I hit a ceiling

hifumihifumi Joined: Posts: 15
I know it's hard to give hints on playstyle if you don't know how someone plays, so I'll try to describe what problems I have and see if someone can give me hints.
Okay? tl;dr at the end, because I know this forum is not one of many words.

Let's see... first off, I'm only around 1000-1300 PP. Some days I do okay and rise a bit above that, other days not so well.
One of my main problems, I guess, is dealing with jump-ins. Even if I try to counter with moves that seem like good anti air, a lot of the time I'll only trade hits and lose more life than the opponent. I mean things like the standing medium kick. Perhaps my timing is off? But here's the word: "timing".

When I read through stickies and threads on this forum I find tons of possible combos. The game's own challenge mode suggests a few itself. Like the cr.lp mp hp, or what was it? But these are 1 frame links. At 60 frames per second, that's a 50ms window to hit the button. F**** me. These one frame link-combos are casually mentioned like "Oh, did you know you could do this?" But no, I can't do it, and I believe 70-80% of the SF4-playing population can't either. At least I never see people do them online. So you can apparently link a lk from a Hazanshu, but however many times I've tried, I've never managed to do so in training mode. After 100 tries I should pull it off at least a few times by mere chance, right? So LL loop my ass.

One thing that always gets me is how some characters can chain their specials together so that it's hard to punish them. Sagat goes over me with a Tiger Knee, I try to sweep and he immediately comes back with a Tiger Uppercut, hitting me out of my sweep while taking no damage at all. He whiffed, shouldn't it be my turn to punish? Maybe there's a window where I could have hit him, maybe I took too long to do so, but it's still annoying. I could have waited out the uppercut and punished him afterwards, but there's always a chance of the opponent just doing something else, and blocking too much is like an invitation to put on more pressure.
It's similar with the Shoryuken uppercut: After I block a Tatsumaki or something else they'll either do an uppercut or try to throw. I think there's this option select where you duck and press throw, but if I do that and the opponent decides to uppercut, Chun will try to do a cr. lk, which she then gets hit out of by the Shoryuken with it's invincibility frames. Or am I wrong? I wish I could say I understand the throw-tech option select but honestly, even normal throws often elude me. Sometimes I'll try to throw the opponent, hit throw and instead he throws me. What the...? It's not a command throw they'll do, and I've also had times when my character started her throw animation first and then she got thrown instead. Don't even get me started on actual command throws... someone does two light punches against my guard and then the camera suddenly shifts and a throw animation plays out that takes away a quarter of my health without any startup frames whatsoever? How do I even avoid that?

One thing I like and at the same time hate about Chun Li is how she has few "cheap" moves. I use that word reluctantly and in inverted commas because it makes me sound like a noob to call something cheap. I realize that every (?) blocked special can be punished or at least puts the one who blocks it at an advantage. But there's a lot of stuff that's easy to execute but requires good reaction, timing or simply knowledge to counter. Like all those characters who'll fly around at the top of the screen and suddenly come down in front or behind you, or just throw you, so you can't simply block it. Moves that confer immunity to fireballs, like Psycho Crusher or Tatsumaki. Even if you do block these, they often go flying off into the distance and almost out of reach again, or as with the Tatsumaki, follow up with an uppercut or throw so that it creates a 50/50 guessing game.
Some characters can stand at a screens distance away and just throw fireballs by doing the same motion over and over again, but advancing towards them feels like swimming up a waterfall. I need to time my FA-dashes and Hazanshus right just to get closer, and as I recover from getting past one the next fireball is already underway, this time from half a screen away. If I jump over it they'll SRK, if I dash through it they'll probably sweep, and so on. I realize that with good timing there's ways to get through to the opponent and attack them, but it's so annoying how I am always the one who needs to time her moves perfectly, lest I take a lot of damage, while the opponent is at no real risk. I have enough experience now that I can predict what a lot of people will do - what I lack is the timing, reaction or knowledge to properly counter it. So while the opponent goes through the same motions again and again, I'm at the edge of my seat trying to not mess up the timing and get in a few attacks myself which, in most cases, will be pokes that don't do a lot of damage. Incidentally, whenever I meet another Chun Li online much of this gets confirmed, because I never suffered from crap like what I mentioned above. Even when I lose, it just never feels "cheap".

What else is there? Perhaps the wakeup game, what little there is to it with Chun Li. As in... no options at all? Without any useful reversal, all I can do is block while waking up and then I'll have to endure their blockstrings and more pressure. Why do I have to endure that while people like Akuma can just teleport out of their wake-up, or create a guessing game by waking up with a Shoryuken?

