Street Fighter x Tekken v2013 FRAMEDATA (incl. DLC Chars)

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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭

    Eternal said:
    zUkUu said:
    I meant hit adv.^^ it yields 6F hit adv but you can combo into 7F c.hk.
    And yeah, it's rapid cancelable, but then you couldn't cancel the 2nd c.lp by srk.
    That would be true if rapid cancels worked the exact same way as in SF4. See the way it works is this, chain cancelable light attacks in SF4 are actually not canceling into the same move. When you chain cancel a s.LP into another s.LP in SF4 you are actually cancel into a new move called R5LP (the R stands for rapid, the 5 is neutral e.g. standing position) the R5LP is identical to the normal 5LP EXCEPT they change what you are able to cancel into from the move.

    in SFxT however, there are no "R" moves (except for Cody's s.LP with knife AFAIK) Ken is chain canceling his 2LP into his 2LP so it retains the same properties as if he linked it instead of chained it.

    I'll look into the other stuff later.


    That makes sense, but if I mash the c.lp and try to mash srk into it, it doesn't cancel. only when I properly "link" it, I can do that. And what about Cody's Knife c.hp +6 hit adv => c.hk 7F start up? (see video above). Or Lars's cl.lp (+6 hitadv), c.mp (7F start up) LINKED  (I can special cancel it and the damage also is 30,60, not 30,42 like for chain combos)?

    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Yes. It is move specific for sure. I thought it didn't happen with normals, but Lars' cl.st.LP proved me wrong.

    I recorded the frames with Fraps and this is what I got (top one is cr.HK, the same one I saw in your video, middle one is cr.MK, bottom one is Knife cr.MP)

    Spoiler:
    image
    image
    image


    They're all different, giving the idea that they're all unique motions belonging to their corresponding normals. It doesn't show the key input until next frame, but I think it was always like that. Hopefully this is enough proof about what we were talking about all this time.
    Post edited by street11 on
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I think that is the extra frame of animation I spoke off. Try to reversal time EX Zonk for instance. (if it happens, doesn't all the time).

    I think Knife c.hp has to be the reason, but we don't know why exactly, since every move afterwards connect. It would be interesting to see how a 8F move reacts, if he is in blocks animation on the 7th or 8th frame, or we could try a 7F move that is done with a different timing. We could macro that on pc to have exact frame inputs.

    Btw, now I can't unsee Cody giving himself a blowjob. ._.
    Post edited by zUkUu on
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    @Eternal
    Good point, but I'm afraid that is not the case. Physically in game, I tried it more than 10 times, and when he rapid cancels into a light, you cannot cancel that into a special; just boost combos or EX special or above.

    I just tried digging through Pandora dumps again, then I found out Ken has a different name of that rapid version, called BC_2LP (probably stands for boost combo).


    @zUkUu
    I found a problem with Fraps. My computer is not the best one, so it usually doesn't keep the 60fps through the whole time (sometimes goes down to 56~59). Therefore, the program just jams in extra frames to make it 60fps. I compared 2 cr.MKs, and one of them is actually 1f longer than the other. I don't think my comp is fit for recording and checking stuff.
    I recorded close st.MP 3 times and the frames seem to be consistent, so I'll be using this.

    EDIT: Now about cr.HK taking 8 frames for hit animation to occur, I would have to use SSF4 example with Gouken proximity in those hitbox videos:
    - In SSF4, Gouken's cr.HK is, of course, 6f start-up. At the 6th frame, the move shows active frame (red rectangular bar), and at the 7th frame, hit animation occurs, and from 7th to 18th frame (so for 12 frames), Gouken does not move due to hitfreeze.
    - In SFxT, Cody's cl.st.MP is 6f start-up. At the 1st frame, the "animation" you were talking about happens. At the 7th frame, hit/block animation occurs, and from 8th to 17th frame (for 10 frames), Cody does not move due to hitfreeze/blockfreeze.
    - Assuming SFxT did not change this, we'll have to take into account that it takes an extra frame for hit animation, and that the weird animation is actually the 1st start-up frame.

    I cannot unsee it either. Dammit.

