Guilty Gear Xrd -REVELATOR- one of life's gilty pleasures

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  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 21,066
    I just think Baiken needs better Tatami right now. Sol can 6HS right through it.
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  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 701
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    edited August 5
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.

    I mean, to me it is kind of irrelevant why he feels strong (whether it is because he got buffed or because others got nerfed), the fact of the matter is he is way too good in this iteration. Using history as an indication, Rev1 Millia was apparently considered too strong, but how is Chipp really different than her? He trades slightly worse conversions for better buttons, better neutral, better damage, and 2 of the game's best YRCs. Gamma Beast needs to go, I don't think anyone disputes that, and most likely it made it in to the game as a mistake. However, imo, he is still the best character in the game with that removed, so I think some other changes need to be discussed as well.

    I also think that K Teleport puts other YRC options like SE and Rensen to shame. SE and Rensen are strong, just do it options that don't require a lot of commitment and give Ky/Axl advantage in neutral/pressure, but K teleport is the lowest commitment and biggest reward of any of them. It will literally whiff punish basically any move in the game, and allows Chipp to get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. This is amplified by the fact that Chipp is, imo, undoubtedly the most meter efficient character in the game. As it stands right now, he can basically just save all of his meter for K Teleport/Gamma YRC, and then if he happens to get you in the corner he will build enough for his Kunai super (aka the game over super).

    Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game, and then run mix up on them until they are dead. It's an interesting archetype but as it stands right now, K Teleport will do literally all the work for you as long as you have 25 meter. I firmly believe that if you fixed Gamma Beast and made K Teleport PRC, you would still be looking at a really strong, albeit way more fair character

    Well, I mean, sure, it really doesn't matter why a character feels strong, but really what I'm getting at there is that this is one of those cases, imo, where a character ends up being top tier sort of by default; that is, because other characters are not as good, rather than because they are that good themselves. That's the thing; I may be wrong, but I don't see Chipp as a major problem character. Another way of putting this is that I don't believe Rev2 Chipp is any stronger than Rev1 top tiers. In fact I feel that outside of Gamma Beast, Rev2 Chipp is the most balanced of all the top tiers Xrd has had up to this point. I get the feeling though that just how good Chipp really is is a subject that we just won't see eye to eye on, so I'm willing to concede this point and agree to disagree.

    I personally don't agree with the notion that "if Gamma Beast goes, he's still the best, so more changes are needed." At the end of the day, someone has to be the best character, so I don't see that as a compelling reason to further nerf him if he's not unbalanced enough to warrant it. Like I said, I do agree that some other tweaks could be justified, but personally - and I think a lot of people would support this - I would rather see other characters brought up to be closer to his level.

    Also, I think that you are overrating K Teleport YRC, to an extent. I've seen plenty of high level Chipp matches, and I can tell you that "K Teleport will do literally all the work" is not representative of what's happening in those matches. If anything, I'm seeing way more Gamma YRC than K Teleport YRC. That's the thing, I think. K Teleport YRC is obviously immensely strong; as you point out, it allows him to whiff punish the world, and it turns the air into lava. There's no hitbox attached, though. Other YRC options like SE, Rensen, and Gamma allow you to claim an entire portion of the screen and immediately take control of the pace of the match. K Teleport is an insanely powerful movement option, but I'm still skeptical that it's just flat out better than everything else when it doesn't even do the same things as other options. I'm just not seeing top Chipps default to it that way. You are more than welcome to present evidence to the contrary though.
    Imo he is unbalanced though. The only real weakness he has in Xrd is that he has low health. You absolutely cannot call him a low damage character anymore, his mixup is insanely strong in the corner, and with 25 meter he controls nearly the entire screen. AC Chipp, and maybe to a lesser extent ACR Chipp was a fair character (or at least, worse than rev2 chipp imo) because he had a lot of really strong tools (although nothing nearly as strong as Gamma Beast or teleport yrc) but did low damage and took lots of damage. That's just not the case anymore though. He isn't working as designed imo because of how strong his YRC options are.

    I guess you can say "just bring other people to his level", but I don't think the existence of something as dumb as teleport yrc means we should give other characters a bunch of dumb shit too. I suppose we will agree to disagree there.