When I first started playing I used Ibuki for a while, just doing a lot of neckbreaker and more or less randomly throwing out my ultra when available, or to punish a whiffed attack. I didn't even do that bad, just because of the sudenness and range of the neckbreaker that makes it hard to react to, it's ability to go past fireballs in it's EX version and because of the high damage super. Ibuki might not be an easy character to master, but she has a couple of gimmicks that can take you very far. Chun seems to be one of the characters who have really few gimmicks to rely upon.

tl;dr:
What's holding me back, it seems, is my inability to deal with many other characters' gimmicks and "flowchart" methods that put them at very low risk while putting me under constant pressure. How do I overcome that?

Comments

  • MalvadiscoMalvadisco Marambio Joined: Posts: 2,967
    stop playing online
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  • hifumihifumi Joined: Posts: 15
    edited March 2013
    Malvadisco wrote: »
    stop playing online

    I've been considering that, but something's driving me back to the game again and again. It's scary.

    PS:
    By the way, I'll add another, maybe a bit different question because I realize my original questions might be a bit hard to answer: What do you people think is the most important thing to focus on when you want to play Chun Li right?
  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    ^You should definitely know the matchups (that is, how Chun fares against opponent/character so-and-so in general), it's integral in SF4. Read the sticky threads, watch the vids, and try to gain every advantage you can against the opponent. Some are really hard - LOL AKUMA LOL - but hang in there.

    Same is true about her pokes/normal moves and spacing. You should know where you want to be, and what to avoid (getting forced into the corner) at all times, and what your buttons do and how they can help hose opponent so-and-so.

    ===

    One thing I like and at the same time hate about Chun Li is how she has few "cheap" moves.

    That's pretty much it, and what a lot of us here in the subforums have come to accept. She takes a lot of work, and you have to be much better than your opponents to win. Online makes this more obvious, as she doesn't even have (as far as I know) that much herpa derpa lol lag stuff that works in her favor. Just take a break if you feel that it's really getting to you. Heck, I would even suggest an alt/pocket character if certain characters become problematics.

    For waking up, it's always best to just block. That's definitely one of her greatest disadvantages... being vulnerable to guessing games/mixup on knockdown. But that's how it is, just block or backdash out of the way (if the other guy doesn't know option select punishes anyway) and let's how v2013 will help us out on that front.

    That's all I got for now
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • MalvadiscoMalvadisco Marambio Joined: Posts: 2,967
    hifumi wrote: »
    Malvadisco wrote: »
    stop playing online

    I've been considering that, but something's driving me back to the game again and again. It's scary.

    PS:
    By the way, I'll add another, maybe a bit different question because I realize my original questions might be a bit hard to answer: What do you people think is the most important thing to focus on when you want to play Chun Li right?

    to have fun.

    most ppl like to win while having fun and others are more practical: fun = win. The problem is if you are looking easy wins or you dont have that much time to invest in just one character then i´d say that you need to look another character, is not good to blame on the characters for your shortcomings, there are 39 in this game for some reason...

    Chun is one of those characters that will cost you a lot of time to play her at decent level, just like gouki gen but the reward may be not as good as learning gen or gouki tho.

    Like i said, all depends on what are you looking for.
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  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    By all means, play friends/others offline if you can. Online can be good, but for me it's secondary or even last resort.
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • ExvarisExvaris Arcade ∞ Joined: Posts: 2,879
    Personally, understanding frame data and understanding the way the game mechanics work provided the biggest improvement to my game than anything else. But then again, I'm a very theoretical person so that may be why understanding the concepts of the game helped me so much.

    But really, you can be helped by just learning to block more. This can be harder to do online when dealing with lag issues, but it's more reliable and less risky than trying to anti-air. Experiment with anti-airs still, but if you're unsure, just block.

    It also sounds like you're having trouble with mixups. For example, jab jab throw as a block string is intended to get you to start blocking. Then it mixes you up by throwing which beats your block. Mindgames are a somewhat advanced portion of Street Fighter, but generally speaking, most of the opponents you face (no offense) will be either mashing or doing the same things over and over. Once you figure out your opponents pattern, all you have to do is figure out what you have to do to beat it. In this case, backdash or jump when you think the throw is coming out, and you get a free punish.
    «勝兵先勝而後求戰,敗兵先戰而後求勝。»
    "Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."
    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    ---
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    edited April 2013
    hifumi wrote: »
    Malvadisco wrote: »
    stop playing online

    I've been considering that, but something's driving me back to the game again and again. It's scary.

    PS:
    By the way, I'll add another, maybe a bit different question because I realize my original questions might be a bit hard to answer: What do you people think is the most important thing to focus on when you want to play Chun Li right?

    With Chun there isnt really "one" thing to stick with, but if I could give you a few pointers (in no specific order):

    1) Learn to zone properly. This isnt so easy with Chun because her Anti-Airs arent so good, and her fireball isnt too good at zoning either, but you need to do this effectively.
    2) Learn footsies, chun li's basic strength is her footsies
    3) learn each matchup, don't just think that youll learn it as you go, you will have to RESEARCH online, and this means more than just watching videos, because videos dont tell the whole story.
    This document should help you, read, and apply it
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ecsB5unf3fFn1h70GEvXpEaz_Z9y04EZCladmTRgEsI/edit

    In addition youll need to find the best players you can and play them often, and apply everything in that document. When you play shitty ken players, they dont present anything other than bait and punish opportunities, and they dont zone or play footsies. Find a local scene, go and play, if you dont have one, drive to the nearest big city and play their top players.