    Post edited by street11 on
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    street11 said:
    @Eternal
    Good point, but I'm afraid that is not the case. Physically in game, I tried it more than 10 times, and when he rapid cancels into a light, you cannot cancel that into a special; just boost combos or EX special or above.

    I just tried digging through Pandora dumps again, then I found out Ken has a different name of that rapid version, called BC_2LP (probably stands for boost combo).


    @zUkUu
    I found a problem with Fraps. My computer is not the best one, so it usually doesn't keep the 60fps through the whole time (sometimes goes down to 56~59). Therefore, the program just jams in extra frames to make it 60fps. I compared 2 cr.MKs, and one of them is actually 1f longer than the other. I don't think my comp is fit for recording and checking stuff.
    I recorded close st.MP 3 times and the frames seem to be consistent, so I'll be using this.
    That doesn't have to be necessarily your computer. As I said, extra frame of animations are quite often. It depends when the input appears. So that 1F longer c.mk has its input 1F afterwards right? Also, try to record half-size (but 60fps) or turn down the graphic. or use game-booster or something^^

    I think that trait might not be unique to normals tho. LP Bad Stone => Cross Art linked as well (+8 hit adv, 9F start up).

    Edit:
    Btw, what do you think of this order?
    Sakura
    Bryan
    Guy
    Jack
    Elena
    Christie
    Lei (recheck + filling out the missing stuff)

    Edit 2: Stop ninja editing your previous posts all the time! xD [okay I do it all the time as well ._.]

    That "hit" frame without "hit effect" is part of the normal c.hk animation, and I think universal to all moves. I do mean that it hits on the 8th frame of hit adv (so the 2nd frame where cody could block, or 1F later as he currently can combo into.) that has to be macroed tho.


    Post edited by zUkUu on
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013

    zUkUu said:That doesn't have to be necessarily your computer. As I said, extra frame of animations are quite often. It depends when the input appears. So that 1F longer c.mk has its input 1F afterwards right? Also, try to record half-size (but 60fps) or turn down the graphic. or use game-booster or something^^

    I think that trait might not be unique to normals tho. LP Bad Stone => Cross Art linked as well (+8 hit adv, 9F start up).


    No, there's a "frozen frame" during start-up, like the 4th start-up frame or something. One cr.MK has it, the other cr.MK doesn't, so the first one just looks like it has 1f longer start-up. I think it's just a framerate problem. I did everything I could to make it run as smooth as possible, so I've got a feeling it's just my laptop :(

    Another ninja EDIT!: I'm completely okay with any order.
    Actually, I was saying that the "hit frame" you're talking about is indeed a part of the animation. I was just saying that the frame in which the opponent who is getting hit by the move "flinches" is the 1st frame of "hitfreeze", and is, in fact, not the 1st active frame. Of course, it'll be much better if it could be tested more extensively like you said, because I can only explain this with SSF4 examples and not SFxT ones.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    street11 said:

    zUkUu said:That doesn't have to be necessarily your computer. As I said, extra frame of animations are quite often. It depends when the input appears. So that 1F longer c.mk has its input 1F afterwards right? Also, try to record half-size (but 60fps) or turn down the graphic. or use game-booster or something^^

    I think that trait might not be unique to normals tho. LP Bad Stone => Cross Art linked as well (+8 hit adv, 9F start up).


    No, there's a "frozen frame" during start-up, like the 4th start-up frame or something. One cr.MK has it, the other cr.MK doesn't, so the first one just looks like it has 1f longer start-up. I think it's just a framerate problem. I did everything I could to make it run as smooth as possible, so I've got a feeling it's just my laptop :(
    You mean you have an IDENTICAL frame? Because I see that sometimes as well. Thought it was my recording software or my hauppauge tho; but it occurs very rare to begin with.
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Yea, I have an identical frame. It happens more often when my framerate during recording drops to around 55.

    Well, I do know you're recording console version, so it might be a different problem from PC version.

    BTW, I'll try EX Zonk.

    EDIT: Okay. I found out how to take out those identical frames aka "fillings". With Fraps record, everything is a keyframe except for the ones that was simply copy pasted to make it 60fps.

