Guilty Gear Xrd -REVELATOR- one of life's gilty pleasures

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  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 57
    edited March 18
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    They're emphasizing neutral by toning down some of the game's "single player" elements. Millia not getting knockdown off any random hit, Zato's pressure extenders being less advantageous, Sin losing food-less j.K loops in the corner, Jack-O goons being easier to kill, Bedman not converting off as many things as he used to due to 2H/3H nerfs, Raven needing to work a little bit more for oki, etc. At least that's how I see it.

    I don't see how that's emphasizing neutral. That is making neutral less high stakes. It sounds to me like the exact same scenario going from SF4 to SF5: oki is too strong, too much vortex, etc. Clearly that turned out well....

    How are these changes not emphasizing neutral? If Millia and Bedman aren't knocking you down off everything and Zato isn't making you block in the corner until your hair turns gray, you are playing more neutral, more often. I don't see what's paradoxical about this. Again, I'm not the biggest fan of some of the changes. My character is one of the characters who isn't looking forward to Rev2. That said, I don't think you can deny that if there are fewer ways to get to single player scenarios, then there is necessarily more direct player to player interaction. Maybe neutral is less high-stakes, but you'll be playing it more often. That's how it's being emphasized: there'll be more of it.

    For me, neutral is good if it's fleshed out; all characters have many options for many situations, which allows for deeply layered interplay between your options and their options, and a great deal of freedom when it comes to developing your style with a character and your own answers to situations. Guilty Gear's neutral is great because it's so nonlinear and open, imo. If you enjoy neutral because the idea of getting put in the blender if you fuck up gives you a thrill, then that's fine. That's your taste, and yeah, maybe this patch isn't doing what you want it to do (though realistically, plenty characters are still going to punish you plenty hard for mistakes). If you really need that sense of living on the edge with every move you make, then there's always Marvel 3.
    That is literally the SF5 approach and it didn't end well at all. There should be some sort of reward for playing neutral, otherwise you end up feeling like you're playing it for no real reason. A lot of the true classic games, at least to me, had a neutral game where if you fucked up it usually meant death.

    Regarding the second part, I agree, having many options is a good thing, as is the freedom to develop your own playstyle. The problem is that a lot of characters lost options this time around. I'm going to use May as an example since she is the character I know best. Ruu did a write up on her a while back where he said that generally 4 types of May player exist: Oki, Optimum damage, neutral-based, and balanced. One of those options (oki) is taking a huge hit in Rev2 (with certain options no longer being possible), so doesn't that seem to go against your point about freedom of playstyle/character options?
    As Insert Name Here said earlier, why are you bringing up SFV? First of all, whether or not SFV is a good fighting game is totally subjective. I think it's fairly general consensus that it's garbage as a product, but whether or not it's a good fighting game is totally a matter of taste. You don't seem to like it, but, that being the case, you should explain why you don't like it. Because most of the complaints that I hear about SFV actually have very little to do with oki being too weak. Most of the time, people are taking issue with shit like AA jab, the game being too momentum heavy (which seems to contradict your argument about SFV neutral not being rewarding... the people who actually play it seem to think otherwise), and character design across the cast feeling rather homogenized.

    To be frank, you're really kidding yourself if you think Rev2 is actually taking us to some post-apocalyptic world where neutral will never be rewarded. Millia and Zato will still end you if they knock you down. Sin will still do massive damage. And there are plenty of characters who were either relatively untouched or were buffed. I think you're definitely knee jerking here.

    As for your point about Ruu: frankly, I disagree with the notion that "oki" is a playstyle. If it is, it's not an interesting one, because having a "style," to me, implies having a particular way of approaching obstacles. When you've knocked someone down, you're not tackling any obstacles except defensive mechanics. Your argument doesn't hold any weight with me because it's playing with semantics and appealing to one thing that one particular player said (without providing any context for that claim, I might add). Ruu is a fantastic player, but I don't think that necessarily makes him an authority on the philosophy of fighting game design, so no, that doesn't go against my point about freedom of playstyle. It's his opinion. Not a fact.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    They're emphasizing neutral by toning down some of the game's "single player" elements. Millia not getting knockdown off any random hit, Zato's pressure extenders being less advantageous, Sin losing food-less j.K loops in the corner, Jack-O goons being easier to kill, Bedman not converting off as many things as he used to due to 2H/3H nerfs, Raven needing to work a little bit more for oki, etc. At least that's how I see it.

    I don't see how that's emphasizing neutral. That is making neutral less high stakes. It sounds to me like the exact same scenario going from SF4 to SF5: oki is too strong, too much vortex, etc. Clearly that turned out well....

    How are these changes not emphasizing neutral? If Millia and Bedman aren't knocking you down off everything and Zato isn't making you block in the corner until your hair turns gray, you are playing more neutral, more often. I don't see what's paradoxical about this. Again, I'm not the biggest fan of some of the changes. My character is one of the characters who isn't looking forward to Rev2. That said, I don't think you can deny that if there are fewer ways to get to single player scenarios, then there is necessarily more direct player to player interaction. Maybe neutral is less high-stakes, but you'll be playing it more often. That's how it's being emphasized: there'll be more of it.

