If RayRay took Ryu off of his team do you think he could beat Chris G?

Steelguttey · January 25

No offense to him, of course. He is an amazing player and all but everyone (me included) is saying that Ryu is just holding him down from winning Big Two. Or should he just make a counterpick team to Chris' team?

Loneexodus · January 25

Just to give you a heads up, you probably could have started this discussion in the umvc3 general discussion thread, or maybe even the stream and commentary or the tier theory discussion thread (don't remember exact name).

Steelguttey · January 25

Loneexodus, post: 7937674, member: 15054 wrote:

Just to give you a heads up, you probably could have started this discussion in the umvc3 general discussion thread, or maybe even the stream and commentary or the tier theory discussion thread (don't remember exact name).

Yeah, sorry. But I thought making a new thread would grab the attention of people who aren't actively on that thread.

Din0 · January 25

Nope. There is no true counter pick to Chris G's team now that he's running Morrigan/Vergil/Doctor Doom. Vergil/Strider beats Morrigan but Missiles counters Vajra. It's truly not just because Chris' team is cheap as shit, it's because Chris is just an amazing player. He generally plays other characters against Chris anyways; right now its Magneto/Doom/Sentinel which is good for sniping Missile assist but then Magneto dies and Doom/Sentinel gets shit on my Morri Doom.

DevilJin 01 · January 25

Din0, post: 7937732, member: 45858 wrote:

Nope. There is no true counter pick to Chris G's team now that he's running Morrigan/Vergil/Doctor Doom. Vergil/Strider beats Morrigan but Missiles counters Vajra. It's truly not just because Chris' team is cheap as shit, it's because Chris is just an amazing player. He generally plays other characters against Chris anyways; right now its Magneto/Doom/Sentinel which is good for sniping Missile assist but then Magneto dies and Doom/Sentinel gets shit on my Morri Doom.

So was there no true counter pick to his team when he was using Morri/Doom/Akuma also?

Cheech Wizard · January 25

Sentinel assist/anchor is more the problem than point Ryu (although point ryu is pretty mediocre). You literally cannot get sentinel assist out when fighting morridoom. He just becomes soul fist/soul drain bait which gives morrigan ridiculous amount of meter.

DevilJin 01 · January 25

Cheech Wizard, post: 7937903, member: 15825 wrote:

Sentinel assist/anchor is more the problem than point Ryu (although point ryu is pretty mediocre). You literally cannot get sentinel assist out when fighting morridoom. He just becomes soul fist/soul drain bait which gives morrigan ridiculous amount of meter.

Yeah I never understood drones assist vs. flood teams. It's literally almost an invalidated assist now against flood teams. Sentinel's huge hurt box deactivating the assist on any touch is pretty much GGPO during soul fists. Even before AV. Bolts if the new screen control assist that can actually fight flood with the correct points attached.

Cee Dizzy · January 25

This didn't need a new thread, but for the sake of answering this, RayRay tweeted, or it might of been on Facebook, that he can punish damn near everything with Ryu/Disruptor. Even when he switched to better characters, he couldn't punish as much as he could with low-mid tier Ryu and disruptor. Dude put so much time into him, he knows anything and everything about this team.

If he were to switch characters, it might end up hurting his chances to beat Chris G.

DevilJin 01 · January 25

Cee Dizzy, post: 7937927, member: 17516 wrote:

This didn't need a new thread, but for the sake of answering this, RayRay tweeted, or it might of been on Facebook, that he can punish damn near everything with Ryu/Disruptor. Even when he switched to better characters, he couldn't punish as much as he could with low-mid tier Ryu and disruptor. Dude put so much time into him, he knows anything and everything about this team.

If he were to switch characters, it might end up hurting his chances to beat Chris G.

Unfortunately that's kind of a sad state to be in where the game is headed any way. Even PR Rog changed up from Wolverine + 2 other good guys that will get blown up by the flood, to Wolverine + scary support/anchor that can at least HAM through it all.

If he doesn't get rid of Ryu he needs at least something cheaper than Sent in the back or make Mag the anchor and put Vergil or Strange second. Something that has a better shot of clearing shit up.

Cee Dizzy · January 25

DevilJin 01, post: 7937937, member: 1242 wrote:

Unfortunately that's kind of a sad state to be in where the game is headed any way. Even PR Rog changed up from Wolverine + 2 other good guys that will get blown up by the flood, to Wolverine + scary support/anchor that can at least HAM through it all.

If he doesn't get rid of Ryu he needs at least something cheaper than Sent in the back or make Mag the anchor and put Vergil or Strange second. Something that has a better shot of clearing shit up.

