Character with the best rushdown? Best turtle? Best zoning?

blufang · January 19

I'd figure best zoning would be Dhalsim since he can control space at nearly every level.

Best turtle...Guile? Down back, sonic boom recovers super fast, standing uppercut or flash kick for jumpers. Once in a while throw a slow sonic and walk up for a backfist?

Best rushdown...Cammy, Seth, maybe Sakura? I don't know.

HNIC Mike · January 19

rush-cammy. turtle-fei. zoning-akuma

metallicaband · January 20

Cammy
Sim
Sim / Sagat

Thunder Road Man · January 20

guile
honda
cammy

farhannius · January 20

So according to metallicaband Cammy is the best rushdown but then for Thunder Road Man Guile is the best rushdown and Cammy is the best at zoning. Lol I think we need some sort of order here! Since the OP ordered it as 1. rushdown, 2. turtle and then 3. zoning, I'll order mine like that.
1. Cammy
2. Maybe Blanka
3. Akuma

littlescumbag · January 20

cammy
sim
sagat (without any doubt strongest zooner ingame)

Emanuelb · January 20

What's the difference between a zoner and a turtle ? why Sim would be a zoner while Guile a turtle ?
Anyway:

1. Rushdown: Cammy, hands down. Shehas the scariest rushdown by far.
2. Zoner: Dhalsim: the fact that he beats Sagat and guile at their own game shows that he is THE ultimate zoner
3. Turtle: I have a hard time here. I would say Honda, but watching Mike ross playing and calling Honda a turtle...Balrog also comes in mind. Maybe Vega ?

HNIC Mike, post: 7916254, member: 10968 wrote:

turtle-fei. zoning-akuma

Whaat ? Fei a turtle ? Akuma best zoner ?

K1MOCH1 · January 20

turtle: chun

Nevermore · January 20

Sagat is the best at zoning, not Dhalsim. Dhalsim is probably the second or third best at zoning, but he also has decent runaway.

I also can't believe Akuma was mentioned as the "best" zoner. He can zone pretty well, but even Gouken is better at zoning than he is.

Either Blanka or Boxer would be contenders for the best turtles, along with lame Hondas. Chun can lame turtle too I guess, but she doesn't really do it as well as the others.

The best rushdown is no contest, and only one answer.

littlescumbag · January 20

reading the comments here i realize that 80% have no idea what zoonig means

Eternal · January 20

Online T Hawk
Online Blanka
Online T Hawk

Emanuelb · January 20

Nevermore, post: 7918116, member: 8934 wrote:

Sagat is the best at zoning, not Dhalsim. Dhalsim is probably the second or third best at zoning, but he also has decent runaway.

If Sagat is the best zoner, then how comes he lose to Dhalsim ? It's not like sim beats him by rushing him down or vortexing.

littlescumbag · January 20

Emanuelb, post: 7918202, member: 50800 wrote:

If Sagat is the best zoner, then how comes he lose to Dhalsim ? It's not like sim beats him by rushing him down or vortexing.

and in which universe sagat looses to dalshims zooning? could you pls explain me what you mean, how he looses ?

do you know what a fireball war means att all and how you determine if a character won the fireball war or lost it?

Norieaga · January 20

Rush - Cammy > Seth, Akuma, Viper, Fei-Long, Yang, Yun
Turtle - Dhalsim > Guile, Honda, Balrog
Zoning - Sagat > Guile, Dhalsim, Akuma, Ryu

The characters after the ">" are in no order.

Emanuelb · January 20

littlescumbag, post: 7918210, member: 64152 wrote:

and in which universe sagat looses to dalshims zooning? could you pls explain me what you mean, how he looses ?

do you know what a fireball war means att all and how you determine if a character won the fireball war or lost it?

Sagat loses to Dhalsim since...SF2. He always lost to sim, and still loses.

littlescumbag · January 20

Emanuelb, post: 7918233, member: 50800 wrote:

Sagat loses to Dhalsim since...SF2. He always lost to sim, and still loses.

how old are you?
How much PP you have?

C3TN · January 20

Cammy has the best rushdown no doubt. It's hard to say who has the best zoning though, everyone seems to say Sagat but he has many matchups where his zoning is not effective at all. And what is wrong with saying that Akuma got great zoning?

Emanuelb · January 20

littlescumbag, post: 7918256, member: 64152 wrote:

how old are you?
How much PP you have?

And how important is how much PP I have ? this is the way you determine how good is someone ? :razzy:

And I'm probabelly older than you.

