Guilty Gear Xrd -REVELATOR- one of life's gilty pleasures

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  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Fuck Axl.
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I love punk's posting style. Those emotes are hilarious.
  • Citrus_monkeyCitrus_monkey Joined: Posts: 2,040
    So I played rev 1 quite a bit and then dropped it due to time constraints but TBH and i'm thinking about getting rev 2. I mean, its a 25$ ugrade which is really cheap but a part of me is going ''just wait another few months for rev 3.''

    Do you guys think there's still a healthy chunk of time left for that to happen? Also, how is the playerbase on console? I had some trouble finding matches with rev at times, but idk how it is now. Also, looking at old GG games I always wanted to use baiken but because rev was my first game I never got to, so.....yea. I wanna use her.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I love Rev 2. It's the only fighter I play. I get matches on PC tho it's usually the same few dozen players.
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I love punk's posting style. Those emotes are hilarious.
  • Citrus_monkeyCitrus_monkey Joined: Posts: 2,040
    Didn't realize the upgrade was fucking TWELVE bucks. Bought it immediately.

    Yes, baiken is fun. I also enjoy the fact that most of her longer BnB's have a very easy pattern to follow,(S - P - K - D)
    Some of the other characters I tried learning had some nightmare fucking combos. I guess I stuck to raven because his were also pretty damn easy in comparison.

    Then again I was trying to learn bedman....so yea. Everything is easy in comparison.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    I think balance-wise, rev2 is in a really good spot tbh
  • PVL_93_RUPVL_93_RU When's Dragon Ball? Joined: Posts: 10,968
    I think balance-wise, rev2 is in a really good spot tbh

    Except Raven who needs nerfs. And Zato who needs buffs, maybe Baiken and Answer too. The rest are in more or less a decent spot or at the very least tournament viable.
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  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    Yeah raven is definitely a problem; he has the deadly combination of super easy and super strong lol
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    He's good, but not really standing out from the cluster at the top though; you don't see him stomping stacked events or anything.
  • javertjavert 'sup Joined: Posts: 1,279
    Who the fuck let Marvel get in CEOtaku? And best of 5 for god's sake.

    Kedako bodied Bears hard, and that beach ball KO was for the lulz. Is the matchup actually bad or was Bears lacking practice against Mays?
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    javert wrote: »
    Who the fuck let Marvel get in CEOtaku? And best of 5 for god's sake.

    Kedako bodied Bears hard, and that beach ball KO was for the lulz. Is the matchup actually bad or was Bears lacking practice against Mays?

    Probably the latter
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Raven needing nerfs?

    Surely, you jest.

    Raven had his entire way of playing nerfed in Rev 2. You can't play him the same you played him before, period. He doesn't have his level one oki anymore. You NEED to get meter to give him his old oki back. Before you go, "but he's still strong in level one!" Yeah, and so is Sin with no Calorie Meter. Sounds more like you're going to need to learn the match-up more.

    Speaking of Sin, buff this guy. Since day 0 he's eaten nerfs to the point of silliness. I don't even want anything silly either. Give him back his old backdash. He lost so much invincibility in Rev 2 that it's useless against a lot of matchups where he needs backdash to create space. Pretty much useless against Milia now.
    Raz0r wrote: »
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  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,457
    Ky beats Raven so Raven is fine. Nerf Chipp tho, Chipp beats Ky.

    Signed, Ky-player

    ps: screw Sin
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Speaking of, pretty sure Sin's backdash can't even dodge Ky's 5S anymore. Kinda bullshit is that?
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I love punk's posting style. Those emotes are hilarious.
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,457
    Not sure if you're referring to Ky's cS or fS, but cS is active for 2 frames and fS is active for 6. Sin's backdash is invincible for 12 frames. If Ky's tagging your backdash with those moves, he's delaying them quite a bit, which is pretty risky for obvious reason.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited September 25
    Chipp v Ky is always one of those overhyped matchups just because nobody likes fighting Chipp. Yes, he's annoying af to fight against no matter who you're using, but the matchup is slight Chipp advantage at best imo, more likely it's even. The May matchup is in the same boat imo, Chipp wins in neutral and has better normals, but May can make one touch do like 80% lol. That one is probably slight Chipp advantage too, but you could argue it's even and not sound crazy imo

    I don't know if I would nerf Raven, but he's def a cut above 99% of the cast (imo the only character he isn't clearly better than is Chipp). He has the best fireball in the game, you could make a strong case that his normals are the best in the game (ground and air), his neutral is incredibly strong, his keepaway game is godlike, his rushown game is godlike, when he knocks you down its a guess (his oki is consistently godlike at both midscreen and the corner), and when he's pressuring you it's a guess between frame trap/iad reset.

