Guilty Gear Xrd -REVELATOR- one of life's gilty pleasures

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  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,817
    ilitirit wrote: »
    Are there any resources around for understanding how Baiken's Azami actually works? It has to be one of the most badly designed counter moves in the history of... counter moves.

    When I activate Azami then press P/S/H, sometimes the follow-up doesn't come out. I was told that you after activating Azami actually have to keep holding a button (any button), then press the counter. This seems to work but it's awkward as fuck.

    Do the same inputs work when you use it as a guard cancel (hold buttons before activating follow-up)? Guard cancel Azami seems more like a liability than anything else...

    You have to catch a move to have a follow-up come out. You can't hold on guard cancel until you catch a move
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    edited July 27
    Muttonman wrote: »
    You have to catch a move to have a follow-up come out. You can't hold on guard cancel until you catch a move

    Which version are you talking about? You can hold non-guard cancel Azami in neutral (not indefinitely) till it catches a move and then followup.

    If you're talking about GC Azami, are you talking about the active frames (I believe it's only 3f)? How does it work? Does it reset after every parry? In other words, if I guard cancel into counter, do the active frames reset until it stops "catching" moves? More importantly, how long do you have until the "follow up window" closes?

    EDIT: Nevermind, I'm just going to try to forget GC Azami even exists.
    Post edited by ilitirit on
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,817
    ilitirit wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    You have to catch a move to have a follow-up come out. You can't hold on guard cancel until you catch a move

    Which version are you talking about? You can hold non-guard cancel Azami in neutral (not indefinitely) till it catches a move and then followup.

    If you're talking about GC Azami, are you talking about the active frames (I believe it's only 3f)? How does it work? Does it reset after every parry? In other words, if I guard cancel into counter, do the active frames reset until it stops "catching" moves? More importantly, how long do you have until the "follow up window" closes?

    EDIT: Nevermind, I'm just going to try to forget GC Azami even exists.

    GC: You can hold on catch IIRC, but have to hold it you want to catch more. Otherwise you can cancel into a move our go to block. No clue on the size of the follow-up window but it's tight.

    The big issue is that you can GC Azami out of hitstop and waste your parry frames, but timed correctly you can punish every damn move in the game just about
  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,800
    One thin g that i noticed with my little time with Baiken is that you really need to commit to the follow up attack.
    You can't simply wait and react after you catched something, you will be punished everytime if you do that.
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  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 701
    Yeah you can't wait at all to use a follow up unless you have a read that another attack is coming and will be caught by azami. You have to learn to react to the chime and immediately hit your follow up.
  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,800
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    Yeah you can't wait at all to use a follow up unless you have a read that another attack is coming and will be caught by azami. You have to learn to react to the chime and immediately hit your follow up.

    I actually do the followup almost inmediately, assuming that it worked. (I am getting old and my reaction time is no longer what it used to be:/)
    ( •_•) IT'S NOT RAPE,
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■
    IT'S SURPRISE SEX! (⌐■_■)
    YEAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
    "Orgasm is a simile for the emotional epiphany a woman has when the shame of penetration is eclipsed by the inherent virtue of servicing a man." ~ Kromo.
    ( •_•)
    ( ಠ_ಠ)
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  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,453
    edited July 28
    Where can i find framedata for GGrev2?
    *Edit, nvm, downloaded the GunFrame app.
    GGXrdR2: Baiken
    T7:  Jin, Nina
    SFV: Juri
    USFIV: Yun Cody Guy




  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 701
    I've come to the conclusion that the current iteration of Baiken is just a bad version of Leo. There is zero reason to play this character.
  • SaandroSaandro Joined: Posts: 102
    Baiken needs her guard cancels back.
  • DangerOnTheRangerDangerOnTheRanger based TvC god Joined: Posts: 294
    edited August 1
    LockM wrote: »
    Where can i find framedata for GGrev2?
    *Edit, nvm, downloaded the GunFrame app.
    Dustloop has the frame data online if you'd rather read it on a web browser.
    Been working on this setup on and off for a month, maybe someone will have some improvements on it or critique for it. It's reasonably solid, though there's a couple options (backdash, blitz, reversal DP) that I haven't yet made a video on.


    EDIT: This one too, but I was screwing around at like 5 in the morning for kicks and giggles. I have no idea how well it works outside of it being a guaranteed meaty and what's already in the video.
    I am the salt of the earth.
    Rage is my body and salt is my blood.
    I have created over a thousand excuses.
    Unknown to winning, nor known to humility,
    Have withstood bans to write many forum rants.
    Yet, those hands will never hold that L.

    So as I play,
    UNLIMITED SALT WORKS
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    Saandro wrote: »
    Baiken needs her guard cancels back.

    I'm going to go ahead and likely put my head on the chopping block by saying that no, she really, really doesn't. I did not play the XX games, but when you hear pretty much everyone who didn't play Baiken saying that they didn't want this character back, I have to imagine that dealing with guard cancels was a uniquely frustrating experience. ArcSys therefore made the decision to take the character in a different direction, and that's what needs to be accepted.