    For me, neutral is good if it's fleshed out; all characters have many options for many situations, which allows for deeply layered interplay between your options and their options, and a great deal of freedom when it comes to developing your style with a character and your own answers to situations. Guilty Gear's neutral is great because it's so nonlinear and open, imo. If you enjoy neutral because the idea of getting put in the blender if you fuck up gives you a thrill, then that's fine. That's your taste, and yeah, maybe this patch isn't doing what you want it to do (though realistically, plenty characters are still going to punish you plenty hard for mistakes). If you really need that sense of living on the edge with every move you make, then there's always Marvel 3.
    That is literally the SF5 approach and it didn't end well at all. There should be some sort of reward for playing neutral, otherwise you end up feeling like you're playing it for no real reason. A lot of the true classic games, at least to me, had a neutral game where if you fucked up it usually meant death.

    Regarding the second part, I agree, having many options is a good thing, as is the freedom to develop your own playstyle. The problem is that a lot of characters lost options this time around. I'm going to use May as an example since she is the character I know best. Ruu did a write up on her a while back where he said that generally 4 types of May player exist: Oki, Optimum damage, neutral-based, and balanced. One of those options (oki) is taking a huge hit in Rev2 (with certain options no longer being possible), so doesn't that seem to go against your point about freedom of playstyle/character options?
    As Insert Name Here said earlier, why are you bringing up SFV? First of all, whether or not SFV is a good fighting game is totally subjective. I think it's fairly general consensus that it's garbage as a product, but whether or not it's a good fighting game is totally a matter of taste. You don't seem to like it, but, that being the case, you should explain why you don't like it. Because most of the complaints that I hear about SFV actually have very little to do with oki being too weak. Most of the time, people are taking issue with shit like AA jab, the game being too momentum heavy (which seems to contradict your argument about SFV neutral not being rewarding... the people who actually play it seem to think otherwise), and character design across the cast feeling rather homogenized.

    To be frank, you're really kidding yourself if you think Rev2 is actually taking us to some post-apocalyptic world where neutral will never be rewarded. Millia and Zato will still end you if they knock you down. Sin will still do massive damage. And there are plenty of characters who were either relatively untouched or were buffed. I think you're definitely knee jerking here.

    As for your point about Ruu: frankly, I disagree with the notion that "oki" is a playstyle. If it is, it's not an interesting one, because having a "style," to me, implies having a particular way of approaching obstacles. When you've knocked someone down, you're not tackling any obstacles except defensive mechanics. Your argument doesn't hold any weight with me because it's playing with semantics and appealing to one thing that one particular player said (without providing any context for that claim, I might add). Ruu is a fantastic player, but I don't think that necessarily makes him an authority on the philosophy of fighting game design, so no, that doesn't go against my point about freedom of playstyle. It's his opinion. Not a fact.

    I'm talking about SF5 because it seems like what happened going from 4 to 5 is a similar scenario to the one we have here (I already explained this so I'm not going to repeat it, to help understand this comparison look up the word "scenario"). Also I don't think I ever commented on whether or not SF5 is a good/bad game, I just said it is a game where you don't have a lot of options. I don't know if I think Rev2 is taking us to a "post-apocalyptic world where oki will never be rewarded", but I do think it is taking us to a place where the game will be less fun as a result of characters not having as many options; Slash 2.0.

    I don't see how "oki" isn't a playstyle in this case. It is pretty easy to understand. You can try and oki your opponent to death, you can try and score one massive damage combo, you can focus on neutral (zoning, whiff punishing, etc), or you can do a combination of the 3. It's definitely not playing with semantics (not really sure why you said that). It is providing an example of these potential changes reining in certain character playstyles; all you did was talk around the point.
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 4,418
    At least they don't charge a lot for nothing.
    CFN: NaughtySenpai
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 57
    edited March 18
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    They're emphasizing neutral by toning down some of the game's "single player" elements. Millia not getting knockdown off any random hit, Zato's pressure extenders being less advantageous, Sin losing food-less j.K loops in the corner, Jack-O goons being easier to kill, Bedman not converting off as many things as he used to due to 2H/3H nerfs, Raven needing to work a little bit more for oki, etc. At least that's how I see it.

    I don't see how that's emphasizing neutral. That is making neutral less high stakes. It sounds to me like the exact same scenario going from SF4 to SF5: oki is too strong, too much vortex, etc. Clearly that turned out well....

    How are these changes not emphasizing neutral? If Millia and Bedman aren't knocking you down off everything and Zato isn't making you block in the corner until your hair turns gray, you are playing more neutral, more often. I don't see what's paradoxical about this. Again, I'm not the biggest fan of some of the changes. My character is one of the characters who isn't looking forward to Rev2. That said, I don't think you can deny that if there are fewer ways to get to single player scenarios, then there is necessarily more direct player to player interaction. Maybe neutral is less high-stakes, but you'll be playing it more often. That's how it's being emphasized: there'll be more of it.

