The application of the of five animals theory on balancing issues for fighting games

RodrigoCariocaRodrigoCarioca Joined: Posts: 12
The application of the of five animals theory on balancing issues for fighting games

The correct use and application of the theory of the 5 animals of Shaolin would make balancing issues an easier task for developers of fighting games.

The theory divides combat strategy into five different categories and assigns an animal to act as a metaphor for each one. It has a similar structure of rock-paper-scissors game, but with 5 elements.

Below is a brief explanation of each animal and their strategies used in combat, and resumed from (http://lifestylekungfu.com/articals/the-5-animal-fighting-strategies/), for more details about the theory please search for the subject on the internet.

Dragon
Element: Fire
Advantage against: Tiger
Disadvantage against Leopard

Its strategy revolves around leaving, opening and moving just enough to appear to be just out of reach of its attacker, thus giving it the illusion of impending success and the encouragement to continue its committed action and then redirecting that energy in a different direction or exaggerating the original path of travel.
The Dragon defeats the Tiger buy using the Tiger’s committed force against itself, but is defeated by the Leopard because of the absence of the committed action that sustains it.

Tiger
Element: Metal
Advantage against: Crane
Disadvantage against: Dragon
Tiger strategy emphasizes the proper sudden use of extreme committed force and importance of body structure and alignment. The goals are to explode forward with the entire body when advancing to cause the maximum damage possible with each individual strike.

The Tiger defeats the Crane by exploding through its pitiful attempts to keep distant, but is fooled by the elusiveness of the Dragon.

Crane
Element: Wood
Advantage against: Snake
Disadvantage against: Tiger
The main goal of the Crane is to maintain or increase the distance between it and its attacker, reasoning that if it can’t touch you, it can’t hurt you. The Crane responds to short-range combat by unleashing a flurry of short-reaching but powerful strikes, such as knees and elbows. This flurry is intended to create enough breathing room for a quick escape, while NOT extending the limbs, in order to prevent the attacker from grappling.
The Crane defeats the Snake by staying out of reach of its fangs, and fluttering away when the Snake tries to wrap around it. The Crane’s tendency to move directly away from an incoming threat makes it easy prey for the Tiger.

Snake
Element: Earth
Advantage against: Leopard
Disadvantage against: Crane
the Snake can be offensive or defensive, and uses both striking and grappling.
In the striking aspect, instead of using the brute force, the Snake stresses targeting and weaponry, to deliver a focused strike to a vital, and usually small, area, to cause the most damage possible with a single hit. Because of the focus on targeting and weaponry the strike is often a straight, piercing action in which a limb moves forward but the body does not. This allows the Snake to be direct and quick while limiting its vulnerability to counter attack (allowing for a quick Jab or a sudden, devastating counter).
The grappling aspect of the snake can be use defensively at a distance, by trapping and tying up an attacking limb, or riding the limb back to its source.
The Snake defeats the Leopard by either delivering an encounter ending strike before sustaining too much damage, or by constricting around the Leopard, and taking away its constant motion. The Snake is ineffective against the Crane, because it can’t close the distance to employ its techniques.

Leopard
Element: Water
Advantage against: Dragon
Disadvantage against: Snake
The Leopard uses speed and angulations to bury its opponent in a multitude of attacks that seemingly hit all at the same time, or at least in a nonstop rapid-fire barrage. The fact that each individual attack is much weaker than someone using Tiger is balanced with the thought that the effect of the actions combined simultaneously is greater than the sum of the effects felt if each action were separate.
A skilled fighter using Leopard will use both hands and feet to attack multiple targets at once using every possible linear and circular path, up, down, left, and right, snapping out and darting back only be sent out again on another route. The intended result is an opponent that can’t defend itself from all over, at once, and instead just freezes and does nothing. This is part of the defensive strategy of the Leopard, as well as not staying in one place for longer than a blink of an eye and using shifting body movements and footwork to both evade and set up the next wave of strikes. In actuality, the defense of the Leopard is a secondary byproduct of its overwhelming, ever-changing application of offense.
Because the Leopard does not commit itself to any one action, it can make a yummy treat out of the Dragon. The Leopard’s reliance on multiple attacks and constant motion make it vulnerable to the vital strike and grappling attributes of the Snake.