    Give Baiken some quality-of-life and consistency improvements, primarily for Azami and wherever else Baiken players feel she needs more consistency, and she'll be fine. She doesn't need a massive overhaul and she doesn't need to be given back her guard cancels.
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 701
    I'll admit she doesn't need her old GCs back, but I feel like they gutted the soul of the character. I would like to see them back in some fasion, like say, make them cost 25 meter.

    What she really needs is her old neutral game back. Increased active frames on tatami, faster claw, better anti airs. Some of her old combo routes returning wouldn't hurt either. I feel like she would honestly be quite good if she could bully people the way she used to on top of having neutral Azami.
  • DangerOnTheRangerDangerOnTheRanger based TvC god Joined: Posts: 294
    May got changed up a fair bit from +R to Xrd. Basically everyone lost something in transition, they were trying to make the game less crazy and more streamlined. FB-esque guard cancels would neat, but there's not a lot of precedent in the game for FB-style moves. Having her old debuff effects back would be nice too, but I feel they're too weak as a super and there's the issue with FBs I just mentioned.
    I am the salt of the earth.
    Rage is my body and salt is my blood.
    I have created over a thousand excuses.
    Unknown to winning, nor known to humility,
    Have withstood bans to write many forum rants.
    Yet, those hands will never hold that L.

    So as I play,
    UNLIMITED SALT WORKS
  • SaandroSaandro Joined: Posts: 102
    Psaro wrote: »
    Saandro wrote: »
    Baiken needs her guard cancels back.

    I'm going to go ahead and likely put my head on the chopping block by saying that no, she really, really doesn't. I did not play the XX games, but when you hear pretty much everyone who didn't play Baiken saying that they didn't want this character back, I have to imagine that dealing with guard cancels was a uniquely frustrating experience. ArcSys therefore made the decision to take the character in a different direction, and that's what needs to be accepted.

    Give Baiken some quality-of-life and consistency improvements, primarily for Azami and wherever else Baiken players feel she needs more consistency, and she'll be fine. She doesn't need a massive overhaul and she doesn't need to be given back her guard cancels.

    Needs is maybe the wrong word. But in my opinion Baiken needs more than just qol improvements. Simply because she feels like she doesn't have anything unique. This might be just my opinion but she feels unfinished. They need to give her something new, that makes her play different.
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,110
    Psaro wrote: »
    Saandro wrote: »
    Baiken needs her guard cancels back.

    I'm going to go ahead and likely put my head on the chopping block by saying that no, she really, really doesn't. I did not play the XX games, but when you hear pretty much everyone who didn't play Baiken saying that they didn't want this character back, I have to imagine that dealing with guard cancels was a uniquely frustrating experience. ArcSys therefore made the decision to take the character in a different direction, and that's what needs to be accepted.

    Give Baiken some quality-of-life and consistency improvements, primarily for Azami and wherever else Baiken players feel she needs more consistency, and she'll be fine. She doesn't need a massive overhaul and she doesn't need to be given back her guard cancels.

    God forbid there's a defensive character that forces you to change your strategy, let's just make her another offensive character because GG doesn't have enough of those.
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    Saandro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    Saandro wrote: »
    Baiken needs her guard cancels back.

    I'm going to go ahead and likely put my head on the chopping block by saying that no, she really, really doesn't. I did not play the XX games, but when you hear pretty much everyone who didn't play Baiken saying that they didn't want this character back, I have to imagine that dealing with guard cancels was a uniquely frustrating experience. ArcSys therefore made the decision to take the character in a different direction, and that's what needs to be accepted.

    Give Baiken some quality-of-life and consistency improvements, primarily for Azami and wherever else Baiken players feel she needs more consistency, and she'll be fine. She doesn't need a massive overhaul and she doesn't need to be given back her guard cancels.

    Needs is maybe the wrong word. But in my opinion Baiken needs more than just qol improvements. Simply because she feels like she doesn't have anything unique. This might be just my opinion but she feels unfinished. They need to give her something new, that makes her play different.

    Guard cancels defined her back in XX, and so it's clear that their replacement, Azami, is intended to define her in this game. The general consensus, however, seems to be that Azami isn't as good as it should be. So, rather than being a defining part of her kit, it just ends up feeling like "something else she can do." An afterthought. That being the case, I think it would be appropriate to fix Azami so that it feels better and more consistent to use. I think an Azami that feels strong and rewarding would go a long way in making Baiken feel more complete. Throw in some other changes and she'll be fine.

    Of course, some people won't be happy until she gets true guard cancels back. As was pointed out above though, that's basically tough shit, because everyone lost things going in to Xrd. Ky players want to end their combos with Vapor Thrust knockdown again, Zato players want far drill FRC, force break drill and the AC shadow movelist back, Slayer wants Big Bang Upper back, etc.
    Cronopio wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    Saandro wrote: »
    Baiken needs her guard cancels back.

    I'm going to go ahead and likely put my head on the chopping block by saying that no, she really, really doesn't. I did not play the XX games, but when you hear pretty much everyone who didn't play Baiken saying that they didn't want this character back, I have to imagine that dealing with guard cancels was a uniquely frustrating experience. ArcSys therefore made the decision to take the character in a different direction, and that's what needs to be accepted.