    Speaking to your last point, I think you are seeing more gamma yrc than k teleport yrc because gamma beast is broken, but that doesn't mean k teleport isn't absurdly good. What that means is that Chipp now has the two best yrc options in the game. Sure, there isn't a hitbox attached to it, but it gives a character with immensely good close range buttons a free way in for 25 meter, and once he gets in, he has always been a character that can carry that momentum all the way to victory; which is why it's really silly that he has that tool.

    Like I said before, Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game through whiff punishing and insane movement options. However, a tool like teleport yrc means he gets to whiff punish anything AND get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. It requires no commitment, gives huge reward, it just doesn't belong in the game. Stuff like SE Yrc is amazing, during pressure you just have to hold it and it gives Ky auto advantage in neutral (although it doesn't give him a free in from anywhere on the screen like teleport), but K teleport is better for Chipp because it whiff punishes everything and puts him exactly where he wants to be, he just needs to spend 25 meter. I also really disagree that top Chipp players dont default to it; it's probably the strongest tool in the game, and players definitely use it (why wouldn't you?)

    I was curious about this, so I actually did a little bit of research. I went back to watch some matches of Samitto Chipp to see how often he actually used K Teleport YRC. To make sure Gamma Beast wasn't an issue, I made it a point to watch matches from Rev1. In roughly 18 minutes of matches, which amounted to 5 best 3-out-of-5 matches, I saw K Teleport YRC a grand total of 5 times. Those matches were against Raven, Venom, Elphelt, Venom again, and Ramlethal. He never used it at all against Raven or Ramlethal, used it once at the literal end of the entire match against Venom, twice against Elphelt, and twice against Venom the second time. Now, you can definitely argue "small sample size," but a.) I don't have that kind of time (you're welcome to put in time to find a counter-example) and b.) I'd have to say that in any case, if I were told that I had the best tool in the game, I would probably be using it more than once a whole match on average. The vast majority of Samitto's meter went towards neutral YRC, button YRC OS, Alpha Blade YRC, RCs, and Ryuuyanagi.

    Now, none of this is to say that K Teleport YRC isn't very strong, but when you say things like "it will literally do all the work" and "it's easily the best option in the game," I can't help but get the sense that we're dealing with a situation where once Chipp gets 25, you may as well just put down the controller because he's gonna K Teleport YRC every time, get in for free and run the setplay to death. That's why I said that I feel you are overrating it somewhat. You and I both know that at the highest levels of play, things are never that simple, and those matches I mentioned speak for themselves. In particular, Samitto seemed to be using K Teleport YRC on a read that he was going to get around something in neutral, and to create chaos and advantage in end-of-match scenarios where one or both characters are near death. Obviously it's a fairly low commit read, so yeah, you're right, why not use it, but you do have to spend meter for it, and accept that you won't build as much meter after using it (people sometimes say that due to the Tension Pulse hit, a YRC costs more like 40% meter overall, rather than a flat 25%), and I think Chipp would really love to keep his meter for Ryuuyanagi. Plus, you're relying on your opponent whiffing something to get tangible reward, whereas something like SE or Rensen or Zwei YRC just immediately claims space for you. Chipp can use it to get closer with the added benefit of YRC's faux frame advantage, but the following offense is by no means guaranteed. Hell, in those matches, it felt like Samitto was whiff punishing more things with no-YRC-H-Teleport than with K Teleport YRC.

    The conclusion I draw from all this is that K Teleport YRC is really just an easy scapegoat for a broader issue (that you actually hinted at yourself when you said he has the two best YRCs) which is that Chipp with YRC in general is ridiculous. At that point though I think it comes back to discussing whether YRC needs to be changed. They're never going to get rid of the slow down, but one has to wonder if it's really necessary for YRC to eat inputs and have partial invulnerability as well.