C3TN · January 20

littlescumbag, post: 7918256, member: 64152 wrote:

how old are you?
How much PP you have?

PP LOL

littlescumbag · January 20

Emanuelb, post: 7918266, member: 50800 wrote:

And how important is how much PP I have ? this is the way you determine how good is someone ?
And I'm probabelly older than you.

its important how much PP you have... its not a precise tool to determine how good someone is but fact is that ppl with higher PPs tend to know what they 're talking about
you clearly have no idea what you talking about
and i wouldnt say you are older than me since Yagami Light is your avatar

Emanuelb · January 20

littlescumbag, post: 7918281, member: 64152 wrote:

its important how much PP you have... its not a precise tool to determine how good someone is but fact is that ppl with higher PPs tend know what they 're talking about
you clearly have no idea what you talking about
and i wouldnt say you are older than me since you have Yagami as an avatar

If you are judging people by how much pp they have, then I'm afraid you are the one who doesn't have a clue. Online doesn't mean much, son, the fact that you have 5000 pps doesn't say anything.

I don't even know who Yagami is. My avatar has nothing to do with any yagami.

Btw, instead of being a smartass, why don't you prove me wrong ? Or you just like to keep true to your nickname ?

littlescumbag · January 20

Emanuelb, post: 7918292, member: 50800 wrote:

If you are judging people by how much pp they have, then I'm afraid you are the one who doesn't have a clue. Online doesn't mean much, son, the fact that you have 5000 pps doesn't say anything.

I don't even know who Yagami is. My avatar has nothing to do with any yagami.

Btw, instead of being a smartass, why don't you prove me wrong ? Or you just like to keep true to your nickname ?

ok meet me ingame ... i'll play sagat you play dalshim
and lets just throw fireballs at each other
its the best way to determine whos the better zooner

IgTerminals · January 20

littlescumbag, post: 7918295, member: 64152 wrote:

ok meet me ingame ... i'll play sagat you play dalshim
and lets just throw fireballs at each other
its the best way to determine whos the better zooner

That's...
What...?

C3TN · January 20

littlescumbag, post: 7918295, member: 64152 wrote:

ok meet me ingame ... i'll play sagat you play dalshim
and lets just throw fireballs at each other
its the best way to determine whos the better zooner

You just can't be serious.

Oathkeeper89 · January 20

Lol online fights. Ever seem that HERP vs. DERP gif??

Rushdown: Cammy, Seth, Dan, any online grappler
Turtle: Guile, Sagat, Dhalsim, Rose, grapplers with life lead
Zoning: Guile, Rose, Akuma, Adon

farhannius · January 20

Tbh littlescumbag seems to live up his name. The way you word your sentences is so argumentative and it's like you're seeking conflict. It's fine to have opinions but don't talk to people like they're a piece of shit: 1. "reading the comments here i realize that 80% have no idea what zoonig means" 2. "and in which universe sagat looses to dalshims zooning? could you pls explain me what you mean, how he looses ? do you know what a fireball war means att all and how you determine if a character won the fireball war or lost it?"

Emanuelb · January 20

littlescumbag, post: 7918295, member: 64152 wrote:

ok meet me ingame ... i'll play sagat you play dalshim
and lets just throw fireballs at each other
its the best way to determine whos the better zooner

Well, for starters, I don't play Dhalsim - and seeing your sig, you don't play Sagat either, so I don't think it would be too relevant. Second, one of us might just be a better player, so again, irelevant.

Putting this apart:
What is zoning - simply put it, it means the abilitty to keep your opponent in a certain range, where you have the most advantages.
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-srk-glossary-wip.91061/ - srk definition: "Finding the perfect distance to limit your opponent's options. Ryu wants to find the distance from which if his opponent jumps over a Hadouken, he can easily Shoryuken them out of the air."
Zoning does NOT mean throwing fireballs only, so zoning does not equal fireball wars.
If that would be the case, Chun Li wouldn't be called a good zoner, since her FB is pretty weak - but her amazing normals makes her a great zoner. On the other hand, Dee Jay has a fireball, but he is not a good zoner at all, because he lacks the normals to do this.