    Give Baiken some quality-of-life and consistency improvements, primarily for Azami and wherever else Baiken players feel she needs more consistency, and she'll be fine. She doesn't need a massive overhaul and she doesn't need to be given back her guard cancels.

    God forbid there's a defensive character that forces you to change your strategy, let's just make her another offensive character because GG doesn't have enough of those.

    There's a difference between forcing someone to change their strategy, and outright denying them their gameplan. At least, that's how I've seen people describe old Baiken. Why should ArcSys keep in a mechanic that is both distinctly not fun to fight against and, frankly, antithetical to the way the game at large is played? To make it seem like every character in Xrd plays the same way is to grossly understate the nuances and unique flavor that every character brings to the game, which is to say that Baiken can be taken in a different direction and still be a fine character. Is she fine right now? No, she isn't, but this has less to do with ArcSys removing GCs and more to do with them not adequately compensating for this elsewhere. If you won't be happy unless you have guard cancels, then go play +R. Being able to say that Guilty Gear has a "defensive" character that makes everyone else want to gouge their eyeballs out isn't a good reason to keep GCs in this game.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,817
    Basically the issue is that Azami is really, really strong if you have the timing of a god owing to the fact that it's all red parry. The problem is of course that you need the timing of a god as it's super easy to fuck it up and eat 200 damage
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,453
    All i know is that i enjoy playing Baiken, she isn't too complex to wrap my head around, execution isn't too demanding either, offense is short but sweet. There is a lot more depth and potential to be found with her GC Azami for people that want to. And ofcourse i like her design and attitude.
    This ofcourse is coming from a person who's first anime fighter is basically GG Xrd. She is probably not that great of a character compared to the rest of the cast but i'm genuinely having fun, which has been a while since a FG has done that for me.

    Having said that, i might try out Millia again, didn't want to bother learning her stuff at the end of revelator only to have to relearn her stuff in Rev2.
    GGXrdR2: Baiken
    T7:  Jin, Nina
    SFV: Juri
    USFIV: Yun Cody Guy




  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,110
    GCs weren't a problem in AC, once people figured out how to play against her she became just another character. There was nothing wrong with her design and it was a breath of fresh air in a series heavily slanted towards offense. People complain about Axl a lot in this game too, some people just want everyone to be variations of rushdown.
    If I play Baiken I want good defense, for good offense there's the majority of the cast already.

    And it's not only her GCs, they messed her tatamis too. Just a bad design overall.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,396
    Cronopio wrote: »
    GCs weren't a problem in AC, once people figured out how to play against her she became just another character. There was nothing wrong with her design and it was a breath of fresh air in a series heavily slanted towards offense. People complain about Axl a lot in this game too, some people just want everyone to be variations of rushdown.
    If I play Baiken I want good defense, for good offense there's the majority of the cast already.

    And it's not only her GCs, they messed her tatamis too. Just a bad design overall.

    If you want good defense, you play Sol. Baiken wasn't just good defense she made pretty much everyone drastically adjust their gameplan just to stand a chance against her. It wasn't even remotely fun to play against. Plus GC YRC, how would that work? Imagine if Raven could cancel into his stance on block, it'd be dumb as shit, but that's the scenario we would be dealing with if Baiken had her old GC back. It's just not going to happen, and there are plenty of other (better) options to give a character a good defensive spread without giving her the old GC back
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,817
    Cronopio wrote: »
    GCs weren't a problem in AC, once people figured out how to play against her she became just another character. There was nothing wrong with her design and it was a breath of fresh air in a series heavily slanted towards offense. People complain about Axl a lot in this game too, some people just want everyone to be variations of rushdown.
    If I play Baiken I want good defense, for good offense there's the majority of the cast already.

    And it's not only her GCs, they messed her tatamis too. Just a bad design overall.

    If you want good defense, you play Sol. Baiken wasn't just good defense she made pretty much everyone drastically adjust their gameplan just to stand a chance against her. It wasn't even remotely fun to play against. Plus GC YRC, how would that work? Imagine if Raven could cancel into his stance on block, it'd be dumb as shit, but that's the scenario we would be dealing with if Baiken had her old GC back. It's just not going to happen, and there are plenty of other (better) options to give a character a good defensive spread without giving her the old GC back

    You could FRC the old GC K run, being able to YRC a GC would have been absolutely nothing new
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    Cronopio wrote: »
    GCs weren't a problem in AC, once people figured out how to play against her she became just another character. There was nothing wrong with her design and it was a breath of fresh air in a series heavily slanted towards offense. People complain about Axl a lot in this game too, some people just want everyone to be variations of rushdown.
    If I play Baiken I want good defense, for good offense there's the majority of the cast already.

    And it's not only her GCs, they messed her tatamis too. Just a bad design overall.

    What's your standard for a mechanic being "not a problem"? I don't think anyone here is trying to make a case that Baiken's design in the old games was somehow broken in any way. No, she wasn't a game defining character. The point is that no one had a fun time dealing with that shit. There's a reason people were joking that Baiken's announcement was great news for Baiken players and people who don't know the game and terrible news for everyone else. If there were not such widespread contempt for GCs, ArcSys would not have felt it necessary to change such a core part of her design. The fact that they did should tell you something.

