2013 SSF4 A.E. Zangief Change list.

Final_Round666Final_Round666 Death by SpdJoined: Posts: 616
As the title states, lets discuss Zangief's most needed buffs for the upcoming game. In my opinion, Zangief needs are as follows:

1. Make Far St.Mk neutral or even plus on hit. This move being negative on hit is just retarded.
2. Buff Ultra 2's Grab box to that of Hakan's AA grab box.
3. Buff Ex hand frame advantage on hit, something like +4 and non-knockdown on counter-hit.
4. Cr.lk take away one frame of recovery, so that it returns to a 2-frame link to link into shorts, or jabs.
5. Give him back his jump from Vanilla, which was god like.
6. Change input command of ultra 2 to 2x QCF.
7. Fix the splash glitch, so that when it hits on crouchers their body doesn't fly back and force cr.lp to whiff.
8. Make his lp green hand on hit, -1 instead of negative -1million.


I truly don't understand how some of Zangief's normals, special moves are negative on hit ??? I truly hope Zangief get's some of these buffs.

Side note:
These Zangief forms are fucking dead lol. Wtf is going on??? no one finding anything new or cheap with Gief ??
FoutsKazuya said," You know normal green hand is bad, when gief players would rather jump than attempt using it, for the sole reason it was even given to him"
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Comments

  • oxsnake eyezxooxsnake eyezxo U.S.A park! Joined: Posts: 100
    Some of those buffs sound interesting especially #3 and #8. The kind of things I'd like to see done to Gief are things like instant projectile invicibility on kick lariat and a fix to his ex green hand were if Gief hit the tip of someones limb the 2nd hit of the ex green hand would do something else instead of whiffing and being put into a negative situation for landing 1 of Geifs metered moves, a quick solution for that would be to just make Giefs ex green hand 1 hit and armor break
  • Final_Round666Final_Round666 Death by Spd Joined: Posts: 616
    Yeah, I actually forgot all about that ex hand hitting one-time and being super negative on hit. Even if they don't buff him, fix the most mentioned important things. RBG Should have some uses... I mean, he round run faster, or something. Also, I think pointless normals Close. St.hp, cr.hp do something with them. In ST, Zangief's cr.hp was god like for people who like to jump in from far ranges, or in general it was an amazing AA. As far as AA's go, he only has lariat and close. st lp ( which is very circumstantial) . Cr.mp works rarely.
    FoutsKazuya said," You know normal green hand is bad, when gief players would rather jump than attempt using it, for the sole reason it was even given to him"
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭
    Finally, this thread :razzy:. We are trying to make a list with buffs for every character bar the top. For zangief things are kinda complicated, since there are 2 ways people would like him. I will post both ways of buffing gief, and maybe you guys can tell me which way you would preffer (of course, besides coming with your own ideas).
    So, 1st solution:

    - EX Green Hand: kd on hit.
    - cr LP: +10 dmg (30)

    Basically return gief to his Super status, keep the buffs, and make his bnb more damaging.

    2nd solution:

    - Green Hand: - reduce the start up with 1 frame (10-12-15-12)
    +2 hitstun for normal versions (-3/-4-5) and +1 hitstun for Ex version (+2)
    - HP: reduce the start up with 1 frame (11)
    - cr. LK: reduce the start up with 1 frame (3)
    - cr LP: +10 dmg (30)
    - EX Green Hand: +10 dmg (150)

    Keep gief a footsie oriented character like now, but make him better. I honestly would preffer the second version, since our goal is to tone down the vortex in this game.

    Another thought I had is - give gief more health - 1200, like in vanilla.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • chief713chief713 Texas Cyclone Joined: Posts: 420
    EX GH should knock down and break armor
    cr.LK should be a 2 frame link again
    regular GH should be safe (0 or -1) on hit
    Gief's air hitbox should be back to how it was in vanilla
    Bigger hitbox on headbutt
    If EX GH won't give a KD, then U2 should be able to catch ALL backdashes after landing it from ANY range. It always frustrates the hell out of me when I get a cr.LK xx EX GH and then read the backdash correctly only for U2 to whiff. That situation is the exact reason why he has it in the first place.

    And I agree that something needs to be done about getting punished for landing only 1 hit of EX Hand. It's pretty stupid.
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    Revised desired change list:

    1. Ultra 2 grabs all aerial moves, including invincible specials and ultras. Eg. EX Shoryuken
    2. cr.mp is +4 on hit
    3. far st.hp should be 10 frame startup and have increased float state on hit
    4. 1 hit EXGH should be at advantage.
    5. Atomic Suplex should be 1 frame startup
    6. EX Atomic Suplex should always default to EX RBG if grab doesn't connect
    7. HPGH should have significantly increased startup, but reduced recovery after the banish

    *cr.lk back to 3 frame startup would be sweet, but at reduced damage.
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • chief713chief713 Texas Cyclone Joined: Posts: 420
    Revised desired change list:

    1. Ultra 2 grabs all aerial moves, including invincible specials and ultras. Eg. EX Shoryuken

    :clapdos: This is irritating as fuck.
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    Make 1 Hit EXGH intentional!!! So that at a certain spacing, you can score a knockdown or +4 on hit and can link a combo. And make this spacing USEABLE.