    His only real weakness is that he gets stunned easily. If I was going to nerf him (tbh I think he needs this nerf) I would make him have Millia health with Chipp guts. He just flat out doesn't need 5 guts, 5 guts with a 1.1 modifier makes it so he actually has decent health, but it seems like he is shaping up to be a Millia/Chipp style character (tools are generally extremely strong, but dies quickly).

    Other nerfs I'd consider would be some slight hitbox tweaks (perhaps to j.S and 2S among others) or maybe removing his teleport dash (tbh I can't figure out why he needs this)

    For some anecdotal evidence as to how strong Raven is, let's look at the performances of two players who switched from Sol to Raven, MannyBlaze and Kazunoko. Both were solid players using Sol, but I don't remember them ever being legit threats to win events. However, since switching Blaze has won a regional event (and consistently gets top 8) and Kazunoko got top 8 at Evo (something he couldn't do with Sol). That to me is one of the strongest indicators that a character is just incredibly powerful
    Post edited by drunkards_walk on
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    He really doesn't have the best air normals; he's great when he's above you in an a2a situation but cannot just jump like a Milla or Chipp who don't give a fuck about positioning. His a2g has some solid buttons but you have to hard read a 6P with air scratch unless their 6P is ass.

    And Nerf 2S? It's basically a hard read button that they're going to do a high hitbox move, basically the same role as a Sol 2S. It's not that fast, doesn't hit low, and only goes into sweep unless you catch a ch or crouch. The paintbrush is also a bit of a read to use it because it has recovery for days on whiff. It's a good move, but has some serious weaknesses which mean you can't just throw it out.

    His keep away is very matchup specific; the lack of a traditional air dash means the corner screws him extra hard.

    He's definitely not better than Chipp is right now and I'd put Johnny above him as well.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG

    I don't know if I would nerf Raven, but he's def a cut above 99% of the cast (imo the only character he isn't clearly better than is Chipp). He has the best fireball in the game, you could make a strong case that his normals are the best in the game (ground and air), his neutral is incredibly strong, his keepaway game is godlike, his rushown game is godlike, when he knocks you down its a guess (his oki is consistently godlike at both midscreen and the corner), and when he's pressuring you it's a guess between frame trap/iad reset.

    Nonsense.

    His fireball is only that good, again, based on his pain meter. Until it gets to level 2, you're going to get a ball that does two hits and starts much later than his Rev 1 version. You can backdash, reversal DP, blitz shield, etc. it. His air normals are really only solid if you are under Raven but they can get stuffed by any other person's normals if he's not directly there.

    I don't know about his keepaway game. His needle is decent, sure, but it's not exactly a Venom pool ball. He can only throw one and it's got a hefty recovery time. His ground normals are scary but there are characters who have much scarier normals than Raven.

    Pressure is his only real thing since he can only do real damage with meter. You're going to take that away from him after they already took away his level 1 oki? Might as well just delete the character.
    His only real weakness is that he gets stunned easily. If I was going to nerf him (tbh I think he needs this nerf) I would make him have Millia health with Chipp guts. He just flat out doesn't need 5 guts, 5 guts with a 1.1 modifier makes it so he actually has decent health, but it seems like he is shaping up to be a Millia/Chipp style character (tools are generally extremely strong, but dies quickly).

    Other nerfs I'd consider would be some slight hitbox tweaks (perhaps to j.S and 2S among others) or maybe removing his teleport dash (tbh I can't figure out why he needs this)

    For some anecdotal evidence as to how strong Raven is, let's look at the performances of two players who switched from Sol to Raven, MannyBlaze and Kazunoko. Both were solid players using Sol, but I don't remember them ever being legit threats to win events. However, since switching Blaze has won a regional event (and consistently gets top 8) and Kazunoko got top 8 at Evo (something he couldn't do with Sol). That to me is one of the strongest indicators that a character is just incredibly powerful

    He doesn't need nerfs. Yeah, he's better than Sol but so what? Sol himself is still a terrifying character, just that Raven plays him.