    Now, did they fuck her up elsewhere too? Sure. I won't disagree with that. It's pretty clear that the other elements of her kit haven't been tuned up enough to compensate for losing guard cancels. But the point stands. You haven't really given a reason why guard cancels should be in the game, you've basically only argued that they didn't break the game before, therefore they shouldn't be a problem now. That by itself means nothing, because Xrd is a tuned down game in general. Things that were particularly strong in the old games would be considered broken in this game. You're right; GCs weren't a problem in +R, and neither was Eddie having free, mid-blockstring unblockables apparently, as he was decisively mediocre in that game. Can I have those back too, then? As I've already said, there are many, many options that characters had in the old games that were removed for the sake of having a more controlled balance. Things that were okay before aren't always okay now. What makes GCs so special that they shouldn't be subject to the same scrutiny, especially given how much people don't enjoy fighting against it?

    Well, you say that if you play Baiken, you want good defense. That's not compelling to me for a couple reasons. First, strong defensive options are one thing; defensive options that deny your gameplan literally at no resource cost are another extreme entirely. Second, Baiken doesn't truly need GCs to have strong defense, since, as far as I'm aware, Baiken is still the only character in the game with the privilege of being able to cancel her guard without meter. Give Azami some usability and consistency buffs and she should be good to go. Her concept can still function without having full-fledged GCs if done properly. God forbid you have to actually put work into a high skill cap mechanic first before you can get out of your opponent's offense for free, and possibly net massive damage on a punish while you're at it, though, I guess.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,396
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Cronopio wrote: »
    GCs weren't a problem in AC, once people figured out how to play against her she became just another character. There was nothing wrong with her design and it was a breath of fresh air in a series heavily slanted towards offense. People complain about Axl a lot in this game too, some people just want everyone to be variations of rushdown.
    If I play Baiken I want good defense, for good offense there's the majority of the cast already.

    And it's not only her GCs, they messed her tatamis too. Just a bad design overall.

    If you want good defense, you play Sol. Baiken wasn't just good defense she made pretty much everyone drastically adjust their gameplan just to stand a chance against her. It wasn't even remotely fun to play against. Plus GC YRC, how would that work? Imagine if Raven could cancel into his stance on block, it'd be dumb as shit, but that's the scenario we would be dealing with if Baiken had her old GC back. It's just not going to happen, and there are plenty of other (better) options to give a character a good defensive spread without giving her the old GC back

    You could FRC the old GC K run, being able to YRC a GC would have been absolutely nothing new

    Just out of curiosity do you think stuff like se frc and hammerfall frc was as good in XX as it is now?
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,372 mod
    I thought Guilty Gear had a diverse roster of characters? Now it sounds like it's all a lie. Just diverse ways to go HAM.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,817
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Cronopio wrote: »
    GCs weren't a problem in AC, once people figured out how to play against her she became just another character. There was nothing wrong with her design and it was a breath of fresh air in a series heavily slanted towards offense. People complain about Axl a lot in this game too, some people just want everyone to be variations of rushdown.
    If I play Baiken I want good defense, for good offense there's the majority of the cast already.

    And it's not only her GCs, they messed her tatamis too. Just a bad design overall.

    If you want good defense, you play Sol. Baiken wasn't just good defense she made pretty much everyone drastically adjust their gameplan just to stand a chance against her. It wasn't even remotely fun to play against. Plus GC YRC, how would that work? Imagine if Raven could cancel into his stance on block, it'd be dumb as shit, but that's the scenario we would be dealing with if Baiken had her old GC back. It's just not going to happen, and there are plenty of other (better) options to give a character a good defensive spread without giving her the old GC back

    You could FRC the old GC K run, being able to YRC a GC would have been absolutely nothing new

    Just out of curiosity do you think stuff like se frc and hammerfall frc was as good in XX as it is now?

    Generally approach stuff is better now due to the slowdown letting you get right in their face with lots of lockdown, but close range mixup stuff is worse for the amount of time the other guy had to realize that it's a mixup situation.
  • SaandroSaandro Joined: Posts: 102
    Psaro wrote: »

    Of course, some people won't be happy until she gets true guard cancels back. As was pointed out above though, that's basically tough shit, because everyone lost things going in to Xrd. Ky players want to end their combos with Vapor Thrust knockdown again, Zato players want far drill FRC, force break drill and the AC shadow movelist back, Slayer wants Big Bang Upper back, etc.

    I don't think these are good comparisons. The characters still largely play the same, even with some options removed. Imagine if Slayer got dandy step removed, his dash changed into a normal run and given a shoryuken as compensation. Also, for someone who said he didn't play during XX you sure do have a strong opinion on how unfun Baiken was to play against.

    Anyway, I realize GC's are (probably) not coming back. Like I said, I just think Baiken needs something to make her playstyle more unique.
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    The point is that no one had a fun time dealing with that shit.