    Example Combo: 1 Hit EXGH linked into cr.lk xx EXGH
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭
    Based on your proposals, this is what I think for gief:

    - Green Hand: - reduce the start up with 1 frame (10-12-15-12)
    +3 hitstun for normal version, +2 hitstun for Ex (-2/-3/-4/+3)
    - Ex GH: becomes 1 hit, and armor breaks
    - cr LP: +10 dmg (30)
    - Double G. S.: +10 dmg for normal version (230)
    +20 dmg for Ex version (260)
    - Running B. G.: faster traveling speed
    - cr. MP: +1 hitstun (+4)
    - far HP: reduce the start up with 1 frame (11); increased float state
    - EX Green Hand: +10 dmg (150)
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    - far HP: reduce the start up with 1 frame (11); increased float state

    Hey emanuelb, just wondering why you think far HP should be 11 frames start up. When I think it should be 10 frame start up?

    As I'm thinking along the lines of whiff cr or st. lp into far HP to cover Sagat's back dash. 14 frame move + 10 frame startup of far HP. Also tags jumps better after cr.lp or st.lp on hit.
    - Green Hand: - reduce the start up with 1 frame (10-12-15-12)
    +3 hitstun for normal version, +2 hitstun for Ex (-2/-3/-4/+3)

    You know that will turn Zangief into a combo machine, re-looping into mixups galore.
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭
    You know that will turn Zangief into a combo machine, re-looping into mixups galore.

    Well, since he lost the KD property, I thought maybe give him something threatening. What do you mean exactly by combo machine, what would these changes do ?
    Then maybe reducing the hitstun buff to +2 for normal/ +1 for ex ?
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    Well, since he lost the KD property, I thought maybe give him something threatening. What do you mean exactly by combo machine, what would these changes do ?
    Then maybe reducing the hitstun buff to +2 for normal/ +1 for ex ?

    Every time you land a hit confirm combo ending in LPGH, you put them into another mix-up at +2, which is even better than the current +1 mix-up off of EXGH combos!

    So a Zangief without meter, could land one combo, end it in LPGH. Read a jump from the opponent, tag them in pre-jump frames, for another combo ending in LPGH for yet another mixup.

    Example: Jump MK, cr.lp xx cr.lp. st.lk xx LPGH = +2 on hit (opponent jumps back) ... tag with far mp. st.lk xx LPGH +2 on hit ... another mix-up. Seems way too overpowered. The opponent would have to back dash or reversal or block to get out.

    Plus, all LPGH and MPGH can now be option selected, without fear. Zangief witn no EX Bars would be untouchable!!! It would be like having infinite EX Bars for o/s EXGH ... and at +2, you get an even better mix-up.

    Edit: Plus you will never need to end combos in EXGH as LPGH is far better.

    It's really going to turn him into a combo machine, and break him as a character.
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • chief713chief713 Texas Cyclone Joined: Posts: 420
    Example: Jump MK, cr.lp xx cr.lp. st.lk xx LPGH = +2 on hit (opponent jumps back) ... tag with far mp. st.lk xx LPGH +2 on hit ... another mix-up. Seems way too overpowered. The opponent would have to back dash or reversal or block to get out.

    I don't see a problem with this. Why should we have to burn a bar to give people a somewhat legitimate reason not to jump away? I've played matches where my opponent would do something punishable (like purposely throwing fireballs in my face) to get me to burn my meter so that I can't EX SPD for positioning, buffer cr/st. LK xx EX GH and so that they could just jump away if they were in a mixup situation because Gief doesn't have a good, meterless response to up-back. And you listed 3 ways in which they can get out of it so I wouldn't exactly say it's overpowered.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭
    Every time you land a hit confirm combo ending in LPGH, you put them into another mix-up at +2, which is even better than the current +1 mix-up off of EXGH combos!

    So a Zangief without meter, could land one combo, end it in LPGH. Read a jump from the opponent, tag them in pre-jump frames, for another combo ending in LPGH for yet another mixup.

    Example: Jump MK, cr.lp xx cr.lp. st.lk xx LPGH = +2 on hit (opponent jumps back) ... tag with far mp. st.lk xx LPGH +2 on hit ... another mix-up. Seems way too overpowered. The opponent would have to back dash or reversal or block to get out.