    For me, neutral is good if it's fleshed out; all characters have many options for many situations, which allows for deeply layered interplay between your options and their options, and a great deal of freedom when it comes to developing your style with a character and your own answers to situations. Guilty Gear's neutral is great because it's so nonlinear and open, imo. If you enjoy neutral because the idea of getting put in the blender if you fuck up gives you a thrill, then that's fine. That's your taste, and yeah, maybe this patch isn't doing what you want it to do (though realistically, plenty characters are still going to punish you plenty hard for mistakes). If you really need that sense of living on the edge with every move you make, then there's always Marvel 3.
    That is literally the SF5 approach and it didn't end well at all. There should be some sort of reward for playing neutral, otherwise you end up feeling like you're playing it for no real reason. A lot of the true classic games, at least to me, had a neutral game where if you fucked up it usually meant death.

    Regarding the second part, I agree, having many options is a good thing, as is the freedom to develop your own playstyle. The problem is that a lot of characters lost options this time around. I'm going to use May as an example since she is the character I know best. Ruu did a write up on her a while back where he said that generally 4 types of May player exist: Oki, Optimum damage, neutral-based, and balanced. One of those options (oki) is taking a huge hit in Rev2 (with certain options no longer being possible), so doesn't that seem to go against your point about freedom of playstyle/character options?
    As Insert Name Here said earlier, why are you bringing up SFV? First of all, whether or not SFV is a good fighting game is totally subjective. I think it's fairly general consensus that it's garbage as a product, but whether or not it's a good fighting game is totally a matter of taste. You don't seem to like it, but, that being the case, you should explain why you don't like it. Because most of the complaints that I hear about SFV actually have very little to do with oki being too weak. Most of the time, people are taking issue with shit like AA jab, the game being too momentum heavy (which seems to contradict your argument about SFV neutral not being rewarding... the people who actually play it seem to think otherwise), and character design across the cast feeling rather homogenized.

    To be frank, you're really kidding yourself if you think Rev2 is actually taking us to some post-apocalyptic world where neutral will never be rewarded. Millia and Zato will still end you if they knock you down. Sin will still do massive damage. And there are plenty of characters who were either relatively untouched or were buffed. I think you're definitely knee jerking here.

    As for your point about Ruu: frankly, I disagree with the notion that "oki" is a playstyle. If it is, it's not an interesting one, because having a "style," to me, implies having a particular way of approaching obstacles. When you've knocked someone down, you're not tackling any obstacles except defensive mechanics. Your argument doesn't hold any weight with me because it's playing with semantics and appealing to one thing that one particular player said (without providing any context for that claim, I might add). Ruu is a fantastic player, but I don't think that necessarily makes him an authority on the philosophy of fighting game design, so no, that doesn't go against my point about freedom of playstyle. It's his opinion. Not a fact.

    I'm talking about SF5 because it seems like what happened going from 4 to 5 is a similar scenario to the one we have here (I already explained this so I'm not going to repeat it, to help understand this comparison look up the word "scenario"). Also I don't think I ever commented on whether or not SF5 is a good/bad game, I just said it is a game where you don't have a lot of options. I don't know if I think Rev2 is taking us to a "post-apocalyptic world where oki will never be rewarded", but I do think it is taking us to a place where the game will be less fun as a result of characters not having as many options; Slash 2.0.

    I don't see how "oki" isn't a playstyle in this case. It is pretty easy to understand. You can try and oki your opponent to death, you can try and score one massive damage combo, you can focus on neutral (zoning, whiff punishing, etc), or you can do a combination of the 3. It's definitely not playing with semantics (not really sure why you said that). It is providing an example of these potential changes reining in certain character playstyles; all you did was talk around the point.

    I can concede that me talking about SFV being good or bad may have been a bit presumptuous, though I don't think it's a stretch to say that you're not the biggest fan of the game given the way you've been alluding to it. That's beside the point though: the comparison to SFV is a flimsy one at best, imo. Yes, options are being lost in Rev2. Yes, options were lost from SF4 to SFV. For me, that comparison is too superficial to be useful, since SFV is an extreme case where everyone has the limbs of a T-Rex and more or less plays a different shade of the same overall game. The worst character in Rev2 will still have more options than SFV's entire cast combined (obviously an exaggeration, but I think you get the point).

    I've said on numerous occasions that I don't support the nerfs being doled out in this patch, so I cannot say that I really disagree with you. I'm not blind to what's going on, so, yes, strictly speaking, the "explosiveness" of the game, if you will, is going nowhere except down. I guess I'm really just coming at this with the goal of moderation. I do believe that the changes have a definite rationale behind them, and I'm prepared to accept them for what they are, even though I'm ideologically opposed to them. What I don't agree with is the excessively negative attitude being hurled in the patch's direction. We haven't even played it, so we really cannot profess to have any concrete idea of what the OVERALL meta will look like. After all, as I said before, some characters will do exactly what they do now, more or less, some characters will be better, and some of the characters who got nerfed also got new things that aren't trivial (air Deja Vu, H pin and Digitalis knockdown, Sin's new midscreen loops, Sol BR knockdown and new 6H, etc.)