    Does anyone have fun dealing with other characters bullshit? Do you have fun dealing with Jack-Os minions or Chipp's teleports? People complain for days about both those characters. You really can't judge a mechanic's worth by what people losing to it say.

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC), then we should add more nonsense because, well, why the fuck not, basically. I don't think I have to explain why that's a pretty terrible design and balancing philosophy. You wouldn't ease the pain of a wound by pouring salt on it, after all. If we're going to put bullshit in the game, then let's make sure that the bullshit serves an actual purpose and not "just because." GCs no longer do, imo, because I firmly believe that Baiken can be the defensive juggernaut she's always been without them. If you feel that she deserves them and can't be who she is without them, then fine, agree to disagree, but if memory serves me correctly you even admitted earlier that she doesn't truly need them.

    Saandro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Of course, some people won't be happy until she gets true guard cancels back. As was pointed out above though, that's basically tough shit, because everyone lost things going in to Xrd. Ky players want to end their combos with Vapor Thrust knockdown again, Zato players want far drill FRC, force break drill and the AC shadow movelist back, Slayer wants Big Bang Upper back, etc.

    I don't think these are good comparisons. The characters still largely play the same, even with some options removed. Imagine if Slayer got dandy step removed, his dash changed into a normal run and given a shoryuken as compensation. Also, for someone who said he didn't play during XX you sure do have a strong opinion on how unfun Baiken was to play against.

    Anyway, I realize GC's are (probably) not coming back. Like I said, I just think Baiken needs something to make her playstyle more unique.

    I think they're perfectly fine comparisons. If you honestly believe that removing GCs in favor of Azami is comparable to giving Slayer a run and a DP and taking away Dandy Step, I honestly don't know what to tell you. There's a difference between fundamentally altering how a character plays, and reworking a character's kit. With Baiken, the essential flavor is still the same: you get to cancel your guard without meter, something no other character can do. In XX, you could just do an attack; in this game, you have to counter something first. If that's equivalent to basically turning Ky into a rushdown character or Jam into a zoner then I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I think Baiken's defensive playstyle will be unique enough if given the proper adjustments.
  • jblairjblair remember to cancel your preorder! Joined: Posts: 1,393
    You guys are fuckin babies if you "didn't have fun" dealing with baiken in XX. The character had really weak neutral and was able to compete because of the guard cancel meta game. I have plenty of fun trying to bait/punish the various guard cancels. Just because you can't auto pilot your pressure vs baiken doesn't mean it wasn't fun.
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    edited August 3
    Great. You had fun dealing with guard cancels. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at; some people can just have different tastes, after all. You enjoy fighting GCs, some people enjoy playing low tier for the sake of playing low tier, and I'm sure some people enjoy playing Superman 64 and sticking their dicks in wall sockets. Not everyone has to like or dislike the same things. Just speak for yourself instead of thinking that everyone who doesn't like what you like must be "fuckin babies."

    As for me, I'm done arguing and am just going to agree to disagree. For the record: I don't think GCs are broken or unbalanced or unfair or anything like that. They were removed because most people didn't enjoy fighting against it and because Baiken's old style is just too antithetical to the way the game at large is played. You can disagree with me all you want, but at the end of the day, there are plenty of players who will you tell you the same thing, and Daisuke himself has said that he didn't like that Baiken could play a non-committal, turtle style either, so ArcSys reworked her to take her in a different direction, while still having a guard cancel option to keep the basic flavor the same. If that makes Daisuke, Pachi, and everyone who didn't like old Baiken babies, then so be it. I simply don't believe she needs them back, as I think her current design can work and still feel like Baiken if they improve Azami, and improve her consistency and options in neutral. There's really no sense in arguing over this anyway, since ArcSys is almost certainly never bringing them back. Not to mention that the time that Baiken players spend arguing for GCs to come back is time that they could have spent making Xrd Baiken work for them while ArcSys hopefully works on changes that she actually needs.
  • jblairjblair remember to cancel your preorder! Joined: Posts: 1,393
    She probably shouldn't have them back in Xrd, but Xrd is a pretty different game, and I don't know why "IT WASN'T FUN" is your argument, lol

    Azami will probably become more rewarding as time goes on. She could use a little buff to her neutral game, probably more active tatami or something.
  • jblairjblair remember to cancel your preorder! Joined: Posts: 1,393
    Psaro wrote: »
    Daisuke himself has said that he didn't like that Baiken could play a non-committal style.

    Just re-read the interview to make sure that you pulled "non-committal" out of your ass. Guard cancels were a huge commitment every time.

  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    edited August 4
    Nice strawman. I think it's pretty clear that when I said non-committal and turtle back to back before "style," I'm referring to style, not guard cancels. I mean, it's literally right there, in what you quoted lol. Where do you see me referring to "guard cancels" in that sentence? Not my fault you apparently don't know how to read. You're right. Daisuke may not have actually said "non-committal," but he did go so far as to say she was a turtle character, and if you're actually going to sit here and argue that turtling isn't a low commitment style then... I don't know what to tell you. As I said, I'm done arguing, but don't misrepresent my argument.
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,137
    This whole argument is stupid.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,372 mod
    Psaro wrote: »
    Nice strawman. I think it's pretty clear that when I said non-committal and turtle back to back before "style," I'm referring to style, not guard cancels. I mean, it's literally right there, in what you quoted lol. Where do you see me referring to "guard cancels" in that sentence? Not my fault you apparently don't know how to read. You're right. Daisuke may not have actually said "non-committal," but he did go so far as to say she was a turtle character, and if you're actually going to sit here and argue that turtling isn't a low commitment style then... I don't know what to tell you. As I said, I'm done arguing, but don't misrepresent my argument.