    Plus, all LPGH and MPGH can now be option selected, without fear. Zangief witn no EX Bars would be untouchable!!! It would be like having infinite EX Bars for o/s EXGH ... and at +2, you get an even better mix-up.

    Edit: Plus you will never need to end combos in EXGH as LPGH is far better.

    It's really going to turn him into a combo machine, and break him as a character.

    Oh, but I didn't mean to make LP GH +2 on hit, that would be way too much. I was thinking of adding +3/+2 hitstun, so LP GH would be from -5, as it is right now, -2/-3 on hit.
    And I think this would be fair, I don't see the point of being punished on hit.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    Oh, but I didn't mean to make LP GH +2 on hit, that would be way too much. I was thinking of adding +3/+2 hitstun, so LP GH would be from -5, as it is right now, -2/-3 on hit.
    And I think this would be fair, I don't see the point of being punished on hit.

    Even with -3 on hit, the opponent's punish would have to be frame perfect, otherwise they risk eating Ultra 1. Which results in attempting to punish the LPGH an unnecessary risk, as opposed to a guaranteed punish as we have now.

    I can't remember exactly back to the old days of SF2, but I always thought GH was never supposed to hit, but be used for banishing projectiles or approaching. If they could tweak the recovery, so you recover much quicker on whiff or much quicker on a projectile banish. And severely increase the penalty on hit. We would have a workable GH.

    Being able to safely combo into regular GH, would see a more combo friendly Zangief, and less of the grappler.
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • chief713chief713 Texas Cyclone Joined: Posts: 420
    I think it would be the opposite. You'd see more of the grappler. Safe combos into GH will make people respect cr.LK a lot more and open up the floodgates for some nasty tick throw setups. And if it's a problem, they could easily decrease the damage on regular GH, or make it do less in combos. It's not like we use it anyway so that wouldn't break anything else.
  • oxsnake eyezxooxsnake eyezxo U.S.A park! Joined: Posts: 100
    The fact of hitting someone with a LPGH and it being negative on hit makes me feel like I should be using it for banishing projectiles, but it's not good for that either. Zangief can't really get mixups off of a knock down so I don't see a problem with making his stand up game better.
  • bitbna1bitbna1 Joined: Posts: 897
    Give Zangief RBG from SFXT (Armor on Non-EX + Travel Speed) Kappa
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    edited March 2013
    The fact of hitting someone with a LPGH and it being negative on hit makes me feel like I should be using it for banishing projectiles, but it's not good for that either. Zangief can't really get mixups off of a knock down so I don't see a problem with making his stand up game better.

    I know what you mean. The odds need to change so that expected outcome of projectile banishing is EVEN. And not vastly negative as we currently have it. It's probably stacked like that because of the damage of Ultra 1. A Zangief with Ultra 2, would only be able to net 250 from a HP SPD after the fact. And also the SF4 mechanism of FADC forward dash, means that regular GH HAS to be nerfed.

    However, what I want to see, is a reworking of the regular GH. Changing where the active frames occur with regards to displacement. So Zangief banishing and active frames occur much much later in the move. This would allow regular GH to be SAFE on hit, if spaced appropriately, at max range. You couldn't combo into it BUT you could use it as an approach. It would still be negative on hit.

    EDIT: Also would wish for EX Atomic Suplex (upclose 360+K) to be throw-invincible, as your only way out of Akuma's Ultra 1, and you could jump in on anti-air demons. Abel wouldn't like it though.
    Post edited by Evansgambit on
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 5,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I want to be able to do normal xx RBG like in ST. Ultimate salt ahoy.
  • chief713chief713 Texas Cyclone Joined: Posts: 420
    edited March 2013
    Update officially announced. Maybe some of these will come true.

    What else would you guys want added/changed?

    EDIT: Apparently, Capcom is listening (or pretending to) to fan feedback on character balance changes over at Capcom Unity. So let's get our requests well formed and reasonable so that Capcom takes (or pretends to..) us seriously and to drown out the inevitable whining from uninformed casuals that don't know shit about the game or the character.
    Post edited by chief713 on
  • scratchbackscratchback Joined: Posts: 669 ✭✭
    I think it's awesome we get a new update for the series. New stages and maybe even new characters would be pretty sick but as far as Gief goes I'm not expecting any improvements whatsoever. They've made him worse with every update so I'm expecting the exact same here. It's quite obvious that they don't listen to what skilled Gief players say and instead listen to clueless scrubs that always bitch about how grapplers are always cheap. I fully expect jab spd range to be decreased because every scrub complains about that.