Agreed. Its gonna be a game of shells and a point character.

*insert character*/Doom/Vergil
*insert character*/Doom/Strider
*insert character*/Doom/Phoenix
*insert character*/Magneto/Vergil
*insert character*/Vergil/Strider

I see it happening in the future. I played Marvel 2 alot so its cool with me lol.

DevilJin 01 · January 25

Cee Dizzy, post: 7937981, member: 17516 wrote:

Agreed. Its gonna be a game of shells and a point character.

*insert character*/Doom/Vergil
*insert character*/Doom/Strider
*insert character*/Doom/Phoenix
*insert character*/Magneto/Vergil
*insert character*/Vergil/Strider

I see it happening in the future. I played Marvel 2 alot so its cool with me lol.

Yeah Doom/Vergil was my first cheapo shell and it's good to see that it's one of the ones that's starting to take off in tourneys. Vergil anchor has been the shit in Japan for a while any ways just because of the XF3 durp and the support it provides through meter. You can always just try to escape incoming mix up and DHC in Vergil if the matchup is really bad for Doom.

It's not as support heavy assist wise as I like...but DHC/THC blow up is really important now with the flood where it's not bad to just spend the meter if you have it. Having a strong assist for the 3rd is important but going HAM with meters and stopping the opponent from calling an assist will probably start to get stronger.

Doom/Ammy is the best version of that which still gives you a strong neutral assist and solid anchor.

SB Maximus · January 25

I'm waiting for someone to come in from left field and blow Chris out of the water with a low tier team that counters the shit out of Morridoom... Something crazy, like Jill/ Ammy with the counter assist/ Strange, but that's more than likely not gonna happen.

DevilJin 01 · January 25

SB Maximus, post: 7938044, member: 78424 wrote:

I'm waiting for someone to come in from left field and blow Chris out of the water with a low tier team that counters the shit out of Morridoom... Something crazy, like Jill/ Ammy with the counter assist/ Strange, but that's more than likely not gonna happen.

You're looking for another Kusoru basically?

Carlly · January 25

Cee Dizzy, post: 7937981, member: 17516 wrote:

Agreed. Its gonna be a game of shells and a point character.

*insert character*/Doom/Vergil
*insert character*/Doom/Strider
*insert character*/Doom/Phoenix
*insert character*/Magneto/Vergil
*insert character*/Vergil/Strider

I see it happening in the future. I played Marvel 2 alot so its cool with me lol.

No dormammu?

SB Maximus · January 25

Yeah man, that hype stuff. Kusoru is a great example, but I'd like to see a more viable team that isn't considered a joke. Kusoru mainly abused the fact that pros didn't look into any of the "lower tier" characters capabilities, and blew everyone up at Final Round with Viewtiful Joe, and RR assist. I don't really mind that people play the best characters, it's only natural in the FGC. What I love to see is people taking under-utilized characters and discovering something game changing. Pretty much how Morridoom was discovered, which is kind of what I'm talking about. At first no one played Morrigan, then Sou-soul fist+Astral vision was discovered. I see a lot of potential in the said "low tier" characters, but they are over looked because they are 1. Not as easy to play as the top tier, and 2. People would rather do what works, then try to figure things out for themselves. At least in the tournament scene. Though, I could be wrong, as I have no idea what it is like outside of youtube.

The Ultimator · January 25

Steelguttey, post: 7937630, member: 57445 wrote:

No offense to him, of course. He is an amazing player and all but everyone (me included) is saying that Ryu is just holding him down from winning Big Two. Or should he just make a counterpick team to Chris' team?

he will never beat chrisg because magneto is too fair

KJunk · January 25

RayRay is a badass with his characters, but I would like to see him replace Ryu with Dante or Taskmaster.

They have some similar stuff going on as Ryu, but I feel they're a bit stronger and could help with his ChrisG problem. So maybe:

Task/Mags/Sentinel
Mags/Dante/Sentinel or even Mags/Sentinel/Dante could work

Another option would be to consider Akuma.

The Ultimator · January 25

I'd rather see him play Akuma since Akuma is a better Ryu. Then again I'm not sure I want him to switch his teams, because I like watching his Ryu.

YawDan · January 26

I really don't know the answer to this. I'm not even sure if you can counter pick Chris G's team, as he doesn't just rely on the bullethell as a gimick, but he can actually use his characters. So there's nothing to say Chris G can't adapt to whatever character changes people may make.

