Street Fighter x Tekken v2013 FRAMEDATA (incl. DLC Chars)

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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    Yeah I'll do the recovery for moves that were mentioned in that way after everything is done. Not a high priority since the recovery isn't very important to begin with, and is almost off for all chars by 1 frame anyway.

    That you can't cancel it into itself should be clear. Neither can you cancel sway into sway ^^

    Added SM,EX,SA,CA to Dragon Rush.

    Fixed Typo for move name. Will test Trip Block adv later and see when the cancel occurs for c.hk.

    What is "BC"?

    @Street11
    I do it via jumping as well, but I rather see when the first jump frame occurs instead of when they land. I'll do that later as well to give you feedback.


    -I'll also add a note about Zonk charge levels. I dunno if it's worth to have 2 additional entries for it tho. Is the block advantage different?
    -Blanka f.mp will be adjusted since it has a chargeable version that acts differently.
    -Lastly, Lars is on the agenda.
    我道
  • Dr. GrammarDr. Grammar Fighting Game Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭
    BC is boost combo. LA is cross rush.
    #SFxT @ EFNet - It's better than SRK
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,846
    BC is boost combo. LA is cross rush.

    LA = Launcher

    49% Motherf**ker, 51% Son of a B*tch.....
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    Okay I added all the Hwo cancels, and also Stance cancel note (same for Sway).

    EX Sky Rocket has 5f start up (-1)

    c.hk can be canceled after the 25th frame (26th is first start up of the special\super). You don't seem to can cancel it during its active frame. Looks odd as hell too.

    b+LK is 0 on block.

    Added Blanka Rock Crusher Charge Note. The move is exactly the same frame wise, it just hits M for a 25F start up.

    Added Zonk note. will probably test Zonk later tonight and see how the charge levels are different frame wise.

    I tested Ruffians again and was able to confirm the start ups. (turbo function ftw).

    @Street11
    Very bad news. F.mp being 0 on block is true and wrong at the same time. It IS 0 on block, but ONLY against Paul (+others?). Against Cody, Zangief and Cammy, it's +1 tho! (only tested it against those). I don't know what causes this, if Paul is special, or if he is the only one, or if the 3 I tested are special in some way. If Paul is special, that means I can basically check EVERY DLC frame data AGAIN, since I always used Paul as dummy. I spot checked a few other normals, and they do seem right, so it might be a unique case with f.mp... or maybe not. I dunno. Please reaffirm this, I'm doubting my sanity... GOD I HATE THIS GAME >_>
    fuck-this-shit-.jpg
    我道
  • Dr. GrammarDr. Grammar Fighting Game Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭
    zUkUu wrote: »
    c.hk can be canceled after the 25th frame (26th is first start up of the special\super). You don't seem to can cancel it during its active frame. Looks odd as hell too.

    Are you counting the hitstop frames (12 frames I believe)? Since it makes a blockstring with LK Hunting Hawk, I figured the cancel must be around 7 frames after the hit connects (frame 14).
    #SFxT @ EFNet - It's better than SRK
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    zUkUu wrote: »
    c.hk can be canceled after the 25th frame (26th is first start up of the special\super). You don't seem to can cancel it during its active frame. Looks odd as hell too.

    Are you counting the hitstop frames (12 frames I believe)? Since it makes a blockstring with LK Hunting Hawk, I figured the cancel must be around 7 frames after the hit connects (frame 14).
    I counted from button press to cancel. So subtract from that the start up etc. He does pull his leg back almost all the way before the cancel occurs. so i think you cancel part of the recovery.
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    zUkUu wrote: »
    @Street11
    Very bad news. F.mp being 0 on block is true and wrong at the same time. It IS 0 on block, but ONLY against Paul (+others?). Against Cody, Zangief and Cammy, it's +1 tho! (only tested it against those). I don't know what causes this, if Paul is special, or if he is the only one, or if the 3 I tested are special in some way. If Paul is special, that means I can basically check EVERY DLC frame data AGAIN, since I always used Paul as dummy. I spot checked a few other normals, and they do seem right, so it might be a unique case with f.mp... or maybe not. I dunno. Please reaffirm this, I'm doubting my sanity... GOD I HATE THIS GAME >_>

    Never tried with Paul (my dummy is Cody/Ryu/Lei), so I tried.

    I got mindfucked even more. Against STANDING Paul, it indeed is 0 on block like you said. Well, on crouching Paul, it turns out that it is +1 on block. I was about to call GG, but after looking at the crouch blocking Paul, I think standing Paul is indeed the special case. I have zero idea why.

    To make you even more confused: The thing is, the jump height difference between Paul and Cody after stand blocking f+MP (even) is actually different from Paul and Cody jumping at the same time from neutral (even). The jump height difference after crouch blocking f+MP(+1), is the same as Paul and Cody jumping at the same time from neutral (even).


    At least for Cody frame data, the ones that I didn't point out as errors are what I confirmed with Ryu/Lei/Cody (didn't do specials, but for normals). I think it should mostly be fine.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    THANK GOD IM NOT INSANE!

    Was this in 1.06 also the case? That is the second bug already with paul. what did they do?

    We also need to know if f.mp is the only move with that property AND if paul is the only character where that occurs.

    Does that means I really have to redo all the frame data? ._. I really don't want to... If you check the frames anyway, I think I'll just redo the errors you find. Will take a look at knife s.lp again too. Gonna switch my dummy to cody for the future, since he has very iconic 2nd and 3rd jump frames, or ryu? I dunno :< /crisis?