    As for the oki thing, I concede here. I guess I have to admit that as a Zato player, I'm biased against that perspective. Zato usually has a well defined decision tree when it comes to going for damage or knockdown/oki/unblockable, so I tend to treat that decision making process as more of a science than an art, in the sense that it's less about having a particular style and more about being able to discern which decision is the most optimal (in terms of risk/reward) given the unfolding situation. So, strictly speaking, yeah, I could say that a Zato player who always goes for unblockable has a distinct style, but that's not an optimal way to play, and I'm not sure I'm prepared to say that choosing to play suboptimally is a real style. Rather, I tend to draw distinctions in style in terms of what is going on in a player's approach to matchups. I can see why, for a character with as rich a conversion game as May, that would be different, so that's a fair point you make. Still, it's just one character. Rev2 isn't shaping up to be a fun time to play May, but I still think that on the whole, the game will feature the same kind of freedom that has characterized it up to this point. Rather ironically, I think that already is the case for some of the nerfed characters. Millia, for example. Maybe now, there's a decision to be made about pin; throw it aggressively, or save it to turn any hit into knockdown? Maybe now you need to think about doing extended combos on Raven when his excitement is high so that you stall time for the gauge to start dropping. Maybe new styles emerge from the fact that crutches are being removed and choices have to be made when before the answer was too easy, the decision making process too linear. I don't know. The situation is not at all black and white though, imo. I think overall we have to agree to disagree, because it seems our perspectives on a lot of concepts differ greatly. Just something to think about.
  • RAW_GutsRAW_Guts Joined: Posts: 491
    edited March 18
    anzhar wrote: »
    will the dlc characters we purchased be usable on Rev 2?
    The vast majority of questionable changes happened only happened to Zato, Bedman, Leo, and May. Zato and Bedman are still gonna be strong, Leo will still struggle but isn't utterly hopeless (and never was). May IDK.

    You can argue that characters like Ram and Pot weren't changed enough but it's hard to balance them. Buffs are buffs in the end.

    But whatever, if people wanna talk about how the sky is falling then who am I to say otherwise? I'm just a simple man trying to make his annual tribute to ArcSys.

    Regardless of him being ruined or not here.

    Sol's 5K change is extremely questionable since it's been the same forever, quite an important button, and Sol is not seeing common results competitively in the first place. Am I missing the thousands of Sol players dominating the tournament circuit with their 5K mash?

    To be honest it feels like a nerf for the sake of nerfing unless there is something big that I am not noticing about his changes. Hell change for the sake of change why did they strict up the input for WIld Throw. Is this already a universal thing that I haven't noticed in effect already for everybody else?

    These sort of seemingly pointless and baseless balance changes annoyed me about Blazblue back when I played it.
    Post edited by RAW_Guts on
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    The only thing I'll say is, even people who have played the patch have expressed similar sentiments. Kedako said that Rev2 May is less interesting than Rev1 May. Dogura expressed conerns about characters losing options, Ogawa said something similar, etc. It's a fair point to say we haven't even played the game yet, but we also need to consider that these concerns aren't entirely baseless either.

    Also, I saw a close up of Answer and he has that really weird SF5-Ibuki face cover design going on. Idk, it's hard to explain, but it looks really bad; so maybe that SF5 comparison wasn't so bad after all ;)
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • SkieghSkiegh I am Ryudo Unit 2R Joined: Posts: 383
    I understand Drunkards's concern, but I think he's blowing it a little out of proportion by making it equivalent to SFV. SFV literally took ALL options away. What's going on this patch is a small loss to already strong kits. Now some of them are questionable, and whether or not there is more to it that ArcSys is keeping stashed up their sleeve remains to be seen, but it's not like this game suddenly lost all of it's mechanics, you have to spend meter to using gatling chains, and RCs now cost 100% meter. None of that happened (thank god).

    I'm kind of a fan of what they're doing to Raven, because he honestly did need a redesign. His main mechanic wasn't even being used, and he was so braindead and auto-pilot as a character. Glad to see him have a more unique approach now. Millia as well, I absolutely have always hated that she converted into a knockdown on literally every-fuckin-hit, no matter where or how, it always converted into a knockdown. Hated that from the moment it was conceptualized. It's one thing if it's certain hits or from resources or literally anything, so long as it's not EVERY stray hit.

    Far as neutral goes, still leads to a lot of reward and more often than not a knockdown into oki for most characters. Universally, you can always play aerial combos down and go for throws on techs to get a knockdown in the air. Not to mention, one counter-hit in neutral or even just a stray hit from a lot of things can lead to most of someone's life. I'd say it's still going to be a pretty rewarding most of the time.

    I mean... I play Jam so, can you tell me what it's like to get a knockdown from an air combo? I've never experienced it unless I already got the knockdown and sacrificed my oki to get it. Ya'll don't know what it's like to have poverty air conversion in damage and oki until you play Jam. Let me kick you with my kicks that do two damage from scaling, and then fall back down to the ground, while you tech away for free. Gotta stop short just to get SHIT.
    To be honest it feels like a nerf for the sake of nerfing unless there is something big that I am not noticing about his changes. Hell change for the sake of change why did they strict up the input for WIld Throw. Is this already a universal thing that I haven't noticed in effect already for everybody else?

    Well, GG as a whole likes strict inputs, so it's not even against their own input leniency to have had it been that way from the start. Another option is maybe you could become throw invincible for a bit by doing to a diagonal by canceling the pre-jump frames? Could also be people accidentally getting it as well. *Shrugs* I'm a fan of stricter inputs as I hate input leniency, so I'm a fan of any change like this. Clean inputs for life.