    As for the part about bringing people up to his level, I'm not condoning giving characters ridiculous shit because why not. All I mean is that I'd rather see weaker characters brought up, within reason, instead of strong characters being nerfed if their balance doesn't warrant it. I don't think Chipp is egregiously unbalanced, just maybe a little strong in a game where everyone else got weaker. That's all. I gave my suggestions for changes in an earlier post and I stand by them. Get rid of Gamma Beast, and maybe tune down his damage in some places by tuning proration values, and maybe make some of his buttons a bit easier to deal with for everyone else by retuning some hurtboxes/hitboxes. He's not in need of a huge tear down. I understand that you believe he is unbalanced, and make no mistake, I definitely see merits in that idea; he does so many things outstandingly well, and sometimes, as you said, it seems like his only true flaw is that if he gets hit he dies. However, with the exception of Gamma Beast, this is pretty much what Chipp has been throughout Xrd, and no one's been calling for his head up till now. If you want to argue that this is only because there were worse offenders in the older iterations, and now that all the others have been tuned down, we've finally been exposed to just how dumb Chipp is, then I'll see your point and just agree to disagree. I just don't see him as a world beater like say, SIGN Elphelt or vanilla Revelator Johnny.
    Post edited by Psaro on
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 21,066
    Teleport YRC is dumb as shit.
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  • jblairjblair remember to cancel your preorder! Joined: Posts: 1,390
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?

    is this like some kind of affirmative action argument or
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 701
    edited August 6
    jblair wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?

    is this like some kind of affirmative action argument or

    No, just shocked by how stupid your claim was that Chipp now overrides one of the best characters in the game.

    I didn't mean to suggest that Chipp should be made stronger than Millia because she has been S tier until now, but rather that it is absurd to think that Chipp now invalidates her as a character. Millia still has god like neutral and oki and her neutral game especially excels in areas where Chipp's does not.

  • jblairjblair remember to cancel your preorder! Joined: Posts: 1,390
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?

    is this like some kind of affirmative action argument or

    No, just shocked by how stupid your claim was that Chipp now overrides one of the best characters in the game.

    I didn't mean to suggest that Chipp should be made stronger than Millia because she has been S tier until now, but rather that it is absurd to think that Chipp now invalidates her as a character. Millia still has god like neutral and oki and her neutral game especially excels in areas where Chipp's does not.

    Well, I'd say that chipp's neutral is pretty damn close to being as good as millia WITH pin, and his oki is 70% as good as millia ONLY in the corner, and his pressure is definitely much better.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,812
    jblair wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?

    is this like some kind of affirmative action argument or

    No, just shocked by how stupid your claim was that Chipp now overrides one of the best characters in the game.

    I didn't mean to suggest that Chipp should be made stronger than Millia because she has been S tier until now, but rather that it is absurd to think that Chipp now invalidates her as a character. Millia still has god like neutral and oki and her neutral game especially excels in areas where Chipp's does not.

    Well, I'd say that chipp's neutral is pretty damn close to being as good as millia WITH pin, and his oki is 70% as good as millia ONLY in the corner, and his pressure is definitely much better.

    His corner oki is way better, it's just that his midscreen oki is much worse
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,389
    Also Chipp's neutral has always been better than Millia's imo. That's not to say that Millia's is somehow bad, it's just that Chipp's is absurdly strong.

    Also, speaking to Psaro's point about how Samitto "only" used k teleport yrc 5 times in 5 matches. I think that it is not great of an argument for a number of reasons. For starters, it's not something that you typically need to use numerous times because using it once is typically enough to gain control of the match. Also, the argument doesn't make sense because of how Chipp fights by nature. If the opponent gets hit at round start, Chipp can literally carry that momentum to a perfect on occasion, would it be fair to count a round like that? There are just too many factors to consider before we could really accept an argument like that. The bottom line, imo, is that Chipp would still be really really strong without Gamma Beast and with k teleport as prc only, but he would also be more balanced
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  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 24,771 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Chipp is obv better than Milia now.

    Milia got a MASSIVE nerf to her play style. That matters because while yeah you do have other options, none of them were as strong as her knockdown oki game.
  • DangerOnTheRangerDangerOnTheRanger based TvC god Joined: Posts: 294
    Speaking of nerfs, what's up with the east talking about Zato being worse with the new changes? The proximity guard change on 22S/H doesn't seem that bad, and the new puddle-generating properties seem like a plus to me. What happened?
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  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 76
    edited August 10
    Also Chipp's neutral has always been better than Millia's imo. That's not to say that Millia's is somehow bad, it's just that Chipp's is absurdly strong.