I was happy for PR Rog to pick up the win against Chris G. Not because I wanted Chris G to lose, but PR Rog had been doing well since he decided to stop going through characters and stick with a team, Wolverine/Doom/Vergil, post Evo, as Devil Jin said (3rd at season's beatings, won Canada Cup, 2nd at Youmacon Battle Opera, won Hadocon IV). He'd pretty much been under most people's radar, or underestimated by them.

A bit of a digression, but PR Rog's (latest) major win was a long time coming, and perhaps, his team, or play style is the true counter pick to Chris G's team. Whether RayRay incorporating Wolverine and maybe Vergil could help him. But Chris G's always got wins back against those who have beaten him in previous tournaments, from Justin Wong (CEO-EVO), Combofiend (ECT-EVO), F Champ (EVO- SBA). He said he'll learn infinites too so I can only see Chris G improving.

Din0 · January 26

DevilJin 01, post: 7937792, member: 1242 wrote:

So was there no true counter pick to his team when he was using Morri/Doom/Akuma also?

I don't particularly think MorriDoom has a true counter, the switch to Vergil just made him less counterable and gave him a stronger character + Vergil beats Dormammu.

Rokmode · January 26

He should play some thor/ghostrider/mystic ray ray (pun intended)
no morrigans will want to fuck with him and chris g will be begging ray ray to split the pot in order to keep his rent payments up to date

Cheech Wizard · January 26

Mystic ray is the worst counter to Morrigan ive ever heard of. Morrigan with mystic ray herself sounds pretty cool though.

Jazz · January 26

its not ryu costing him...u can watch and see its not ryu...

its sent...

DevilJin 01 · January 26

YawDan, post: 7938326, member: 65019 wrote:

I really don't know the answer to this. I'm not even sure if you can counter pick Chris G's team, as he doesn't just rely on the bullethell as a gimick, but he can actually use his characters. So there's nothing to say Chris G can't adapt to whatever character changes people may make.

I was happy for PR Rog to pick up the win against Chris G. Not because I wanted Chris G to lose, but PR Rog had been doing well since he decided to stop going through characters and stick with a team, Wolverine, Doom, Vergil post Evo, as Devil Jin said (3rd at season's beatings, won Canada Cup, 2nd at Youmacon Battle Opera, won Hadocon IV). He'd pretty much been under most people's radar, or underestimated by them.

A bit of a digression, but PR Rog's (latest) major win was a long time coming, and perhaps, his team, or play style is the true counter pick to Chris G's team. Whether RayRay incorporating Wolverine and maybe Vergil could help him. But Chris G's always got wins back against those who have beaten him in previous tournaments, from Justin Wong (CEO-EVO), Combofiend (ECT-EVO), F Champ (EVO- SBA). He said he'll learn infinites too so I can only see Chris G improving.

Yeah at this point it should probably be less about counter picking and more about finding something that can fight it (still not favorable but not terrible and has options) or go near even. The thing with Morri Doom is it takes time to get started so if we can find something that gets started faster or is more oppressive when it gets started around a similar or faster time frame...then we should be in there. Wolverine has proven that if you can enact your gameplan more quickly than Morrigan can, you can win. It should only be a matter of time before that is put together with more characters/teams.

Cheech Wizard, post: 7938408, member: 15825 wrote:

Mystic ray is the worst counter to Morrigan ive ever heard of. Morrigan with mystic ray herself sounds pretty cool though.

There's no specific assist that counters any point character any way. An assist can't counter someone on its own. Morri Doom wouldn't be able to be possible if assists alone countered characters/teams.

Even an assist countering an assist is tricky because it's very dependent on how the point characters interact with it.

The Ultimator · January 26

psh rok your a troll all the good marvel 3 players know mystic ray is a confirmed morrigan counter

Cheech Wizard · January 26

The only thing that I feel counters morridoom is vergil/vajra or some really ham point character + bolts or plasma beam. Point Strider + bolts really gives her trouble imo. Other than that 70% of the cast just loses to it and the rest go even with it.

Rokmode · January 26

The Ultimator, post: 7938461, member: 58020 wrote:

psh rok your a troll all the good marvel 3 players know mystic ray is a confirmed morrigan counter

it deletes all the hidden missiles mon

poryon2 · January 26

no

pat728 · January 27

Chris G got beat at SCR by two players who were not using teams specifically built to counter morrigan+doom. Additionally, you can counter morrigan+doom, but there is no significant counter to vergil. And even if there was, chris g was the guy who was beating top players with vanilla ryu and no dhc glitch against wolverines, dantes, and phoenix. Beating him is not as simple as just having the matchup advantage. So, I'm going to go with, "no".