    And we can do this in reverse. Where was Machaboo at this year's EVO? Oh yeah, he got rekt because of the overnerfing Sin got. There wasn't a single Sin in top 8.

    So make Sin great again. I don't even want the Rev 1 hitbox on Beak Driver or splat back on j. K. Just give me back the old invincibility on backdash.
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I love punk's posting style. Those emotes are hilarious.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Muttonman with the sense.

    Chipp is overall deserving of a nerf than anyone else in the game. I would tone his damage or at least make it so his combos scale much earlier.


    And right now I still think Raven is top 5 but after Chipp, Johnny, Milia, and Ky.
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I love punk's posting style. Those emotes are hilarious.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited September 25
    Raz0r wrote: »

    I don't know if I would nerf Raven, but he's def a cut above 99% of the cast (imo the only character he isn't clearly better than is Chipp). He has the best fireball in the game, you could make a strong case that his normals are the best in the game (ground and air), his neutral is incredibly strong, his keepaway game is godlike, his rushown game is godlike, when he knocks you down its a guess (his oki is consistently godlike at both midscreen and the corner), and when he's pressuring you it's a guess between frame trap/iad reset.

    Nonsense.

    His fireball is only that good, again, based on his pain meter. Until it gets to level 2, you're going to get a ball that does two hits and starts much later than his Rev 1 version. You can backdash, reversal DP, blitz shield, etc. it. His air normals are really only solid if you are under Raven but they can get stuffed by any other person's normals if he's not directly there.

    I don't know about his keepaway game. His needle is decent, sure, but it's not exactly a Venom pool ball. He can only throw one and it's got a hefty recovery time. His ground normals are scary but there are characters who have much scarier normals than Raven.

    Pressure is his only real thing since he can only do real damage with meter. You're going to take that away from him after they already took away his level 1 oki? Might as well just delete the character.
    His only real weakness is that he gets stunned easily. If I was going to nerf him (tbh I think he needs this nerf) I would make him have Millia health with Chipp guts. He just flat out doesn't need 5 guts, 5 guts with a 1.1 modifier makes it so he actually has decent health, but it seems like he is shaping up to be a Millia/Chipp style character (tools are generally extremely strong, but dies quickly).

    Other nerfs I'd consider would be some slight hitbox tweaks (perhaps to j.S and 2S among others) or maybe removing his teleport dash (tbh I can't figure out why he needs this)

    For some anecdotal evidence as to how strong Raven is, let's look at the performances of two players who switched from Sol to Raven, MannyBlaze and Kazunoko. Both were solid players using Sol, but I don't remember them ever being legit threats to win events. However, since switching Blaze has won a regional event (and consistently gets top 8) and Kazunoko got top 8 at Evo (something he couldn't do with Sol). That to me is one of the strongest indicators that a character is just incredibly powerful

    He doesn't need nerfs. Yeah, he's better than Sol but so what? Sol himself is still a terrifying character, just that Raven plays him.

    And we can do this in reverse. Where was Machaboo at this year's EVO? Oh yeah, he got rekt because of the overnerfing Sin got. There wasn't a single Sin in top 8.

    So make Sin great again. I don't even want the Rev 1 hitbox on Beak Driver or splat back on j. K. Just give me back the old invincibility on backdash.

    When I said "best fireball in the game" I was referring to needle, not his oki ball lol. I also don't see how lowering his health would take away his pressure.

    I want to hear which character you think has better grounded/air normals than Raven. Chipp is the only competition, but imo Raven's normals are better. Raven j.S will beat Chipp j.D clean and it's a godlike jump-in, Raven j.P is a godlike air to air, Raven 2S has no hurtbox and can convert to knockdown, 2H needs no introduction, and 6P is still amazing after his invincible ground dash. His normals are strong af.

    Again, Raven needs to have Millia/Chipp health, let him keep his incredibly strong tools, but make him take more damage. To me that is more than fair.

    I agree that Chipp could use some adjustment too, but at least Chipp requires a bit of executional prowess. Atm Raven is more egregious because he's just so fucking strong and yet so fucking easy
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    There's nothing wrong with ease of use and being good. If you want more players to enter a game, that's EXACTLY what you need in order to help them compete.

    Even with that, you need to execute pretty well with Raven so you're not eating shit from heavy hitters and getting dizzied. Just like any character, he needs to be mastered to be of any real use in real competition. So anyone with little knowledge of the game can come in, play him, do well, but not exactly start beating killers. Same with Sin, really.