    Post edited by zUkUu on
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Not sure about 1.06 tbh.

    f+MP is not the only one. Cody's Knife cr.HP is +7 on hit against Paul, while it is +6 on hit against Lei and Cody according to 1hit-jump method. However, Knife cr.HP -> Sweep combos on all three, suggesting it is +7 on hit, period. But it's not, and sweep indeed has 7f start-up.

    I'll check the frames with more standard characters (Ryu, Ken and the testing character itself). We can talk about Paul after we're done.

    And don't forget cr.LP!


    EDIT:
    LP Bad Stone is +5 on block (LP Bad Stone -> cr.MP is a true blockstring on Cody and Ryu)
    MP Bad Stone is +3 on block
    HP Bad Stone is +1 on block

    Note: MP Bad Stone is +6 on hit yet can combo into sweep
    HP Bad Stone is +4 on hit yet can combo into cr.MP

    I am starting to think that the 1hit-jump method might not be the way to measure frame advantage in this game. Something is wrong here. It seems okay when measuring normals, but when it comes to unique attacks and specials, it is off by 1f in some occasions.
    Post edited by street11 on
    XBL: street121
    PSN: street121 (Can), hoop121 (U)
    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    street11 wrote: »
    Not sure about 1.06 tbh.

    f+MP is not the only one. Cody's Knife cr.HP is +7 on hit against Paul, while it is +6 on hit against Lei and Cody according to 1hit-jump method. However, Knife cr.HP -> Sweep combos on all three, suggesting it is +7 on hit, period. But it's not, and sweep indeed has 7f start-up.

    I'll check the frames with more standard characters (Ryu, Ken and the testing character itself). We can talk about Paul after we're done.

    And don't forget cr.LP!


    EDIT:
    LP Bad Stone is +5 on block (LP Bad Stone -> cr.MP is a true blockstring on Cody and Ryu)
    MP Bad Stone is +3 on block
    HP Bad Stone is +1 on block

    Note: MP Bad Stone is +6 on hit yet can combo into sweep
    HP Bad Stone is +4 on hit yet can combo into cr.MP

    I am starting to think that the 1hit-jump method might not be the way to measure frame advantage in this game. Something is wrong here. It seems okay when measuring normals, but when it comes to unique attacks and specials, it is off by 1f in some occasions.
    Okay, I've re-recoreded the errors you've found again, but this time against Cody.

    Knife s.lp => 0 on block. (-1 on Paul)
    Knife c.lp => -2 on block (-3 on Paul)
    c.lp => +1 (0 on Paul)
    LP Bad Stone => +5 on Block (+4 on Paul) [it's +9 on hit btw]
    MP Bad Stone => +3 on Block (+2 on Paul)
    HP Bad Stone => +1 on Block (0 on Paul)
    EX Bad Stone => +8 on Block (+7 on Paul)

    It seems I will have to redo ALL WORK AGAIN, at least on block, since it seems it doesn't affect hit stun.

    @Knife c.hp. It's +6 video wise, but you can indeed combo 7F moves afterwards (Knife s.mp when you have the dummy walking forward into you in the corner). WTF IS GOING ON WITH THE GAME?

    Edit: I just comboed his 9F Cross Art after LP Bad Stone, however, when I recorded LP Bad Stone AGAIN, it's +8 frame wise suddenly?! O_O
    Post edited by zUkUu on
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  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    There is one more thing interesting about that Knife cr.HP. This is the one that led me to think that 1hit-jump might not be completely reliable.

    If you record the dummy with Knife cr.HP -> Knife cr.MP (make sure it combos), change the option to Replay then block dummy's Knife cr.HP, Knife cr.MP CHs moves with 7f start-up and trades with ones with 6f start-up if you do it frame perfect.

    Now, if you record the dummy with Knife cr.HP -> whiff normal jump -> Knife cr.MP on land sequence, put it on Replay, block Knife cr.HP then whiff normal jump, Knife cr.MP trades with moves with 7f start-up if you do it upon landing.

    Of course, the characters' jump frames is the same, so there's no frame difference made with the jump.

    Then again, I myself posted an idea before since this would be a somewhat reasonable way to explain the situation:
    Also, it seems like you can "cancel" the last recovery frame of normals such as Knife st.HP and Knife cr.HP with another move other than jump/dash. This is the only possibility I can think of that would explain Knife cr.HP being +6 on hit and being possible to link into cr.MK/sweep/Knife cr.MP. I know some of Lei's stance normals do this, so it's nothing quite new.

    This never happens to normals (I consider stance normals and knife normals as "unique attacks"), but sometimes happens to command normals and specials.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    PSN: street121 (Can), hoop121 (U)
    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    street11 wrote: »
    There is one more thing interesting about that Knife cr.HP. This is the one that led me to think that 1hit-jump might not be completely reliable.

    If you record the dummy with Knife cr.HP -> Knife cr.MP (make sure it combos), change the option to Replay then block dummy's Knife cr.HP, Knife cr.MP CHs moves with 7f start-up and trades with ones with 6f start-up if you do it frame perfect.

    Now, if you record the dummy with Knife cr.HP -> whiff normal jump -> Knife cr.MP on land sequence, put it on Replay, block Knife cr.HP then whiff normal jump, Knife cr.MP trades with moves with 7f start-up if you do it upon landing.

    Of course, the characters' jump frames is the same, so there's no frame difference made with the jump.

    Then again, I myself posted an idea before since this would be a somewhat reasonable way to explain the situation:
    Also, it seems like you can "cancel" the last recovery frame of normals such as Knife st.HP and Knife cr.HP with another move other than jump/dash. This is the only possibility I can think of that would explain Knife cr.HP being +6 on hit and being possible to link into cr.MK/sweep/Knife cr.MP. I know some of Lei's stance normals do this, so it's nothing quite new.