DevilJin 01 · January 27

pat728, post: 7942162, member: 69282 wrote:

Chris G got beat at SCR by two players who were not using teams specifically built to counter morrigan+doom. Additionally, you can counter morrigan+doom, but there is no significant counter to vergil. And even if there was, chris g was the guy who was beating top players with vanilla ryu and no dhc glitch against wolverines, dantes, and phoenix. Beating him is not as simple as just having the matchup advantage. So, I'm going to go with, "no".

Yeah I think this is good shit here. People don't really think about how long it takes to start up what makes Morri Doom powerful when she is on point. You can't whiff to build meter in this game...and even in MVC2 where you could whiff to build meter...teams that got shit started quicker eventually started taking over any way.

Morri/Doom's trap in UMVC3 takes longer to set up than any of the traps in MVC2 did because of the time you need to make to run around and find ways to build meter with shit that makes contact. Which is why missiles is important since it follows the opponent in an attempt to lock them down until she can shoot enough shit or get enough shit shot at her to get 2. In MVC3 in that time as players get better...they will either just start learning ways to maul her in those 10 seconds before she gets to AV or have a team that is superior in its projectile spam before AV.

Morri Doom would have eventually started losing a lot more often or getting eventual counters outside of Vergil/Strider as the game went on IMO. The problem now is that a lot of the possible counters that involve projectiles are now being thwarted with Vergil in the mix. Even if you can shoot out her projectile game you have to kill her by the time she gets 2 meters or DHC into Vergil will completely stop your projectile game. The only other thing being if you somehow hit him in the head to deactivate it. Once he gets DHC into Vergil he effectively has infinite spiral swords with Vergil as missiles+round trip chip and dark harmonizer basically give him MVC2 status meter build on a projectile destroying super. It's really hard for any projectile centric team to kill her before she gets two meters first. She has aerial supers so it's easy for her to just jump in the air and then DHC into swords.

Which this will be augmented if he ever starts playing Vergil on point since I feel Vergil has the ability to end the match much more quickly with those 2 assists once he gets started. Then still have Morri/Doom as back up if Morri falls in.

Vergil first is where the team truly becomes an end game team and hopefully Chris G figures that out soon enough. End Game = Team that can stop you from playing within the first 5 seconds of the match no matter how close or far away you are from the point character. That's what Vergil up front should be able to do. Morrigan is really good at dealing with the start of the round...but has no way to win quickly enough to be truly end game.

Graphf · January 27

@ topic,

No.

Brewski_420 · January 28

Little known fact: Ghost Rider beats Morridoom. BURN BURN BURN BURN! kappa.

charlie88 · January 28

The easiest way to beat ChrisG is to nuke whatever mode of transportation he has to a tournement. If he can't play he is not a threat.

<Insert Name Here> · January 28

charlie88, post: 7944893, member: 19683 wrote:

The easiest way to beat ChrisG is to nuke whatever mode of transportation he has to a tournement. If he can't play he is not a threat.

I think it would be easier to discuss the pros and cons of the anime community with him before every grand finals match he plays.

charlie88 · January 28

<Insert Name Here>, post: 7944981, member: 34987 wrote:

I think it would be easier to discuss the pros and cons of the anime community with him before every grand finals match he plays.

I think if we do this we need to have the video of him losing to Dios X and the popoff that followed playing on repeat the entire time.

GameHova · January 28

I remember playing Mystic ray, Skrull at one time and I think goes even with Morrigan Doom. Morrigan Doom is more about the player (Chris G) than the team.
just a thought

YawDan · February 1

Ray Ray did drop Ryu against Chris G. He lost, and Chris G was using Firebrand instead of Vergil:

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/362453970 1:39:09

Tickle Brisket · March 2

RayRay needs to play Strange on piont.Seven rings a soul fist xfactor kill that bitch.Strange is THE counter in my opinion to morri/doom at least.Dorm is also a pretty good counter pick,but we've seen how they turned out for Fchamp.

DevilJin 01 · March 2

Tickle Brisket said:

RayRay needs to play Strange on piont.Seven rings a soul fist xfactor kill that bitch.Strange is THE counter in my opinion to morri/doom at least.Dorm is also a pretty good counter pick,but we've seen how they turned out for Fchamp.

XF1 shenanigans is too much of a risk vs. any good Morri/Doom. You want someone that can battery up for Strange also so Strange wouldn't be a strong first spot unless he had a meter assist behind him. Viper or Magneto are much better meterless against Morri/Doom. Strange and Dorm are both situationally good but their lack of ability to cancel everything into blocks and have strong ground/air plink dash movement hurts them when they don't have optimal resources.