    The alteration to Sol's 5K is the weirdest change to be honest though. Since, as it has been said, he hasn't exactly been dominating. I don't think the "it's always been that way" excuse is very good for complaining about it, since change is how the future is made. However, "why are they changing it" is also a very potent question, that needs answering. I want to believe they are keeping some patch changes hidden, because that is such a random change as a whole.
    I don't see how "oki" isn't a playstyle in this case.

    *Ramblings about nothing, read at your own risk*


    I think terming it a playstyle is perhaps a bit much, as it only begins upon successfully using another playstyle, which thus means you weren't using an "oki" playstyle to begin with. You can certainly as a player choose to burn your meter or options to go for more developed oki or oppressive pressure, sure, and that is a playstyle choice I suppose. However, I don't think terming it an "oki" playstyle is particularly apt. I would be more inclined to go with a mix-up heavy playstyle, or you could even just cement that as just an "offensive" playstyle.

    Hmm... I dunno, maybe it is one. I feel like the fact that playstyle description completely excludes neutral means that it is not a playstyle. Of course players can have multiple playstyles I suppose. Hm... -- I know exactly what you're saying by the way, I'm just wondering from an actual terminology point of view if that could actually be termed as a playstyle. It certainly is a choice, but can it be qualified as a playstyle? Seems more like a sub-category to an actual playstyle. I have no idea, and I guess it doesn't matter. I always just say my playstyle is "offensive-defensive" which I feel accurately defines what I would prioritize when given choices.

    --

    Overall, I don't think this patch is hurting the game too much, though I don't think it's particularly helping either. I mean, I main Jam, so I have no where to go but up anyway, but even my girl got very little out of this update from the change lists we've seen so far. We shall see~

    Think it's going to be a pretty lateral move patch.
    Also, I saw a close up of Answer and he has that really weird SF5-Ibuki face cover design going on. Idk, it's hard to explain, but it looks really bad; so maybe that SF5 comparison wasn't so bad after all

    A-are you complaining about a ninja character having a covered face? Is this a real complaint? I feel like it would be better to ask why Chipp is a ninja when he looks nothing like one! Moreover, he's the president. Where's his tie?
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,933
    edited March 18
    RAW_Guts wrote: »
    Sol's 5K change is extremely questionable since it's been the same forever, quite an important button, and Sol is not seeing common results competitively in the first place. Am I missing the thousands of Sol players dominating the tournament circuit with their 5K mash?
    This thread just keeps delivering

    Sol is a top 6, arguably top 5, character, and 5K was an incredibly powerful multipurpose button.

    The change is weird mostly because of the history behind the button. Post-nerf it will still be useful, just not a nearly as universal an option.
    Hell change for the sake of change why did they strict up the input for WIld Throw. Is this already a universal thing that I haven't noticed in effect already for everybody else?
    I forgot the exact reason for this change but from what I heard it's apparently a good thing.

    And if you have an issue with the change being too strict then clean up your execution. You shouldn't be getting a jump input when you do a DP motion lol
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  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,928
    Valoon wrote: »
    Sure, the game will be "fine" (though maybe it will lose some players), but a significant portion of the cast is going to be less interesting now (and weaker). If you want a change that really sums up this patch, then consider that, after 15 years, ASW randomly decided that Sol 5k should no longer be 3f

    Yeah there was a nerf to Johnny and Elphelt that made some sense but almost every other nerf still doesn't make much sense.

    I figured they were trying to push people to the A/A+ tier. Given they haven't been buffing the low tier very much I think they are trying to nerf the A tier a bit also to try and squeeze everyone in A+/B tier rather than S through C. Like nerfs to Sol & Leo don't make sense unless you consider the shit that got nerfed raped characters like Dizzy, Jam, and a few B- tier characters horribly. Most of the cast got around it fine though. It's kinda a bad balance philosophy imo. These low tier characters can't deal with it because their tool set is obviously lacking ... don't improve ... nerf because improving might require doing a new animation or two.

    Yeah the most frustrating part of all this is that Rev1 is in a really, really good spot balance-wise. They were just a few minor nerfs to some top-tiers and few buffs to low-tiers away from having an extremely balanced game. Instead, they just went ham and did a bunch of dumb shit, so who knows how the balance is going to shape up now (a smart bet would be that Ky is an easy top-tier though).

    Devs all do that for some weird reason. They probably feel like people will be mad at them if the patch note is not huge or some shit. Or they feel like they have to earn their salary.

    Valve has been patching Dota 2 for years (and with some good success on the balance imo) and then they revamped it completly recently for absolutly no reason. Nobody ever asked for this but they are like "here take this".