    This never happens to normals (I consider stance normals and knife normals as "unique attacks"), but sometimes happens to command normals and specials.
    I actually came to the same conclusion. It would seem odd that it has different hitstuns, so I'd also say it's rather a recovery thing and specific to knife c.hp. Since it seems seems Lei has the same ability, I'd say THAT case is closed. In 1.06, how is the start up of knife s.mp, and hit adv of knife c.hp, since that was one of his Knife bnbs.

    I'm currently recording f.mp against the whole cast to see if there is another one like Paul. Took a break just now to rant about the new character limit of posts tho.

    Also 2, do you want to add your Lei data onto the online wiki? :p I'm sacred shitless when I see how many moves he has.
    我道
  • gilleygilley 3D Aminator Joined: Posts: 939
    street11 wrote: »
    zUkUu wrote: »
    snip
    Like I said before (I think in the Paul section), there seems to be 2 reversal timings, and the 2nd one is actually 1f slower than the 1st one. I swear I can punish a certain move with a reversal and sometimes I cannot punish the same move with the same reversal within the same range.

    Yeah, I can confirm this annoying feature in SFxT. I found this problem when the game was first released and I was trying to confirm frame data from the strategy guide.
    It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. --Mark Twain
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    zUkUu wrote: »
    snip

    Actually I'm only 80% sure on Lei one.

    From what I tested, Cody's frame data in 1.06 was the same with Knife st.MP, cr.MP and cr.HP. Knife cr.HP +6 on hit, Knife st.MP, Knife cr.MP, cr.MK, cr.HK all being 7f start-up and those 4 linkable after Knife cr.HP hit.


    About Lei data, if I'm reliable enough, sure :)
    We can copy/paste any time we want so I'll concentrate on testing other characters for now.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    gilley wrote: »
    street11 wrote: »
    zUkUu wrote: »
    snip
    Like I said before (I think in the Paul section), there seems to be 2 reversal timings, and the 2nd one is actually 1f slower than the 1st one. I swear I can punish a certain move with a reversal and sometimes I cannot punish the same move with the same reversal within the same range.

    Yeah, I can confirm this annoying feature in SFxT. I found this problem when the game was first released and I was trying to confirm frame data from the strategy guide.

    I found that too in vanilla. I have not been able to see what causes this either tho.
    street11 wrote: »
    zUkUu wrote: »
    snip

    Actually I'm only 80% sure on Lei one.

    From what I tested, Cody's frame data in 1.06 was the same with Knife st.MP, cr.MP and cr.HP. Knife cr.HP +6 on hit, Knife st.MP, Knife cr.MP, cr.MK, cr.HK all being 7f start-up and those 4 linkable after Knife cr.HP hit.


    About Lei data, if I'm reliable enough, sure :)
    We can copy/paste any time we want so I'll concentrate on testing other characters for now.
    80% sure for now is better than nothing. You can write that it's a work in progress or something. And I would have all the moves I have to check, including correct damage values, hit level, notes etc already - so that would save a lot of time when I go over all of them again. :p

    I'm finished with half the cast for Cody's f.mp - it's +1 against all so far.
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I just finished testing Cody. I did not test jump normals (I trust you on this), and aside from those '1 additional frame' moves, it seems to be fine. I'll move onto Blanka next.

    BTW, Knife Throw -> Cross Art is a true blockstring. I'm not sure whether the last frame of Knife Throw is cancellable or it is +9 on block. Oh and when I was mentioning "Lei one", I was talking about the last frame cancellability, not the frame data. I'll move and organize Lei's frame data tmrw or something.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    street11 wrote: »
    I just finished testing Cody. I did not test jump normals (I trust you on this), and aside from those '1 additional frame' moves, it seems to be fine. I'll move onto Blanka next.

    BTW, Knife Throw -> Cross Art is a true blockstring. I'm not sure whether the last frame of Knife Throw is cancellable or it is +9 on block. Oh and when I was mentioning "Lei one", I was talking about the last frame cancellability, not the frame data. I'll move and organize Lei's frame data tmrw or something.

    I only check the start up on jump normals, since they seem to be universal I copy and paste the advantage. All characters seem to have the same hit/block stun for each strength, at least when looking through the data. It doesn't matter much anyway imo.

    If knife throw has the same ability, Bad Stone might have it as well, since I can combo his CA after LP stone sometimes. (from close range)

    Ah, than it's even more awesome! :D edit:<= WTF IS THAT FUGLY THING?! O_O

    Send me a request at the online doc (and pm me your email so I know it's you).
    Post edited by zUkUu on
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    Okay, I've finished testing Cody's f.mp against THE WHOLE CAST. It's +1 against ALL but Paul. So he IS unique.

    Out of the WHOLE cast I had to pick HIM as dummy. >_>
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  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Don't forget that it's still +1 on CROUCHING block with Paul ;)

    Blanka:
    - close st.LP is -2 on block (cannot get punished by reversal SRK on block for example)
    - far st.LP is -1 on block (cannot get punished by reversal Ken Super on block)
    - LP Electric has 6f start-up
    - MP Electric has 8f start-up
    - HP Electric has 11f start-up
    - EX Electric has 5f start-up
    - LP/MP/HP Horizontal Roll have 6f start-up
    - Rock Crusher's fastest start-up is 4f

    My method cannot test Backstep Roll, Vertical Roll and Supers :(

    Will move on to Alisa tmrw, after testing frame advantage on block for Electric.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 6,338 ✭✭✭✭✭
    street11 wrote: »
    snip

    Level 1 = 60F level 2 = 90F level 3 = 120F
    EX Zonk = 60F

    6HK = 4JP according to the way you are counting JP. (Technically all of your stuff is 1JP higher than it should be for how the game counts JP because I think you are counting moves you can hit a floating opponent twice with as 2JP when actually it should be 1JP since they start at 0JP. Then first hit moves it to 1Juggle count, then 2nd hit still connects moving it to 2juggle count which means that only moves with 2JP or more can hit.) It's a matter of semantics and your end result is correct, just a technicality really.

