SSF4:AE - Throws, juggles, and reversals - what am I doing wrong?

Ace42Ace42 Joined: Posts: 6
So, I've completed the Arcade mode on medium as Chun-Li and Medium-hard as Cammy.

And the latter was obscenely tough. I am now trying to work through on "Hard" as Vega, with equal stress. I've checked all the guide videos, about focussing, FADC, plinking, yada yada but I'm not ready to implement the advanced techniques yet - I'm still failing on a few fundamentals and I really need to get my head around how to beat the basics before I even think about how to refine my game.

Where I am having problems is that the computer is simply way too fast for me - Zangief can barely touch the tip of Cammy's foot during a hard kick and initiate a throw; attempts at using my own throws to tech out of it fail 90% of the time to the point where I can even see Cammy's hand slapping his chest and in the EXACT SAME SECOND his throw goes through. Mine fails despite making contact - but there's no "technical!" word or effect, and he immediately throws me before my throw-slap animation even finishes?

I can't tech out of their throws reliably; I can't seem to hit-stun them out of throws; they seem to be able to throw me no matter what I do or what attacks I launch at them, but I find it obscenely hard to throw them. It's got me tearing my hair out.

This is also a problem with me landing supers and ultras - irrespective of when I launch mine and from where, they appear to have plenty of time to block it, or launch their own special which "trumps" mine even if an animation (such as from Seth's teleport) is STILL PLAYING. I never see my ultras break an enemy ultra - it's as if mine just "lose" vs theirs for some reason?

I know I should only be dropping them when I've set them up (with a crumple for example); but as enemies I've hit-stunned, grounded, etc always seem to be able to reversal before animations have even finished, the amount of time I have to execute them seems too short. For example, by my count a "charge" takes a three-count to register - I've tried executing stuff like Guile's Jacknife, or Chun-Li's fireball with less and it consistently fails until I give it the full three-count and then they go through perfectly.

I don't get how I am supposed to execute these moves when I'm getting grabbed, hit-stunned, and thrown all over the screen but the computer can execute them instantly for reversals *while* it's recovering from them.

I've got a suspicion that it's because I need to master "buffering" and learn "recovery frames" and the like, but that seems to be a ridiculous exercise in book-worming when I'm only 13 hours into a game and have literally no idea where to start.
I also suspect that the trials are supposed to hand-hold you through the combos you need to be able to deal with the enemies; but it was just too frustrating inexplicably failing at a combo despite the inputs saying you're getting it right - or having the combo go through despite performing it exactly as you have the previous ten times. And this STILL doesn't help me if my timing is such that the computer can hit-stun / special me out of the combo even though I'm the one landing the first blows.

I really don't get what I am doing wrong - it seems that every move I make fails before I even launch it at the computer: I'm throwing simple normal cancels at it and it uses an EX move and beats the crud out of me again and again. I throw an EX move at the computer and it just gives me a love tap (or worse still, a throw!) and it fails or, despite being open to hit me, they still manage to recover from the hit and go into a block *while my hit is landing on them*. I charge up a focus and even if I release it before their throw animation starts, I still end up getting grabbed and tossed around. I throw an ultra at them, it cancels my ultra and they beat me.

Should I just drop the difficulty back down to normal until I'm ready to download 9gbs of hitbox data (the torrent's not being seeded ATM BTW...)? Or quit playing as Cammy who, from what I've read, has a poor time overcoming blocks and grabs?

I'm really frustrated, and I'm ashamed to say this is always the point where I tend to quit fighting games - when it stops being about the characters wailing on each other and it becomes about learning how to exploit counter-intuitive obscurities in the game engine as consistently as possible. So please, if anyone has some simple explanations about dealing with these issues - or just some words of morale support - I'd certainly appreciate them before I write off another game as "a waste of cash".

Comments

  • BERSERKERRRBERSERKERRR mathemagician Joined: Posts: 80
    I'm sorry I won't have time to give a more lengthy response at the moment, but I do think you should drop some effort into obtaining some theoretical knowledge. It's what I did when I started, when I didn't understand *why* I got hit by something, I started searching around until I found a resource that explained it. But also, you shouldn't really use the computer for practicing stuff other than being able to do special moves at will.