    Shit is crazy

    I know other genres switch up balance just for the heck of it sometimes. Stuff like buffing an underplayed (but not necessarily bad) MOBA-character just to shake up the meta is relatively common from my understanding, and it's not necessarily bad.
    The obvious difference is that a character in a MOBA is pretty easy to pick up, while FG-characters require quite a bit more investment, so I don't think it's a good approach for FGs. Which is why I'm critical towards these changes, in spite of the fact that my main is probably skyrocketing on the tier list.
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,933
    Yeah as a fan of Dota 2, it doesn't make much sense to compare their patch cycles to those of FGs. Plus changes to one Dota hero is a lot different from changes to one FG character, since the average Dota player has a wide pool of characters to choose from while the average FG player mains just one or two.
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  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    edited March 18
    Sol is not a top 6 character, and they changed his Wild Throw so that you can't make it throw invul; so it's really technically not a good thing, although I'm not going to sit here and act like it's some huge nerf either. About 5K, imo post nerf it will only really be useful as an anti-air. c.S is also 5F so I don't see why you wouldn't use that over 5K every time when it comes to pressure, frame traps, etc.

    Also, I wasn't complaining about a ninja having a covered face, I was complaining about how weird the cover looks. It has that really bad SF5-Ibuki look to it.
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,933
    Sol is incredibly strong lol. Since you like top player opinions I'm sure you could go and find some JP tier lists. He's usually high up there, sometimes even in top 5. Incredible ground and air normals, strong oki, good neutral, fast 2-hit reversal, etc. And before you say it, he's more top tier than Ky is.

    Also I was unclear before. The Wild Throw change is good change in general, not for Sol specifically. I know you weren't the one asking about that but it's a totally fine change.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,353
    Veserius wrote: »
    French Bread?

    Tecmo?

    French Bread is a small developer published by ASW. DOA5LR was a free update for anyone who owned Ultimate.

    If you're happy with your game and the small playerbase it's fine, but I guess people shouldn't cry then if nobody else wants to play or support it.
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  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    edited March 18
    Sol is incredibly strong lol. Since you like top player opinions I'm sure you could go and find some JP tier lists. He's usually high up there, sometimes even in top 5. Incredible ground and air normals, strong oki, good neutral, fast 2-hit reversal, etc. And before you say it, he's more top tier than Ky is.

    Also I was unclear before. The Wild Throw change is good change in general, not for Sol specifically. I know you weren't the one asking about that but it's a totally fine change.

    I don't agree that he is stronger than Ky at all. Sol is definitely a strong character who is usually up there on the tier lists, but he has also been steadily dropping as time goes by. I would say that Millia, Bedman, Johnny, Elphelt, Sin, Zato, Raven, Chipp, and Ky are all stronger than Sol. I would put him in a similar category as May, ie, a very strong character, but not as strong as the ones that I mentioned above (imo ofc).
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,933
    Steadily dropping? His stock has been steadily rising more than anything if you pay any attention to the game.

    Given that you earlier called Roi the "premier Sol" while Haaken was bodying the likes of Karinchu and Zadi, I'm starting to think that you don't.
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    "3) LIMITLESS (myself) --Those of you who have played me, will agree with this.. By far the most aggressive safe/style Wolverine." - Limitless, 3rd best Wolvie player in the world
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    Steadily dropping? His stock has been steadily rising more than anything if you pay any attention to the game.

    Given that you earlier called Roi the "premier Sol" while Haaken was bodying the likes of Karinchu and Zadi, I'm starting to think that you don't.

    I don't see how his stock is rising considering in SIGN he was considered top 5 but now he is hardly ever cracks the top 5. Here is the latest tier list that I've seen (from FAB): jzwblbd40v9y.jpg
    Compare that to this one from Machaboo in SIGN: http://shoryuken.com/2014/05/15/machaboo-offers-his-thoughts-on-how-characters-stack-up-in-guilty-gear-xrd-sign/
    I don't know why I'm even bothering tbh; it's impossible to have a discussion with you. You do nothing but ad hominems and red herrings.
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,933
    edited March 18
    Congrats, you have one tier list that happens to put him in top 8 instead of top 6.

    The vast majority of examples you ever give is either vague unexplained points or parroting what other players say without understanding why. I've at least tried to explain, but whatever. Also what red herrings lol
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  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    edited March 18
    Congrats, you have one tier list that happens to put him in top 8 instead of top 6.

    The vast majority of examples you ever give is either vague unexplained points or parroting what other players say without understanding why. I've at least tried to explain, but whatever. Also what red herrings lol

    I don't know what you're talking about, I always go in-depth in my arguments and I've never "parroted" another person without at least citing said person. The ironic thing is that you're the one who doesn't explain, 90% of your posts are veiled jabs at another poster or some kind of sarcasm. You're the low-tier version of Veserius tbh.
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • WeeabooWeeaboo The Dream is dead. . . Joined: Posts: 1,312
    edited March 18
    Bro! What da fuck did I step into? lol

    I don't if he gets a lot of props, but Boomcube is nice with the Slayer, man.
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,933
    edited March 18
    Tbh I'm kinda flattered to be compared to Ves

    Also Boomcube is a nice Slayer and a chill dude. Played with him some at FR and got washed lol
    Xrd: Axl || UMvC3: Magneto/Dante/Frank West
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    "3) LIMITLESS (myself) --Those of you who have played me, will agree with this.. By far the most aggressive safe/style Wolverine." - Limitless, 3rd best Wolvie player in the world
  • WeeabooWeeaboo The Dream is dead. . . Joined: Posts: 1,312
    Boomcube is a nice Slayer and a cool dude

    Fuck! I was right there near GGXrd, I should of got some games with him. . .
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,928
    I think Ky has slightly better matchups than Sol against a lot of the top tournament characters fwiw

    Sol is a way better scrub-killer though.
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,933
    edited March 19
    Ky has less polarizing MUs but Sol still wins/goes even in most of his.