    I do not argue that Raven's Air vs Air game is strong. It is hella strong. However, if he is attacking grounded opponents it's not as great. Unless the person is directly below you, you're going to rely on j. S, which depending on distance/momentum doesn't really lead to anything, or a j. D, which does knock down but also pops you up. So that option is limited.

    They put him exactly where he belongs, imo. I don't like that he lost his level 1 oki but the character plays more faithful to the original idea.
    Raz0r wrote: »
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  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited September 25
    Muttonman wrote: »
    He really doesn't have the best air normals; he's great when he's above you in an a2a situation but cannot just jump like a Milla or Chipp who don't give a fuck about positioning. His a2g has some solid buttons but you have to hard read a 6P with air scratch unless their 6P is ass.

    And Nerf 2S? It's basically a hard read button that they're going to do a high hitbox move, basically the same role as a Sol 2S. It's not that fast, doesn't hit low, and only goes into sweep unless you catch a ch or crouch. The paintbrush is also a bit of a read to use it because it has recovery for days on whiff. It's a good move, but has some serious weaknesses which mean you can't just throw it out.

    His keep away is very matchup specific; the lack of a traditional air dash means the corner screws him extra hard.

    He's definitely not better than Chipp is right now and I'd put Johnny above him as well.

    I think he's just as good as Chipp, and that both Chipp and Raven are a cut above the rest. I just don't see how Johnny can be considered as good as those two anymore, he's top 5 for sure, but he's received nothing but nerfs since the day he was released.

    His air normals are great though, air to air j.P is amazing (6f with a great hitbox), j.S honestly reminds me of Chipp j.D (they both have long recovery but both will almost definitey blow the opponent up if they try to challenge).

    2S is good in pressure because of amazing hitbox, but it's real strength lies in its round start ability. It's extremely risky to press a button against Raven at round start because CH 2S into 2H scratch means you maybe just lost the round. 2H is a less vulnerable version of Faust 2H and 6P is still an amazing counter poke tool. Again, the only character with normals in the same class is Chipp imo, so it's not too unfair to make Ravens health more like Chipp's (you'll notice the only nerf I supported was the health nerf, I said I'd consider the hitbox stuff, but the health stuff is the one imo). There just isn't any reason why a character with tools as good as Chipp's/Millia's should have Raven health. If you made his health lower he'd be fine
    Post edited by drunkards_walk on
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited September 25
    Raz0r wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with ease of use and being good. If you want more players to enter a game, that's EXACTLY what you need in order to help them compete.

    Even with that, you need to execute pretty well with Raven so you're not eating shit from heavy hitters and getting dizzied. Just like any character, he needs to be mastered to be of any real use in real competition. So anyone with little knowledge of the game can come in, play him, do well, but not exactly start beating killers. Same with Sin, really.

    I do not argue that Raven's Air vs Air game is strong. It is hella strong. However, if he is attacking grounded opponents it's not as great. Unless the person is directly below you, you're going to rely on j. S, which depending on distance/momentum doesn't really lead to anything, or a j. D, which does knock down but also pops you up. So that option is limited.

    They put him exactly where he belongs, imo. I don't like that he lost his level 1 oki but the character plays more faithful to the original idea.

    Yeah but the thing is his air to ground doesn't need to be great because of the way he plays. His air to air game and ground game are immense, plus his insanely strong fireballs and really good forward dash give him ridiculous neutral control and make it so he is only really attacking air to ground when he has knocked you down and put a ball on you or when he's pressuring you and you're guessing between frame trap/iad. Even so, j.S is a strong air to ground (in addition to being god tier as an air to air), it won't blow up all 6ps, but it can be a problem for some of them. I'll say it again, all he needs is pixies health and he's fine. It seems like he's developing into a character who generally has really strong tools all around, but atm he doesn't have the really low health that balances such a character
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,457
    Raven's lack of a traditional airdash is actually a huge weakness. It's the main reason why Ky wins that matchup fairly convincingly: he's the single easiest character for Ky to AA. It's so easy to just walk Raven into the corner and 6P him whenever he attempts to airdash forward. Once Raven is in the corner he really struggles with getting out since he can't superjump -> airdash and escape, and his defensive options are okay, but nothing to brag about. Ky outdamages him on average, too.
    Of course this is from the perspective of someone who only plays one character, but I'd imagine the weaknesses mentioned above come into play in other matches, too.