    EDIT2: Zonk and EX Zonk have 17f start-up!? They CH Paul's Phoenix Smasher and trade with Ryu's MK Joudan when done from 0 frame advantage. I'm getting all kinds of weird results right now, so I'll take a break to calm myself down a lil.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    street11 said:
    Yea, I have an identical frame. It happens more often when my framerate during recording drops to around 55.

    Well, I do know you're recording console version, so it might be a different problem from PC version.

    BTW, I'll try EX Zonk.

    EDIT: Okay. I found out how to take out those identical frames aka "fillings". With Fraps record, everything is a keyframe except for the ones that was simply copy pasted to make it 60fps.

    EDIT2: Zonk and EX Zonk have 17f start-up!? They CH Paul's Phoenix Smasher and trade with Ryu's MK Joudan when done from 0 frame advantage.
    But don't they trade due to the strike invincibility? Try to frame count Zonk. I often get that weird frame, in particular for reversal timing. Again, doesn't happen all the time tho.

    You have me confused now.
    Post edited by zUkUu on
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I'll try to frame count Zonk after getting rid of all the weird frames.


    Ah okay. I think I wasn't able to clearly state what I was trying to say. My apologies. Here is what I'm saying:

    1st frame of start up
    2nd frame of start up <- shows button input in training mode. If you're doing st.MP, MP button will show up in this frame.
    3rd
    4th
    5th
    6th <- first active frame
    7th hit occurs (cody's portraits bobbles, he flinches backwards) <- first frame of hitfreeze; if you block the move, block effect occurs here
    8th frame, hit effect occurs <- it's just that it shows an effect and have no significance in frame data
    ...
    16th last frame of hitfreeze (for most medium strength normals, since they have 10f of hitfreeze)
    17th the attacker moves again and goes ahead with the remaining active and recovery frames

    Now, it might sound weird that the "input" is shown at the 2nd frame, but I was able to find this out by doing a jump. Cody goes into the 2nd pre-jump frame when the input is shown on the screen according to the recording I did:
    Spoiler:

    image
    ^Just a neutral stance

    image
    ^1st frame of pre-jump

    imageimage
    ^2nd frame of pre-jump, "up" direction input is shown here

    image
    ^3rd frame of pre-jump

    image
    ^4th (last) frame of pre-jump

    image
    ^5th Cody goes airborne


    I hope this will be easier to understand.
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    Okay, after an intense private therapy session discussion,  Street11 and me think it is indeed the case that you cancel the last recovery frame by another move. c.hk-Cody appears to have a different animation to jump-cody 1F prior to his first jump frame. That also would explain, why the other normals (c.mk, knife c.mp) have all different frames: it's the first start up frame.
    We'll have to see if you can cancel that last frame not only by another normal but also by a special / super / cross art or by blocking, manual jumping on frame perfect (so not holding "up").
    我道
  • WantonxWantonx Mooseknuckle Sammich Joined: Posts: 2,110 ✭✭
    Shit... You guys are finding some interesting stuff. Keep it up.  =D>
    Having seen Cool Runnings a bunch of years ago, I consider myself a certified bobsledding expert
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  • RalenzoRalenzo Belgian Pad player Joined: Posts: 204
    edited February 2013
    A couple of notes on Yoshimitsu.

    - Super is 7 frames not 6, I can't seem to punish moves that are -6 on block nor combo into moves that are +6 on hit.
    - His MP suicide doesn't seem to have any invincibility, doesn't seem to strike low, high or aerial attacks.

    On Paul

    - Ex shredder kicks doesn't whiff on crouchers.
    Post edited by Ralenzo on
  • Higher-JinHigher-Jin MvC2 Moderator Joined: Posts: 1,953
    Important note:

    Yoshimitsu's MP sucide move is not strike invincible.
    Yoshimitsu's EX suicide can hit juggled and airborne opponents now


    Either we all live in a decent world, or nobody does. - George Orwell
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Okay, so it looks like there was a mistranslation. I looked at the Japanese log, and it says it "ignores counter moves" (probably something like Asuka's counter, Juri's shit, etc.). I changed it accordingly. It was never strike invincible in the first place.