The chart below shows who would win how many fights out of 10 if two high-level fighters of equal skill fighting against each other, using the strategies of the animal shown.

For example, the Dragon would win 6 fights out of 10 against the Tiger.
Dragon Tiger Crane Snake Leopard Total
Dragon 5 6 5 5 4 25
Tiger 4 5 6 5 5 25
Crane 5 4 5 6 5 25
Snake 5 5 4 5 6 25
Leopard 6 5 5 4 5 25


The chart above shows that every style has 3 equal match-ups, 1 good match-up and 1 bad match-up. Emphasizing that with practice even a bad match-up that is 4/6 can be won.

The idea is that in fighting games, to maintain balance, the number of characters should be always multiple of 5 and that these characters were equally distributed in each category.

For example, a game with 16 characters even with few match-ups to learn will eventually have some dominant characters that are not necessarily over powered, but because they have few bad match-ups compared to the others. This is due to the simple fact that 16 are not a multiple of 5!! Even if the top tiers were nerfed with patches and/or updates the only thing that will happen is the rise of a new top tier character in a game that still unbalanced.

Another example, even a game with 35 playable characters (where balance would be achieved when all the characters got 7 bad match-ups, 7 good match-ups and 21 equal match-ups) can still be unbalanced if 8 or more characters are using the same strategy of combat, because 35 divided by 5 (which are the fighting strategies described in this text) is 7! And in this case there is no patch, update or game mechanics/engine that would fix it. The re-balancing once again will just change the positioning of the characters in the tier list and there will still be dominant characters in the game.

And finally, even if the game has a number of playable characters multiple of 5 and these are equally distributed on the five categories of combat strategy, developers have to avoid that the mechanics and/or engine adopted in the game favor any combat strategy over the another (between the 5 shown here) as this would cause imbalance between the characters.

On the selection screen, characters of the same combat strategy could be grouped together for an easy viewing. Another point also is that if they wish to make a nuance among the characters grouped on the same combat style, it could be done by taking bits or pieces of other animal. As example a Tiger could add some Leopard bits or a Crane could add some Dragon pieces to make their style more effective. This is more to be variety between characters of the same combat style as real martial arts combine styles to strengthen their own.

An example would be American Kenpo which uses primarily Leopard strategy with some Snake mixed in and Aikido that uses the Dragon strategy with some Snake strategy.

Assuming that a game had four characters in the Dragon category, they could be:

- A character 100% dragon

- A character 70% dragon 30% snake

- A character 70% dragon 30% crane

- A character 70% dragon 30% tiger

Emphasizing that this example was made without thinking too much, so it is prudent for the developer to make adjustments in order to maintain game balance.

It would be great for any player to get the character that he enjoy and know that his choice is viable for a big tournament. And find variety in the choice of characters by the others playing online!!

Thanks for reading,

Rodrigo Carioca

Comments

  • <Insert Name Here>&lt;Insert Name Here&gt; GUYS THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS Joined: Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shaolin =/= Fighting games.
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  • LunaSlaveLunaSlave insert title here Joined: Posts: 148
    I don't know about this, but it just reminds me even more that we need a high quality Kung Fu Panda fighting game.
  • bkfst_sausagebkfst_sausage ST / SRK2k3 OG Joined: Posts: 2,802
    That was a lot of thought in simply saying...

    "Games should be balanced like Guilty Gear where everyone can seamlessly flow between archetypes, to minimize their weaknesses"
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Quantum Theorist. Liquid Dubstep Energy Joined: Posts: 33,304 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fuck balance. Just make errbody retarded.
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  • PerthoPertho FutharSWAG Joined: Posts: 9,709 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know about this, but it just reminds me even more that we need a high quality Avatar: The Last Airbender fighting game.

    Fixed.

    This also applies to Full Metal Alchemist.
  • etalageetalage Joined: Posts: 372
    Fuck balance. Just make errbody retarded.