Viper specifically can shut down all of her non astral vision projectile and assist options without spending meter.

Helter Skelter · March 2

RayRay already said he may try:
Viper/Mags/Sent
or
Spence/Mags/Doom

I think Spence/Mags/DeVonte or KBeast's team would be great for him as well.

HappyMonk · March 4

spiderman point. that'd be awesome

Densuo · March 19

He doesn't need to switch out Ryu. he mixes up tatsu for a crossup and properly calls assists to followup after throws. If anyone was a liability to his team I'd say it's Sentinel before even complaining about the best marvel Ryu in the world right now.

DevilJin 01 · March 19

Ryu is not really the ideal character to fight Morri once she gets started since his projectile game is not that powerful without meter.
His super jump height and general movement options against it aren't very good either.

Though he already more or less gave up Ryu against Chris G. He uses Mag/Doom/Sent against him now. I don't really like it after Mag dies, but Mag is just better at it and at least Doom has better stalling options at SJ height than Sent.

RECESSIONTIME · March 19

The only characters I've seen do well against morridoom are wolverine, nova, and vergil. Therefore put those three in a team with vergil in anchor, wolverine on point making sure to kill morrigan on hit. Doom/vergil is a problem too but nothing compared to having to deal with morridoom.

imo wolverine/nova/vergil is as anti-morridoom as one can get.

<Insert Name Here> · March 19

Densuo wrote: »

He doesn't need to switch out Ryu. he mixes up tatsu for a crossup and properly calls assists to followup after throws.

Except he could actually be comboing off of those throws or playing a character with better mixups than crossup-or-not tatsus.

If anyone was a liability to his team I'd say it's Sentinel before even complaining about the best marvel Ryu in the world right now.

Being the best Marvel Ryu in the world doesn't make playing Ryu any less of a liability.

DevilJin 01 · March 19

Granted Ryu has fuzzy overheads with Sent assist, but you can't use fuzzy overheads during Morri flood.

YawDan · March 19

RECESSIONTIME wrote: »

The only characters I've seen do well against morridoom are wolverine, nova, and vergil. Therefore put those three in a team with vergil in anchor, wolverine on point making sure to kill morrigan on hit. Doom/vergil is a problem too but nothing compared to having to deal with morridoom.

imo wolverine/nova/vergil is as anti-morridoom as one can get.

I see where your coming from, but I think those characters won as they were part of other teams that help them play to their strengths and provided them with good support.

Wolverine/Doom (Plasma Beam)/Vergil
Nova/Spencer/Dr Strange (Bolts of Balthalks (sp?))
Also Dante/Vergil/Magneto

Though they are good characters and are great as part of other teams, Wolverine, Nova and Vergil don't make a great team together with each other unfortunately.

<Insert Name Here> · March 19

RECESSIONTIME wrote: »

The only characters I've seen do well against morridoom are wolverine, nova, and vergil. Therefore put those three in a team with vergil in anchor, wolverine on point making sure to kill morrigan on hit. Doom/vergil is a problem too but nothing compared to having to deal with morridoom.

imo wolverine/nova/vergil is as anti-morridoom as one can get.

That's not really how intelligent team structure works...

YawDan's got it right.

charlie88 · March 21

If you want to win against Chris G use the characters that have the most recorded tournement wins other then morrigan.

Wolvie/Doom/Vergil aka team PR ROG

Densuo · March 21

<Insert Name Here> wrote: »

Densuo wrote: »

He doesn't need to switch out Ryu. he mixes up tatsu for a crossup and properly calls assists to followup after throws.

Except he could actually be comboing off of those throws or playing a character with better mixups than crossup-or-not tatsus.

If anyone was a liability to his team I'd say it's Sentinel before even complaining about the best marvel Ryu in the world right now.

Being the best Marvel Ryu in the world doesn't make playing Ryu any less of a liability.

And Sent isn't a walking liability? You may as well pick Wolverine and go for a maul attempt if we really wanna just straight stop morrigan.

<Insert Name Here> · March 22

Densuo wrote: »

And Sent isn't a walking liability? You may as well pick Wolverine and go for a maul attempt if we really wanna just straight stop morrigan.

Forgive me, I forgot this discussion was in the context of a RayRay vs. ChrisG match.

Of course Sent will be a huge liability in general against Chris/MorriDoom, but overall, I think it's Ryu who will turn out to be the bigger liability in the long run. Not saying that he has to make the switch, but I'd have Sent on my team over Ryu any day.

If RayRay took Ryu off of his team do you think he could beat Chris G?

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