    It's pretty clear in that article that Daisuke said that he didn't want Baiken to play as defensively and play more offensively. Which if people are complaining about why guard cancels are less powerful or require too much more of a read to utilize, what Daisuke said probably has something to do with it. Safe to say that her current gameplay is designed around the changes to force her to be more engaging and less counter attack focused.

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  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,800
    What is stupid is people passing their preferences as facts, it is fucking sad.
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  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    Psaro wrote: »
    Nice strawman. I think it's pretty clear that when I said non-committal and turtle back to back before "style," I'm referring to style, not guard cancels. I mean, it's literally right there, in what you quoted lol. Where do you see me referring to "guard cancels" in that sentence? Not my fault you apparently don't know how to read. You're right. Daisuke may not have actually said "non-committal," but he did go so far as to say she was a turtle character, and if you're actually going to sit here and argue that turtling isn't a low commitment style then... I don't know what to tell you. As I said, I'm done arguing, but don't misrepresent my argument.

    It's pretty clear in that article that Daisuke said that he didn't want Baiken to play as defensively and play more offensively. Which if people are complaining about why guard cancels are less powerful or require too much more of a read to utilize, what Daisuke said probably has something to do with it. Safe to say that her current gameplay is designed around the changes to force her to be more engaging and less counter attack focused.

    This was pretty much my point. Never did I say guard cancels were non-committal. A character can have a turtle style and yet still have high commit options. Case in point: Guile Flash Kick. I was only paraphrasing what Daisuke said. Which, as you say, is that he didn't like Baiken's overtly defensive style and wanted to move her to a more active style.
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 701
    Psaro wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    The point is that no one had a fun time dealing with that shit.

    Does anyone have fun dealing with other characters bullshit? Do you have fun dealing with Jack-Os minions or Chipp's teleports? People complain for days about both those characters. You really can't judge a mechanic's worth by what people losing to it say.

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC), then we should add more nonsense because, well, why the fuck not, basically. I don't think I have to explain why that's a pretty terrible design and balancing philosophy. You wouldn't ease the pain of a wound by pouring salt on it, after all. If we're going to put bullshit in the game, then let's make sure that the bullshit serves an actual purpose and not "just because." GCs no longer do, imo, because I firmly believe that Baiken can be the defensive juggernaut she's always been without them. If you feel that she deserves them and can't be who she is without them, then fine, agree to disagree, but if memory serves me correctly you even admitted earlier that she doesn't truly need them.

    You're right I did say I don't think she truly needs them to be good, I just thought your argument for their removal was ridiculous.

  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,396
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,396
    edited August 4
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.

    I mean, to me it is kind of irrelevant why he feels strong (whether it is because he got buffed or because others got nerfed), the fact of the matter is he is way too good in this iteration. Using history as an indication, Rev1 Millia was apparently considered too strong, but how is Chipp really different than her? He trades slightly worse conversions for better buttons, better neutral, better damage, and 2 of the game's best YRCs. Gamma Beast needs to go, I don't think anyone disputes that, and most likely it made it in to the game as a mistake. However, imo, he is still the best character in the game with that removed, so I think some other changes need to be discussed as well.

    I also think that K Teleport puts other YRC options like SE and Rensen to shame. SE and Rensen are strong, just do it options that don't require a lot of commitment and give Ky/Axl advantage in neutral/pressure, but K teleport is the lowest commitment and biggest reward of any of them. It will literally whiff punish basically any move in the game, and allows Chipp to get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. This is amplified by the fact that Chipp is, imo, undoubtedly the most meter efficient character in the game. As it stands right now, he can basically just save all of his meter for K Teleport/Gamma YRC, and then if he happens to get you in the corner he will build enough for his Kunai super (aka the game over super). Stuff like SE and Hammerfall YRC, is definitely really good, but imo it's just a stronger version of an old beast, K teleport yrc is an entirely new animal, that has no place in the game

    Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game, and then run mix up on them until they are dead. It's an interesting archetype but as it stands right now, K Teleport will do literally all the work for you as long as you have 25 meter. I firmly believe that if you fixed Gamma Beast and made K Teleport PRC, you would still be looking at a really strong, albeit way more fair character
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.

    I mean, to me it is kind of irrelevant why he feels strong (whether it is because he got buffed or because others got nerfed), the fact of the matter is he is way too good in this iteration. Using history as an indication, Rev1 Millia was apparently considered too strong, but how is Chipp really different than her? He trades slightly worse conversions for better buttons, better neutral, better damage, and 2 of the game's best YRCs. Gamma Beast needs to go, I don't think anyone disputes that, and most likely it made it in to the game as a mistake. However, imo, he is still the best character in the game with that removed, so I think some other changes need to be discussed as well.