  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    thanks for the charge time. added it.
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  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Eternal wrote: »
    Level 1 = 60F level 2 = 90F level 3 = 120F
    EX Zonk = 60F

    6HK = 4JP according to the way you are counting JP. (Technically all of your stuff is 1JP higher than it should be for how the game counts JP because I think you are counting moves you can hit a floating opponent twice with as 2JP when actually it should be 1JP since they start at 0JP. Then first hit moves it to 1Juggle count, then 2nd hit still connects moving it to 2juggle count which means that only moves with 2JP or more can hit.) It's a matter of semantics and your end result is correct, just a technicality really.

    TYVM for the charge times.

    Well, I had to think about how to numeralize juggle potential, then I just decided to follow Brady Guide's way of doing it (it considers Jin's cr.MP to have JP of 3 and cr.HP to have JP of 4).
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • GemakaiGemakai HadouKen what Others HadouKan't Joined: Posts: 825 ✭✭
    Hey - if you need help building out Elena's data, I'd be happy to help. I have some basic knowledge from the log notes and wouldn't mind learning how to get more specific information.
    BBCS:EX: Hakumen, Noel, Bang, Hazama | USF4: Vega, Makoto, Elena, Yun, Sakura | UMvC3: Felicia/Doom/Strider
    SFxT: Elena, Paul, Dudley, Vega, Asuka, Law, Julia, Bryan | P4A: Naoto, Aigis, Kanji, Shadow Labrys
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    street11 wrote: »
    Don't forget that it's still +1 on CROUCHING block with Paul ;)

    Blanka:
    - close st.LP is -2 on block (cannot get punished by reversal SRK on block for example)
    - far st.LP is -1 on block (cannot get punished by reversal Ken Super on block)
    - LP Electric has 6f start-up
    - MP Electric has 8f start-up
    - HP Electric has 11f start-up
    - EX Electric has 5f start-up
    - LP/MP/HP Horizontal Roll have 6f start-up
    - Rock Crusher's fastest start-up is 4f

    My method cannot test Backstep Roll, Vertical Roll and Supers :(

    Will move on to Alisa tmrw, after testing frame advantage on block for Electric.

    s.lp -1 (-2 on Paul)
    cl.lp -2 (-3 on Paul)

    Are you sure about Elec? I've tested it again and again in various circumstances (jump => elec, df.hp (block) => elec, c.lp xx elec, cl.hp xx elec, coward crouch xx elec, hop => elec) and it was always 7,9,12,6.

    Same for Rolling Attack, Frame 6 and 7 look identical (and he even stays in place "within cody", but the hit doesn't occur until the 7th frame counting from the input. EX 8th frame.

    The fastest I could get Rock Crusher is 6F from input to hit frame.

    Btw, Combofiend knows of the Paul Glitches now and will forward it to the dev team.
    http://www.capcom-unity.com/ask_capcom/go/thread/view/7371/29771711/gamebreaking-glitch-in-sfxt-108?sdb=1
    Post edited by zUkUu on
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  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I did normal whiff jump LP elec. It trades with Blanka's normal whiff jump cr.HK in point blank range, and gets hit out in a range pretty far. However, cr.HK does not CH LP elect even if it is far away, suggesting that the move is already active by the time I connect with cr.HK.

    I had to test MP elec and HP elec with Ryu and Lei, with subtracting Blanka's faster jump frames (subtract 2f with Ryu, subtract 1f with Lei).

    EX elec was again done with Blanka. CHs Blanka's cr.HK. I cannot remember which move I traded with, but it was probably cr.MK

    As for Horizontal Roll, I did a similar thing (point blank) with dummy doing back jump roll in the corner, and always traded with Blanka's normal whiff jump close st.MP. However, EX Roll got countered out by close st.MP.

    I did the same thing for Rock Crusher, and traded with close st.LP no matter how many times I tried, so I assumed it's 4f start-up.

    I'll try to test it again tonight to make sure.


    Off topic, but EX charge -> EX chargeable move does not CH, something that is not exclusive to Paul. (eg. Sagat's Tiger Knee EX charge -> EX Tiger Knee does not CH, but other EX moves do) I'm not sure whether this was intentional or not.
    Post edited by street11 on
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    street11 wrote: »
    Off topic, but EX charge -> EX chargeable move does not CH, something that is not exclusive to Paul. (eg. Sagat's Tiger Knee EX charge -> EX Tiger Knee does not CH, but other EX moves do) I'm not sure whether this was intentional or not.
    You're right lol. Never noticed (nor tried, nor seen).

    I'd appreciate if you would test that again, maybe with another of your methods, since elec is rather easy to trade with and we don't know if it has some form of invincibility or something.
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm pretty sure it has no invincibility, otherwise he wouldn't get countered out by Blanka's cr.MK with the jump-hit method. Anyways I'll test it in a minute.
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Tested.

    First, I did whiff normal jump LP Electric. Gets countered by Blanka's whiff normal jump cr.MK, trades with whiff normal jump close st.MP, and counters whiff normal jump cr.MP.

    Next, I did far st.LK hit (-1), whiff normal jump -> LP Electric with the dummy. Trades with Blanka's whiff normal jump cr.MP when the dummy is at -1.