    Like he's often pegged as the dude you pick to go nuts with but in reality he's incredibly good at playing a more methodical, patient style.
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    "3) LIMITLESS (myself) --Those of you who have played me, will agree with this.. By far the most aggressive safe/style Wolverine." - Limitless, 3rd best Wolvie player in the world
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    I mean, personal experience obviously enters into this too, and I feel like May beats Sol pretty easily, but Ky is one her harder MUs (maybe even her hardest MU).
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,933
    I mean, personal experience obviously enters into this too, and I feel like May beats Sol pretty easily, but Ky is one her harder MUs (maybe even her hardest MU).
    What exactly makes you think that
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    "3) LIMITLESS (myself) --Those of you who have played me, will agree with this.. By far the most aggressive safe/style Wolverine." - Limitless, 3rd best Wolvie player in the world
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    edited March 19
    I mean, personal experience obviously enters into this too, and I feel like May beats Sol pretty easily, but Ky is one her harder MUs (maybe even her hardest MU).
    What exactly makes you think that

    For Sol, I feel like May has better buttons than him on the ground and in the air (or at the very least, she has buttons that perform really well against Sol's buttons), plus he doesn't really have a legit way of stopping her get her setups out, so I think she can control the neutral in that MU pretty easily. Once she gets close I feel like she can do a decent job of keeping him locked down/force him to make a big GV/VV bet with her beach balls/dolphins. Also, when hes cornered pretty much any combo will lead into a safe jump setup, so VV isn't a huge concern. She also does a decent job of punishing 6H and 2D into whatever (she can even punish 2D>Gunflame).

    Ky is kind of the exact opposite imo. In any given situation, Ky has a button that will beat whatever button May throws out. She also can't summon in neutral because of SE. j.2H can't be used because 2H will blow it up for a huge combo. If she ever tries to summon on block, he can punish on reaction for free with stun dipper (which kind of takes away a big part of her gameplan). Long story short, he does a really amazing job of shutting down her gameplan and dominating her in neutral. Also, he is annoying for her to combo, certain combos into 2D will drop on him because he lifts up his leg in a weird way when he gets hit.
    Post edited by drunkards_walk on
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,236
    edited March 19
    May would be A tier if KY wasn't in the game. That matchup is ass. Stun dipper literally punishes every special on normal block and invalidates her entire neutral game. Not only that her normally decent normals get wrecked by KY matchup might be 7-3 at least 6.5-3.5.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,928
    edited March 19
    Yeah, coming from someone who has played both sides of that MU, Ky really shuts down a lot of May's stuff. Her only saving grace is her damage and oki, but Ky needs to make a mistake for her to get there.
    Ky has less polarizing MUs but Sol still wins/goes even in most of his.

    Like he's often pegged as the dude you pick to go nuts with but in reality he's incredibly good at playing a more methodical, patient style.

    An underappreciated aspect of Sol to be sure. I usually struggle more against the Sol players that know how to play the slow game than the Sols that go completely ham. But having the option of playing both those styles (and switch between them) is a huge boon for the character.
    Post edited by Naeras on
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    Sol is one of the coolest characters in the game to me. Imo he also forces you to learn really good GG fundamentals regarding oki and pressure because of WT and his lack of a command overhead. I don't know where the hate for him really comes from tbh
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,030
    Getting counterhit by Fafnir
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    Veserius wrote: »
    Getting counterhit by Fafnir

    lol fair enough, or when you trade with Fafnir and he still converts into a full combo.
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,928
    edited March 19
    Sol is one of the coolest characters in the game to me. Imo he also forces you to learn really good GG fundamentals regarding oki and pressure because of WT and his lack of a command overhead. I don't know where the hate for him really comes from tbh

    He has a bunch of safe on normal block specials that give huge damage on hit as well, which means it's possible to snag wins by throwing shit out. Stuff like this causes salt, especially if the character in question also has great defense, good normals and good damage.

    Most of his stuff is still punishable if your fundamentals and match-up knowledge are up to snuff, of course, but he does put you through a bunch of knowledge tests. Once you get past that hurdle he's really fun to play both as and against.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,972
    Isn't the Minions the majority of her game?
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,305
    Isn't the Minions the majority of her game?

    Guy was salty for losing some matches against me. We played some matches after and I didn't lost once with Jack O against him. Then the dude proceeded to say nonsense like "You can only win because of your minions" or "People that play Sol and Elphelt shouldn't be proud of their victory". Too bad most of the dialog are in portuguese (for some weird reason the scrub thought I was american) or else I would have more things to show here.
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  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    edited March 20
    I'm hearing a rumor that Ky lost his f.S 3H gatling; if that's true then that's kind of a huge nerf. Keep in mind there is not much evidence to back up this rumor atm. If anyone can confirm/deny I'd like to know
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,928
    He lost fS > 6H (which was the least useful gatling into 6H anyways). fS > 3H is still intact, thankfully.
  • ValoonValoon Joined: Posts: 1,628
    Veserius wrote: »
    Getting counterhit by Fafnir

    Counter hit fafnir is why I decided to learn GG with Sol.
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    [USFIV] Ken
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  • M1XM1X 04'er Joined: Posts: 84
    Valoon wrote: »
    Veserius wrote: »
    Getting counterhit by Fafnir

    Counter hit fafnir is why I decided to learn GG with Sol.