    I also think that K Teleport puts other YRC options like SE and Rensen to shame. SE and Rensen are strong, just do it options that don't require a lot of commitment and give Ky/Axl advantage in neutral/pressure, but K teleport is the lowest commitment and biggest reward of any of them. It will literally whiff punish basically any move in the game, and allows Chipp to get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. This is amplified by the fact that Chipp is, imo, undoubtedly the most meter efficient character in the game. As it stands right now, he can basically just save all of his meter for K Teleport/Gamma YRC, and then if he happens to get you in the corner he will build enough for his Kunai super (aka the game over super).

    Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game, and then run mix up on them until they are dead. It's an interesting archetype but as it stands right now, K Teleport will do literally all the work for you as long as you have 25 meter. I firmly believe that if you fixed Gamma Beast and made K Teleport PRC, you would still be looking at a really strong, albeit way more fair character

    Well, I mean, sure, it really doesn't matter why a character feels strong, but really what I'm getting at there is that this is one of those cases, imo, where a character ends up being top tier sort of by default; that is, because other characters are not as good, rather than because they are that good themselves. That's the thing; I may be wrong, but I don't see Chipp as a major problem character. Another way of putting this is that I don't believe Rev2 Chipp is any stronger than Rev1 top tiers. In fact I feel that outside of Gamma Beast, Rev2 Chipp is the most balanced of all the top tiers Xrd has had up to this point. I get the feeling though that just how good Chipp really is is a subject that we just won't see eye to eye on, so I'm willing to concede this point and agree to disagree.

    I personally don't agree with the notion that "if Gamma Beast goes, he's still the best, so more changes are needed." At the end of the day, someone has to be the best character, so I don't see that as a compelling reason to further nerf him if he's not unbalanced enough to warrant it. Like I said, I do agree that some other tweaks could be justified, but personally - and I think a lot of people would support this - I would rather see other characters brought up to be closer to his level.

    Also, I think that you are overrating K Teleport YRC, to an extent. I've seen plenty of high level Chipp matches, and I can tell you that "K Teleport will do literally all the work" is not representative of what's happening in those matches. If anything, I'm seeing way more Gamma YRC than K Teleport YRC. That's the thing, I think. K Teleport YRC is obviously immensely strong; as you point out, it allows him to whiff punish the world, and it turns the air into lava. There's no hitbox attached, though. Other YRC options like SE, Rensen, and Gamma allow you to claim an entire portion of the screen and immediately take control of the pace of the match. K Teleport is an insanely powerful movement option, but I'm still skeptical that it's just flat out better than everything else when it doesn't even do the same things as other options. I'm just not seeing top Chipps default to it that way. You are more than welcome to present evidence to the contrary though.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,396
    edited August 4
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.

    I mean, to me it is kind of irrelevant why he feels strong (whether it is because he got buffed or because others got nerfed), the fact of the matter is he is way too good in this iteration. Using history as an indication, Rev1 Millia was apparently considered too strong, but how is Chipp really different than her? He trades slightly worse conversions for better buttons, better neutral, better damage, and 2 of the game's best YRCs. Gamma Beast needs to go, I don't think anyone disputes that, and most likely it made it in to the game as a mistake. However, imo, he is still the best character in the game with that removed, so I think some other changes need to be discussed as well.

    I also think that K Teleport puts other YRC options like SE and Rensen to shame. SE and Rensen are strong, just do it options that don't require a lot of commitment and give Ky/Axl advantage in neutral/pressure, but K teleport is the lowest commitment and biggest reward of any of them. It will literally whiff punish basically any move in the game, and allows Chipp to get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. This is amplified by the fact that Chipp is, imo, undoubtedly the most meter efficient character in the game. As it stands right now, he can basically just save all of his meter for K Teleport/Gamma YRC, and then if he happens to get you in the corner he will build enough for his Kunai super (aka the game over super).

    Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game, and then run mix up on them until they are dead. It's an interesting archetype but as it stands right now, K Teleport will do literally all the work for you as long as you have 25 meter. I firmly believe that if you fixed Gamma Beast and made K Teleport PRC, you would still be looking at a really strong, albeit way more fair character

    Well, I mean, sure, it really doesn't matter why a character feels strong, but really what I'm getting at there is that this is one of those cases, imo, where a character ends up being top tier sort of by default; that is, because other characters are not as good, rather than because they are that good themselves. That's the thing; I may be wrong, but I don't see Chipp as a major problem character. Another way of putting this is that I don't believe Rev2 Chipp is any stronger than Rev1 top tiers. In fact I feel that outside of Gamma Beast, Rev2 Chipp is the most balanced of all the top tiers Xrd has had up to this point. I get the feeling though that just how good Chipp really is is a subject that we just won't see eye to eye on, so I'm willing to concede this point and agree to disagree.