    I'm convinced that LP Electric has 6f start-up, but the horizontal range is so small at the 1st active frame that you might not be able to hit someone who's not poking at you. Same goes with MP Electric (trades with cr.HP on just jump -> MP Electric) and HP Electric (trades with cr.HP on far st.LP hit (+3) -> whiff normal jump -> HP Electric).

    About EX Electric, I am confused now. I'm sure I was able to trade yesterday, but I just get hit out now. Invincibility is kicking in somewhere cuz I wasn't able to hit it out with anything just now. I cannot make a sure argument about this using the dummy jump method, but I can try another one; you can link CH cr.LK into EX Electric, and cr.LK is +5 on CH (can link up to cr.MK)

    I am actually going to have to say the same thing about Roll. I did the above 2 ways, and at the 1st hit it trades with close st.MP, while at the 2nd hit it trades with far st.MP and cr.MP. From further testing, I think it can basically be said that the opponent in the front will get hit at the 7th frame unless they extend their hurtbox past Blanka, similar to LP/MP Electric.

    About Rock Crusher, I fluctuated between 4f~7f (lol), then I realized that if you just do it from the ground, it indeed is 6f. However, it works really weird that if you do it straight from the jump, you sometimes get the 4f version, or get the full charge version without holding MP. My apologies for the confusion. I think it is safe to say that it's 6f start-up.
    Post edited by street11 on
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    So rock crusher can stay 6F.

    Go ahead and adjust the Roll and Elec then. No wonder I can't reproduce it, if he has a hitbox "within him" first. I did "walk into" blanka with the dummy for both attacks, but didn't hit him.
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Front page already in Eventhubs? That was a bit too early. I'm yet to go to check Ken and find out why his 4f jab that is +3 on hit can link into each other.

    I updated most of lei's data, but the thing is that I cannot check the start-ups of some moves (such as follow-ups in Razor Rush), so I left them blank.

    EDIT: Moved on to Alisa
    - cr.LP is +4 on block (cr.LP -> cr.LP is a true blockstring)
    - far/close st.LP is +3 on block
    - far st.MP is -2 on block
    - far/close st.LK is -1 on block
    - cr.LP (Destructive) is -2 on block
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    street11 wrote: »
    Front page already in Eventhubs? That was a bit too early. I'm yet to go to check Ken and find out why his 4f jab that is +3 on hit can link into each other.

    I updated most of lei's data, but the thing is that I cannot check the start-ups of some moves (such as follow-ups in Razor Rush), so I left them blank.

    EDIT: Moved on to Alisa
    - cr.LP is +4 on block (cr.LP -> cr.LP is a true blockstring)
    - far/close st.LP is +3 on block
    If that's the only stuff from Alisa, I'm glad. Will test that now again.

    Lars is finished btw, and ready to be proof tested by you. :p

    Maybe you can rapid fire his lp?

    Well Lei can wait till we have finished the other characters. I fear him along with Christie the most. :p

    Edit:
    Confirmed and changed s.lp and c.lp. Also her Chainsaw c.lp is -2 (-3 on Paul). only tested chainsaw s.lp further, which was correct.


    Post edited by zUkUu on
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    Oh haha. You changed destructive cr.LP before I added it in my post :)

    It would be a work in progress. Alisa is taking a bit longer than I thought in testing stuff, especially the chainsaws. Luckily all the normals are confirmed save the ones I pointed out in my post above.

    You CAN rapid fire Ken's cr.LP, but he cannot cancel into special in that case. I was specifically able to do cr.LP -> cr.LP xx SRK cancel.
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    street11 wrote: »
    Oh haha. You changed destructive cr.LP before I added it in my post :)

    It would be a work in progress. Alisa is taking a bit longer than I thought in testing stuff, especially the chainsaws. Luckily all the normals are confirmed save the ones I pointed out in my post above.

    You CAN rapid fire Ken's cr.LP, but he cannot cancel into special in that case. I was specifically able to do cr.LP -> cr.LP xx SRK cancel.
    Confirmed lk and mp.

    I recorded ken's LP (far. cl. c.) on hit and block, and the data seems correct. So that might be another puzzle to solve. Maybe you can chain/cancel them in the last recovery frame and they become cancelable that way (like we had with knife c.hp)?
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    That certainly is a possibility. I'm confirming Ken's data first thing after DLC characters are done.

    EDIT: Done testing Alisa. Everything else seems to be fine.

    Lars
    - close LP is 6 on hit, 2 on block
    - Avalanche Stomp 28f start-up
    (Avalanche Stomp actually becomes active before you can hit a standing dummy, so if you want to check the fastest start-up you have to use it against jumping dummy. I believe this would change frame advantage against tall characters such as Hugo)
    - Zeus has 14f start-up

    I think this is it for Lars. Testing got much easier as your dummy changed to someone else from Paul :D
    Post edited by street11 on
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 6,338 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Found the culprit causing the Paul blockstun issue. It was my 2nd guess, they messed up paul's guard animation timing. While they moved "Damage" scripts into a common file, "Guard" scripts are still stored inside each individual characters .bac / .bcm files.

    Here is what the script header for all other characters (at least the half dozen I checked) looks like (this example is taken from Ken)

    <Script Name="GUARD_ML" Offset="0x83f4L" HitboxStart="-0x1" HitboxEnd="0xf" IASA="0x10" End="0x11" _Unk4="0x60" XOffset="0.0" ScriptFlags="0x0" EndsOn_="0x0" Loop_="0x0">

    This is what the script header for Paul's Guard_ML

    <Script Name="GUARD_ML" Offset="0x85d0L" HitboxStart="-0x1" HitboxEnd="0x11" IASA="-0x1" End="0x11" _Unk4="0x60" XOffset="0.0" ScriptFlags="0x0" EndsOn_="0x0" Loop_="0x0">

    If you notice they are basically identical other than the offset (not important AFAIK) and the "IASA" value which judging by what I know from SF4 modding IASA stands for "Interrupt As Soon As" (in the SF4 mod tool it is called "Interrupt at Frame") and the "hitbox end" value is different. I'm not sure what the Hitbox End does as there is no actual hitbox for the move and we've yet to figure out what that value does in SF4. However the interrupt as soon as value being -1 instead of 10 likely is the reason.