    Super will be tested when possible. It was straight from Brady Guide so idk the exact info.
    Post edited by street11 on
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  • DodekaDodeka Centurion Joined: Posts: 989
    I can confirm 3 cases of link canceling.  2 with Jin, and 1 with Akuma.  If I'm correct, 0 Frame links is when the start-up of one move is the same as the advantage given by another.  If this is true then Jin has two with one resulting in a normal linked string, and another in a block string.  His is:

    cr.MP, Far st.MP-If you plink it on those last frames of crMP the far st.MP will come out, and continue the combo. +9 frame advantage, 9 start-up for far st MP.

    blockstring- cr.mp, cr.HPxxSS Uppercut- At first I thought this was either a true blockstring, or me going crazy when I posted it in the Jin forums(which prompted me into questioning how much frame advantage cr.mp gave on block).  Sure enough, the advantage on block was +5 so I dismissed it being a true blockstring. But what I couldn't understand was why I could never get a mashed DP out when I did the string.  This link-canceling would explain it as cr.HP is 5 frames, and anytime I did the blocksting correctly I was unable to get a reversal DP until after the SS Uppercut which resulted in a punish.

    For Akuma:

    cr.MP, cr.HP- this was another strange one as I was looking for a way to get a consist combo to stand an opponent up so I could combo into tatsu.  Sure enough, the link works. cr.MP gives +6 advantage, and cr.HP is 6 frame Start-up.
    Worldmind Inc.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    @link-cancel
    It seems that you can NOT cancel it by:
    -Perfect Frame Jump
    -Dash
    -Block
    -Launcher
    -Throw

    You CAN cancel it by
    -a Normal
    -Tag (no meter)
    -Super Art
    -Cross Art

    And I am correct in that you can link-cancel Special Moves as well. All versions of Bad Stone for instance.
    LP Bad Stone (+8) ,x Cross Art (9F start up [did you confirm this?])
    MP Bad Stone (+6) ,x c.hk (7F start up)
    EX Bad Stone (+11) ,x MK Ruffian (12F start up)

    Edit:
    Dodeka said:
    If I'm correct, 0 Frame links is when the start-up of one move is the same as the advantage given by another.
    That is a 1F link and possible without link-canceling. E.G: Cody's cl.mp is +8 on hit and f.mp has 8F start up, which combos.
    Technically, a 0F link is if a move has +5F hit advantage and you try to combo a 6F start up move (which is not possible).
    Post edited by zUkUu on
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  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Nope, link cancelling creates a situation in which an 1 frame link (actually, we consider +9 frame advantage link into a 9f start-up move as an 1 frame link) becomes a 2 frame link and a link that is impossible by 1 frame difference (trying to link a 10f start-up move after a move with +9 advantage), becomes possible. Only a few moves have the ability to do this.

    I'm surprised that you cannot cancel the last frame with launcher and throw.
    Post edited by street11 on
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  • DodekaDodeka Centurion Joined: Posts: 989
    ah, okay.  Yea haven't messed with frames in awhile that explains it.  So those one-frames are two frame links instead which is even better then a thought with link-canceling.
    Worldmind Inc.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013

    street11 said:
    Nope, link cancelling creates a situation in which an 1 frame link (actually, we consider +9 frame advantage link into a 9f start-up move as an 1 frame link) becomes a 2 frame link and a link that is impossible by 1 frame difference (trying to link a 10f start-up move after a move with +9 advantage), becomes possible. Only a few moves have the ability to do this.

    I'm surprised that you cannot cancel the last frame with launcher and throw.
    The weird thing is that if you input the throw on frame 39 of knife c.hp (including start up and hit freeze), which is the cancel frame, the throw will still come out, but the first animation happens on the frame afterwards (so frame 40th, where you can link everything normally anyway). Launcher don't come out at all, same for jump. Here happens the first frame of animation for c.hk, tag, super etc tho.
    Post edited by zUkUu on
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    zUkUu said:
    The weird thing is that if you input the throw on frame 39 of knife c.hp (including start up and hit freeze), which is the cancel frame, the throw will still come out, but the first animation happens on the frame afterwards (so frame 40th, where you can link everything normally anyway). Launcher don't come out at all, same for jump. Here happens the first frame of animation for c.hk, tag, super etc tho.
    Which frame shows the throw input button in training mode? frame 40, or 41? Throw animation is so subtle that I think it's barely visible in frame 1.