    Also, speaking to Psaro's point about how Samitto "only" used k teleport yrc 5 times in 5 matches. I think that it is not great of an argument for a number of reasons. For starters, it's not something that you typically need to use numerous times because using it once is typically enough to gain control of the match. Also, the argument doesn't make sense because of how Chipp fights by nature. If the opponent gets hit at round start, Chipp can literally carry that momentum to a perfect on occasion, would it be fair to count a round like that? There are just too many factors to consider before we could really accept an argument like that. The bottom line, imo, is that Chipp would still be really really strong without Gamma Beast and with k teleport as prc only, but he would also be more balanced

    I get your point, but, imo, you seem to be fixating too much on the number, when I also mentioned several other more substantive things about Samitto's overall meter usage. Again, he literally never used it at all against Raven or Ramlethal, and he basically never used it against Venom the first match, except one time at the very end, and it's not like Samitto was in constant control of those matches running triple perfects. How do you explain that? If Samitto could use K Teleport YRC to just win those matches outright, then why was the vast majority of his meter going towards other options? Like I said, I'm not going to disagree that it's really strong, but as I implied in that last post, saying that K Teleport YRC will do all the work is a pretty bold claim. When the evidence seems to disagree, I think it takes more than a negative argument like this to prove your case. I'm ready to agree to disagree though, as I get the feeling that we just see things differently on this issue; the general idea you're getting at in this post isn't wrong, I just think K Teleport YRC is a symptom of a larger issue, which is that YRC in general and YRC with Chipp in particular are pretty strong. It's one of many powerful YRC options in the game, and I'd be willing to let it rock if other elements of Chipp's game are addressed appropriately or if YRC in general is toned down.
    Speaking of nerfs, what's up with the east talking about Zato being worse with the new changes? The proximity guard change on 22S/H doesn't seem that bad, and the new puddle-generating properties seem like a plus to me. What happened?

    Proximity on drills is not the only nerf Zato got, and it's relatively insignificant either way, as you said. Drills were also changed to be 0 on block, as opposed to +2, which is a pretty significant nerf to his stalling game. They also nerfed unsummon recovery pretty hard, which primarily has the effect of making Nobiru unsummon less plus on block. I believe testing has shown that Nobiru unsummon is now at best +4 on regular block (0 on IB), if the unsummon is timed perfectly, which it won't always be. It's not the worst thing in the world, but now, he can't just get you to block something in neutral or during pressure, and then Nobiru unsummon to get enough frame advantage to reset pressure while also replenishing Eddie meter. It's a strategy that can still be implemented, but isn't as effective, as the opponent should have more effective escapes. So now, a lot of times, you have to forego the unsummon and just try to run a mixup with whatever meter you have left. Basically, they want Zato to commit to running a mixup instead of doing seemingly infinite blockstrings. In that light, it's not necessarily an unjustified nerf, but it is a pretty hard nerf nonetheless and the additional unsummon recovery hurts him in neutral as well of course, since it makes unsummoning a bit easier to punish. These two things led Ogawa to declare the character "dead." Though keep in mind that Ogawa tends to exaggerate things quite a bit sometimes.

    The only move that generates a puddle in addition to drills now is Eddie -H-, which is only situationally useful. Even then, part of its usefulness was that that particular puddle couldn't be destroyed, which apparently was a bug that was removed in the most recent patch that dropped a couple of days ago. Really, the best buffs Zato got in Rev2 are j.D wall bouncing in the corner on CH and a slight hurtbox buff to his 6P, which was unrecorded in the change notes.

    As for the East's perception of the character, there have been some JP players who have always looked at Zato in a negative light in Xrd, even back in his heyday in SIGN. Some outright said that the only reason Zato was considered top tier was because of Ogawa. Nowadays though, Ogawa isn't as dominant as he was, in part due to Zato's nerfs, in part due to the new characters in Xrd either being stronger or being difficult matches for Zato (Jack-O' is easily his worst matchup) or both, in part due to other players getting better at fighting the character in Xrd, and maybe in part due to Ogawa himself just having some struggles. With that in mind, and given Ogawa himself saying that Zato is basically trash in this game, it's not a surprise that people over there are going to be down on the character. Let's also not forget that one of Zato's hardest matchups, Chipp, is currently on top of the cast in this version.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,389
    Psaro wrote: »
    Also Chipp's neutral has always been better than Millia's imo. That's not to say that Millia's is somehow bad, it's just that Chipp's is absurdly strong.