    Wouldn't that make the game balanced then?
  • BlackShinobiBlackShinobi Making moves Joined: Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭
    Is it national "throw together a purely theoretical balance system for fighting games that won't work in real life" day? Seriously, what is going on today?
    You're theory completely misses the two largest causes of game unbalance. Undiscovered tech and characters who end up going from one animal to another during the evolution of the game. Depending on the year you could classify MVC2 Sentinel as 3 different types of characters. The same thing has been happening to both MVC3 Dormammu and Morrigan. The theory would hold more validity if character stayed in the class that they were built for but that doesn't happen.

    If a character were built to be 100% tiger and a new discovery a year later turns them into the ultimate leopard. You don't end up with a character that is 50% tiger and 50% leopard, you end up with a character that is 100% tiger and 100% leopard; which in turn also eliminates that characters previous weakness to Dragons and makes leopards weakness to snake an even matchup. Now you have a character with no weaknesses and an advantage over Dragon and Crane: welcome to fighting games.

    Again if this seems to abstract to follow for anyone look at what flight cancelling and unfly turned MVC2 Sentinel into.
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  • NickRocksNickRocks On the west side I'm screaming FUCK KD Joined: Posts: 14,714 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Again if this seems to abstract to follow for anyone look at what unfly turned MVC2 Sentinel into.
    IIRC wasnt unfly discovered within the first 6 months or something? Sindel X Sanford and Row were all doing unfly shit pretty early on
  • BlackShinobiBlackShinobi Making moves Joined: Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭
    IIRC wasnt unfly discovered within the first 6 months or something? Sindel X Sanford and Row were all doing unfly shit pretty early on
    I remember when Sanford stated using unfly and Marvel was a long way into its trap phase at that point. It was well over a year into the game.

    But I'll stop there before sidetracking a thread.
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  • <Insert Name Here>&lt;Insert Name Here&gt; GUYS THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS Joined: Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK, so I actually tried to seriously read this article this time but I couldn't pretend to take it seriously anymore after this:
    For example, a game with 16 characters even with few match-ups to learn will eventually have some dominant characters that are not necessarily over powered, but because they have few bad match-ups compared to the others. This is due to the simple fact that 16 are not a multiple of 5!!
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  • d3vd3v #MAXCPM Fiber Override Joined: Posts: 23,973 mod
    The perfect game would have characters that are DragoTigaCraSnakeoPard... aka Marvel 2 top tiers.
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  • MrRobotoMrRoboto Joined: Posts: 351
    Capcom needs to make a fg with 5 chars then.

    Edit: Sorry for being a dumbass. Capcom needs to make a game with 2 chars and 3 chars dlc.
  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,465 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I remember when Sanford stated using unfly and Marvel was a long way into its trap phase at that point. It was well over a year into the game.

    But I'll stop there before sidetracking a thread.
    Please do
    Are you right? Are you READY!?
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  • d3vd3v #MAXCPM Fiber Override Joined: Posts: 23,973 mod
    Fixed.
    WTB an Avatar fighting game. Actually had an idea of how one one play out, in my head it plays like a cross between P4A (with bending instead of personas) and 3rd Strike.
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  • RodrigoCariocaRodrigoCarioca Joined: Posts: 12
    Shaolin =/= Fighting games.

    Not at all.
    Crane = Keep Away or Run Away tactics used by characters like Trish on MvC3 or Dhalsim on SF4
    Tiger = Tank tactics used by Hulk on MvC3
    Leopard = Rushdown Tactics used by Magneto on MvC2

    Maybe the analogy is less abstract now.
  • Raz0rRaz0r I disapprove Joined: Posts: 8,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    IIRC wasnt unfly discovered within the first 6 months or something? Sindel X Sanford and Row were all doing unfly shit pretty early on
    No. genghis discovered it a year or two after Marvel was out. I think ShadyK was the one who released an explanation of it. People had theories of why it worked but it was proven by these two.
    This is offensive.
  • RodrigoCariocaRodrigoCarioca Joined: Posts: 12
    You're theory completely misses the two largest causes of game unbalance. Undiscovered tech and characters who end up going from one animal to another during the evolution of the game.