    BTW, if throw really is not cancellable from and you input throw command at the exact same frame as cr.HK/cr.MK/etc., throw wouldn't come out at all, just like how a normal wouldn't come out if you input it a frame too early.
    Post edited by street11 on
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    street11 said:
    zUkUu said:
    The weird thing is that if you input the throw on frame 39 of knife c.hp (including start up and hit freeze), which is the cancel frame, the throw will still come out, but the first animation happens on the frame afterwards (so frame 40th, where you can link everything normally anyway). Launcher don't come out at all, same for jump. Here happens the first frame of animation for c.hk, tag, super etc tho.
    Which frame shows the throw input button in training mode? frame 40, or 41? Throw animation is so subtle that I think it's barely visible in frame 1.

    BTW, if throw really is not cancellable and you input throw command at the exact same frame as other cr.HK/cr.MK/etc., throw wouldn't come out at all, just like how a normal wouldn't come out if you input it a frame too early.
    That's what I'm saying. The Throw input is macroed on frame 39 but doesn't appear on screen until 41F. Start up happens on frame 40 (he goes from crouching into standing, so it's quite visible). For c.hk the input appears on frame 40. Seems like a hard buffer of 2 frames. I think dash has the same trait.
    Post edited by zUkUu on
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  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    Ah okay. I guess it indeed is not cancellable.

    Can you put the macro in frame 38 btw? I just want to confirm it further. Thanks in advance.
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    street11 said:
    Ah okay. I guess it indeed is not cancellable.

    Can you put the macro in frame 38 btw? I just want to confirm it further. Thanks in advance.
    I did, nothing happened^^
    我道
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    Ah okay. So basically you can input throw the frame before and it'll come out, but only after waiting an additional frame. TY for confirmation.
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    So any other moves other then ken, lars and cody's? I want to have one more example. :p

    Edit:
    Guile, cl f.hk (+7), df.hk (8F start up)!

    Will check if the values are true.
    Post edited by zUkUu on
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  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Lei's Dragon LP, Dragon MP, Crane LP, Crane MP, Crane HP.

    Except for Dragon MP, there are no linkable normals (actually, everything else is negative on hit lol), but you can link Dragon MP (+5 on hit) -> Dragon LK (6f start-up)

    Actually, I think his st.HP is as well (using frame perfect normal -> normal, I determined it even on hit, but after discovering the hit-jump method, I realized it was -1 on hit).
    Post edited by street11 on
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    image
    I worked the whole night on it. It's now 10 am over here, so gotta take a nap for a few hours before I'll finish it. Finding a macro tool and figuring it out took way too much time. And I'm way out of shape with video editing, didn't do something for over 3 years now.

    I'll upload a preview so you can spell and content check it @street11. I want request demand feedback! x)
    PS: Vegas > Premiere
    Post edited by zUkUu on
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  • The Big BossThe Big Boss Joined: Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭

    street11 said:
    Lei's Dragon LP, Dragon MP, Crane LP, Crane MP, Crane HP.

    Except for Dragon MP, there are no linkable normals (actually, everything else is negative on hit lol), but you can link Dragon MP (+5 on hit) -> Dragon LK (6f start-up)

    Actually, I think his st.HP is as well (using frame perfect normal -> normal, I determined it even on hit, but after discovering the hit-jump method, I realized it was -1 on hit).
    Wait so you can link these moves?
    AE: Bipson
    SFxT: Bison/Sagat, Law/Lei, Guile.
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭

    street11 said:
    Lei's Dragon LP, Dragon MP, Crane LP, Crane MP, Crane HP.