    Likewise the only applies to Pauls Guard_ML, Guard_MM, not any of his other guard scripts. That is why for instance, Cody's close s.LP and close s.MP have 1F less blockstun but his close s.HP has the same blockstun on paul as everyone else.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Eternal wrote: »
    Found the culprit causing the Paul blockstun issue. It was my 2nd guess, they messed up paul's guard animation timing. While they moved "Damage" scripts into a common file, "Guard" scripts are still stored inside each individual characters .bac / .bcm files.

    Here is what the script header for all other characters (at least the half dozen I checked) looks like (this example is taken from Ken)

    <Script Name="GUARD_ML" Offset="0x83f4L" HitboxStart="-0x1" HitboxEnd="0xf" IASA="0x10" End="0x11" _Unk4="0x60" XOffset="0.0" ScriptFlags="0x0" EndsOn_="0x0" Loop_="0x0">

    This is what the script header for Paul's Guard_ML

    <Script Name="GUARD_ML" Offset="0x85d0L" HitboxStart="-0x1" HitboxEnd="0x11" IASA="-0x1" End="0x11" _Unk4="0x60" XOffset="0.0" ScriptFlags="0x0" EndsOn_="0x0" Loop_="0x0">

    If you notice they are basically identical other than the offset (not important AFAIK) and the "IASA" value which judging by what I know from SF4 modding IASA stands for "Interrupt As Soon As" (in the SF4 mod tool it is called "Interrupt at Frame") and the "hitbox end" value is different. I'm not sure what the Hitbox End does as there is no actual hitbox for the move and we've yet to figure out what that value does in SF4. However the interrupt as soon as value being -1 instead of 10 likely is the reason.

    Likewise the only applies to Pauls Guard_ML, Guard_MM, not any of his other guard scripts. That is why for instance, Cody's close s.LP and close s.MP have 1F less blockstun but his close s.HP has the same blockstun on paul as everyone else.
    That is awesome info! Thanks for clearing that up. I assumed it had something to do with moves that hit a specific area.
    I'll forward this to the post over on unity.

    That means, that was in Vanilla also the case.

    Edit:
    Would you be able to check out why Cody's Knife c.hp links into his c.hk (and other 7F moves)? It only yields 6F hit adv. The post above also has a different setup (c.lp, c.lp xx SRK) done by Ken, which should not be possible since c.lp has 4F start up but only has 3F hit adv. If you skim through the posts, we have a theory, but have not confirmed it yet.
    Post edited by zUkUu on
    我道
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 6,338 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ken's c.LP is chain cancelable. If you look at Ryu in SF4 you'll see that his c.LK is only +2F on hit and has a 4F start up but can combo into itself.

    c.HP with knife has more stun when the move hits than when it is blocked. The hitstun for on hit is listed as 0x14 while for block it is 0x12 (not sure if this is a 1 to 1 ratio of frames but its IS different.)



  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    Eternal wrote: »
    Ken's c.LP is chain cancelable. If you look at Ryu in SF4 you'll see that his c.LK is only +2F on hit and has a 4F start up but can combo into itself.

    c.HP with knife has more stun when the move hits than when it is blocked. The hitstun for on hit is listed as 0x14 while for block it is 0x12 (not sure if this is a 1 to 1 ratio of frames but its IS different.)


    I meant hit adv.^^ it yields 6F hit adv but you can combo into 7F c.hk.
    And yeah, it's rapid cancelable, but then you couldn't cancel the 2nd c.lp by srk.
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Thanks to Eternal's charge time data, I was successfully able to add Cody's upper body invincible frames in google doc. I posted Lars changes above, so if you could test those it would be great.

    Also, I was wondering if you could test Cody's Knife cr.HP using recording & frame counting:
    1. Knife cr.HP -> jump
    2. Knife cr.HP -> any one of Knife cr.MP/cr.MK/cr.HK (it must combo)

    Recording these two, then comparing the frames of Knife cr.HP would let us verify the theory.

    I wouldn't be able to confirm anything before Monday, so b4 I have to go I'll delve into Sakura's frame data... a bit.
    Post edited by street11 on
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    street11 said:
    That certainly is a possibility. I'm confirming Ken's data first thing after DLC characters are done.

    EDIT: Done testing Alisa. Everything else seems to be fine.

    Lars
    - close LP is 6 on hit, 2 on block
    - Avalanche Stomp 28f start-up
    (Avalanche Stomp actually becomes active before you can hit a standing dummy, so if you want to check the fastest start-up you have to use it against jumping dummy. I believe this would change frame advantage against tall characters such as Hugo)
    - Zeus has 14f start-up

    I think this is it for Lars. Testing got much easier as your dummy changed to someone else from Paul :D
    Tested cl.lp again and I can only verify 5/1 again (vs Cody and Jin). Don't tell me there is another glitch...

    I tested Avalanche Stomp against air borne for the start up. (for block\hit adv agaisnt standing obviously) and done it again, his leg goes right through the opponent on frame 28 and 29 and doesn't hit until frame 30. Hits standing Cody on frame 31 and crouching Cody on frame 32. I'll add this info to the doc tho.

    Mhh raw I got 13F start up yesterday, via reversal 14F this time around for Zeus. or maybe I made an error yesterday. Anyway, changed it.