    Also, speaking to Psaro's point about how Samitto "only" used k teleport yrc 5 times in 5 matches. I think that it is not great of an argument for a number of reasons. For starters, it's not something that you typically need to use numerous times because using it once is typically enough to gain control of the match. Also, the argument doesn't make sense because of how Chipp fights by nature. If the opponent gets hit at round start, Chipp can literally carry that momentum to a perfect on occasion, would it be fair to count a round like that? There are just too many factors to consider before we could really accept an argument like that. The bottom line, imo, is that Chipp would still be really really strong without Gamma Beast and with k teleport as prc only, but he would also be more balanced

    I get your point, but, imo, you seem to be fixating too much on the number, when I also mentioned several other more substantive things about Samitto's overall meter usage. Again, he literally never used it at all against Raven or Ramlethal, and he basically never used it against Venom the first match, except one time at the very end, and it's not like Samitto was in constant control of those matches running triple perfects. How do you explain that? If Samitto could use K Teleport YRC to just win those matches outright, then why was the vast majority of his meter going towards other options? Like I said, I'm not going to disagree that it's really strong, but as I implied in that last post, saying that K Teleport YRC will do all the work is a pretty bold claim. When the evidence seems to disagree, I think it takes more than a negative argument like this to prove your case. I'm ready to agree to disagree though, as I get the feeling that we just see things differently on this issue; the general idea you're getting at in this post isn't wrong, I just think K Teleport YRC is a symptom of a larger issue, which is that YRC in general and YRC with Chipp in particular are pretty strong. It's one of many powerful YRC options in the game, and I'd be willing to let it rock if other elements of Chipp's game are addressed appropriately or if YRC in general is toned down

    I definitely agree that YRC is really strong. However, I take the opposite view when it comes to balancing it. The reason I suggested making k teleport prc only/remove gamma beast is because, imo, it would make Chipp less dumb, but it would also still leave him a lot of really powerful tools. I don't think the same can necessarily be said of other characters.

    Ky for instance, SE YRC is extremely strong, and imo it single-handedly takes him from solid character to great character. It is however a crucial part of his game and changing it up would hurt him a fair bit (the same could be said of Axl and Rensen YRC or Pot and Hammerfall YRC).

    The opposite is true for Chipp imo. He has a ton of really strong tools, arguably the strongest toolset in the game, and then to top it off he has the 2 best yrc options as well. In conclusion, it's just unnecessary for him to have all that. He would still be a very strong character without it, while I don't think others could necessarily say the same.
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  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,754
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Well imo, he's always been a character with insanely strong tools (DP, 3f normal, great fast normals, etc), but in the past he's never had (or needed) anything as immensely powerful as K Teleport YRC or Gamma Beast. Those are the things making him too good. If I told you I was creating a character that was so strong up close that, given the right opportunity, he can carry that momentum to a win and I was also giving him a YRC'able projectile that best case scenario hits/trades for a full combo+kd or worst case is +5 on block and was also giving him a teleport that recovers almost instantly right next to the opponent ready to attack, you would think I was making a Mugen game.

    I'm sorry, but K teleport yrc is so garbage. It's honestly one of the dumber things I've ever seen in a fighting game. I just hope with them fixing some YRC issues going from Rev1 to Rev2 they will also start to look at some problem moves as well, and k teleport is the biggest offender


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  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 701
    I've personally always felt that YRCs should have been handled like FRCs were and that only certain things should be YRC-able.
  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,754
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    I've personally always felt that YRCs should have been handled like FRCs were and that only certain things should be YRC-able.

