Super Smash Bros. General - Patience and Spacing....or Whine and Moan

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  • KaboXxKaboXx FIGHTING CAT Joined: Posts: 3,954
    If capcom was behind the balance of smash, sheik and zss would be trash by now lol
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  • dre37kdre37k Don't get Cooked Joined: Posts: 1,362
    Im surprised u see ZSS as more dangerous than sheik. @Mood4food77 Sheik DESTROYS bowser. Like 0-100 matchup in sheiks favor.

    I do see what mood is saying. ZSS really has crazy setups, KO Power and spikes. I wouldnt get mad at a slight nerf to the knockback in her down B when you dont spike. But she is difficult to use. No nerfs needed.

    Even still, phantom you havent tapped into her full potential, not even 1/4 of her potential. Shes really good. Mood might be odeein, but u might be underestimating her
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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,210
    I know everything my character can do. Whether or not I'm actually able to play her at that level is irrelevant. I've been playing with her and researching her since Day 1 Smash 3DS. You and Mood think she's better than she is because your lack of experience with the character (both with and against) makes you focus on her strengths and not her weaknesses. She's one of the best characters in the game. Top 5 easy, arguably top 2/3. However, she's the most balanced of the top tier characters. She's in a perfect spot where the risk/reward for her best moves are almost 50/50. She's not in need of any nerfs or buffs, and it's fair for her to be where she is.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,583
    she is definitely not the most balanced of the top tiers. i'm still trying to find a weakness for the character. her approach is semi lacking
  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,192
    she is definitely not the most balanced of the top tiers. i'm still trying to find a weakness for the character. her approach is semi lacking

    Her weakness is SUPER MARIO!

    Her issue? NOT BEING SUPER.
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,210
    she is definitely not the most balanced of the top tiers. i'm still trying to find a weakness for the character. her approach is semi lacking

    Like I said, play her yourself. That's by far the easiest way to figure out a character's weaknesses.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • KaboXxKaboXx FIGHTING CAT Joined: Posts: 3,954
    I told mood in the Irc, shes a super technical character. In no way easy to play, you have to be precise with a lot her moves. It might be me just sucking, but I have to time her nairs very carefully or ill miss and get punish for it. Like Roknin mentioned her Uair strings arent as easy to pull as they look. You have to learn to integrate pivot grabs into your game to mix up your opponent. One whiffed grab and you can face certain death. You cant rush in like Sheik does, with her. She has a very great punish game, but it goes back to her technical side and where you have to bait out the opponent.

    She has great kill set ups, and ways to kill, there just a little hard to pull off. Uair kills at around 90% in low stage ceailings, her Bair is a great punish tool, and her stomp is amazing but it has to be set up.Again she might seem bonkers, but this bitch takes skill to play and wont be netting you easy wins, unless your opponent is an idiot!
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  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter Justice Has Prevailed! Joined: Posts: 3,208
    The plot thickens.
    eea.jpg
    Prove your justice to society.
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,210
    Zss is easier to use than sheik

    Her dsmash sets up her kill moves, it's not that hard

    Lolololol noooo she's not. Play the character and stop talking out your booty.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,583
    I was playing her last night. She's definitely easier to use than sheik

    Although sheik has never been a character i liked so that could have been why as well
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,096
    The plot thickens.

    We mocked him for years, but he has proven his power and we must abide by his word

    Fear the power of 'My dad works at Nintendo' kid!
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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,210
    I was playing her last night. She's definitely easier to use than sheik

    Although sheik has never been a character i liked so that could have been why as well

    You can't play a character for a night and think you know everything about them...let alone more than people who have been playing them since day 1. The level of arrogance that takes is ridiculous.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,583
    I have never said i know everything about this character.

    The character isn't easy to use but i feel is easier to use than sheik, that's what i said.

    Her KO power is among the best in the game and has probably the best ways of setting up her KO moves between her throws (which are crazy good), Up B OOS (which i will admit i over estimated it), and her dsmash. She's probably the most mobile character in the game and has some great spacing moves in neutral b, forward b, and nair. Her reliable approach seems to be a bit lacking but she makes up for it with her mobility. Her punish game is absurdly good.

    This is my day 1 analysis. I'll keep using her to learn more. I think you're severely underrating her as she has a lot of jank in her favor 90% of the cast wishes they had.
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,469
    Mood's an idiot. Just ignore him.
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    I dunno. I think it depends on your preference of play style. For me for example, ZSS basics were an easier learn than Sheik basics.

    That said, that doesn't make ZSS any less technical or somehow "easier". And saying "it's not that hard" is ridiculous after one night of playing her.
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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,210
    I said she was easily top 5, arguably top 2/3. How's that underrating? The only thing I'm not outright claiming is that she's better than Sheik.

    So far, you've only pointed out strengths, and some of which aren't as strong as they appear to be. Your perspective is biased at this point. Start looking for weaknesses.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,096
    Here's some weakness

    Her grab is crummy, so her OOS isn't as good as it could be and her run isn't as strong either.

