What qualifies as "safe on block" in Marvel?

SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkErJoined: Posts: 729
The fastest move is a snapback at 2 frames but grabs are 1 frame. But nobody is going to make 1 frame reactions so... what is the minimum block advantage for a move that it is unpunishable by a decent player?
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  • MrBGuyMrBGuy #yolo Joined: Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    are you serious?
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  • AnimageAnimage Joined: Posts: 27
    First off, you're supposed to predict throws, not "react to them". Second of all, any move with frame advantage on block is unpunishable, so the minimum is 0.
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  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    I mean how negative on block can it be to the point that it is unreliable to put at the end of a blockstring
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  • TenguEggTenguEgg Joined: Posts: 1,145
    Its entirely dependant on way too many factors. A move can be -47 on block but still 100% safe/give frame advantage if you're able to cancel into another action ( assuming the frame data works out to make it 0/positive on block ).

    And you don't need 1 frame reactions to punish a move that is -1 on block, you just need to mash throw when you see that move is blocked.

    And something that is -1 on block can be unsafe or unsafe depending on your spacing, if you do it super meaty and deep, you're eating a throw, if you have a sword normal and do it at max range, theres nothing thats really going to reliably punish you. Same goes for things that are -2,-3,-4,-5 or whatever on block.

    I'd worry less about the frame data because its very deceiving and hard to reliably read at times if you just take it at face value. See what common pressure strings people are using, use them, and see if theres any holes in them.
  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,680 ✭✭✭
    If noone had a teleport or fast full range move, an attack that pushes you full screen could be -5000 on block and still be pretty much "unpunishable." If Bionic Arm was -1, it'd still be punishable just because you can mash throw. In the end, it doesn't really matter what the frame data says if you think about how you use each move. Frame traps work on the principal that there are gaps where the opponent can do something yet they're very important to any offensive game.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Quantum Theorist. Liquid Dubstep Energy Joined: Posts: 33,321 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    @Steelguttey...although you seem a bit confused, there is one character I know of that still has a 1 frame start up snap back. That being Chun Li. Randomly hers is still 1 frame.

    Marvel is a game where you "navigate" frames and hit boxes rather than go by the book so much. That's why I like it because the creativity is more so through what you create as far as chemistry rather than just doing footsies and going by the book of frames.

    Frames are important to know so you can get an idea of where you will win or lose in certain footsie or block situations, but generally it depends on a lot of things.
    As long as the person has meter to blow or an XF cancel you can't ever truly know if something is punishable sometimes. The better idea is just to keep doing things that you know are safe and then bait it out from them.

    Pretty much anything that is negative on block is no longer negative on block once you call an assist on top of it. The frame advantage you can get from an assist varies depending on the assist. Even without assists the amount of block stun you do can vary on whether they pushblock or not. If they pushblock then an additional 21 frames of block stun are added to whatever they just blocked. Meaning although they pushblocked you they are technically further in a negative situation.



    Basically anytime you block an assist or the opponent is sitting on a lot of meter, you more so have to navigate through what they are doing than worry about the frames.

    It's only when you get to like anchor vs. anchor (more so without XF) situations where crunching frame data numbers is of a huge importance.
    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on
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  • AKZuMAKZuM I Make Blizzards Joined: Posts: 97
    Anything with frame advantage(or like -2 or -3 on block, maybe even -4 or -5) that leaves you at a safe enough distance from your opponent so you wont get caught by their fastest attacks or throws.
  • CougarCougar Logic, yo. Joined: Posts: 1,528
    If the move leaves you at point blank, -0 is safe on block. -1 can be punished by grabs for free. You don't have to react in one frame, rather you have to react during the startup/active/recovery frames and grab once you're out of blockstun. Average reaction time is 15 frames, so if startup + active + recovery - difference on block is greater than 15, you can react to the move.

    If it leaves you a short distance away, -3 is generally safe. It depends on the character you're facing really. Ammy can punish in 3 frames, but most characters punish in 5 or 6 and some can't even punish in 8.

    If it's a long distance away, like more than the length of a normal move, then -8 is usually safe-ish. Again, it really varies by matchup.

    Anything that can be canceled into something that's safe is safe. She-hulk's lamppost is -47 or some odd number like that, but it cancels into stance so it's totally safe. Nobody really uses She-hulk though, so yay for useless knowledge!

    With X-Factor cancels considered, nothing is truly safe.
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  • NooneyouknowNooneyouknow Joined: Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭
    There's also shit that's safe on normal block, but not on AG. Advancing Guard has set gaurd stun it leaves the player in (21 frames iirc) so anything with more than 21+ active and recovery frames can be unsafe on block providing the AGing characters has a move that can reach. Of course that's assuming the attack makes contact on the first active frame.

    Also, you need to remember to add hitstop into the equation Cougar gave above me, but I don't have any handy reference material to how much hitstop each attack causes.
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  • CougarCougar Logic, yo. Joined: Posts: 1,528
    Also, you need to remember to add hitstop into the equation Cougar gave above me, but I don't have any handy reference material to how much hitstop each attack causes.