Sagat vs Dhalsim:
sim always beat Sagat. In SF2: http://curryallergy.blogspot.ro/2009/08/super-diagram-turbo-version-3.html
You can see what top players think of this match: the majority called it 7-3 Sim.
In SF4: in super : http://www.freeuploadsite.com/uploads/13567698571.png - F Champ made it and he called the match 6-4 Sim's favour.
In AE: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/uploads/13567697661.png - a japanese chart - the match is 6-4 sim
Finally you can click for a tier list in my Sig.
Tournament results: http://www.ssfranking.com/matchup - Dhalsim dominates quite clearly

Why ? Well, I don't main either characters, so maybe others could explain it better, but Dhalsim usually wins because he is able to keep Sagat in a certain range where he has the most advantages.
Yes, Sagat has a better fireball, but like I said, zoning does not mean just throwing fbs. Dhalsim also has the limbs that can keep the opponent where he wants, a.k.a. zone him.

And in my humble oppinion, if Dhalsim can beat Sagat at his own game, than he is a better zoner overall.
Btw, if you would only take into consideration the fireball, than Sim would be one of the worst zoners in the entire game, since his projectile is not great at all by itself.

Finally, a piece of advice - next time don't be so eager to call names.

Norieaga · January 20

A few things...

1. LittleScumbag - Dhalsim has always beaten Sagat. Its not because his fireball is better, which it isn't, but because he can control space with his limbs. Sagat can win the fireball war but Dhalsim has other tools that help him win overall (limbs, yoga tower, etc...).

2. I would disagree that Dhalsim beating Sagat makes him a better zoner. I'd say its more viable to look at how each character zones the whole cast overall. Does Dhalsim zone a majority of the cast better than Sagat? Then yes, he's a better zoner. Akuma can out-zone Guile but that doesn't mean he's a better zoner. Think of which characters he can't out-zone and then ask yourself if Guile can.

Akuma's fireball game is based around building meter and some stalling, while Guile's is based on raw keep-away.

3. PP means jackshit. And I don't understand what age has to do with it? I'm going to assume Scumbag is really young.

Ryuken9 · January 20

Age doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to video games. And PP lol, unless it's a 2K PP difference it don't matter at all. Btw this our friend littlescumbag playing here :

You talk like ur pro or some shit?

C3TN · January 20

He got 3000PP on GFWL, that means that he is high level player. :tup:

ragerunner05 · January 20

Dhalsim has the best zoning game, period, and Guile is probably a close second. Sagat is just overall the best zoning based character because he also has a dp, great comeback potential, great damage, much better health etc.

Sim also beats Sagat, probably 6-4. Sagat is pretty much forced to stay at the end of the screen and chuck tigers, and Sim doesn't have a hard time dealing with them. Any closer and Sagat gets raped by normals, and its pretty impossible to get in on Sim because Sagat is slow as hell.

Nevermore · January 20

Emanuelb, post: 7918233, member: 50800 wrote:

Sagat loses to Dhalsim since...SF2. He always lost to sim, and still loses.

That's pretty bad logic behind Dhalsim being "the best" at zoning since there's more than a single matchup.

HNIC Mike · January 20

Emanuelb, post: 7918097, member: 50800 wrote:

Whaat ? Fei a turtle ? Akuma best zoner ?

yeah. watch good fei's.

they dont really do anything. walk forward. down back. wait.

its almost purely reactive and counteractive gameplay until they establish a corner. just because they are sitting a quarter screen away instead of on the other side of the screen doesnt mean its not turtling

akuma to me is the best character who also does some good zoning. as opposed to someone like sim who purely zones, but isnt a very good character

EDIT-some of these explanations. doing it wrong

Komatik · January 20

I'd say that Akuma is a bloody good zoner, if zoning is defined as the ability to force a certain, advantageous spacing. The thing is, though, that characters like Guile, Sim, Sagat and Ryu all accompish it by playing keepaway, forcing their opponent out. Akuma's tremendous mobility lends itself to playing a more runaway kind of style where you stall the opponent a bit while resetting yourself. Infiltration's favourite low jump-back fireballs being a brilliant case in point here.

As for rankings:
Rushdown: Cammy
Keepaway-oriented zoning: Sagat (or perhaps Sim if played by an absolute master)
Turtling: Fei Long
Nigete! : Akuma

Thunder Road Man · January 20

Oathkeeper89, post: 7918329, member: 42344 wrote:

Lol online fights. Ever seem that HERP vs. DERP gif??

Rushdown: Cammy, Seth, Dan, any online grappler
Turtle: Guile, Sagat, Dhalsim, Rose, grapplers with life lead
Zoning: Guile, Rose, Akuma, Adon

are you a fan of the song of ice and fire books?