    Except for Dragon MP, there are no linkable normals (actually, everything else is negative on hit lol), but you can link Dragon MP (+5 on hit) -> Dragon LK (6f start-up)

    Actually, I think his st.HP is as well (using frame perfect normal -> normal, I determined it even on hit, but after discovering the hit-jump method, I realized it was -1 on hit).
    Wait so you can link these moves?
    Video explaining everything will be up in a few hours (I hope).
    我道
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    street11 where r u? :< video is just waiting on your approval.
    我道
  • Gr1nGoGr1nGo Joined: Posts: 27
    edited February 2013
    It seems, Kazuya's "Demon Slayer", LP > MP > MP is definitely not -14 on block. It can't be punished by Sagat's super so i request an exact calculation of frame advantage on this string. Thanks.
    Post edited by Gr1nGo on
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Gr1nGo wrote: »
    It seems, Kazuya's "Demon Slayer", LP > MP > MP is definitely not -14 on block. It can't be punished by Sagat's super so i request an exact calculation of frame advantage on this string. Thanks.
    It's -3. it also doesn't yield a hard knockdown but staggers (+17). fixed. thanks.
    Post edited by zUkUu on
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
  • RalenzoRalenzo Belgian Pad player Joined: Posts: 204
    edited February 2013
    I know you're probably working really hard right now, I'd be doing all these things myself If I had the necessary tools and knowledge. But sadly I don't, so the only thing I can do is try to verify your findings and search for errors.

    According to the frame data, Ogre his uf+LK > MK is -3 on block, but I wasn't able to reversal him with Ryu his DP (3f startup). I don't know if it is because of pushback or whatever, but I was able to punish him with Ken his Super (2f startup).

    Also is it correct that yoshimitsu his Super is 6 frames startup ?
    Me and my brother have been trying to link his f+MK > MP > b,b cancel into super (HCB+PPP).
    We were able to cancel the backdash and link into Ex Gehosen (DP motion + PP) and Sword Poke Windmill Ex (HCB+PP), but Super doesn't seem to work and all 3 of them have 6 frame startup. 

    Don't really know if u can be bothered with this, but yeah those were the 'errors' I've found for now.
    Post edited by Ralenzo on
  • azisazis Megaton Puncher Joined: Posts: 252
    ZuKu, thank you so much for putting your effort in this work.

    I know you did so much so far, but can you add some general frame data, like normal jump start-up, super jumps, characters who differs from the general (probably graplers).

    I'm looking specifically for the start-up of
    Pandora and Cross-Assault, would like to know if combos will work with some setups. Would like to know also if some grounded frames after a jump and action (like Hugo body splash, +4f) can be cancelled on something, you must already know that (saw your 0 frame video). I believe it can also be reduced to 3f.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    Ralenzo said:
    According to the frame data, Ogre his uf+LK > MK is -3 on block, but I wasn't able to reversal him with Ryu his DP (3f startup). I don't know if it is because of pushback or whatever, but I was able to punish him with Ken his Super (2f startup).

    Also are u sure that yoshimitsu his Super is 6 frames startup ?
    Me and my brother have been trying to link his f+MK > MP > b,b cancel into super.
    We were able to cancel the backdash and link into Ex Gehosen and Sword Poke Windmill Ex, but Super doesn't seem to work and all 3 of them have 6 frame startup. 

    Can u be bothered to verify this ?
    Ogre's chain seems to be -3.

    EX Poison Breath: Start Up 16F (-1)
    EX Swordmill: Start Up 5F (-1)
    Super Art: Start Up 7F (+1)

    EX Moves are often 1F faster; Super / Cross Arts 1F slower. Super / Cross Arts are hard to make out tho.
    azis said:
    ZuKu, thank you so much for putting your effort in this work.

    I know you did so much so far, but can you add some general frame data, like normal jump start-up, super jumps, characters who differs from the general (probably graplers).