    This is all wishful thinking and I'm sure none of these changes will take place but:

    Make ex.gh kd again(0% chance this will ever happen)
    Don't make st.mk -98070979 on hit, makes no sense at all
    Get rid of rbg. The move is fucking useless!!!!!!
    Slight damage buffs on normals and ex.gh
    Quicker df sweep
    Since non ex.gh's are basically useless give us significant meter when we use them to absorb fireballs like Rose
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    I think it's awesome we get a new update for the series. New stages and maybe even new characters would be pretty sick but as far as Gief goes I'm not expecting any improvements whatsoever. They've made him worse with every update so I'm expecting the exact same here. It's quite obvious that they don't listen to what skilled Gief players say and instead listen to clueless scrubs that always bitch about how grapplers are always cheap. I fully expect jab spd range to be decreased because every scrub complains about that.

    This is all wishful thinking and I'm sure none of these changes will take place but:

    Make ex.gh kd again(0% chance this will ever happen)
    Don't make st.mk -98070979 on hit, makes no sense at all
    Get rid of rbg. The move is fucking useless!!!!!!
    Slight damage buffs on normals and ex.gh
    Quicker df sweep
    Since non ex.gh's are basically useless give us significant meter when we use them to absorb fireballs like Rose

    - Decreasing jab SPD range would reduce Zangief the grappler, and you'd have to compensate with Zangief the combo machine.
    - Not really sure what the purpose of far st.mk is, other than the longest poke.
    - Buff RBG to make LK the current speed, MK a bit faster, and HK even more faster.

    regular GH is the universal back dash punish, that leads into a knockdown, and a cross-over mix-up. Yes, it requires reads, is vulnerable to EVERYTHING else, except maybe neutral jump. Jump back owns it for full combo, any attack owns it for full combo, reversals own it, and throws own it.

    And on top of my previous recommendations, like far st.hp down from 12 frame to 10 frame startup (to tag jumps during block string or combo resets) and increased float state on hit, to allow juggle EXGH.

    And a new notion of mine, I want, Super FAB to have LP SPD range!!! As I've always believed that the super should be superior to the Ultra. Face it, its more rare and way more risky as you gamble 4 EX bars.
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • ShabroutShabrout Joined: Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭
    Definitly take a bear grab instant startup, I sometime use ex bear to stop people from neutral jump in front of me waiting me to enter their air attack range and they fall for an Ex bear more than not. But that insane startup make it quite useless in fact against better opponent.
  • King FunkKing Funk Smash Guru Joined: Posts: 14
    I don't think Zangief needs that many buffs. The only important ones I'd like to have are:

    1. Make LP/MP/HP green hand -2, -3 and -4 on hit, so that using them in combos becomes viable (except vs grapplers) but still less rewarding than EX green hand (+1)
    2. Give cr. MP +4 on hit so that he's able to perform the 1-frame link cr. MP -> cr. LK -> Lariat combo (a difficult but rewarding combo due to no meter expense)
    3. Increase damage on Ultra 2 to 500, to make it more rewarding to land.

    I think those changes are all Zangief really needs. We can't hope for the EXGH KD, but I do believe that changes 1 and 2 would help Zangief not rely on EXGH combos all the time and use less meter in general. Less meter usage would mean more meter to use EXGH in the neutral game (which is especially useful for fireball matchups) and more opportunities to save up for and land Supers.
    SSB64: C. Falcon ; SSBM: Falco ; SSFIVAE: Zangief ; UMvC3: Task/Doom(a)/Ammy ; SSF2T: E. Honda, Zangief, O. Sagat
  • VeggeyVeggey Joined: Posts: 365
  • chief713chief713 Texas Cyclone Joined: Posts: 420
    I'd like to see:

    EX RBG have the same properties as L. RBG in SFxT. He should be able to hold it and use the armor to absorb a hit and grab from maybe slightly farther than M. SPD range. Maybe have it active for 1 second before it goes into the moving taunt animation. And he should be able to cancel into dash. That'd be a nice middle ground as far as grabbing pokes with a read. It's not brainless as you still have to guess, but it's not as unforgiving as whiffing SPD. It still costs a bar and quite a few characters can punish Gief's backdash, and everyone can punish his forward dash so it's not really free. Maybe even bump the damage down to M. SPD.

    st.RH should be slightly faster. If Capcom decides they wanna keep Gief more footsie oriented, then a faster st.RH will allow him better frame traps for people trying to jump away.

    This, in addition to the stuff I mentioned before. And fuck any version of any move being unsafe on hit. That's incredibly fucking stupid. Not you, Funk, but Capcom for ever thinking that was a remotely good idea and fair.