Ouroborus · January 20

littlescumbag, post: 7918256, member: 64152 wrote:

how old are you?
How much PP you have?

get this online crap out of here.

Emanuelb · January 21

Nevermore, post: 7918877, member: 8934 wrote:

That's pretty bad logic behind Dhalsim being "the best" at zoning since there's more than a single matchup.

My logic is the following: Sagat and Guile are some of the best zoners in the game. Dhalsim beats both of them at their own game - outzoning them. Therefore, Sim is a beter zoner than both Guile and Sagat.
I say it's a pretty good logic.
I think Dhalsim is overall the best zoner in the game, but problem is - he is also a hardcore zoner, very unidimensional, in a game that does not reward zoning that much. That's why Sim is worse overall than Guile and Sagat, because these 2 are a "little" less unidimensional in their games (Sagat having a great comeback factor helps him a lot, but that has nothing to do with him being a good zoner).

HNIC Mike, post: 7919127, member: 10968 wrote:

yeah. watch good fei's.

they dont really do anything. walk forward. down back. wait.

its almost purely reactive and counteractive gameplay until they establish a corner. just because they are sitting a quarter screen away instead of on the other side of the screen doesnt mean its not turtling

akuma to me is the best character who also does some good zoning. as opposed to someone like sim who purely zones, but isnt a very good character

EDIT-some of these explanations. doing it wrong

Maybe we have different understanding by what "turtle" means - I understand a character that gets a life lead and than wait for the adversary to come to him.
Fei Long is nothing like this - he wants to press the opponent in the corner, he is an offensive character.

Well, the question was who's the best zoner, not who's the best character. I think Dhalsim has a better zoning game overall than Akuma. Actually I have a hard time to call Akuma a proper zoner - there are few matches where his objective is to zone his adversary.

littlescumbag · January 21

Emanuelb, post: 7921718, member: 50800 wrote:

My logic is the following: Sagat and Guile are some of the best zoners in the game. Dhalsim beats both of them at their own game - outzoning them. Therefore, Sim is a beter zoner than both Guile and Sagat.

i think your mind will get blown right now! what if i say ryu wins the fireball war against guile ?

pls explain me (no sarcasm or anything) what do you understand under the term "better zooner" ?

i think we may speak of different things here me and you ... i am talking about firebal wars and you are talking about zooners in generall , there may lay the problem

littlescumbag · January 21

Ryuken9, post: 7918615, member: 15085 wrote:

Age doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to video games. And PP lol, unless it's a 2K PP difference it don't matter at all. Btw this our friend littlescumbag playing here :

You talk like ur pro or some shit?

feel free to challenge him and tell me how you did ... extremly strong and arguably the strongest bison on pc live atm , and i didnt want to counterpick with cammy like a bitch i just stuck with ryu till the end although ryu has a hard time against bison... so, go boy challenge him and prove your skill to us before you talk about others little bitch ..
btw i play sagat on the side too (verry bad though) so my points got scaled from 4k to 3k

Thunder Road Man · January 21

littlescumbag, post: 7921870, member: 64152 wrote:

feel free to challenge him and tell me how you did ... extremly strong and arguably the strongest bison on pc live atm , and i didnt want to counterpick with cammy like a bitch i just stuck with ryu till the end although ryu has a hard time against bison... so, go boy challenge him and prove your skill to us before you talk about others little bitch ..
btw i play sagat on the side too (verry bad though) so my points got scaled from 4k to 3k

lol

tenshoxxx · January 21

Ryu doesn´t have a hard time vs bison, except you call 5/5 a hard time.

littlescumbag · January 21

tenshoxxx, post: 7921909, member: 25536 wrote:

Ryu doesn´t have a hard time vs bison, except you call 5/5 a hard time.

untill bison gets his U2 and than the matchup transforms into a 6-4 or 5.5.-4.5
same as chun lis matchup

C3TN · January 21

littlescumbag, post: 7921930, member: 64152 wrote:

untill bison gets his U2 and than the matchup transforms into a 6-4 or 5.5.-4.5
same as chun lis matchup

Lol. When you get super meter then it's 9-1? Sounds silly... Ryu M.Bison is 5-5. :rofl:

IgTerminals · January 21

Too... many... Scrubquotes... to choose from...

Ouroborus · January 21

opinions of online ~~warriors~~ scrubs doesnt count

Komatik · January 21

Emanuelb, post: 7921718, member: 50800 wrote:

My logic is the following: Sagat and Guile are some of the best zoners in the game. Dhalsim beats both of them at their own game - outzoning them. Therefore, Sim is a beter zoner than both Guile and Sagat.
I say it's a pretty good logic.