    Good point! Maybe it happens because of some bug that the designers have overlooked. Then what you see are people abusing bugs of the program.
    Of course that devs spend a lot of time on characters desingn to make the game look cool but they should put more attention on game balance too.
  • petran79petran79 Here comes an old challenger Joined: Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭
    Reading this reminded me of Saint Seiya....
    not good at any, mediocre at many
  • <Insert Name Here>&lt;Insert Name Here&gt; GUYS THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS Joined: Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe the analogy is less abstract now.
    Shaolin is still not comparable to fighting games. Real fighting in general is not comparable to fighting games.
    Good point! Maybe it happens because of some bug that the designers have overlooked. Then what you see are people abusing bugs of the program.
    Of course that devs spend a lot of time on characters desingn to make the game look cool but they should put more attention on game balance too.
    Congrats, you totally missed his point.
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  • BlackShinobiBlackShinobi Making moves Joined: Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭
    Not at all.
    Crane = Keep Away or Run Away tactics used by characters like Trish on MvC3 or Dhalsim on SF4
    Tiger = Tank tactics used by Hulk on MvC3
    Leopard = Rushdown Tactics used by Magneto on MvC2

    Maybe the analogy is less abstract now.
    Theres still a few things you don't see.
    For one the matchups are all wrong in terms of fighting games. in general Tigers don't beat cranes and Snakes don't beat leopards in addition to that there are more styles in fighting games that don't break down into any of those 5 categories. In a real fight if you grappler grabbed a speed based fighter there is no reason to let that person go. In a fighting game there is forced release at the end of the grab which makes it neccessary to catch the other character all over again.

    Also let me further explain Sentinel a little bit, briefly since I'm supposed to be working on something right now,

    If you look at day one MVC2 and group sentinel with like character you would group him with character like Juggernaut and Hulk. He is big, he hits like a truck, he has armor and he is slow. On your list, although not entirely, he is a tiger.

    If you jump a year into the future people have realised how good his one button beam is, and that it can be cancelled into drones, fligh, rocket punch, or his supers to reduce the recovery. The character that was a tiger is now a serious threat to kill you from the complete opposite side of the screen and can choose to never go near most characters if he chooses. If you group him with like characters now he is closer to doom and cable. And on your list he is closest to a crane. The issue is that he didn't lose any tiger qualities in this transformation to a crane/snake hybrid.

    Fast forward 3 more years now and Sentinel is a no longer even a crane, wave dashing and unfly have greatly increased his mobility and decreased the time between him attacks. He is actually has the ability to be a leopard now. His original build was a trade off of speed for power, that was basically negated by discoveries made after the game's release.
    And whenever he went from one "animal" to another he never lost the traits of the previous animal. He attacks like a leopard but hits like a tiger and can stay away completely and still be at the advantage.

    Meanwhile the game has characters like Juggernaut who started the game a tiger and ended the game a tiger and is completely outclasses by the Leopard/Dragon/Crane/Tiger/Snake that Sentinel has evolved into from his original Tiger state.
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  • HecatomHecatom (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 13,487 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fuck balance. Just make errbody retarded.
    Ask to HNK how well did that work for it :looney:
    Wouldn't that make the game balanced then?
    Not really, you will always have a character that is more retarded.
    On HNK everyone has infinites and stupid shit, but Rei and Toki still dominate the game the major part of the time because they are simply more stupid
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Quantum Theorist. Liquid Dubstep Energy Joined: Posts: 33,304 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ask to HNK how well did that work for it :looney:

    Not really, you will always have a character that is more retarded

    It worked. Toki was dabes and Jagi was still better than most of the good characters in other games. More retarded is better than balancing everybody until they all suck.

    If people are complaining about your character that means they're good. If they're not, they're probably not good anymore.
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  • HecatomHecatom (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 13,487 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It worked. Toki was dabes and Jagi was still better than most of the good characters in other games.