  • scratchbackscratchback Joined: Posts: 669 ✭✭
    I just have this strange feeling that Sagat is going to get buffed big time. Maybe even Sim as well. I think it's safe to say Akuma will get nerfed so that may be the only positive for Gief players.
  • Mecha_Gief187Mecha_Gief187 Joined: Posts: 5
    Ok, for anyone and everyone that cares for Zangief... I would, suggest that we come down final buffs, reason for the buffs and post them in the capcom unity board. I will, compile all of which are fair and reasonable for Zangief. So, lets put our heads together and come up with some

    BUFFS:

    ULTRA 2 GRAB BOX BUFF:
    -Increased the grab box
    -Allow to grab anything that's considered airborne


    Reason:
    First and foremost, The grab box in this Ultra is severally small. For Anti-Air ultra, it doesn't work as it suppose to, for example it should grab
    anything that's considered airborne rather the character is invincible or not.If Ryu would do a ex dragon punch, and zangief were to do Ultra 2
    both would fly through each other or, zangief would a combo on chunli with ex green hand and in anticipation of her doing a backdash, reads
    and does ultra 2 but the ultra whiffs defeating the entire purpose that it was originally used for. With the risk/reward factor, with the above
    mentioned buffs, it will make Ultra 2 more useful.


    FAR STANDING MK BUFF:
    -Decrease frame disadvantage on hit from -7 on hit to -1 and from -10 on block to -7

    Reason:
    Zangief is a footsie based character and relies heavily on his standing normals to punish whiff normals, far punishes etc. Far St.mk being -7 on hit,
    defeats the purpose of it being used, limiting the use of his normals. -7 Even on hit is a bit extreme and is ultra punishable, and super punishable
    from a wide variety of characters. By making this normal -1 and on hit and -7 on block, it allows zangief to have another footsie tool to aid him thus making the character
    stronger on his feet, but also allowing him to be punish for not using far st.mk on block.



    EX GREEN HAND HITBOX INCREASED
    -Increased the overall hitbox so it always hits twice.


    Reason:
    Zangief Ex hand doesn't have many uses, besides going threw fireballs and some combo usage. But Zangief's ex hand since vanilla has never
    been fixed, for example there's a range that even if the zangief player reads the fireball and successfully punishes the opponent for throwing
    a bad fireball, the ex hand will only hit once and making zangief punishable for reading the fireball, Ryu can even sweep punish, dragon punch and
    a multitude of other options, defeating the whole purpose of its usage. By increasing the hitbox, so it always hits twice from all ranges, it will allow
    Zangief to be stronger on his feet with against fireball based zoning characters.



    -EX GREEN FRAME ADVANTAGE INCREASE
    -Increase from +1 on hit to +3 .

    Reason:
    The Ex knockdown Nerf was devastating to Zangief as a character overall. Zangief must use his vitality to get in and usually that could range from 25 % to
    even more just to get in once and possible win with a knockdown but that changed drastically when ex hand didn't knockdown and left his opponent, on
    his or her feet giving them an even greater chance to get away, even after Zangief has worked so hard to get. By increasing frame advantage on hit to +3
    on hit, it will allow a better reward after he spent the whole match and vitality trying to get in. Increasing it to +3. will give him better options of advancement
    after contact with ex hand,..previously +1 would put him in psuedo advantage state, leaving the opponent standing defeat several of Zangief's own options on
    the advance. Such, zangief whiff punishes Sagat's sthk with crounching light punch option select ex hand, but it's only +1, If Zangief normal green hand, ex green
    hand in anticipation of a backdash and neutral jump or holds up-back zangief will punish. By, making it +3, it puts him in a more safe position to apply pressure
    with meaty normals such as crouching light kick , Far st.mp. This buff will Zangief to be safer and stronger on his feet granting him the ability to also be truly
    advantageous after ex hand .


    RUNNING BEAR GRAB
    - Faster running start up
    - 3 Hit Armor Property

    Reason:
    As it stands since the original street fighter 4, this move has been useless in all formats. First, Zangief runs slowly across the screen to grab his opponent. 2nd RBG
    Is so slow that any and all opponents can see and punish this from all angles. By giving him 3 hits of Ex Armor and increasing the speed of which zangief runs it can
    be used to catch opponents off guard, the 3 hits of Armor would allow Zangief some protection while he's making his advancement but still making it extremely
    high risk/ high reward.



    Final thoughts :
    By giving Zangief these buff's overall has a character would make him more rewarded after he has spent time getting in on the opponent, more useful tools added
    to help him in extremely bad match up's vs fireball characters and giving him the ability to have a more useful Ultra 2 that add another element or dimension to our
    favorite Russian wrestler. Lets Keep the Russian Sky's protected.....FOR MOTHER RUSSSSSSIA !!!!!








  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    I just have this strange feeling that Sagat is going to get buffed big time. Maybe even Sim as well. I think it's safe to say Akuma will get nerfed so that may be the only positive for Gief players.

