Rebalancing UMvC3 Post Evo 2013

ifbpwnstarifbpwnstar Captain 'Murica Walking WikiJoined: Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭
SRK just now posted an article detailing Capcom's interest in rebalancing the game. I'm sure we all have a long list of what to change and what not, but I urge that we really evaluate concepts that make the game...more chaotic and random versus consistently skillful. So here are my issues with the game and what needs to be fixed beyond simple character buffs/nerfs.

Current State of the Game - Currently the game is still very open to much of the cast unlike MvC2. However 2 archetypes tend to dominate in high level play for the most part: TOD vortexes and Space Control Lockdown. The TOD vortex is the standard 1 combo kill with an ambiguous reset on incoming. Space Control Lockdown is using characters like Morrigan or Vergil to constantly keep the opponent pinned down till you open up. Typically these teams follow the concept of not letting the other player play once things get rolling, which leads to hype comebacks...but generally braindead gameplay once this establishes and turns into a dexterity competition. Gimicks and team tech have begun to thin out fundamentals and neutral game is occurring less and less with how far damage and synergy has come since Vanilla day1.

So what concepts are breaking the game?

TODs are too easy to accomplish and build - TODs make perfect sense in marvel, however currently a lot of characters can accomplish them for little effort, resources, or team consideration. Capcom took strides to lessen meter gain in attempts to lower damage output and nerf Phoenix indirectly, however combos and unexpected no-hitstun extensions have evolved too far and typically most teams can deal 1 mil with a single meter at start without need of X-factor. If your character can't, simply adding a character like Vergil or Spencer, a free reset gimick, or a TAC infinite can give any character a free TOD. Team synergy to accomplish this is a good thing, but we are seeing it become too commonplace with too many mixes. Resources and shells need to be planned more carefully and give the player narrower options if they must have a TOD. There needs to be a sacrifice in utility or some other area to justify an easy TOD with a single character or pairing.

This has lead to making the game less deep by invalidating the need for neutral game resets, managing resources, and making characters who should do TODs invalidated by characters that shouldn't by design (EX: hulk vs zero...why does zero get self 1meter TODs and hulk has to use a specific team???). We also have some characters that deal too much damage for minimal effort, making optimal combos laughably pointless at times (EX: doom s.HS, sjc.MM,footdive,footdive (x3!)).

Incoming vortexes - This is by far the worst problem in UMvC3 right now. In combination with easy access TODs, it's not uncommon for wolverine or zero to open the match up with a hit and literally end the fight in 3 combos with 2 incoming vortexes. For the opponent, the incoming is a guess...it is not a skillful block unless the attacking player messes up and leaves an indication of the side to block. What we have is far too much reward for being hit and no real options for the other player. Sometimes these can be inescapable, give the attacker more free set ups to keep attacking even if you block right, etc... Basically the skill is purely in how ambiguous the set up can be crafted, but for the other player there's no real level of training that can prepare you for high level set ups that are truly ambiguous.

A simple fix of letting incoming choose a direction to emerge or placing a temporary scaling penalty to a combo if hit (similar to a throw which scales damage and hitstun remaining). The offense deserves neutral game advantage, however they do not deserve a free setup with no consideration to the actions of the second player. This is a two player game, not a combo video. You shouldn't be rewarded for a guess scenario that wasn't set up in neutral game. Calling jam session and running under the opponent who can't even see you is not exactly a skill intensive effort that should yield a free TOD followup because they guessed wrong. The incoming opponent is already disadvantaged by a lost teammate and a 4 second penalty denying them access to assists, alpha counters, THCs, DHCs, hard tags, and a forced arc of movement.

Some characters have excelled beyond their design - I think the worst case of this is Zero. Zero has high priority normals, great movement, self setting cross ups/mix ups, gimicks, auto correcting safe buster, etc... This character is blatantly designed to open the opponent up and have a dominating neutral game. The trade off was low damage and low life...however with TODs so highly prevalent, life totals have become more meaningless and Lightning Loop has now made Zero one of the most efficient self sustaining TOD vortexs in the game for very low meter limitations. The character has exceeded his role as a low damage mix/up and heavy priority character that would need a heavy hitter normally to deal damage, burn 3 meter, or depend on drop combo resets. The character now doesn't need to focus on those problems and has a free pass to build teams to fill his other gaps, leaving no real weakness to the character unlike others who must pick and choose what they can or cant have in the end.