    Ah, that's right. Hitstop causes 4-12 frames of nothingness when an attack makes contact with a character. This depends on the attack. Many projectiles cause little or no hitstop by nature, but the average normal triggers about 7-11 frames hitstop. That's even more time for you to react :)

    Isn't it funny how it's such a slow game on paper, but everything happens so fast?
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  • NooneyouknowNooneyouknow Joined: Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭
    The reason it's still so fast is that while the total duration of say, Wesker's crouching L is enough time to react to the move, the start up is so fast that it's impossible to block it on reaction. The same even holds true for Nova, Frank, and Strange's "slow" low hits - they're slow, in that they can't catch a chicken gurrd, but they're still too fast to block on reaction, at least if you're close enough to be hit on the first active frame in the case of Frank's slide.
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  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 529 ✭✭
    Vergil S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H-S-H......................................
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  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,659 ✭✭✭
    Safe on block is subjective and varies in UMVC3, but it's at a advantage then it's safe.   However, it's best to test your blockstring on Vergil/Amaterasu/etc and see if they can punish you for the blockstring to test if it's safe.

    Just because it's safe on normal block, doesn't mean it's safe on AG/when the oppotent XFC/crosscounters.

    Something being -l doesn't matter if you can x-factor cancel it, or grab it when the oppotent is to close.  However with assists, unsafe becomes safe because assist protects the point.

    something being -17 doesn't mean that you can punish if the pushback pushes the oppotent to far to punish, or the recovery is too fast or your character can't punish.




  • Smoothjazz101Smoothjazz101 Joined: Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭✭
    Nobody has mentioned pushback yet
    flagged as spam
  • RenegadeRenegade Joined: Posts: 3,042
    People generally suck at punishing in Marvel.

    As was said, snapbacks are usually 2 frames, and can have various ranges. 

    There are plenty of supers that can full screen punish with the right DHC or Team Hyper Combo starter. 

    Iron Fist is 3 frames
    Spencer is 4 
    Magneto is 4 with tempest (need hyper grav assist)
    Haggar is 5.

    Then most beam supers or Hail, Okami Shuffle, or Gimlet will hit in 1 frame.

    So it's basically a 4-6 frame punish.

    Also meter expensive is a Cross Counter Canceled into an air super. 

    Problem is most moves can be canceled into something, unless it's a launcher or something. 
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  • JediLinkJediLink Has 100%'d Super Smash Bros Melee Joined: Posts: 719
    SmokeMaxX said:
    If noone had a teleport or fast full range move, an attack that pushes you full screen could be -5000 on block and still be pretty much "unpunishable."
    So, 83 seconds isn't enough to walk over to the other guy and hit him?
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  • ChrisisChrisis Follows her path Joined: Posts: 7,561 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As D_Jin stated, this game really has a lot of variation for things that determines their safety. Everything in Marvel is incredibly situational, IE:

    Helm breaker is 0 on block according to the guide, therefore in a traditional game it would be safe on block.

    If you chicken block Helm breaker it is now unsafe, and the level of negative frames depends on the timing of the chicken block.

    If disruptor is called during the helm breaker, even if they chicken guard, the disruptor covers the hole that chicken guarding would create and therefore it ends up actually being plus.

    If the blocking character was Ammy, she can chicken guard, crouch under the disruptor and hit both.

    If instead of disruptor Vergil had submachine gun assist it's low enough to hit crouching Ammy and thus make the situation safe again.

    If you had summoned Lariat before chicken guarding however, it will punish Vergil and potentially Chris based on range leading into a happy birthday.

    Advance guarding also changes the amount of block stun something generates it, making it a flat rate of (I think 23 frames but not entirely sure.) because of this every move has wildly varying safety properties depending on the situation. You need to analyze the tools that are available to both you and your enemy at every point in the match to figure out how to make something safe and make what they do unsafe.
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  • AntstyleAntstyle Joined: Posts: 3,950
    As mentioned by Chrisis, chicken blocking can make all sorts of things unsafe depending on the situation, especially on moves leaving you close to the opponent (and those especially in the corner where this is more often the case).

    It's therefore worth taking the height of your opponent into account if they're in the air, as otherwise completely safe blockstrings can be countered by chicken blocking. (The reason this applies especially to moves leaving you close is that this makes grabs viable, and given that grabs are one frame, you can chicken block punish all sorts of things if they're close)
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Quantum Theorist. Liquid Dubstep Energy Joined: Posts: 33,321 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anybody see this yet?

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  • RenegadeRenegade Joined: Posts: 3,042
    That video doesn't work. Just ask a friend to test it out. The frames of team supers is pre flash frames of point character meshed with post flash frames of everyone else.
    So Bionic Arm on point+ Hail is a 5 Frame full screen punish.
    If it was 0 frames, you can punish wesker's launcher (-1) You can't do that.
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  • DrkD23DrkD23 Have at Thee! Joined: Posts: 234
    Renegade wrote: »
    That video doesn't work. Just ask a friend to test it out. The frames of team supers is pre flash frames of point character meshed with post flash frames of everyone else.
    So Bionic Arm on point+ Hail is a 5 Frame full screen punish.
    If it was 0 frames, you can punish wesker's launcher (-1) You can't do that.

    Bionic Arm is actually 0 frame, but it HAS to be point-blank for that to be the case. I've only ever seen Dormammu's level 3 beat it or trade point blank (which is pretty much instant point-blank).
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  • d3vd3v #MAXCPM Fiber Override Joined: Posts: 24,273 mod
    Pushblock and assists take stuff that should be safe/unsafe and make them safe/unsafe.
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