    Though constant, her kill setups have holes people can wiggle out of.

    Kirby
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,583
    Her grab isnt that bad. The buffs to tethers this game makes her grab decent. It's not brawl. While still bad compared to regular grabs it's probably the best tether grab or one of the best (link's i think is better)
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    The plot thickens.

    We mocked him for years, but he has proven his power and we must abide by his word

    Fear the power of 'My dad works at Nintendo' kid!

    Lol yeah, that seems easily convenient.

    That said, it's plausible.

    To be honest I feel like PM's biggest problem from the onset is that they're young, and until this point they haven't really understood how these things work. Like a lot of the community feel Ninty somehow OWES them the right to mod and then compete with their games, and often post vitriol because Ninty may be taking action behind the scenes.

    In truth, they are helllllllllllaaaaaa fortunate.

    People love to site "company B didn't mind mods and got brought on board later!", but that doesn't mean it has to be universal. Especially with companies like Nintendo, Disney, etc... They are NOTORIOUS about their IPs and their use.

    Also, unlike a lot of those other examples, Smash involves a shit-ton of IPs from other companies, not only other 3rd parties (the obvious ones) but a bunch of other affiliates and 2nd parties as well. Modding Melee probably wouldn't have been as bad, but Brawl modding was a gigantic minefield from day one considering how many companies, individual artists, etc. are involved.

    The fact it went this long and got this big with Ninty only trying to "ignore" it, is massively lucky for them.

    I'm not saying they should be happy for that, or that Nintendo isn't being dickish in how they're treating PM. But I do think the community as a whole needs to realize that there was a reason development stopped that was quite obviously legal, and lashing out or trying to go and release shit on their own despite even the dev's wishes is incredibly dangerous, and a dick move in its own right, considering.

    As an aside, the idea of "well if there was a problem with (character), they'd be said something a year ago!" isn't true either. You see fan projects live until the day of an official release all the time.

    As soon as I saw them adding new characters I worried for them. When I saw Knuckles, I knew it was only a matter of time. They were stomping all over IPs there, "legal gray area" or not.
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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,210
    Her grab is a tether with a lot of start up and recovery. You miss that, you're done. For all the reward you get off of grabs, going for one is a huge risk if it's not confirmed off of a nair, zair, or Paralyzer. Don't forget that most of her damage depends on landing those grabs. Her ground game isn't very good, she excels in the air. The only coverage she has for her back is utilt, and that weakness really becomes apparent with how unsafe it is to go for grabs and side b. That said, she has trouble dealing with rolls.

    Match up-wise, small characters destroy her. Her height compared to theirs makes a lot of her moves whiff, and whiffing with ZSS is BAD. It becomes really hard to land the moves that lead into her grabs, like nair/zair. When you get them in the air, they're hard to combo because they're so small and floaty, but they're easier to kill with an up b(even without the last hit).

    I don't want to consider her executional requirements to be a weakness, because she can do what she can do. How hard it is doesn't matter when discussing her capabilities. After you get over that hurdle, it's a non issue. Difficulty is also relative.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,096
    I don't want to consider her executional requirements to be a weakness, because she can do what she can do. How hard it is doesn't matter when discussing her capabilities. After you get over that hurdle, it's a non issue. Difficulty is also relative.

    Since this mostly seems to be answering me, I mean that people with great DI can wiggle out of Up B kills, which are arguably her biggest ''''''broken'''''' thing about her
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    Her grab isnt that bad. The buffs to tethers this game makes her grab decent. It's not brawl. While still bad compared to regular grabs it's probably the best tether grab or one of the best (link's i think is better)

    Dude nooooooo

    Her grab is bad, when she misses a grab you can go watch an episode of Daredevil before she recovers.

    Tether grabs in general, range aside, are bad. She's just one of the few that gets really really good, consistent rewards for grabbing successfully.

    Having "one of the best" (I don't think that's true) doesn't make it not bad, it just makes it the least bad.

    You can't roll away from it (because you end up rolling into the hitbox at the top), but IIRC you can spot dodge it and attack with a quick jab to interrupt it. Pretty sure I've had that happen to me but it's early morning, I might be trippin' balls.

    If she had a regular, decent grab, she'd be broken though.

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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,241
    Fuck PM.

    Make your own shit, and stop piggybacking on the recognition of someone else's work.

    Calling Nintendo's actions dickish is arrogant. IT'S THEIR SHIT. You knew this was the eventual fate from day fucking one.

    Only this self-important, elitist community would see a company protecting its copyrights as anything but the correct move.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter Justice Has Prevailed! Joined: Posts: 3,208
    po pimpus wrote: »
    *plays and promotes Mega Man fangames and ROMhacks*

    Prove your justice to society.
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,096
    po pimpus wrote: »
    *plays and promotes Mega Man fangames and ROMhacks*

    That's different because Capcpom and shut up
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    Match up-wise, small characters destroy her. Her height compared to theirs makes a lot of her moves whiff, and whiffing with ZSS is BAD. It becomes really hard to land the moves that lead into her grabs, like nair/zair. When you get them in the air, they're hard to combo because they're so small and floaty, but they're easier to kill with an up b(even without the last hit).