    Here is a buff I would like to see. Increase Sagat's and possibly all characters back dash height during air frames. At present you can't seemingly react to and punish back dash, despite it being 22 to 26 frames. You have to luck out or option select a punish.

    Plus more height makes it, all the more Siberian bait! Yummy.
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    Shabrout wrote: »
    Definitly take a bear grab instant startup, I sometime use ex bear to stop people from neutral jump in front of me waiting me to enter their air attack range and they fall for an Ex bear more than not. But that insane startup make it quite useless in fact against better opponent.

    I agree. The Armour absorb on EX RBG is garbage, too slow to grab before the second hit, when it should be a lot quicker. Effective grabbing range on all RBG should be increased instead of the current point blank.

    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • scratchbackscratchback Joined: Posts: 669 ✭✭
    They haven't done a thing to rbg so it's highly doubtful that they'll suddenly make changes to it. Especially something crazy like giving it 3 hits of armor. Just get rid of the damn move all together. I would say that reasonable requests would be:

    Fix st.mk
    Maybe change u2 motion and range
    Overall damage buff to normals, ex.gh, jab spd
    Faster far sweep and st.rh
    Get rid of that retarded close st.lk shin kick move. Again, completely useless.
  • PsychoJoshPsychoJosh CRUNCH TIME Joined: Posts: 3,145
    edited March 2013
    Definitely want a simpler U2 input, as well as increased grab box for it. Also there are certain things that are able to escape it despite being considered airborne, for example Seth's EX shoryuken and Dhalsim's U2. This Ultra needs to be able to grab EVERYTHING out of the air.

    Jab SPD needs to do 190 damage, Super needs increased range. And RBG needs the option to be dashed or FADC'd out of.

    And then, you guys pick what to do about EX hand.
    Post edited by PsychoJosh on
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  • CybahCybah Joined: Posts: 50
    Zangief needs some serious buffs to make him more competitive. I think we all would love to see a Zangief winning a tournament but we all know that this will never happen cause of some really bad match-ups. ;)

    I'm not starting to make some buff suggestions since I'm only a ~2500pp casual player. But I really hope that we will see some really good ones from zangitan, vangief, snake eyes and aquasilk.
  • PsychoJoshPsychoJosh CRUNCH TIME Joined: Posts: 3,145
    Cybah wrote: »
    Zangief needs some serious buffs to make him more competitive. I think we all would love to see a Zangief winning a tournament but we all know that this will never happen cause of some really bad match-ups. ;)

    Did you miss this?
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  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For all it's worth, Zangief can grab Sim's U2 with U2, I just did it yesterday.

    All I want is either more ways to get oki (knockdown on EX GH) or better oki once you're in (3 frame cr.lk and Armor break + 1 hit on EX GH).
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  • PsychoJoshPsychoJosh CRUNCH TIME Joined: Posts: 3,145
    edited March 2013
    I agree with Cybah. Give Zangief lots of buffs. Chief among them being simpler U2 input, increased U2 box, increased Super range, and increased damage on normals and Jab SPD.

    Green Hand needs buffs but I can't decide what.

    For a grappler, Zangief isn't threatening enough up close. Getting up close should mean that the opponent is in TERRIBLE danger.
    Post edited by PsychoJosh on
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  • ShabroutShabrout Joined: Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭
    I disagree with this Psycho.
    Jab Spd damage is fine. The range and speed make it for any other thing you could think about.
    And Gief IS damn scary at close range.

    cr.lk links aren't that hard to perform. I can get them often in training room after a month while I fail miserably to do a tsumuji loop with Ibuki after a year trying here and there. So I think top level players don't have trouble using them.

    The biggest problem is that far.st.lk kara cancel window. If they could remove this huge windows so we can far.lk xx EX GH more easily that could change Gief Mix ups success.
    Spalsh , cr.lk, cr.lk, st.mp, far.lk xx EXGH would be 309 damage every time instead of : missing links/ whiffed far.lk / karaed EXGH
    and without any damage buff, Gief will to more damage.

    I agree that super and ultra could have more reach because not being able to ultra a blocked ultra because you're pushed too far is just unfair. I wouldn't mind a longer start up time if the range was like lp SPD.

    For the ultra II motion, how about being able to activate in air AND ground. No more need to jump or delayed kkk, thus faster startup when you need it asap.
  • CybahCybah Joined: Posts: 50
    edited March 2013
    I just saw this: (SSF2 Turbo HD Remix)

    RBG was useful in older SSF versions. O_o Unbelievable. :D
    Post edited by Cybah on
  • Grimmjow316Grimmjow316 Huracán Salvadoreño Joined: Posts: 5,353 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would like if RBG had a cancel like Hakan I have hated when I don't get U2 and get the RBG to eat a combo... That and make EX version like Fuerte's EX run need three hits instead of two.
    "Life's a journey not a destination."
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  • PsychoJoshPsychoJosh CRUNCH TIME Joined: Posts: 3,145
    edited March 2013
    http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/29831855/zangief-balance-suggestions

    Combofiend has opened up discussions on the next characters to rebalance, post your thoughts here.
    Shabrout wrote: »
    I disagree with this Psycho.
    Jab Spd damage is fine. The range and speed make it for any other thing you could think about.