    I'm looking specifically for the start-up of
    Pandora and Cross-Assault, would like to know if combos will work with some setups. Would like to know also if some grounded frames after a jump and action (like Hugo body splash, +4f) can be cancelled on something, you must already know that (saw your 0 frame video). I believe it can also be reduced to 3f.
    You can cancel the recovery if you empty jump. If you did an air attack you have a forced 4F of waiting time. I doubt you can cancel that.
    I do plan on compiling an up to date health, dash, jump and walk speed list etc somewhere in the future.
    我道
  • RalenzoRalenzo Belgian Pad player Joined: Posts: 204
    edited February 2013
    I see, then the reason I couldn't punish that Ogre chain is probably because of pushback, huh. Or maybe Ryu his DP is not 3 frames...
    I dunno, there didn't seem to be any pushback, oh well, I'm gonna try punishing it with other 3 frame normals/specials/supers then.

    But I'm gonna do that tomorrow, I'll also give u a list of all the properties of Bryan his specials and moves.
    Post edited by Ralenzo on
  • RalenzoRalenzo Belgian Pad player Joined: Posts: 204
    edited February 2013
    Just did a quick test to see If I'm able to punish Ogre his uf+LK > MK chain, but nope...
    I tried reversaling it with Ryu (DP), Ken (HP DP and EX DP), Akuma (DP), Steve (Super) and Julia (Super), didn't work. I wasn't able to punish Ogre his d+LK > MK > MK either for that matter and that's also -3, altho this string does give a little bit of pushback so that could be the reason, but I don't understand why I'm not able to punish Ogre his uf+LK > MK string since It doesn't seem to give any pushback whatsoever. Both strings (uf+LK > MK and d+LK > MK >MK) only seem to be punishable by Ken his 2frame super.
    I tried blocking it high and low to see if that was a factor but it isn't.

    So either;
    - the reversals are not a true reversal (meaning it's not frame perfect for some reason, even if it says 'reversal')
    - the DP's and Supers are 4 frames 
    - Ogre is able to block at frame -1 for some reason
    - or SFxTK is playing tricks with me -__-

    I hate to burden you with this trivial matter, but seriously, wtf ?! 
    Post edited by Ralenzo on
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Ralenzo said:
    Just did a quick test to see If I'm able to punish Ogre his uf+LK > MK chain, but nope...
    I tried reversaling it with Ryu (DP), Ken (HP DP and EX DP), Akuma (DP), Steve (Super) and Julia (Super), didn't work. I wasn't able to punish Ogre his d+LK > MK > MK either for that matter and that's also -3, altho this string does give a little bit of pushback so that could be the reason, but I don't understand why I'm not able to punish Ogre his uf+LK > MK string since It doesn't seem to give any pushback whatsoever. Both strings (uf+LK > MK and d+LK > MK >MK) only seem to be punishable by Ken his 2frame super.
    I tried blocking it high and low to see if that was a factor but it isn't.

    So either;
    - the reversals are not a true reversal (meaning it's not frame perfect for some reason, even if it says 'reversal')
    - the DP's and Supers are 4 frames 
    - Ogre is able to block at frame -1 for some reason
    - or SFxTK is playing tricks with me -__-

    I hate to burden you with this trivial matter, but seriously, wtf ?! 
    I'll look into this later again.

    Edit: I tried to reversal it with EX TU and wasn't abel to. However, video showing a clear -3.... a new glitch? xD hahah
    Post edited by zUkUu on
    我道
  • RalenzoRalenzo Belgian Pad player Joined: Posts: 204
    edited February 2013
    Ok, but don't push yourself too hard man and make sure you get enough sleep (It's 4.30am already). 
    There's a reason why I'm calling it trivial, cause In the end of the day it's just a matter of "these normals can be linked into these normals" and "this special can be punished by that special". The exact numbers are not that important eventho they are exact and make things a lot more easier.
    Just look after yourself alright ;)
    Post edited by Ralenzo on
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    Or it might just be that he has frames in which he can block during recovery, like how regular jump-in recovery works?

    Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
    XBL: street121
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  • RalenzoRalenzo Belgian Pad player Joined: Posts: 204
    edited February 2013
    That makes sense because after uf+LK > MK he's airborn. 
    But it doesn't make sense why you can't punish him after d+LK > MK > MK tho, still if he's able to block during recovery frames, then it's probably something like they did with the roll, u can't attack after u roll but you're still able to block.
    So after his chains are blocked he's -3, this means he can't attack for 3 frames but can block after 2 frames...man SFxTK is weird -_-

    If that's really the case then I wonder if there are other characters who can do the same.
    Post edited by Ralenzo on
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    street11 said:
    Or it might just be that he has frames in which he can block during recovery, like how regular jump-in recovery works?

    Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
    I thought about this as well, but it seems odd that he can be punished by a 2F move then.

    I recorded a video where I reversal with sagat.. He has 6F from touching the ground until I have my first reversal frame, but he looks like he is in his normal crouching position.
    我道
  • RalenzoRalenzo Belgian Pad player Joined: Posts: 204
    edited February 2013

    zUkUu said:
    I'll look into this later again.

    Edit: I tried to reversal it with EX TU and wasn't abel to. However, video showing a clear -3.... a new glitch? xD hahah
    One glitch after another huh, they might as well call this 'Glitch Fighter x Tekken' seriously >.>
    But the biggest thing that frustrates me is that the brady guide is full with errors and faults !!! I don't even have the Brady Guide, but come on, they're almost ripping people off....
    Post edited by Ralenzo on
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ralenzo said:

    zUkUu said:
    I'll look into this later again.

    Edit: I tried to reversal it with EX TU and wasn't abel to. However, video showing a clear -3.... a new glitch? xD hahah
    One glitch after another huh, they might as well call this 'Glitch Fighter x Tekken' seriously >.>
    But the biggest thing that frustrates me is that the brady guide is full with errors and faults !!! I don't even have the Brady Guide, but come on, they're almost ripping people off....
    I don't fault Brady Games for that. They took a bunch of players, locked them in a room, and told them to make the best guide for FG players they could.

    I blame Capcom for licensing the damned thing and not giving them the game data to work with.
    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
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  • MnszykMnszyk Joined: Posts: 513
    I don't understand why this "link cancel" thing isn't just the animation recovering 1 frame earlier. Like, you say "well you can cancel this frame if you use the input on the exact frame", but that's true of every frame post-recovery. You can cancel 1 frame after recovery by pressing a button exactly 1 frame after recovery, and 2 frames after recovery by pressing a button exactly 2 frames after recovery. And apparently for some moves you can cancel 0 frames after recovery by pressing a button on exactly that frame, because the moves actually recover 1 frame earlier than their animations would indicate.

    It just seems like a quirk with the way moves are animated. Can you block earlier with this extra frame? If you can block on this magic frame as well, then it's almost more of a bug with jumps than anything else.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    Mnszyk said:
    I don't understand why this "link cancel" thing isn't just the animation recovering 1 frame earlier. Like, you say "well you can cancel this frame if you use the input on the exact frame", but that's true of every frame post-recovery. You can cancel 1 frame after recovery by pressing a button exactly 1 frame after recovery, and 2 frames after recovery by pressing a button exactly 2 frames after recovery. And apparently for some moves you can cancel 0 frames after recovery by pressing a button on exactly that frame, because the moves actually recover 1 frame earlier than their animations would indicate.

    It just seems like a quirk with the way moves are animated. Can you block earlier with this extra frame? If you can block on this magic frame as well, then it's almost more of a bug with jumps than anything else.
    As explained in the video, Blocking, Jumping, Dashing, Throw and Launcher don't seem to work. That's why it's a cancel instead of 1F less recovery, because otherwise, you could also move. I will test this more thoroughly tomorrow.
    我道
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,655 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Found out the possible cause:

    In SF4 the prejump section is called "STAND2JUMP" it's a 12frame animation run a 6x speed. However in SFxT the prejump animation is called TAKEOFF_V (or _F or _B depending on up forward or backwards jumps) and it is ALSO a 12frame animation but it is only run a 4x speed. Could the 1F extra prejump animation be the culprit?
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • EasternwarriorEasternwarrior Joined: Posts: 20
    Is it possible you can add to the frame data what is the advantage of CADC for each character and Steve's data from flicker crouch canceling?
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