Super Smash Bros. General - Patience and Spacing....or Whine and Moan

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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    but at least they are punishable when they recovery, sheik is basically unpunishable.
    Add aerial recovery to bouncing fish and remove that stupid wind box. Her needles could use a range nerf but meh. Her recovery being unpunishable is beyond stupid for someone whose outstanding on the stage. She should have a flaw but the character doesn't have any.

    ZSS needs her Up B KO power nerfed. It KOs way too early at some points. other than that, she's pretty okay. (maybe nerf initial knock back from Up b or something)

    rosalina is okay. she plays a lot like marth in melee in that she is best with platforms. Maybe lower the KO potential of uair but that's about it. She's really good and that's okay because she's not stupid.

    most characters are fine. a few of the other characters should be buffed. give samus her old nair back. please ninty
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    Decided to get on For Glory with the new secondary for like, 15 minutes out of boredom last night, just to "see".



    I think I get it now. The more of this I get the more I want to play her.
    ZSS needs her Up B KO power nerfed. It KOs way too early at some points

    I don't agree with this.

    To even land the thing and make it a kill move at low percents, you have to get the Uair string, which is pretty specific. It was more of a risk when Halberd and Delfino were widespread but nowadays they usually end up banned... AT best you might get a super-early KO on T&C.

    And even then, unless done spot-on or at the right spacing, its usually DI-able, either to fall out of it or keep from dying from the last hit.

    And even then, it's her reward for landing the string, getting a grab without going into her 500k recovery frames, or getting smash setups.

    For missing it at any decent percent, she basically dies.

    It seems pretty balanced to me. I don't think she really needs a nerf anymore than Rosa would.

    At this point, I'd say just continue to make buffs and small adjustments to the rest of the cast, maybe tone Sheik down here and there. Pretty much the pace they've been on so far.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    it should still be a good KO move. the problem i have with it is when it KOs are 60-70% for no reason. it's initial knockback is incredibly strong causing some weird shit to happen.
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,793
    ZSS is the least "scary" top tier to me.

    Yeah, she's got kill setups, but she has to work so hard for them, I'm surprised anyone does well with her at all... I guess people haven't figured out how to DI the up b or avoid the downsmash/Flip Jump kill setup.

    Rosalina gives me more trouble... I see ZSS and smirk to myself, thinking, "You won't kill me until 200%... You gon get this WORK."
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,297
    po pimpus wrote: »
    ZSS is the least "scary" top tier to me.

    Yeah, she's got kill setups, but she has to work so hard for them, I'm surprised anyone does well with her at all... I guess people haven't figured out how to DI the up b or avoid the downsmash/Flip Jump kill setup.

    Rosalina gives me more trouble... I see ZSS and smirk to myself, thinking, "You won't kill me until 200%... You gon get this WORK."

    You must not fight a lot of competent ZSS players then
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    edited December 2015
    it should still be a good KO move. the problem i have with it is when it KOs are 60-70% for no reason. it's initial knockback is incredibly strong causing some weird shit to happen.

    Eh, yeah but that's kinda' the point. And she won't even get those kinds of KOs unless it's from like, the top of the screen. It's not like you can just do it out of nowhere and it kills all the time. Nairo and a lot of the top ZSS' make it look easy but it really isn't.

    Po is right on this one, she requires knowledge of a lot of setups to get that.
    You must not fight a lot of competent ZSS players then

    Well there's very few of those anyhow. Most do what I did and just flowchart her. =p

    I don't think that validates nerving her Up+B though, that's my point. It's like, "good ZSS players make this move work so well... it needs to be nerfed."
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  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 HA-LU-KEN Joined: Posts: 4,159
    edited December 2015
    @roknin
    I can't even understand that. What kind of an insult is "Spamless"? I mean, you weren't being even half as irritating as some other Rosa players I've seen.
    (that's not a dig at your play, just that you weren't constantly abusing Usmash/Dash attack/Uair like some)

    Also, I love that you played Frog's Theme when you decided to go Greninja. Major props in both regards.
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    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,793
    I've fought some good ones...
    Even the ones that beat me, it feels like if I played more solid they wouldn't win.