    No it's not.
    Post edited by PsychoJosh on
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  • Mecha_Gief187Mecha_Gief187 Joined: Posts: 5
    Ok, so make a lets get a final count on what we want and need... so forr need lists your top 5 items and list your top 3 wanted items .
  • PsychoJoshPsychoJosh CRUNCH TIME Joined: Posts: 3,145
    edited March 2013
    I think we've earned the right to ask for lots of buffs considering that Zangief has a metric fuckton of bad matchups and they're only going to get worse with the next patch. Those of you claiming that Zangief only needs "a few buffs" are forgetting the fact that everyone in the new version is getting changes as well, most likely changes that'll make our lives even more miserable. This is what caused us to suffer in the last patch: Gief got nerfed by virtue of everyone else getting great buffs. So no, this time we get greedy.

    Simplified U2 input

    Bigger U2 grab box, able to grab everything that's airborne (invincible or not)

    Damage buff to jab SPD, normals, EXGH, Ultra 1

    Bigger EXGH hitbox so it always hits twice

    More frame advantage on EXGH

    Make RBG faster and dash cancellable

    Damage buff to RBG (+10 to each normal one, +20 to EX)

    Increased Super range

    Take away St. MK's frame disadvantage
    Post edited by PsychoJosh on
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  • scratchbackscratchback Joined: Posts: 669 ✭✭
    I agree that matchups will only get worse for Gief and that just makes me sad cause that's bullshit. They've made him worse with every update and it's gonna happen again this time. Hawk might even end up better when all is said and done. Now we all know that ex.gh will never kd again so here are the REASONABLE changes I'd like to see:

    Change u2 input so we can actually react to jumps and take the guessing out of it
    Be able to activate u2 on the ground as well so we don't accidentally run across the screen like a serial rapist
    Better yet, just get rid of rbg all together cause it's useless
    Get rid of that close st.lk shin kick move cause it's also useless
    Quicker far sweep and st.rh
    Fix st.mk so it's not so unsafe on hit cause that's bullshit
    Damage buff on normals, jab spd, ex.gh, and u2
    Reasonable meter gain when absorbing fireballs with regular gh's
    Make ex.gh less punishable on hit when it only hits once(Ryu should not be able to sweep you when you punish a fireball)

    That's all I can think of now but I really think these are reasonable requests and nothing over the top at all. Sadly, I think every single bad matchup Gief has will only get worse except for maybe Akuma. Instead of being disappointed yet again I'm just gonna assume that they're gonna make him worse and be pleasantly surprised if he improves at all. I'm totally expecting Gief to be completely low tier after this update but I hope I'm wrong.
  • PsychoJoshPsychoJosh CRUNCH TIME Joined: Posts: 3,145
    edited March 2013
    We have until the 4th to make our voices heard. Better get in there you guys, post the same things I posted.
    Post edited by PsychoJosh on
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  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you guys are asking for too much. Easier input for U2 + better grab box + ability to do it grounded + being able to grab everything and Dash cancel on RGB and damage buffs to a ton of stuff? come on, let's get realistic.

    As I said earlier, I don't think Gief needs many things, I'd like for cr.lp to get 10 more damage, for EX GH to knockdown again (even if it ends up being not comboable in order to balance it out, as long as they make lp greenhand safe on hit) and for st.mk to be safe (or not so punishable at least) on hit, and maybe for KKK lariat to have instant fireball invincibility, those are changes that would make Gief still be a footsie oriented character, but he would have better ways to start his upclose game and be more damaging at it.

    I don't think Gief needs an easier U2 input, honestly, there are more important things to buff.
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  • AquasilkAquasilk Joined: Posts: 145
    edited April 2013
    what's wrong with the input now for U2? Why would you want to change the input? I don't care about much else, just do something about RGB
    Post edited by Aquasilk on
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    edited April 2013
    Aquasilk wrote: »
    what's wrong with the input now for U2? Why would you want to change the input?

    The only thing wrong with the U2 input is the end user's ability to get it out. That's whats wrong with it. :-)

    If Ultra 2 could be activated during pre-jump frames, that would be sweet. No more penalty EX RBG!!!