    Ky vs Chipp used to be slightly favored for Chipp, but I think it's a clear 6-4 in Rev2. The neutral is largely unchanged, and Chipp is still made of paper, but this is one of the matches where the Ky's new 6H (a move I love, for the record) is worse than the old one. It's not as bad as people tend to think, but it forces Ky to abandon his shoto gameplan and start playing mr. Guessy McScramblepants instead, and not having to do that is the exact reason why most Ky-players play Ky. x_x
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited September 25
    How exactly is it easy to walk Raven to the corner? He has some of the best neutral in the game. His corner defensive options aren't the best, but with 50 meter he still has access to all the usual stuff plus a fairly decent reversal super. Plus, at least in my experience, if you have him cornered and are playing at a range where you are looking to punish a jump-out attempt, then his invincible forward dash becomes an incredibly strong option for him to whiff punish your button. Overall his defensive options aren't the greatest (they are far from the worst though), but his incredibly powerful neutral and offense more than make up for it
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    If you're Raven in the corner, you aren't forward dashing. You can't, really, because that teleport doesn't come out for several frames, making you vulnerable to any punish the opponent wants. Airdashing out of the corner is out simply because you cannot do it. Raven does his best neutral about a quarter-screen away from opponent so yeah, you can force him back if he wants that optimal zone but it isn't guaranteed. Even if you don't get that many characters (including Ky) can carry him to the corner. His reversal super is great, sure, but it's not a guaranteed hit and if it's blocked you're eating a punish not to mention that you give up your other defensive options in the process.

    For the record, I don't know of anyone who plays far away from Raven once they have the character in the corner. It's stupid to do so.
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  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,457
    How exactly is it easy to walk Raven to the corner? He has some of the best neutral in the game. His corner defensive options aren't the best, but with 50 meter he still has access to all the usual stuff plus a fairly decent reversal super. Plus, at least in my experience, if you have him cornered and are playing at a range where you are looking to punish a jump-out attempt, then his invincible forward dash becomes an incredibly strong option for him to whiff punish your button. Overall his defensive options aren't the greatest (they are far from the worst though), but his incredibly powerful neutral and offense more than make up for it

    Just let me clarify that I was talking mainly about the matchup against Ky and experience from that, not on a general basis. I do think other characters can exploit his weaknesses effectively as well, however.
    And yes, Ky does walk Raven into the corner relatively reliably. Raven can challenge Ky on the ground with decent success because his buttons are quite good, but the risk-reward during neutral isn't in his favor at all.

    Raven's obviously a super-strong character, but pretending that the character's only real weakness is low stun, when he has at least one glaring drawback (mobility, especially when cornered) is nonsense.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    His low stun stands out to me as more glaring a weakness than the air dash. To me that is what keeps him honest
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Paintbrush loses to Chipp j.d and it loses hard. Like, this is a matchup I regularly play and that's one of the big issues, especially because Chipp can get above you easily. You're showing some lack of character knowledge there. Also, j.k is a better air to ground button, way better downward hitbox.

    And yeah, 2S is solid at round start, but there's not much you can do if they jump back and there's a ton of buttons that still beat it clean; it beats a certain type of poke but you can whiff punish it or stuff it.

    And forward dash while cornered? Really? It's got ~10f startup before the teleport. You might as well just press any other button. It's a niche option that's mainly useful in the same way other dashes are.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Paintbrush loses to Chipp j.d and it loses hard. Like, this is a matchup I regularly play and that's one of the big issues, especially because Chipp can get above you easily. You're showing some lack of character knowledge there. Also, j.k is a better air to ground button, way better downward hitbox.

    And yeah, 2S is solid at round start, but there's not much you can do if they jump back and there's a ton of buttons that still beat it clean; it beats a certain type of poke but you can whiff punish it or stuff it.

    And forward dash while cornered? Really? It's got ~10f startup before the teleport. You might as well just press any other button. It's a niche option that's mainly useful in the same way other dashes are.

    No it doesn't. Go into training mode and have them both jump and do it at the same time, they will clash. However, in an air vs air situation j.S is usually going to win because of the range + startup.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Paintbrush loses to Chipp j.d and it loses hard. Like, this is a matchup I regularly play and that's one of the big issues, especially because Chipp can get above you easily. You're showing some lack of character knowledge there. Also, j.k is a better air to ground button, way better downward hitbox.