    It's why Sol's my sub.
    PSN: m1x4h
    I play Venom in Guilty Gear.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,353
    edited March 20
    I managed to earn a scrubquote from this game, yay!

    unknown.png

    That guy is a well known scrub and shitposter on Steam FG forums.
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  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,236
    edited March 21
    Honestly, after hearing some tweets from LOX I think I was underestimating the 2D buff from Jam if she can truly combo 2D after f. S always (ignoring extended hurtbox weirdness). Then she potentially has a neutral tool that actually converts into real dmg. Double puffball also gives her resourceless knockdowns so she can finally get safe jumps while holding a card or if she uses a card as a mixup still combo a knockdown after it. Combine that with the bao buff her damage while not higher will be way more consistent with much more corner carry. Jam's never had 'bad' damage more so the good combo's were a joke to perform because of how retardedly easy they were to mess up while also being the most character specific combo's in the game, combine that with having to have resources and people could burst them etc ... sad times.

    Real chance to get up to that B+ tier if the Johnny 5K and Leo 5HS nerfs are legit as those 2 moves should move her 7-3's into approaching something winnable and dmg off f.S means potentially almost even. Less worried about her then I thought we might see a non-bottom tier Jam finally. At least if Zato nerfs stay she'll for sure win that matchup, that matchup was 5-5 arguably Jam's favor in Rev1. Buffs/Nerfs poor Zato.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • ValoonValoon Joined: Posts: 1,628
    Is Mocchi the air throw/burst bait god in this game? I am watching his games and the dude is baiting like every other burst and air throws like a mad man.
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  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,305
    Honestly, after hearing some tweets from LOX I think I was underestimating the 2D buff from Jam if she can truly combo 2D after f. S always (ignoring extended hurtbox weirdness). Then she potentially has a neutral tool that actually converts into real dmg. Double puffball also gives her resourceless knockdowns so she can finally get safe jumps while holding a card or if she uses a card as a mixup still combo a knockdown after it. Combine that with the bao buff her damage while not higher will be way more consistent with much more corner carry. Jam's never had 'bad' damage more so the good combo's were a joke to perform because of how retardedly easy they were to mess up while also being the most character specific combo's in the game, combine that with havin

    Good. Jam is actually one of the most interesting and entertaining characters to watch at high level. I once watched a Jam x Milia match that gave me DBZ feelings lol.

    And does someone know any good Jack O players? I never saw her in any tournaments, so I don't even know where to start searching.
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  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 57
    edited March 21
    Honestly, after hearing some tweets from LOX I think I was underestimating the 2D buff from Jam if she can truly combo 2D after f. S always (ignoring extended hurtbox weirdness). Then she potentially has a neutral tool that actually converts into real dmg. Double puffball also gives her resourceless knockdowns so she can finally get safe jumps while holding a card or if she uses a card as a mixup still combo a knockdown after it. Combine that with the bao buff her damage while not higher will be way more consistent with much more corner carry. Jam's never had 'bad' damage more so the good combo's were a joke to perform because of how retardedly easy they were to mess up while also being the most character specific combo's in the game, combine that with havin

    Good. Jam is actually one of the most interesting and entertaining characters to watch at high level. I once watched a Jam x Milia match that gave me DBZ feelings lol.

    And does someone know any good Jack O players? I never saw her in any tournaments, so I don't even know where to start searching.

    There are plenty of good Jack-O players around. dotNova is a strong American Jack-O. Svampen, PurePure, and min have some footage floating around. Kubiwa is pretty strong as well. For a long time, mike seemed to be the premier Jack-O, but he switched to Johnny, and he played in a version where it was a lot easier to abuse house toss, so you may not find his style as applicable now as it was then. There may be a few players I'm forgetting, but those should be good starting points.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,353
    Naeras wrote: »
    Supposedly Rev2 has a new special intro between Ky and Leo:

    LEO: Who is the greatest of the Three Kings?
    SOLDIERS: High King Ky, your majesty!
    LEO: Who is the most handsome of the Three Kings?
    SOLDIERS: High King Ky, your majesty!
    LEO: DAMMIT! Can't you people take a hint?!

    KY: I'm not holding back, Leo!

    Rub it in, ArcSys...
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  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,928
    edited March 21
    Naeras wrote: »
    Supposedly Rev2 has a new special intro between Ky and Leo:

    LEO: Who is the greatest of the Three Kings?
    SOLDIERS: High King Ky, your majesty!
    LEO: Who is the most handsome of the Three Kings?
    SOLDIERS: High King Ky, your majesty!
    LEO: DAMMIT! Can't you people take a hint?!

    KY: I'm not holding back, Leo!

    Rub it in, ArcSys...

    I mean, we both know how that MU goes.
    6498d7076c.png

    Supposedly this is only going to get worse in Rev2 =.=
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