    Lemons don't give a fuck about a paralyzer shot, and she's not as fast as *redacted*, so I can actually react to her approaches.

    The biggest problem I have is lining her up for a killshot, but they usually get desperate for a grab, or get forced to Flip Jump into an ass whooping eventually.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,809
    edited December 2015
    po pimpus wrote: »
    and she's not as fast as *redacted*

    Zero Suit Samus is faster than Sheik. Faster run speed, better jump AND moves faster in the air.
    PSN/Steam/NNID/CFN: LordWilliam1234
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    i'm more scared of ZSS than sheik. Same with rosalina.
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    edited December 2015
    UnSaxon51 wrote: »
    @roknin
    I can't even understand that. What kind of an insult is "Spamless"? I mean, you weren't being even half as irritating as some other Rosa players I've seen.
    (that's not a dig at your play, just that you weren't constantly abusing Usmash/Dash attack/Uair like some)

    Also, I love that you played Frog's Theme when you decided to go Greninja. Major props in both regards.

    Dood, believe me, I have the same question lol! I actually play her too aggressively sometimes and don't use Luma enough (Mood pointed this out when we played, thus I've been working Luma in more lately).

    Even stranger is in the full match, D3 KO'd me first at 65%. I literally had to play hit and run to avoid losing.

    Rosalina is one of those characters that can do no right now, all because of a few sets all the way back at APEX 2015 (which to me were entertaining but you know, I;m weird, I like footsies and zoning and stuff).
    ~ aka "ninRok" ~
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  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 HA-LU-KEN Joined: Posts: 4,159
    edited December 2015
    po pimpus wrote: »
    and she's not as fast as *redacted*

    Zero Suit Samus is faster than Sheik.

    I thought they had identical run speed?

    Edit:
    Nope. ZSS is in fact slightly faster.
    http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dash#Super_Smash_Bros._4_rankings
    The do have the same walk speed though.
    http://www.ssbwiki.com/Walking#Super_Smash_Bros._4_walking_speeds
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    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,809
    UnSaxon51 wrote: »
    I thought they had identical run speed?

    Nope. ZSS is faster in regards to movement, both in the air and on the ground. The only thing that's identical is their walkspeed.
    PSN/Steam/NNID/CFN: LordWilliam1234
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,297
    po pimpus wrote: »
    and she's not as fast as *redacted*

    Zero Suit Samus is faster than Sheik. Faster run speed, better jump AND moves faster in the air.

    If you've got the frame data, you can do comparisons for moves as well
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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,307
    ZSS is perfectly fine. No nerfs necessary.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,793
    ZSS doesn't have retarded ass, lagless aerials and an unfuckwithable projectile, nor does she have a ridiculous recovery or fast ass grab.

    So her speed is not an issue.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    PA wants ZSS buffs so he can win =)
  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 HA-LU-KEN Joined: Posts: 4,159
    While checking various movement speeds, also noticed something here:
    http://www.ssbwiki.com/Air_speed#SSB4_air_speed_ranking

    Mewtwo has the third fastest air speed now. That isn't so surprising.

    Roy has the fourth fastest. ROY. Just... what?
    NNID/XboxLive: UnSaxon51

    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,809
    edited December 2015
    po pimpus wrote: »
    ZSS doesn't have retarded ass, lagless aerials and an unfuckwithable projectile, nor does she have a ridiculous recovery or fast ass grab.

    So her speed is not an issue.

    You crossed the line Po. This is complaining about Sheik, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    I have also screencapped the evidence, so you can't get away with it:
    J86RQyr.png

    You will be keeping your av for an extra week; until 12/12, to be precise. I recommend a penalty in the league if he does not comply this time.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    po pimpus wrote: »
    ZSS doesn't have retarded ass, lagless aerials and an unfuckwithable projectile, nor does she have a ridiculous recovery or fast ass grab.