    And yeah, 2S is solid at round start, but there's not much you can do if they jump back and there's a ton of buttons that still beat it clean; it beats a certain type of poke but you can whiff punish it or stuff it.

    And forward dash while cornered? Really? It's got ~10f startup before the teleport. You might as well just press any other button. It's a niche option that's mainly useful in the same way other dashes are.

    No it doesn't. Go into training mode and have them both jump and do it at the same time, they will clash. However, in an air vs air situation j.S is usually going to win because of the range + startup.

    J.D is a frame faster, has a way better payoff, and is much easier to get into position to use. I regularly play against a Chipp, you absolutely have to be making a hard call out to try and paint him
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited September 26
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Paintbrush loses to Chipp j.d and it loses hard. Like, this is a matchup I regularly play and that's one of the big issues, especially because Chipp can get above you easily. You're showing some lack of character knowledge there. Also, j.k is a better air to ground button, way better downward hitbox.

    And yeah, 2S is solid at round start, but there's not much you can do if they jump back and there's a ton of buttons that still beat it clean; it beats a certain type of poke but you can whiff punish it or stuff it.

    And forward dash while cornered? Really? It's got ~10f startup before the teleport. You might as well just press any other button. It's a niche option that's mainly useful in the same way other dashes are.

    No it doesn't. Go into training mode and have them both jump and do it at the same time, they will clash. However, in an air vs air situation j.S is usually going to win because of the range + startup.

    J.D is a frame faster, has a way better payoff, and is much easier to get into position to use. I regularly play against a Chipp, you absolutely have to be making a hard call out to try and paint him

    Yeah I won't argue with you there, CH j.D gives massive reward and he can sort of just teleport and be in a a position to j.D, but the point is not many air normals can even come close to contesting j.D, so the fact that j.S can win at times is a testament to how good it is; it's easily one of the best air normals in the game, in the same class as Chipp j.D, Millia j.P, and Bedman j.P for sure
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Paintbrush loses to Chipp j.d and it loses hard. Like, this is a matchup I regularly play and that's one of the big issues, especially because Chipp can get above you easily. You're showing some lack of character knowledge there. Also, j.k is a better air to ground button, way better downward hitbox.

    And yeah, 2S is solid at round start, but there's not much you can do if they jump back and there's a ton of buttons that still beat it clean; it beats a certain type of poke but you can whiff punish it or stuff it.

    And forward dash while cornered? Really? It's got ~10f startup before the teleport. You might as well just press any other button. It's a niche option that's mainly useful in the same way other dashes are.

    No it doesn't. Go into training mode and have them both jump and do it at the same time, they will clash. However, in an air vs air situation j.S is usually going to win because of the range + startup.

    J.D is a frame faster, has a way better payoff, and is much easier to get into position to use. I regularly play against a Chipp, you absolutely have to be making a hard call out to try and paint him

    Yeah I won't argue with you there, CH j.D is gives massive reward and he can sort of just teleport and be in a a position to j.D, but the point is not many air normals can even come close to contesting j.D, so the fact that j.S can win at times is a testament to how good it is
    1505312920-20170913%20(1).png

    It can win in the same situation that any other character's j.s or j.h can win, and Raven has a much harder time getting into that situation due to him lacking a traditional airdash.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited September 26
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Paintbrush loses to Chipp j.d and it loses hard. Like, this is a matchup I regularly play and that's one of the big issues, especially because Chipp can get above you easily. You're showing some lack of character knowledge there. Also, j.k is a better air to ground button, way better downward hitbox.

    And yeah, 2S is solid at round start, but there's not much you can do if they jump back and there's a ton of buttons that still beat it clean; it beats a certain type of poke but you can whiff punish it or stuff it.

    And forward dash while cornered? Really? It's got ~10f startup before the teleport. You might as well just press any other button. It's a niche option that's mainly useful in the same way other dashes are.

    No it doesn't. Go into training mode and have them both jump and do it at the same time, they will clash. However, in an air vs air situation j.S is usually going to win because of the range + startup.