    Plus, it would transform ALL EXGH on hit, into U2 mixups. (At current its only an U1 mixup) Thus, no need to make EXGH +3 on hit. Sibberian Sweetness indeed.
    Post edited by Evansgambit on
    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 388
    EX GH to knockdown again (even if it ends up being not comboable in order to balance it out, as long as they make lp greenhand safe on hit) and for st.mk to be safe (or not so punishable at least) on hit, and maybe for KKK lariat to have instant fireball invincibility, those are changes that would make Gief still be a footsie oriented character, but he would have better ways to start his upclose game and be more damaging at it.

    I don't think Gief needs an easier U2 input, honestly, there are more important things to buff.

    Yeah. I was thinking the same thing. EXGH to knockdown, but have the startup of HPGH. So one could no longer hit confirm into it, or option select into it. But use it to close distance.

    It would be the ace in the whole to get in on Sagat, since when you get into range, you effectively neutralize his tools (far st.hk, and tigers)

    You could still land cl.mp and cl.mk xx EXGH combos, and could possibly hit confirm off of a jump in, or cross up.




    ATOMIC ZANGI: Nuclear & Radioactive
  • oxsnake eyezxooxsnake eyezxo U.S.A park! Joined: Posts: 100
    Definitely need KD on EX green hand back, this is the most important thing!
  • chief713chief713 Texas Cyclone Joined: Posts: 420
    edited April 2013
    EDIT: Added explanations for my changes. Probably gonna post this on CU.

    - Regular GH safe on hit (THIS NEEDS TO FUCKING HAPPEN!)
    - It's just completely inexcusable for this move to be punishable on hit. In no fighting game should you ever
    be penalized for cleanly landing a special.

    - Knockdown on EX GH
    - Without this, Zangief loses the fear needed to keep people on the ground. After an EX hand combo, the
    opponent can either stay grounded and get scooped or jump back and either make Zangief do 1 frame links
    and waste another meter just to keep them grounded or eat a normal, the worst being st.RH. And if they
    have a reversal and bars, the "guess" is even more of a no-brainer.

    - Ability to dash-cancel RBG
    - At this point, everyone should realize that this is just an accident move. It comes out when we mess up
    inputs. That's the only time you see it; otherwise it's useless. Allowing us to cancel wouldn't make the move
    any better, but at least we won't auto-lose the round because we were a few pixels too far away for suplex
    to come out or weren't frame-perfect on the OTG 720 input. It can even cost 2 bars like an FADC.

    - Slightly faster start up on normal sweep or st.RH
    - More wishful thinking than necessity. If EX GH remains non-KD, then implementing either one of these (but
    not both) would allow Gief just a bit more versatility in footsies at far range. Being able to whiff punish with
    sweep or tag jump-back a bit more effectively would help in the neutral game.

    - Complete air dominance and more range on U2 so it catches all backdashes and EX SRKs
    The purpose of this move is to coerce opponents to stay on the ground and discourage aerial escapes and
    reversals. So, it's completely unacceptable that most characters can backdash out of U2 after EX hand and
    some can avoid it altogether with an EX SRK, with a couple of those characters (Seth and Akuma) being
    some of Gief's worst matchups.

    - EX GH always 2 hits or always safe on hit
    - Just like normal GH, there's no reason why Gief should get punished for landing a hit. EX Hand needs to be
    safe on hit, no matter how many hits connect or where it connects.

    - Slight damage buffs on LP, LK, st.MP, or on SPD/suplex
    - Many characters can hit confirm lights and mediums into combos that do 30%+ damage. Zangief isn't
    supposed to be a combo character so his combos, of course, don't do that much damage. But for the
    difficulty required, his LP SPD doesn't do much damage either. It's almost as if the roles are reversed.
    Zangief spends the match chipping away at the opponent, trying desperately to hold on to the life lead.
    And then a character like Akuma touches him once with a cr.MK and makes up all the damage Zangief just
    dealt and THEN puts him in a vortex situation. Isn't that how Gief is supposed to work?

    - Focus attack should have a bigger (lower-extending) hitbox
    - I don't see a reason why his (or any) FA should be crouchable. I understand if some things like Ryu or Juri
    cr.MK low profile it, but there are too many characters with problematic low attacks that FA just whiffs right
    over.

    - Lariat should be throw invincible for the first 2 or 3 frames
    - It can be crouched. It loses to or trades with all DPs. It has horrible recovery. It shouldn't lose to throws
    too. As it stands, on wakeup Zangief has nothing throw invincible except SPD. It's not a big deal against
    a lot of the cast, but makes some of his hard matchups (Seth, Akuma) that much more insurmountable.
    Lariat invincibility for the first couple frames would make Gief a lot less free to things like wake up DF grab.
    I'd even be willing to trade the ability to FADC lariat for this change.
    Post edited by chief713 on
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