    Btw, are you able to cancel HP Dynamic Entry into Silent Entry? Haven't been able to pull it off yet. :3

    Leave my Paul alone :< /sadpanda I'm using Cody now as dummy.
    street11 said:
    Thanks to Eternal's charge time data, I was successfully able to add Cody's upper body invincible frames in google doc. I posted Lars changes above, so if you could test those it would be great.

    Also, I was wondering if you could test Cody's Knife cr.HP using recording & frame counting:
    1. Knife cr.HP -> jump
    2. Knife cr.HP -> any one of Knife cr.MP/cr.MK/cr.HK (it must combo)

    Recording these two, then comparing the frames of Knife cr.HP would let us verify the theory.

    I wouldn't be able to confirm anything before Monday, so b4 I have to go I'll delve into Sakura's frame data... a bit.
    Good stuff. Can you find out which of the reversals for the characters have invulnerabillity as well? Mainly for the SRK like moves. Doesn't need to be frame specific, just if it has any.

    I actually recorded both, but forgot that I did and deleted the video. gonna record it again. brb


    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    @zUkUu

    Actually, I didn't have much time and tested cl.st.LP's frame advantage using link method instead of hit-jump. I was able to link cl.st.LP into cl.st.MP, which has 6f start-up. I confirmed the link on Lars and Ryu. This link was possible in Vanilla as well.

    Hmm. It's certainly odd for Avalanche Stomp. I whiffed a lot against empty jumps due to the jump's lower body invincibility, but I was able to hit the dummy at an earlier frame when the dummy did whiff normal jump.

    About HP Dynamic Entry, it wasn't cancellable into Silent Entry in vanilla, and in 2013, it is HK Silent Entry that is able to cancel into another Silent Entry, not Dynamic Entry. So no, you cannot cancel into Silent Entry from Dynamic. You can mash HK Silent Entry tho to cancel into another one, then again, and again, and again.


    I'll check the invincibility on Monday (I only have pre-2013 version b4 then)
    Post edited by street11 on
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    PSN: street121 (Can), hoop121 (U)
    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭

    street11 said:
    @zUkUu

    Actually, I didn't have much time and tested cl.st.LP's frame advantage using link method instead of hit-jump. I was able to link cl.st.LP into cl.st.MP, which has 6f start-up. I confirmed the link on Lars and Ryu. This link was possible in Vanilla as well.

    Hmm. It's certainly odd for Avalanche Stomp. I whiffed a lot against empty jumps due to the jump's lower body invincibility, but I was able to hit the dummy at an earlier frame when the dummy did whiff normal jump.

    About HP Dynamic Entry, it wasn't cancellable into Silent Entry in vanilla, and in 2013, it is HK Silent Entry that is able to cancel into another Silent Entry, not Dynamic Entry. So no, you cannot cancel into Silent Entry from Dynamic. You can mash HK Silent Entry tho to cancel into another one, then again, and again, and again.


    I'll check the invincibility on Monday (I only have pre-2013 version b4 then)
    Lol then I have that for the wrong move xD gotta fix it.

    I was able to do cl.lp, c.mp xx silent entry as well. might be another case of this link-cancel (is that an appropriate name?)

    I'll record both right away.

    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for confirmation. You checked it twice, so it must be +5 on hit, and you were able to verify that cl.st.MP was linkable after.
    I so hate this. It screwed me up with Lei frame data in the first place, and if it wasn't for how Lei's stance normal worked, I wouldn't have been able to realize it in the first place. I wonder what is the problem to begin with.
    XBL: street121
    PSN: street121 (Can), hoop121 (U)
    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    street11 said:
    Thanks for confirmation. You checked it twice, so it must be +5 on hit, and you were able to verify that cl.st.MP was linkable after.
    I so hate this. It screwed me up with Lei frame data in the first place, and if it wasn't for how Lei's stance normal worked, I wouldn't have been able to realize it in the first place. I wonder what is the problem to begin with.
    Okay I have both right next to each other (I swear Premiere is a mess, I want my Sony Vegas back :<).
    I can't make out a difference. The only difference I can see is some hit effects, but the hit frames off the dummies look EXACTLY identical. first jump frame and first c.hk start up frame are on the same frame, meaning link-canceling is NOT the case. On the 7th frame of hit advantage, cody has his first jumping frame where as when comboing into c.hk cody gets hit.

    Just for you, I forward framewise.


    I might do a full video about it (showing that c.hk has 7F start up, knife yields +6 etc)


    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    TYVM for testing.

    I saw something.

    In between 0:46 and 0:47, there is a frame where only Cody on the left side turns his body by just a bit, while Cody on the right side stays idle. This is the frame before the right side Cody goes into pre-jump frames. Do you think this is frame 1 of his sweep?
    I'm saying this because I remember that back in SSF4 hitbox videos, the dummy would flinch at the 5th frame against a move that starts up in 4f. Therefore, if the engine is similar enough, the Cody in blue/white suit would flinch at the 8th frame against cr.HK. If you do not include the "slight turn" frame, Cody flinches at exactly the 7th frame. Of course, there's no guarantee that it works the same way in this game.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    PSN: street121 (Can), hoop121 (U)
    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    street11 said:
    TYVM for testing.

    I saw something.