    So her speed is not an issue.

    her aerials are pretty lagless. no they aren't as low as sheik's but it's not far behind. her projectile is scary as fuck as it allows almost any follow up. her grab maybe slow, but that range is nothing to scoff at. you can't roll away from it like sheik. her recovery is just about as ridiculous as sheik's. she has stupid KO power on top of her crazy speed and set ups. at least sheik has a hard time KOing and mostly has to rely on reads to get those KOs

  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,199
    At most tweak the top tiers a little bit but nerfs usually mean less fun. Just make the other characters more fun.
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,307
    She doesn't need buffs either. She's perfectly fine.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,199
    She doesn't need buffs either. She's perfectly fine.

    Exactly.
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    ZSS is the most polarizing character in the game...
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,297
    I recommend a penalty in the league if he does not comply this time.

    large.gif

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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,307
    ZSS is the most polarizing character in the game...

    Shut up, nigga :rofl:. You love that word.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,809
    No

    Yeah yeah, I know, but I can only threaten so much with this leash I have.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    ZSS is the most polarizing character in the game...

    Shut up, nigga :rofl:. You love that word.

    but it's true. she's more reason than sheik that a lot of the characters aren't viable. she's a zoning character's worst match-up (most of the time).
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,307
    ZSS is the most polarizing character in the game...

    Shut up, nigga :rofl:. You love that word.

    but it's true. she's more reason than sheik that a lot of the characters aren't viable. she's a zoning character's worst match-up (most of the time).

    Lol.... Stop.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    this guy doesn't even know the bullshit of his own character
  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,199
    Sonic needs back throw. Give me the 1.0 backthrow please.
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,307
    this guy doesn't even know the bullshit of his own character

    No, YOU don't. You constantly exaggerate and overestimate a character's abilities. Every other day, there's a new "polarizing" character that needs to be nerfed.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,809
    On another note, this isn't "new" or anything, but it's just more reason to make sure you don't miss a tech against Yoshi:



    Found out about f-air jab-locking on complete accident last time I fought @owattjacob.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    i've said the same 3 characters for a few months. ZSS, rosalina, and sheik. the best characters. most polarizing, etc. same characters for 3 months so no, it's not a new character a day.

    her reward compared to other characters is absurd. the fact she's crazy mobile, a crazy combo game, and crazy KO power (maybe the best KO power in the game) is absurd when you look at some characters like DHD, zelda, and even palutena.

    she actually gets more reward from a stray hit than sheik. she basically destroys any zoning character. Her up b KOs crazy low and links from up air (which is a crazy good move)
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,809
    Waaaaah

    PSN/Steam/NNID/CFN: LordWilliam1234
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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,307
    Lmao... This guy.. What happened to Ryu and how polarizing you said he was? ZSS has the best KO power? You're comparing her to Zelda and Palutena to prove your point?

    271.gif

    Here's what I need you to do: Play ZSS for a week. After that, let me know what you think.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,667
    It's not complaining. You guys take everything seeningly negative and make it seem like a complaint.

    Zss has a crazy punish game. The fact that any stray hit could lead to death is absurdly good. No other character has it as well as zss does.
  • DavidstarDavidstar KILLA KUEEN! Joined: Posts: 5,061
    edited December 2015
    I tend to agree a lot with mood. Except ryus punish game is also really good. I agree with moods opinions on ryu, yoshi, Marth, lucas, zss, and shiek. I don't really see how his points constitute complaining. You guys just out on a witch hunt now.
    Post edited by Davidstar on
    Did you see that Zack? Clear as a crisp spring morning... FK....in the signature. I knew i could count on it. It never fails
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,307
    ZSS needs no buffs and no nerfs. Period.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,297
    Game Awards are over, so rumor officially debunked
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