This is simple a matter of forcing characters into respective archetypes. Strider is a great example of how Zero should work out. He possess great neutral game advantage and very solid assists, however he must work really hard for damage or burn resources that may not guarantee a full comeback. He is a balanced. As well reset heavy characters should not be out damaging heavy hitters like Hulk who must work hard to get in and land a hit.

X-Factor offensive perks - I fully believe in the concept of a comeback factor in UMvC3. Why? Because without it the game snowballs as you lose utility. It cripples the opponent too much after the fact. The solution however needs to work as an equilibrium...not a get out of jail free insane mode. The idea behind it should be one that is more defensive in nature not offensive. Right now it can be used as an offensive tool for insane dmg buffs, speed to dominate neutral game, and worst of all punishing the opponent on block for a free kill. There's a lot of room for thought, but at the end X-Factor should be about aiding survivability and compensating for loss of utility of an assist. Concepts to play with are more healing, less damage taken, armor, buffing only hyper dmg or certain moves not normals, bursting out of combos or adding hitstun penalty if you get hit, both characters return to neutral (canceling an attack but removing the freebie punish factor), etc... X-factor needs to balance the playing feel, not hand you control.

TACs - In short TAC infinites need to go, but more importantly the concepts of TACs don't work. TAC's give 3 specific perks and a free character swap out. The idea is that the 3 perks will give a mindgame of wagering at risk of dropping the combo. Up - more dmg, down - free meter, side - steal meter. Now combos have made up and down completely pointless since you will likely deal more damage and gain enough meter to make it a mute point. The side is the only true perk that gives the defending player a coherent mind game. If the offense doesn't care about stealing meter, they likely don't care what option they pick so long as it works. The mind game is broken, we are now just guessing.

TAC's need to accept the trade off that you broke the combo and the swap out and immediate perk should be more than enough with a small ender after wards to wrap it up. This means the up and down need to be reevaluated. Down should provide more meter or something related, and up needs a whole new perk added to it. Perks that would create a solid mind game of utility between the 3 are: regen red health, dmg or speed buff after the combo ends, snap back, debuff to opponent such as slow, etc... So rather than be about guessing it becomes more about locking out the option you dont want your opponent to get. This also means the combo following should be very limited as the rewards are already justified for the attempt.

Unblockable/inescapable vortexes - This is a gray area, sometimes this is justified by needing a very specific team that can fall apart to make it a risk/reward, but sometimes they can cheat the game and win the whole match. This is mostly still in relation to incoming, but beyond the initial incoming attempt there's some dirty vortexes that can repeat to get easy TODs and too many free set ups. There should be unblockables indeed, but in terms of free setups they simply just need to be looked at. Being hit by an unblockable should come at the price of doing something wrong in the neutral game to get set up.

SOMETHING TO REMEMBER - The FGC adopts a wonderful concept of "adapt, don't nerf". However I feel this is a philosophy that makes a better player, not a better game. At the end of the day you need to ask, does current tech add depth? Or invalidate options and make it more shallow? Buffs can fix neutral game and output issues, but sometimes rewards and options are too strong with disregard to what the other player can do. I see UMvC3 as intensely over buffed. Giving you tools to fight zero or vergil doesn't change the fact they output way too much damage and gain too much reward once you are hit or blocking. Basically it's like firing at the hip with bazookas right now. We need to see neutral game options become more prevalent and free kills and set ups become more justified. I think it's fair to say that sometimes the character makes a bigger difference than the player more often than it should.
Post edited by ifbpwnstar on
UMvC3: Cap (SS) | Dante (jam) | Vergil (RS) and Vergil (RS) | Morrigan (meter) | Dante (Jam)
SC5: Astaroth
SC4: Ivy, Rock

Comments

  • Chukz15Chukz15 Low Tier Option select is the future. Joined: Posts: 492 ✭✭
    edited July 2013
    I don't see TODs going away, so up the health a bit. No reason why Sentinel as such little health (biased)

    Add some characters? (They are only able to patch with licence right?)