    Then it would defeat the whole idea of making it a new accessible alternative to FRC's
    Plus, there are already moves that can't be YRC/PRC
    ( •_•) IT'S NOT RAPE,
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■
    IT'S SURPRISE SEX! (⌐■_■)
    YEAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
    "Orgasm is a simile for the emotional epiphany a woman has when the shame of penetration is eclipsed by the inherent virtue of servicing a man." ~ Kromo.
    ( •_•)
    ( ಠ_ಠ)
    ( ಥ_ಥ)
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,282
    Hecatom wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    I've personally always felt that YRCs should have been handled like FRCs were and that only certain things should be YRC-able.

    Then it would defeat the whole idea of making it a new accessible alternative to FRC's
    Plus, there are already moves that can't be YRC/PRC

    Not really, there are some moves like uppercuts that can't be YRC'd. FRC's weren't accessible because a lot of them had 2f input windows and some only 1f (at least in AC not sure if any of them kept 1f timing in AC+R since chipp's teleport got adjusted to 2f in +R). 2f input windows in variable online lag are rough at times so YRC I think was meant to be more online friendly than anything.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    Although it could be an early reaction, it is troubling that someone who has been the best player of Zato since before a lot of us were playing fighting games competitively has declared him dead. He should know better than anyone really unless there is some new optimal style for him that comes up from someone else.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,754
    edited August 15
    Although it could be an early reaction, it is troubling that someone who has been the best player of Zato since before a lot of us were playing fighting games competitively has declared him dead. He should know better than anyone really unless there is some new optimal style for him that comes up from someone else.

    Is not the 1st time he does that, he did the same with GG Slash and GG Ac+R.
    He really gets salty when Zato isn't the best character on the game. At the slightless sing of strugle for Zato he starts bitching about it.
    ( •_•) IT'S NOT RAPE,
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■
    IT'S SURPRISE SEX! (⌐■_■)
    YEAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
    "Orgasm is a simile for the emotional epiphany a woman has when the shame of penetration is eclipsed by the inherent virtue of servicing a man." ~ Kromo.
    ( •_•)
    ( ಠ_ಠ)
    ( ಥ_ಥ)
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,812
    Although it could be an early reaction, it is troubling that someone who has been the best player of Zato since before a lot of us were playing fighting games competitively has declared him dead. He should know better than anyone really unless there is some new optimal style for him that comes up from someone else.

    Ogawa's main tactic is getting the patch notes to favor him. Pay it no mind.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Although it could be an early reaction, it is troubling that someone who has been the best player of Zato since before a lot of us were playing fighting games competitively has declared him dead. He should know better than anyone really unless there is some new optimal style for him that comes up from someone else.

    Ogawa's main tactic is getting the patch notes to favor him. Pay it no mind.

    A good, classic tactic.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 21,066
    Ogawa whining like a scrub.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • SaandroSaandro Joined: Posts: 100
    edited August 15
    Although it could be an early reaction, it is troubling that someone who has been the best player of Zato since before a lot of us were playing fighting games competitively has declared him dead. He should know better than anyone really unless there is some new optimal style for him that comes up from someone else.

    I knew it wasn't my fault that I keep losing.
    Post edited by Saandro on
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 24,771 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Although it could be an early reaction, it is troubling that someone who has been the best player of Zato since before a lot of us were playing fighting games competitively has declared him dead. He should know better than anyone really unless there is some new optimal style for him that comes up from someone else.

    Ogawa's main tactic is getting the patch notes to favor him. Pay it no mind.

    A good, classic tactic.

    Sure fucking is.

    That's why I'm bitching and moaning to Make Sin Great Again.
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,312
    edited August 15
    Sin is still amazing, and unlike Ogawa, whose opinions at least carry some weight, I sincerely doubt ArcSys is going to listen to your whiny ass =V

    I kinda feel Zato has the Mishima problem though, in that you feel a character that takes that much effort should be super powerful.
  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,754
    But that is the thing, Zato is still a strong character.
    ( •_•) IT'S NOT RAPE,
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■
    IT'S SURPRISE SEX! (⌐■_■)
    YEAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
    "Orgasm is a simile for the emotional epiphany a woman has when the shame of penetration is eclipsed by the inherent virtue of servicing a man." ~ Kromo.
    ( •_•)
    ( ಠ_ಠ)
    ( ಥ_ಥ)
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,389
    I think Sin is overrated in this version. To be sure, he's still really good, but I don't think he should be a shoo-in as a top 4 character anymore; to me Ky is just as good if not better in this iteration
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 24,771 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    That's what I've been saying.