    In between 0:46 and 0:47, there is a frame where only Cody on the left side turns his body by just a bit, while Cody on the right side stays idle. This is the frame before the right side Cody goes into pre-jump frames. Do you think this is frame 1 of his sweep?
    I'm saying this because I remember that back in SSF4 hitbox videos, the dummy would flinch at the 5th frame against a move that starts up in 4f. Therefore, if the engine is similar enough, the Cody in blue/white suit would flinch at the 8th frame against cr.HK. If you do not include the "slight turn" frame, Cody flinches at exactly the 7th frame. Of course, there's no guarantee that it works the same way in this game.
    Holy shit batman, you're right, he DOES flinch. But that would make it 8F start up if that was really his 1st frame. You have sometimes an additional frame of animation that appears before the input is actually relevant to the game. Let's say you input "between frames", then you have already a frame of animation of the move, but the input appears the frame afterwards on the screen, but THEN starts the actual start up, regardless of the additional frame of animation. That's why I'm sometimes confused with reversal timing specials when watching them via recording, since the input is actually way earlier (buffered), I still often have one additional frame of animation that does not belong to the start up. For EX move that's a frame where he doesn't glow for instance, or for super/cross arts the cinematic freeze occurs during that frame. E.G Raze is -9, that means the additional frame of animation occurs on the last "block stun" frame (10F before Paul recovers).

    I'm quite clueless, I'll do the same for Lars later. Maybe @Eternal has an idea.
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Well, I'll give 2 topics because I'm not sure which one you are talking about out of the two things I was mentioning:
    1. Dummy flinching; in SSF4 hitbox videos against a move with 4f start-up the hit animation (the dummy flinching) would occur at the 5th frame (1f right after the move becomes active), so if SFxT works the same way, Cody with blue/white stripe should get hit animation at 8th frame since cr.HK has 7f start-up, and the "turning" part of the bumblebee Cody in fact becomes the 1st frame of start-up if you count it frame by frame.

    2. Now about the turning part. I am not sure on this one, but we have to take into consideration that Cody on the right side wasn't doing anything when he could've gone into pre-jump frames, but the one with cr.HK flinched. I'm talking about this difference. A sure-fire way to know whether this is the 1st frame or not would be recording cr.HK on dummy record to "hold back" so that we would know which part of frame causes blocking motion. If the "flinching" part causes block motion, it means this is the 1st frame, which confirms the theory that the last frame of recovery is cancellable, if it doesn't, it means this doesn't have anything to do with cr.HK, which means things get more complicated.

    Since you did such hard work to test this, I'm not going to make any major requests, but if you WANT to do this, then feel free to:
    - Doing the same thing with cr.HP -> link, but this time with Knife cr.HP -> cr.MK and Knife cr.HP -> Knife cr.MP (both of them combos as well), then comparing the "turning" part of the bumblebee Cody with the Knife cr.HP -> cr.HK. If the motions are all different in three of them at the "turning frame", it proves our theory. If not, it most likely disapproves.

    I'll find a recording software in PC and do this if I can.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭
    street11 said:
    Well, I'll give 2 topics because I'm not sure which one you are talking about out of the two things I was mentioning:
    1. Dummy flinching; in SSF4 hitbox videos against a move with 4f start-up the hit animation (the dummy flinching) would occur at the 5th frame (1f right after the move becomes active), so if SFxT works the same way, Cody with blue/white stripe should get hit animation at 8th frame since cr.HK has 7f start-up, and the "turning" part of the bumblebee Cody in fact becomes the 1st frame of start-up if you count it frame by frame.

    2. Now about the turning part. I am not sure on this one, but we have to take into consideration that Cody on the right side wasn't doing anything when he could've gone into pre-jump frames, but the one with cr.HK flinched. I'm talking about this difference. A sure-fire way to know whether this is the 1st frame or not would be recording cr.HK on dummy record to "hold back" so that we would know which part of frame causes blocking motion. If the "flinching" part causes block motion, it means this is the 1st frame, which confirms the theory that the last frame of recovery is cancellable, if it doesn't, it means this doesn't have anything to do with cr.HK, which means things get more complicated.

    Since you did such hard work to test this, I'm not going to make any major requests, but if you WANT to do this, then feel free to:
    - Doing the same thing with cr.HP -> link, but this time with Knife cr.HP -> cr.MK and Knife cr.HP -> Knife cr.MP (both of them combos as well), then comparing the "turning" part of the bumblebee Cody with the Knife cr.HP -> cr.HK. If the motions are all different in three of them at the "turning frame", it proves our theory. If not, it most likely disapproves.

    I'll find a recording software in PC and do this if I can.
    I was speaking about bumblebee cody. didn't noticed a difference for the dummies.

    It isn't that much hard work.

    Is it move specific btw? I was trying to combo cl.lp into c.hk to no avail (didn't tried it for long tho).

    I can send you fraps if you don't know a way to get it "somewhere else" ;)
    我道
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 6,338 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    zUkUu said:
    I meant hit adv.^^ it yields 6F hit adv but you can combo into 7F c.hk.
    And yeah, it's rapid cancelable, but then you couldn't cancel the 2nd c.lp by srk.
    That would be true if rapid cancels worked the exact same way as in SF4. See the way it works is this, chain cancelable light attacks in SF4 are actually not canceling into the same move. When you chain cancel a s.LP into another s.LP in SF4 you are actually cancel into a new move called R5LP (the R stands for rapid, the 5 is neutral e.g. standing position) the R5LP is identical to the normal 5LP EXCEPT they change what you are able to cancel into from the move.

    in SFxT however, there are no "R" moves (except for Cody's s.LP with knife AFAIK) Ken is chain canceling his 2LP into his 2LP so it retains the same properties as if he linked it instead of chained it.

    I'll look into the other stuff later.

    (P.S. Something to check to see if they fixed: in 1.06 Cody's s.LP with knife does 40 damage properly, however if you rapid cancel it into itself the chained version is 30 damage BEFORE damage scaling. This doesn't apply to his c.LP with knife only s.LP)
    Post edited by Eternal on
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