    So much this, it's the biggest problem I run into as an average ZSS. I literally HAVE to switch characters for Pikachu, fuck that tiny little rodent lol.

    IMO, he wrecks her.

    Also, because of how her ground game plays, you have to work pretty hard to vary things, because her options to be effective really boil down to a very small list, a lot of which includes SHFF. It's part of why she can be so flowchart-friendly.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,583
    She did have issues against tiny brawler (but that guy is literally satan so fuck him anyways)

    Her nair is similar to ike's as it's her main spacing/footsie tool but she does get a lot from it

    That's the problem im seeing with up b is that it's easy to DI out of. So it's fine. Her uair strings are dumb. Dtilt has been a pretty good poke so far (low hitbox to get under shields). Dsmash would be beyond broken if it hit both sides.

    She's mobile enough that backrolling can be played around (quick jump and crazy good dash). I need more time with her though
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,469
    roknin wrote: »
    So much this, it's the biggest problem I run into as an average ZSS. I literally HAVE to switch characters for Pikachu, fuck that tiny little rodent lol.

    IMO, he wrecks her.

    ...you know, I played and enjoyed Pikachu a lot in the demo...

    ...maybe I should pick up a pocket Pika for that match-up. hTk8sqq.png
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,096
    I'm honestly surprised more people haven't picked up pocket tiny characters against ZSS
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,241
    You know damn well the Mega Man situation is different because

    1. Capcpom REFUSES to care about Mega Man, or his fanbase.

    2. Most of the creators would stop the instant a new Mega Man came out.

    3. Nintendo actually has been trying to embrace the community... Project M is a slap in the face to that show of goodwill.

    MM mods are done out of pure love and respect for the franchise. PM is born of arrogance.

    It's like the kid who honors his dad that died by fixing up his old car versus the one who puts rims and a gaudy paint-job on it against his wishes just to spite him.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,583
    How was pm born of arrogance? People learned that they could hack the wii very easily so they messed around with brawl and saw what they could do with the coding. It started off as making melee 2.0 but turned into something very different. They put a lot of work into the game. Stop being a prick.
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Fuck PM.

    Make your own shit, and stop piggybacking on the recognition of someone else's work.

    Calling Nintendo's actions dickish is arrogant. IT'S THEIR SHIT. You knew this was the eventual fate from day fucking one.

    Only this self-important, elitist community would see a company protecting its copyrights as anything but the correct move.

    They are being dickish about it, there's no getting around that. As in, they could work more with the community in general, and with PM's case they COULD work something out, if only for good PR/goodwill.

    It's certainly not a requirement, though.

    On PM's side, I don't think they're being arrogant as much as they've been naive.

    Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the dev's, for the most part I'm sure they knew all of this from the start.
    roknin wrote: »
    So much this, it's the biggest problem I run into as an average ZSS. I literally HAVE to switch characters for Pikachu, fuck that tiny little rodent lol.

    IMO, he wrecks her.

    ...you know, I played and enjoyed Pikachu a lot in the demo...

    ...maybe I should pick up a pocket Pika for that match-up. hTk8sqq.png

    If ZSS gives you problems, I'd say so. IIRC most ZSS players consider that one of - if not her worst - matchups.

    Kirby isn't fun either, but it's not as terrible. Personally I also don't like GnW against her. He can just duck a TON of her shit, and turn her paralyzer against her. It's still in her favor I think(?), just obnoxious.
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,096
    Just watch Esam vs Nairo @ Smashcon. Matchup sucks
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    How was pm born of arrogance?
    It started off as making melee 2.0

    Stop.
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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,210
    I'm honestly surprised more people haven't picked up pocket tiny characters against ZSS

    Because only two play play ZSS lol
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

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  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter Justice Has Prevailed! Joined: Posts: 3,208
    It's not "arrogance" if you say you can do better and then actually put your money where your mouth is.

    It's also not spite due to the love and care put into representing each character and franchise by giving them many iconic costumes, moves, and animations they were missing in the official series.

    This whole fiasco is really just yet another consequence of our broken copyright and patent law system, especially as it pertains to digital media.
    Prove your justice to society.
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,241
    edited December 2015
    That's the othet thing about ZSS and Rosalina that sets them apart from *redacted*... They have legit weaknesses and bad matchups with other characters...

    For all crying people do over Ryu, all you have to do is pick Mega Man or some else that can zone him well and stay out of his range.

    You can't do that to *redacted*

    And LW, I SWEARTAGAWD, if you call that "breaking the rules" you and the other assholes agreeing with you can fuck right off.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
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