That is pretty bad logic. You're just talking about a couple matchups out of 40 per character. For example, Akuma can easily play a keepaway game against most conventional fireball zoners, and occasionally brutally murder them at their own game. Akuma's suddenly the best keepaway character, when his zoning style is nothing like that in most matchups? Ability against the cast as a whole is far more important than one or two matchups.

Emanuelb, post: 7921718, member: 50800 wrote:

Maybe we have different understanding by what "turtle" means - I understand a character that gets a life lead and than wait for the adversary to come to him.
Fei Long is nothing like this - he wants to press the opponent in the corner, he is an offensive character.

Fei can absolutely turtle with the best of them. Doesn't mean he can't go nuts with Rekkas, but the ability to go nuts with Rekkas does not in any way preclude the ability to play Downback Fighter.

Eternal · January 21

Fei is a sort of rope a dope type character push the opponent into a bad situation or the corner and just park yourself and let the opponent hang themselves. In many ways it is an archetype I think could help define a lot of characters people have trouble defining. Cody, Balrog, Bison, Vega are all kind of like that. Lots of sitting and blocking at the ideal range to throw out the occasional c.LP / LK / Rekka poke to try and catch the opponent doing something. None of them really go for the mixups that characters like Makoto/Sakura/Akuma have or the constant pressure / frame traps of Cammy / Yun (Cody comes close but the best Cody's, Momochi and Sasaki, often don't constant pressure and instead back off a bit and wait at times while you almost never see that from Cammy)

That's my opinion though.

Emanuelb · January 21

Komatik, post: 7921999, member: 63434 wrote:

That is pretty bad logic. You're just talking about a couple matchups out of 40 per character. For example, Akuma can easily play a keepaway game against most conventional fireball zoners, and occasionally brutally murder them at their own game. Akuma's suddenly the best keepaway character, when his zoning style is nothing like that in most matchups? Ability against the cast as a whole is far more important than one or two matchups.

Fei can absolutely turtle with the best of them. Doesn't mean he can't go nuts with Rekkas, but the ability to go nuts with Rekkas does not in any way preclude the ability to play Downback Fighter.

in my personal oppinion, if you consider "Ability against the cast as a whole", I think Sim has the best tools to keep people away. The fact that he beats both Sagat and Guile at their own game is a solid proof. He is an extreme zoner, his entire gameplan is to keep you away. He keeps you away, he wins, you get in, he loses.

Fei Long: he is an offensive character, and his purpose is to put you into the corner and rape you there. Nobody plays Fei as a turtle - except in certain specifics match ups (Honda). So calling him a turtle is silly.
Did you guys watched Socal this weekend ? 2 good Feis were there, and I haven't seen any of them turtling at all. Actually I don't think I've ever seen a turtle Fei.
Mike Ross sometimes plays a rushdown Honda, but that doesn't make Honda a rushdown character.

gigabyte · January 21

littlescumbag, post: 7921870, member: 64152 wrote:

feel free to challenge him and tell me how you did ... extremly strong and arguably the strongest bison on pc live atm , and i didnt want to counterpick with cammy like a bitch i just stuck with ryu till the end although ryu has a hard time against bison... so, go boy challenge him and prove your skill to us before you talk about others little bitch ..
btw i play sagat on the side too (verry bad though) so my points got scaled from 4k to 3k

lmao

Nevermore · January 21

Emanuelb, post: 7922461, member: 50800 wrote:

in my personal oppinion, if you consider "Ability against the cast as a whole", I think Sim has the best tools to keep people away. The fact that he beats both Sagat and Guile at their own game is a solid proof. He is an extreme zoner, his entire gameplan is to keep you away. He keeps you away, he wins, you get in, he loses.

No it isn't, and you keep conveniently forgetting about Gouken. He can zone as well as any of them and also has tools to get around their own zoning. The argument for Dhalsim is strong, but it falls apart simply because of how his limbs can work against him more than the zoning tools of other characters.

Honestly though it seems like people are arguing about two different things. Character with the best zoning, and best overall character that is a zoner.

Oathkeeper89 · January 21

Thunder Road Man, post: 7919349, member: 62720 wrote:

are you a fan of the song of ice and fire books?

Yes, though that is not where my name derives from. Second time I've been asked this obscure reference.

Character with the best rushdown? Best turtle? Best zoning?

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