    All of your frustration comes from a lack of knowledge and understanding of what's happening. For instance, with the ultras. Most ultras have invincibility frames on their startup. If you do yours, and then they do theirs, their invincibility frames will probably (depending on the ultra, it's not universal) expire after yours and that's why you get hit. Also, charge moves generally require 55f of charge. (SF is in 60 frames, so almost 1 sec.)



    Here's a video I found on charging with Guile that might help. I would recommend you look up something like VesperArcade's street fighter guide on YouTube. Pretty sure it'll cover most of the areas you're struggling with if you just make sure you digest the content.

    retsu go justin
  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,154
    lol stop playing arcade mode. The computer is stupid and has reactions before you can even let go of the button.

    If you want to win arcade mode just pick Zangief, LP SPD, LP greenhand and LP SPD on their wakeup all the way to fucking victory. It's that stupid. Stop wasting your time on it if you want to get "good" at the game.

    Go play VS against a HUMAN opponent. Then you will see how fighting games actually go.
  • Ace42Ace42 Joined: Posts: 6
    The computer is stupid and has reactions before you can even let go of the button.
    I thought this might be the case. At "Hard" is it the case that the computer is going to start exceeding realistic speed levels you might expect to find in a match? Or can "average" players still beat it without resorting to exploiting flaws in its AI? At what point does the computer start putting out moves with perfect speed / timing or maybe even starting to cheat; and thus make trying to beat the game by fighting "normally" a pointless exercise?

    I was quite enjoying playing through on normal; and ditto for normal-hard until I had to fight Seth; but I want to know if the skill-cap I am hitting is something I can realistically beat with practice or if it's just an exercise in misery and pointless self-torture.
    And I don't really want to go online vs human opponents until I have got some combos down and maybe bought an arcade stick; so aside from practising in the training room the Arcade mode is where the gameplay is for me ATM...
  • AirLancerAirLancer Just a touch of Honey Joined: Posts: 495 ✭✭✭
    You can't not exploit flaws in the AI to beat it. The CPU has perfect reactions/can't be mixed up, this is true even on lower difficulties. In order to allow humans to beat it, it's built to have holes. That said, the AI will usually react the same way in an identical situation which is the most prominent cause of it's defeat. A human player, at least one that isn't dumb, will adapt as you play and won't fall for things like not blocking an Ultra on wakeup.

    Basically, learning to beat the CPU is worthless if you try to take the lessons learned into beating a human. The only thing the CPU is good for is practicing your hit-confirms / reactions.

    Also, you don't need a stick to play. Heck, at your level even combos aren't really necessary, as long as you space well with your pokes. For beginners, 2-in-1s are good enough and proper spacing is enough. Hell, I could never do Guile's c.LP c.MP link consistently, yet before I stopped really playing SSF4 I got to nearly 2800 PP using that character exclusively. (And remember, don't worry about the points. They're just there to make people feel better about themselves.)
    KOF XIII: Kula/Iori/Kim
    SteamID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/WFF-AirLancer
    If you're in the NYC area and want to play some KOF XIII, hit me up!
  • hellbox9hellbox9 Joined: Posts: 302
    Yo! Welcome to fighting games, I hope you're having fun, if you get the street fighter infection like so many of us have, get ready for years of practice, learning, joyful frustration, and hopefully victory.

    I copied and pasted the below from another similar post, check it out if you'd like. Also, the above posters are correct in saying playing the cpu is kinda worthless, beyond taking your character out for a spin.

    I wrote a small guide for absolute beginners to give them hopefully a somewhat logical path of things they need to learn to grow as a player, and how they can start to apply them, check it out below:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gBwRN5iD8eZgujJ1nr99DYto4IPfldisfgVGN3fkksc/edit?usp=sharing

    As far as learning stuff, super quick things to keep in mind:
    1. spend 30 min a day on raw execution - practice your special motions in training mode 20-30 times each side, as well as a punish combo and hit confirm. until you can get your special moves to come out command, you will not be successful.
    2. learn best ranges of your normal moves, and work on safe attacks (moves that don't leave you open to counter attack, like a wiffed uppercut or super slow sweep.
    3. Learn your anti-air and use it.

    You work on those at first and you'll be surprised at how many wins you can start racking up.

    Good luck! As long as you are willing to be teachable, people here will be willing to help!
  • Ace42Ace42 Joined: Posts: 6
    Just won a Madcatz stick eBay auction, so will be concentrating on improving my game when that gets here and I have some more free time to concentrate on SF4.
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