    4) Don't be random. I know you see people online just throwing shit out, and sometimes it works, but with Chun, she doesnt have anything like that, and she takes damage hard.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • hifumihifumi Joined: Posts: 15

    That's a nice guide. It also mentions footsies.
    I'd like to play footsies, but what makes it difficult is that a lot of characters have moves that are (or seem to be) safe on block and have a great reach, like Blankas ball attack. I also have trouble with Bisons scissor kicks, some of Balrogs special punches and this and that. At just outside poking range I find these moves impossible to react to, but the other player often uses them liberally. So often I want to close just a little bit of distance, but just as I press forward the opponent's special comes out. Even if I block, there's often no opportunity to punish it.
    Then again, if I do hit at that range with a medium punch, then what? It does very little damage by itself and there don't seem to be a lot ways you can go from there. Unless you can consistently hit that 1f link into HP maybe, but I think if I could conistently hit 1f links the game would be a lot easier anyways.

    (btw frame data says that mp is +5 on hit, but HP has 6 frames startup. I'm pretty sure it's possible to do this, but doesn't the frame data contradict that?)
  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    s. mp can combo into EX legs.

    With Chun you can be content with hit and run with pokes then going back to your optimum range (usually mid-range, but can be far if you're against characters like Zangief, or near if your against characters with poor reversals). Smart use of her fireballs and pokes can frustrate players. It does take some time to get used to though, because it's easy to get predictable when you don't have as many mashable/abusable tools as other characters. "Autopilot", as some people say... it's something you want to avoid.
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • MalvadiscoMalvadisco Marambio Joined: Posts: 2,967
    you cant link far hp from a raw st.mp.

    you can link a far hp from CH st.mp or meaty st.mp only if you are in range and they are standing, if they are crouching is very specific ie gief.

    And you can cancel st.mp into ex legs or link ex legs both are kind of hard to do w/o practice
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  • grechzoogrechzoo The Welsh Asian...? Joined: Posts: 247
    edited November 2013
    I have just got to 3kpp+ on PC AE 2012, after being in a very similar position to you only about 6 months ago.

    so while people say dont play online, or learn combos and execution. i will give you my personal experience and what truly helped me level up.

    I found a friend, who I REALLY enjoy chatting to and playing with, who was on the exact same level as me. and the more we played the more we levelled up. it sounds stupid that you can level up just playing on person and one character but it has been proved by me.

    the reason is: things like matchup knowledge, execution, combos, and the technical stuff, will come with experience and practice no matter what.

    however playing and learning with someone on your level does, someone you enjoy chatting and playing with, (was online for the record) helps you BOTH think outside of the box. about the player, what he is doing, its gets you into the mindframe of anticipating, rather than playing a one-track game, which is the problem for all beginner players.

    it teaches you to position, move, and expect things that nearly everyone does online and be there to punish. oh and it improves your defense like CRAZY. and i will tell you as a chun li player. defense is the best weapon she has.

    you have no idea how easy i find some of the 2800-3200pp players online when all they do is come out me now, whereas before i would get flustered, now i block and tech everything until they dont know what to do. then i go crazy offensive and they dont know what to do.

    my defense wins me my matches.

    so yeah, find a training partner. obviously still learn combos and new moves, but having a close friend you play with often online will give you more incentive to bring new things to the table and constantly one up each other, forcing each other to evolve their gameplans and think of new ways to win. and then soon you will be playing the game a totally different way.

    this is all 100% my experience, everyone is different, but this is exactly how i went from a struggling 800pp chun to a 3125pp chun li in the matter of a year. (my friend had....obviously, the exact same experience, and is on the same pp as me.)


    P.S.: reading a bit more of your posts. i can give one piece of technical advice that i took to heart, around the 1900pp range, and it instantly levelled me up to 2300-2500. use her movement, always move, and abuse that backdash, noone knows how to punish it at your level (few punish it at my level. chun li should be a MIGHTY pain to pin down.)

    Skullgirls - a fighting game by gamers, for gamers. http://www.skullgirls.com
    Signature stolen from Jet Set Dizzy who stole it from Mike Z
  • MalvadiscoMalvadisco Marambio Joined: Posts: 2,967
    w/e this thread is so old
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  • grechzoogrechzoo The Welsh Asian...? Joined: Posts: 247
    haha.

    on the first page though :) didn't look to see.

    apologies :)
    Skullgirls - a fighting game by gamers, for gamers. http://www.skullgirls.com
    Signature stolen from Jet Set Dizzy who stole it from Mike Z
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