean inputs.
    UMvC3: Magneto(EMD)/ X-23(CS)/Dante(JS)
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  • serpentaurusserpentaurus just watching Joined: Posts: 4,525
    edited June 2014
    bloodymess wrote: »
    dr strange crossover assist counter into 7ROR. thats all.

    Iron Rage/Rapid Fire Fist/Skrull Torch/Shinku Tatsumaki/Spirit of Vengeance/everything Wolverine has say hello
    lol iron fist

    are you seriously comparing a 100% safe, 100% invincible beam hyper with the greatest durability in the game that last enough to beat most hypers, and comes 100% invincible as a crossover counter when you are blocking multihit projectiles (projectile hypers, abusive projectile specials/assists) for two bars, with THAT CRAP?
    umvc3: Thor / Dr.Strange / Ammy - Thor / Dorm / Doom - Wesker / Dr.Strange / Vergil - ssf4: Vega
  • RagingDemonStormRagingDemonStorm The power of elevation Joined: Posts: 3,182
    bloodymess wrote: »

    Joe's Groovy Uppercut- Joe is sorta iffy as far as assists go. Bomb might be his best one if you can manage to set it up properly and Voomerang is probably the most reliable all around. But Groovy Uppercut can allow combos off a CC if you manage and Joe, despite appearances, is fairly good with capitalizing on a happy birthday opportunity. Even as an assist it's not AWFUL, even though it's mostly restricted to extensions.

    Joe cannot do anything until he hits the ground from a Groove Upper CC. Go back two spaces and don't pass go. You were better off saying Thor's Mighty Smash CC.

    As for his assist. Bomb is definitely his most unique assist but the point character has to be better than good. Someone like Magneto can use his many ways of movement and influence to manipulate the Bomb and the opponent. Voomerrang is way too normal to consider.
    CVS2 Akuma\Geese\whoevers top tier in that groove
  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,199
    People don't know about that Rising Sun CC. :coffee:
    I do believe tat I r teh King.
  • tabtab the impossible dream Joined: Posts: 1,993
    edited June 2014
    i know it's not invincible and you hit him out of it when he tries to do it as an alpha counter

    you know what is randomly invincible but not all the way to it's active frames? ghost rider's chain assist
    idk what the hell is up with that, it's really weird

    edit: oh yeah, idk why nobody has mentioned it but rolling buckler is actually fully invincible to it's recovery frame's of which there are very very few
    i also remembered that wesker's ghost butterfly also has the weird 'invincible but not all the way to active' thing
  • emcemc Air Throw Joined: Posts: 686
    edited June 2014
    Good insight on x23, exactly why I mentioned this. Since this is mostly for beginners, I put doom on the easy end because you get a lot of mileage on just his basic stuff, requires good dash techniques but is definitely easier to execute than any damaging Thor combo, imo of course.

    but yea every character has something that is somewhat difficult and this is for newbies so maybe overall difficulty is what I'm looking for rather than specifics
  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    bloodymess wrote: »
    dr strange crossover assist counter into 7ROR. thats all.

    Iron Rage/Rapid Fire Fist/Skrull Torch/Shinku Tatsumaki/Spirit of Vengeance/everything Wolverine has say hello
    lol iron fist

    are you seriously comparing a 100% safe, 100% invincible beam hyper with the greatest durability in the game that last enough to beat most hypers, and comes 100% invincible as a crossover counter when you are blocking multihit projectiles (projectile hypers, abusive projectile specials/assists) for two bars, with THAT CRAP?

    There is a flash involving the CC as well as the rings activation. Assuming strange is going for rings on landing, you can DHC on reaction. And yes I'm arguing said hypers work because they last long enough to take advantage of Strange's slow ass recovery from whiffed rings.
    bloodymess wrote: »

    Joe's Groovy Uppercut- Joe is sorta iffy as far as assists go. Bomb might be his best one if you can manage to set it up properly and Voomerang is probably the most reliable all around. But Groovy Uppercut can allow combos off a CC if you manage and Joe, despite appearances, is fairly good with capitalizing on a happy birthday opportunity. Even as an assist it's not AWFUL, even though it's mostly restricted to extensions.

    Joe cannot do anything until he hits the ground from a Groove Upper CC. Go back two spaces and don't pass go
    .

    I sincerely hope you're joking because Vergil can't even teleport cancel from a CC anti air and I know Joe can combo after medium groovy upper normally.

    tab wrote: »
    i know it's not invincible and you hit him out of it when he tries to do it as an alpha counter

    you know what is randomly invincible but not all the way to it's active frames? ghost rider's chain assist
    idk what the hell is up with that, it's really weird

    edit: oh yeah, idk why nobody has mentioned it but rolling buckler is actually fully invincible to it's recovery frame's of which there are very very few
    i also remembered that wesker's ghost butterfly also has the weird 'invincible but not all the way to active' thing

    Chain is a fucking brilliant assist/CC that is hampered purely by the character it comes with, although I'm utterly convinced after meeting with IGT at super over the last weekend that Rider is the future. Just not the future we need right now.

    Rolling Buckler is pretty great as well. Hell, all of Felicia's assists are good to an extent. It's one edge she has over her clawed companions like Wolverine or x23. She can even combo after the Buckler CC.
  • discovigilantediscovigilante I'm associated with this guy! Joined: Posts: 3,037
    edited June 2014
    Hmm bloodymess I actually hadn't thought about Nova's CC like that. Canceling it into Speed Tackle would really help against beam spammers and whatnot, even though it has no invincible startup. Nova Force might beat some shit too since it's 11 frames on startup and has a fat fat hitbox (obviously).