    Debatable
    BTW Rei is better than Toki
    More retarded is better than balancing everybody until they all suck.
    Lucky for us only capcom balance™ that way
    Good balancing means that even when a character has weakness due his archetype(s) he still is capable to function because his strengths compensate for them while not making them negligible.
    Please don't fall for the false notion that balance means making every character boring or taking away the good stuff from the game.
    Just because capcom sucks monkey balls at doing a balanced game without making every character mediocre doesn't mean that the pursue of balance is a bad thing or that it means boring games.
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  • <Insert Name Here>&lt;Insert Name Here&gt; GUYS THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS Joined: Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pretty much this entire thread can be summarized as "Neat formulas cannot balance games."
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  • 3SJ3SJ Joined: Posts: 261
    Balance is overrated.

    balanced fighter games don't sell as well as deep complex fighters.

    Best thing to do is to add some of that virtual balance. Example: Xmen vs Streetfighter.

    Everyone is broken and has infinites,0-KO combos,broken lockdown traps, broken stall tactics,hp regeneration loops, etc.
    Problem is...its so difficult to execute said brokenness on the fly that only pros can really exploit it(crazy GGXX-like 1-2 frame cancels,SNK pretzel motions, smart meter building, complex setups, sweetspot your attack bounding box at a certain angle within a certain TIGHT frame window etc.).

    The game will be broken but at least lazy scrubs can't take advantage of it.
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  • 3SJ3SJ Joined: Posts: 261
    Balance is overrated.

    balanced fighter games don't sell as well as deep complex fighters.

    Best thing to do is to add some of that virtual balance. Example: Xmen vs Streetfighter.

    Everyone is broken and has infinites,0-KO combos,broken lockdown traps, broken stall tactics,hp regeneration loops, etc.
    Problem is...its so difficult to execute said brokenness on the fly that only pros can really exploit it(crazy GGXX-like 1-2 frame cancels,SNK pretzel motions, smart meter building, complex setups, sweetspot your attack bounding box at a certain angle within a certain TIGHT frame window etc.).

    The game will be broken but at least lazy scrubs can't take advantage of it.
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  • RodrigoCariocaRodrigoCarioca Joined: Posts: 12
    Theres still a few things you don't see.
    For one the matchups are all wrong in terms of fighting games. in general Tigers don't beat cranes and Snakes don't beat leopards in addition to that there are more styles in fighting games that don't break down into any of those 5 categories.
    Things like rushdown having advantage versus keep away, tank with advantage versus rushdown and keep away having advantage versus tank plus characters without any specific role (which make 4 devs a hard work to know what to buff or what to nerf when evr1 complain about some characters).
    In a real fight if you grappler grabbed a speed based fighter there is no reason to let that person go. In a fighting game there is forced release at the end of the grab which makes it neccessary to catch the other character all over again.

    Actually grabs likes Giefs SPD could not be put in a snake archetype, the nearest to that concept would be SF2 Blanka Bite (he hold the opponent for a longer time if the buttons were pressed rapidly), and those chain grabs from Tekken. I guess that it could fit better 4 the role if at the end of the grab the character were left in a position where another grab still been a treat.

    There are moves that fits in some styles like:
    Crane – Fireball, ranged pokes
    Tiger – Super moves, Body attacks (if unsafe and with more dmg)
    Dragon – counters (like Geezer Howard AtemiNage), rolls, dodges, parrys

    And the list goes on…if the moves were categorized by their utility would it make any difference to know what moves a character should have or not based on his archetype?

    In your MvC2 example supposing that you were a leader in that game project and even with all the precautions on the development, something like that happened and messed up with all the previous balance concept…what would you do?
  • d3vd3v #MAXCPM Fiber Override Joined: Posts: 23,973 mod
    In your MvC2 example supposing that you were a leader in that game project and even with all the precautions on the development, something like that happened and messed up with all the previous balance concept…what would you do?
    Keep it in.
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  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,165 ✭✭
    People need to stop thinking a rock-paper-scissors model will create the perfect balance fighting game. It doesn't.
    BTW Rei is better than Toki

    Hahaha are you serious?
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  • HecatomHecatom (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 13,487 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hahaha are you serious?
    Yeah, he is slightly better than Toki
    Quoting Gwyrgyn Blood since he explained it well why
    Watch any non-scrubby vids with Rei and you'll pretty much get your answer.