    Sin has been getting nerfed ever since he was introduced. In the latest update, the guy lost hard knockdown from air beak driver, jump cancel from 6P (although they did give him more stun duration on it), and lost wall splat from air 5K. That's in addition to losing PRC from hunger state, smaller hitbox on beak driver, increased recovery on Elk Hunter, MASSIVE recovery on ground Beak Driver, damage reduction all around, less Tension Gauge buildup on practically all but two moves, added recovery frames, and a nerfed Super.

    Now ever after ALL of that he's still a contender, doing really well and such. But he's no longer a big threat like he used to be. Johnny, Raven, Ky, Chipp, and Sol I would say are better. Shit, I'd even add Milia and poooooooooooooooossibly Leo because Leo really isn't that bad.

    He's not as bad as others, but they just really took a bat to the poor character and it's time to stop.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,389
    Yeah he's definitely still really good. He still does big damage, has great normals (he has the only 6p that will beat Chipp j.D clean), solid pressure (despite the nerf Elk hunt is still a great pressure tool), and he still has Beak Driver (not quite as obnoxious as it once was, but still good; imo it still dictates the pace of the match against most characters).

    But other characters have definitely caught up to him. I still think there's a case to be made that he's a top 5 character, but I just don't think he should be automatically placed in the top 4 anymore, because he's definitely not as strong as he used to be (some would say not as dumb as he used to be lol)
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,812
    Yeah he's definitely still really good. He still does big damage, has great normals (he has the only 6p that will beat Chipp j.D clean), solid pressure (despite the nerf Elk hunt is still a great pressure tool), and he still has Beak Driver (not quite as obnoxious as it once was, but still good; imo it still dictates the pace of the match against most characters).

    But other characters have definitely caught up to him. I still think there's a case to be made that he's a top 5 character, but I just don't think he should be automatically placed in the top 4 anymore, because he's definitely not as strong as he used to be (some would say not as dumb as he used to be lol)

    He's basically where he should be. Really, the only character I think needs a bit of a nerftap is Chipp. But I'm horribly, massively biased there as the two characters I've mained in Xrd have godawful matchups against him
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,389
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Yeah he's definitely still really good. He still does big damage, has great normals (he has the only 6p that will beat Chipp j.D clean), solid pressure (despite the nerf Elk hunt is still a great pressure tool), and he still has Beak Driver (not quite as obnoxious as it once was, but still good; imo it still dictates the pace of the match against most characters).

    But other characters have definitely caught up to him. I still think there's a case to be made that he's a top 5 character, but I just don't think he should be automatically placed in the top 4 anymore, because he's definitely not as strong as he used to be (some would say not as dumb as he used to be lol)

    He's basically where he should be. Really, the only character I think needs a bit of a nerftap is Chipp. But I'm horribly, massively biased there as the two characters I've mained in Xrd have godawful matchups against him

    Yeah I agree. Overall, this iteration seems really well balanced, lots of really strong characters. I think the only exceptions would be Chipp inexplicably getting a buff and becoming a bit too strong (fix gamma and make K teleport prc only = balanced Chipp) and Bedman getting hit too hard (the character was stupid, but he didn't need to get bodied that hard). Otherwise I think the future looks bright
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 24,771 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Fatal Seabass put in that work!
  • FatalSeabassFatalSeabass Seabass is lethal! Joined: Posts: 1,041
    Shoutouts to Razor for all the GG help he gave me. I need to hit the drawing board but I'm more than motivated now.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 24,771 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    If you cannot beat my Sin, I can just say you should learn his frame data so as to not put a button out when I can beat it. Even from what seems like a safe distance my 5S, 2D, and Beak Driver cover A LOT of space. Lord help you if that Beak Driver is a CH, too.

    FD and Just Defends help out, too. I'm still not good at Just Defends myself, but they really help even out good buttons. For example, Elk Hunter is +0. But I can cancel that on block into another special (yay Sin) or challenge you with a 2P or rapid-fire 5P. But if you JD it, IIRC I'm in negative frames so I have to block.

    That's just one instance.

    But yeah I'd be glad to play you again whenever.
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