    This has been one of the better pages of this thread in a while haha.
    discovigilante
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    Nova β Strange ɣ Ammy β
    Ammy β Doom α Dante α

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  • tabtab the impossible dream Joined: Posts: 1,993
    you wanna know something really crazy
    do magneto's forcefield on point and trigger it

    now alpha counter him in and trigger it
    he says something totally different that i still can't understand

    also chain of rebuttal is a terrible cc did you not read that it's not invincible to activation, just randomly invincible to some point in it's startup
    as an assist it's okay but it scales hitstun real bad for whatever reason and has a questionable range

    also joe definitely can't act until he lands from the groovy uppercut cc. it's a different move with different properties, unsurprisingly.

    surprisingly: cc repulsor blast is invincible up until right before it's first active frame. crazy!
  • emcemc Air Throw Joined: Posts: 686
    edited June 2014
    So out of all the optimal assists that double as a good alpha counter, which would those be then? Jill's somersault, Zero's DP, Morrigan's DP, gold armor hsien-ko pendulum (or whatever the hell that move is called)?
  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 I'm dreaming of a green Christmas Joined: Posts: 4,276
    edited June 2014
    If the video that @discovigilante‌ put up is any indication, you gotta include Missiles in the list.
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  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    tab wrote: »
    t's not invincible to activation, just randomly invincible to some point in it's startup
    as an assist it's okay but it scales hitstun real bad for whatever reason and has a questionable range

    Strange, there have been times wherein he lands in and has enough time during a beam to land a Penance Stare/start his Spirit of Vengeance.
    also joe definitely can't act until he lands from the groovy uppercut cc. it's a different move with different properties, unsurprisingly.

    Okay so this is new and I've been operating under the assumption that Capcom wouldn't go and make senseless decisions when it came to how certain assists work but clearly I can't be able to trust them with knowing which side the bullet comes out of a gun.
    Hmm bloodymess I actually hadn't thought about Nova's CC like that. Canceling it into Speed Tackle would really help against beam spammers and whatnot, even though it has no invincible startup. Nova Force might beat some shit too since it's 11 frames on startup and has a fat fat hitbox (obviously).

    I thought it did have invincible start-up, at least against projectiles?
  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,810
    emc wrote: »
    So out of all the optimal assists that double as a good alpha counter, which would those be then? Jill's somersault, Zero's DP, Morrigan's DP, gold armor hsien-ko pendulum (or whatever the hell that move is called)?
    Morrigan Harmonizer if you can also cancel the incoming with flight.
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  • tabtab the impossible dream Joined: Posts: 1,993
    nova's speed tackle startup is not invin at all to anything and a big part of stopping him is just sniping him constantly so he can't get it out to go ham. it's also why you don't see nova doing it that much when swamped with morrigan fbs. it's got a lot of startup too so it's rough to imagine cc -> super as nova being useful in those kinds of scenarios

    in general the only ccs i believe in are invincible ones that you can use to escape constant, heavy hitbox pressure. so like vergil swords, sogenmued up shit, morrigan astraled up pressing buttons, jam session mixups, missile mixups, the works
    bloodymess wrote: »
    Okay so this is new and I've been operating under the assumption that Capcom wouldn't go and make senseless decisions when it came to how certain assists work but clearly I can't be able to trust them with knowing which side the bullet comes out of a gun.

  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    UnSaxon51 wrote: »
    If the video that @discovigilante‌ put up is any indication, you gotta include Missiles in the list.
    idk if that makes it as good as the invincible dp ccs that can be mashed during vergil blockstringers
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  • CorkyjayCorkyjay Joined: Posts: 288
    Jill CC generally work like this from best to worst
    1)Summersault its her best because she can use it to get out of bad situations and if they get caught full combo due to the long amount of invincibility lets not forget that she can also use the invincibility to come in and go into feral and punish things with full combos that would normally be safe such as doom Photon array midscreen since it pushes you back you can use the cc to move forward and get a full punish.
    2)Cartwheel Kick is meh it only has a few uses and few i mean that like it is used to punish things such as Dantes Million Dollars if u CC during the last shot you can use the Feral on the wiff of it to go through the last and punish. This really only help characters that dont have good ways to punish million dollars on block such as doom.Since you can feral after the hit that mean you can combo after the assist hits but you waste a ground. Also this assist has no invince...pretty much a bad version of sumersault kick
    3)Arrow Kick pretty much has the same options as cartwheel except u can only combo after it if you hit them in the corner.
    *Note all these Crossover counters can be canceled with Hypers and Feral Crouch.
  • discovigilantediscovigilante I'm associated with this guy! Joined: Posts: 3,037
    It's only as good as rocks is as a reversal IMO, and how much you're willing to spend on making it count. I agree with Rok that it not being able to fight swords makes it not as useful as Lariat or Ryuenjin or whatever.


    The other uses would be:

    Cancel to flight either for safety or foot dive
    Cancel to Photon Shot for safety anywhere but up close
    Upon CCing a projectile from slightly closer than midscreen, cancel to L Plasma Beam and XF if you wanna (have done this with CCing actual PB assist not 100% positive the missiles cancel would work)
    Mash more missiles, faster or staggered
    Cancel to Sphere Flame, maybe Level 3 (wonder if this works vs swords...)

    It's an interesting CC because of how many options you have but since none of them are invincible and most need XF to count towards anything...
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  • NonSexualRiceNonSexualRice Riding The VaporWave Joined: Posts: 3,585
    Jill's best assist is Arrow kick, bar none.

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  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,912
    bloodymess wrote: »


    Unless there was some sort of satanic hotfix meant to nerf an already weak character all of Nem's SRK moves have armor on them.

    None of Nemesis assists have armor and I'm pretty sure that goes for his CC's too.
    Different properties bloodymisinformed.

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