    - Great DP for reversals, DP can be an infinite by itself in the arcade version.
    - Two of the best supers in the game, one is an (almost) 100% safe reversal.
    - Extremely strong air control game. Air shield, projectiles, dive kicks, etc.
    - Some of the strongest basic combos in the game. Easiest and cheapest character to setup infinites with. Gets infinites off literally anything, including a throw.

    See about 14 minutes in here for an example of an infinite starting from a LK without any meter to start: http://de.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10600502

    Lots more Rei crap in this vid: http://de.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10452070
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  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,165 ✭✭
    I almost didn't care to reply to this bullshit, but I'm pissed off right now so why the fuck not.

    1) Great DP for reversals, but so does fucking Kenshiro and almost every character in the game when they have meter, which isn't hard to get. Toki's Saihaken super cannot be blocked in the air at all, it's invulnerable, takes two stars on CH, is fucking stupid and all this on top of this are his 1f reversals.
    2) So does Toki, again Saihaken is dumb, but Sekkakou is even more dumber; It's invulnerable, again, takes 2 stars on normal hit, launches them for a wall combo into 100% and gives frame advantage on block.
    3) Extremely strong doesn't do shit against fucking God strong air game which Toki has. He has his air teleport which immediately takes him to the ground, he has his Tenshou which can be canceled into teleport, he has his 1f air reversal, he has his j.B, he has everything while Rei's divekick is trash.
    4) Toki's comboes aren't that hard either if you're willing to put the effort into the game, for hard comboes you can go to Raoh. Rei get's infinites off literaly everything, but so does everybody else in the game with meter, which again isn't hard to get, especially Toki.

    Rei is cool and all, but fuck everyone who says he's or anyone is better than Toki because they are so full of shit it's leaking out and have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. GTFO with that shit. The only thing Rei does better than Toki is lows, but Toki doesn't need lows to mixup you, he's that broken. No contest, not even a chance.
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • HecatomHecatom (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 13,487 ✭✭✭✭✭
    shit

    Whatever dude, is a know fact by now that Rei > Toki by a slightly margin, if you are so blind to see it not my fault :tup:
    ( •_•) IT'S NOT RAPE,
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■
    IT'S SURPRISE SEX! (⌐■_■)
    YEAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
    "Orgasm is a simile for the emotional epiphany a woman has when the shame of penetration is eclipsed by the inherent virtue of servicing a man." ~ Kromo.
    ( •_•)
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  • RodrigoCariocaRodrigoCarioca Joined: Posts: 12
    Everyone is broken and has infinites,0-KO combos,broken lockdown traps, broken stall tactics,hp regeneration loops, etc.
    Problem is...its so difficult to execute said brokenness on the fly that only pros can really exploit it(crazy GGXX-like 1-2 frame cancels,SNK pretzel motions, smart meter building, complex setups, sweetspot your attack bounding box at a certain angle within a certain TIGHT frame window etc.).


    I don’t know why but it looks like sf rainbow edition to me. I would not be surprised if ppl start to do typewriting course or have piano lessons just to play video games.
    The game will be broken but at least lazy scrubs can't take advantage of it.


    If the game is supposed to be broken that’s ok.
  • NickRocksNickRocks On the west side I'm screaming FUCK KD Joined: Posts: 14,714 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no one even plays xvsf or mshvsf anymore.
  • The DukeThe Duke Joined: Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought know rei > toki was metric on whether someone was keeping up with hnk still

    Sent from my HTC Amaze 4G
  • ReturnOfSantaReturnOfSanta SALTY SANTA Joined: Posts: 430
    Worst thread in a minute
    AE: Cody
    SFxT: Cody x Bryan
    [SIZE=12px]SoCal Casuals @ the Oceanside Fight Club![/SIZE]
  • HyperViperBeamHyperViperBeam Joined: Posts: 48
    Can someone explain to me what people mean when they say unfly? Like, is the fact that Sentinel has a great flight speed and continuous aerial pressure meant by "unfly"? Or do people mean the unfly combos which add more hits to his combos? Or, just something else I'm overlooking? As in, why is his unfly just as notorious as he is?
  • yodooderyodooder It'll be okay, trust me Joined: Posts: 5
    All this Tiger vs Crane nonsense, check your human privilege guys the sooner we smash the species binary the better. Also I saw a tiger fuck a leopard's shit up on the Discovery Channel once but I don't see anything about that match-up in the original poster's listings, what gives?
    "I'm Batman." - Batman
  • zarkingphotonzarkingphoton Joined: Posts: 7
    Can someone explain to me what people mean when they say unfly? Like, is the fact that Sentinel has a great flight speed and continuous aerial pressure meant by "unfly"? Or do people mean the unfly combos which add more hits to his combos? Or, just something else I'm overlooking? As in, why is his unfly just as notorious as he is?