    J.D is a frame faster, has a way better payoff, and is much easier to get into position to use. I regularly play against a Chipp, you absolutely have to be making a hard call out to try and paint him

    Yeah I won't argue with you there, CH j.D is gives massive reward and he can sort of just teleport and be in a a position to j.D, but the point is not many air normals can even come close to contesting j.D, so the fact that j.S can win at times is a testament to how good it is
    1505312920-20170913%20(1).png

    It can win in the same situation that any other character's j.s or j.h can win, and Raven has a much harder time getting into that situation due to him lacking a traditional airdash.

    No it wouldn't, most characters are eating a CH j.D in situations where Ravens j.S can win
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 22,057
    Naw fuck Zato, he doesn't need a buff.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,457
    What does Zato have to do with anything here D:
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Paintbrush loses to Chipp j.d and it loses hard. Like, this is a matchup I regularly play and that's one of the big issues, especially because Chipp can get above you easily. You're showing some lack of character knowledge there. Also, j.k is a better air to ground button, way better downward hitbox.

    And yeah, 2S is solid at round start, but there's not much you can do if they jump back and there's a ton of buttons that still beat it clean; it beats a certain type of poke but you can whiff punish it or stuff it.

    And forward dash while cornered? Really? It's got ~10f startup before the teleport. You might as well just press any other button. It's a niche option that's mainly useful in the same way other dashes are.

    No it doesn't. Go into training mode and have them both jump and do it at the same time, they will clash. However, in an air vs air situation j.S is usually going to win because of the range + startup.

    J.D is a frame faster, has a way better payoff, and is much easier to get into position to use. I regularly play against a Chipp, you absolutely have to be making a hard call out to try and paint him

    Yeah I won't argue with you there, CH j.D is gives massive reward and he can sort of just teleport and be in a a position to j.D, but the point is not many air normals can even come close to contesting j.D, so the fact that j.S can win at times is a testament to how good it is
    1505312920-20170913%20(1).png

    It can win in the same situation that any other character's j.s or j.h can win, and Raven has a much harder time getting into that situation due to him lacking a traditional airdash.

    No it wouldn't, most characters are eating a CH j.D in situations where Ravens j.S can win

    In order to beat j.d you either need to be above Chipp or have a great upwards hitbox on the situations it is used. The paintbrush doesn't have the latter (it's down forward) and Raven has trouble getting the former. J.D also is faster than the paintbrush and will win in horizontal fights. The only way it wins is where you'd beat any move that came out because you were much quicker on the trigger, not unlike any other character. There's plenty of moves that do that as well on the whole cast.

    Now, the real way you deal with a j.d read is with a tk scratch for big CH damage, but that requires good reflexes, reads, and matchup knowledge
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,119 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'm pretty sure he has no idea what he's talking about at this point.

    I play Raven and I wouldn't in my wildest dreams challenge Chipp in the air with a j. S.
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I love punk's posting style. Those emotes are hilarious.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    I've gone into training mode and tested it myself. The moral of the story is that Raven's Air normals are extremely strong; it's very hard to contest him in the air and even harder to do so on the ground. When I play Raven I put every resource I have into trying to stun him, otherwise he's very hard to kill. He's easily one of the two best characters in the game and there is a strong case to be made that he's the best
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Just spent the downtime between our weekly tournament matches testing this with the local Chipp. Literally the only time it worked is if Chipp did a full screen run and jump and Raven did jump paintbrush on reaction with a Chipp hitting j.d late. J.P also worked there, although the timing was a bit tighter because it was all about stuffing the startup. If you did the j.s even a little late or weren't actively looking for the jump from Chipp it traded or lost. It also got beat if Chipp did an early air move.
    I've gone into training mode and tested it myself. The moral of the story is that Raven's Air normals are extremely strong; it's very hard to contest him in the air and even harder to do so on the ground. When I play Raven I put every resource I have into trying to stun him, otherwise he's very hard to kill. He's easily one of the two best characters in the game and there is a strong case to be made that he's the best

    No, the moral of the story is that you're talking out your ass about a character you don't know to people who primarily play him. It's not a good look.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited September 27
    I also tested it against his teleports (teleport into j.D and it was beating it clean most times), it also worked against neutral jump j.D, and if raven air dashed and Chipp tried to interrupt with j.D. but you can keep downplaying him if it makes you happy. Also, can say they "primarily plat Raven" after practicing with him for an hour (not that I blame you, I've often asked myself why I'm not playing him; tbh the jokes on the people not currently playing him)
    Post edited by drunkards_walk on
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