    I personally don't agree with the notion that "if Gamma Beast goes, he's still the best, so more changes are needed." At the end of the day, someone has to be the best character, so I don't see that as a compelling reason to further nerf him if he's not unbalanced enough to warrant it. Like I said, I do agree that some other tweaks could be justified, but personally - and I think a lot of people would support this - I would rather see other characters brought up to be closer to his level.

    Also, I think that you are overrating K Teleport YRC, to an extent. I've seen plenty of high level Chipp matches, and I can tell you that "K Teleport will do literally all the work" is not representative of what's happening in those matches. If anything, I'm seeing way more Gamma YRC than K Teleport YRC. That's the thing, I think. K Teleport YRC is obviously immensely strong; as you point out, it allows him to whiff punish the world, and it turns the air into lava. There's no hitbox attached, though. Other YRC options like SE, Rensen, and Gamma allow you to claim an entire portion of the screen and immediately take control of the pace of the match. K Teleport is an insanely powerful movement option, but I'm still skeptical that it's just flat out better than everything else when it doesn't even do the same things as other options. I'm just not seeing top Chipps default to it that way. You are more than welcome to present evidence to the contrary though.
    Imo he is unbalanced though. The only real weakness he has in Xrd is that he has low health. You absolutely cannot call him a low damage character anymore, his mixup is insanely strong in the corner, and with 25 meter he controls nearly the entire screen. AC Chipp, and maybe to a lesser extent ACR Chipp was a fair character (or at least, worse than rev2 chipp imo) because he had a lot of really strong tools (although nothing nearly as strong as Gamma Beast or teleport yrc) but did low damage and took lots of damage. That's just not the case anymore though. He isn't working as designed imo because of how strong his YRC options are.

    I guess you can say "just bring other people to his level", but I don't think the existence of something as dumb as teleport yrc means we should give other characters a bunch of dumb shit too. I suppose we will agree to disagree there.

    Speaking to your last point, I think you are seeing more gamma yrc than k teleport yrc because gamma beast is broken, but that doesn't mean k teleport isn't absurdly good. What that means is that Chipp now has the two best yrc options in the game. Sure, there isn't a hitbox attached to it, but it gives a character with immensely good close range buttons a free way in for 25 meter, and once he gets in, he has always been a character that can carry that momentum all the way to victory; which is why it's really silly that he has that tool.

    Like I said before, Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game through whiff punishing and insane movement options. However, a tool like teleport yrc means he gets to whiff punish anything AND get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. It requires no commitment, gives huge reward, it just doesn't belong in the game. Stuff like SE Yrc is amazing, during pressure you just have to hold it and it gives Ky auto advantage in neutral (although it doesn't give him a free in from anywhere on the screen like teleport), but K teleport is better for Chipp because it whiff punishes everything and puts him exactly where he wants to be, he just needs to spend 25 meter. I also really disagree that top Chipp players dont default to it; it's probably the strongest tool in the game, and players definitely use it (why wouldn't you?)

    Post edited by drunkards_walk on
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 701
    Chipp feels like he is in a good spot to me. The gamma blade buff could maybe be reverted, but other than that I think he is where he needs to be. They just need to buff the lower tier characters. I really don't think they're are a whole lot of nerfs that should be doled out to any of the top tiers.
  • jblairjblair remember to cancel your preorder! Joined: Posts: 1,393
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,396
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Well imo, he's always been a character with insanely strong tools (DP, 3f normal, great fast normals, etc), but in the past he's never had (or needed) anything as immensely powerful as K Teleport YRC or Gamma Beast. Those are the things making him too good. If I told you I was creating a character that was so strong up close that, given the right opportunity, he can carry that momentum to a win and I was also giving him a YRC'able projectile that best case scenario hits/trades for a full combo+kd or worst case is +5 on block and was also giving him a teleport that recovers almost instantly right next to the opponent ready to attack, you would think I was making a Mugen game.

    I'm sorry, but K teleport yrc is so garbage. It's honestly one of the dumber things I've ever seen in a fighting game. I just hope with them fixing some YRC issues going from Rev1 to Rev2 they will also start to look at some problem moves as well, and k teleport is the biggest offender
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,453
    I've been grinding in GGxrdR2 for the past few days now with Baiken(yes another person playing Baiken) and for me the hardest thing about her executionally is not the combos. It's the the IAD Tatami and doing this post knockdown. After a throw, small dash, IAD Tatami, getting a j.D knockdown, AD, land, IAD Tatami. I can get Kire Tatami (TK Tatami + airdash)on p1 side around 95% of the time with ease, on p2 side i struggle.

    The IAD Tatami requires so many inputs in the same direction it's messing me up espeially when you have to do action before it such as a small dash, it becomes like 66, 96, 236+k. I've always been terrible at inputs requiring many inputs towards one direction, something as dash like inputs.

    It's really hurting me as i cannot get a flow going if i keep dropping these IAD Tatami's post knockdown midscreen. I might have to relearn how i hold my joystick or input dash command or airdashes. I cannot get a solid grip fast enough to input complex motions after an airdash. If i see one more iad j.k i'm gonna rage lol.
    GGXrdR2: Baiken
    T7:  Jin, Nina
    SFV: Juri
    USFIV: Yun Cody Guy




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