    Sentinel can use the fly and unfly commands to cancel the recovery of some of his moves, leading to totally bitching combos.
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,423 ✭✭✭✭
    Please don't use MvC2 as an example of balance. That game was a prototype for MUGEN. I would be amazed if any balancing attempt was made by Capcom for that game.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭
    Fuck balance. Just make errbody retarded.
    I love messy games over games where everyone is balanced to crap. If HF and Vsav are messy games then by all means.. Make the games messy.
  • RodrigoCariocaRodrigoCarioca Joined: Posts: 12
    edited August 2013
    deadfrog wrote: »
    Hmm, very interesting subject.

    I'd never actually considered this before, even though I do a lot of really deep thinking. I have to admit that you've really helped me see how much the untapped wisdom of kung fu could impact the field of video game design. I know for a fact that very few game companies practice the martial arts and I think it goes without saying that their inevitable resulting ignorance of duality/flow (of energy) is probably one of the major reasons that in the entire history of video games there have only ever been two perfect games.

    So I do generally agree with you to a large extent.

    Personally, however, I believe that fighting games in particular are better off drawing inspiration and insight from other conceptual sources to achieve their balance and harmony.

    For instance, I think the dynamics and intricacies of the prototypical Western nuclear family are a much better model of a fighting game's sensitive and nuanced ecosystem. I would like to see more fighting games that feature a "mom" characters and a "dad" character and some number of children.

    Notice that taking this approach right from the beginning of the design process would actually allow for a fighting game to present potential newcomers with an extremely familiar palette of instantly recognizable human roles. Roles that they themselves have personally experienced, or at least witnessed before, and therefore can easily connect with. These kinds of elementary social puzzle pieces are widely-accepted and -understood entities that our culture has wholly adopted as a comfort. I think that, when people can immediately relate to the characters in a game, they can't help but become emotionally invested in that game. Emotion leads to immersion, and so those people become your players. I think you can create a surrogate family of gamers around a game in this way. See, so by catering to a wider spectrum of human psychological commonalities (the family), you allow more people to become those (emotionally-invested) players that you're after, by offering them a playstyle that they genuinely feel really fits the way that they think as indivduals.

    Using myself as an example, I would describe my playstyle as kind of an older sister who is sort of grouchy sometimes and wears belly shirts at the park to watch boys play baseball. The boys like baseball but they sometimes look at my belly shirt too. My little brother is annoying. It makes sense, right?

    I also think that the classical romantic image of the independent, management-owned bakery would serve as an absolutely fantastic microcosm for a PROPERLY-balanced fighting game. The complex network of self-contained dependencies that help define it are all direct pockets of its foundational structure as a functioning business. I think it goes without saying that the fighting game analogues that correspond to those elements are essentially self-explanatory. And then on top of that they can keep baking every day. Do you know what I mean?

    I mean, the more I think about it the more it's just so obvious. Yeast is the key here.

    Thx man, nice suggestions. In FG peopple tend to choose characters, with cool moves, nice fighting stance and appearence. So another alternative could be if its impossible to make an efective balance, despite possible bugs and glitches, that these characters stay at least at B tier.

    Example: in UMVC3 Ghost Rider is a cool character but he's at botton tier while characters like Zero are at the top (i doubt that people would pick him if he wasnt OP). There are things that dont make any sense, like why should the developers do bad disigned characters OP? This kind of thing occur in other games too...
    Post edited by RodrigoCarioca on
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