    Remove infinites at least(Really don't need them since there are TOD combos I'm looking @ you Zero, Nova/Spencer etc.)

    Nerf incoming mixups a bit so there is SOME chance. There were alot of 3-0s in pools @ evo, and I see a lot of players eat incoming mixups and they lose the game because of it.

    Buff ALL low tier characters. Give Tron her invincible assist back? Heck give them all an assist buff, or if it is possible.... CUSTOM ASSIST!

    Can you guys imagine all the possibilities with custom assists?

    Post edited by Chukz15 on
    PSN:Chukz15
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  • AlphaCommandoAlphaCommando King of the MSPainters! Joined: Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Chukz15 wrote: »
    Can you guys imagine all the possibilities with custom assists?

    I think the general consensus of that was that it would just make the game even more broken with assists like Frank's photo shoot and Dormammu's flame carpet. I made a discussion thread about it here:

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/175846/choose-your-own-assist

    There's a couple of posts misunderstanding how the input would work and a bit of talk about super assists, but there are some good points about the advantages and disadvantages of using custom assists.
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  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,296
    Posted this on unity but I'll leave this here as well. Thoughts?

    Also strider buffs are with XF nerf in mind so don't flip out:

    Here's some suggestions and balance changes I've thought of over the past year or so:

    System

    - X Factor is the same level regardless of characters left. No more ridiculous XF2-3 comebacks. Length last longer with less characters left still. Just no more damage + speed for less characters.
    - Add a burst, either X factor burst which lets you burst by using your x factor guage and provides a shorter duration XF boost or meter burst like in TVC. Just make them baitable and punishable ALA guilty gear and make it so you cannot combo off of them.
    - Blockstun carries over from air to ground when landing to prevent people from mashing out as soon as they hit the ground.
    - Minimum air height on air throws. People shouldn't be able to air throw a pixel off the ground.
    - Throws require an input instead of being an option select with H to prevent people from option selecting everything. IE: L+S or something is throw.
    - Possibly let the player choose what side / height they come in on to prevent the game from just being 100%'s into entry mixups.
    - Remove TAC infinites / TAC mechanic in general or change the mechanic.

    Character Specific

    Vergil:
    - Spiral Swords is either one of the follow ups (make the shootable swords the level one) or make it a level 2 / 3 with free follow ups.
    - Spiral Swords has more startup to hit Vergil out of it to prevent him from just activating it and winning neutral for free. You can hit Strider out of Oroboros easily and it's a level 3.
    - Helm breaker slower / less safe on block / cannot be canceled with S.
    - Rapid Slash cannot be super canceled on block.

    Zero:
    - L Lightning not super cancelable on landing recovery to prevent lightning loop.
    - Buster not positive on block.

    Morrigan:
    - Increase hurtbox / decrease hitbox on shell kick.
    - Astral vision fireballs go away when Morrigan is hit.
    - No meter gain during astral vision. Astral vision has shorter duration.
    - Increase the size of her crouching hitbox.

    Dante:
    - Add some utility to his special moves.
    - Bring back invincibility to hammer to help against in close pressure. Increase landing recovery / punishability to balance.
    - Decrease damage scaling.
    - Make follow ups to his special moves easier on whiff IE: Reverb shock into fireworks.
    - Add comboability after his throws.
    - Make the gunshot follow ups to H stand alone moves.

    Strider:
    - Launcher now reaches when used at the max range of his normals. Possibly make his launcher move him forward to max st.H length?
    - Make oroboros projectiles super durability so they don't lose to things like astral vision.
    - Increase damage.
    - Possibly make ragnarok a reduced damage level 1 to help with damage output since he already has a level 3 with oroboros.
    - Animal summons quicker / more durability. Make them not lose to physical attacks.
    - Reduce M excalibur recovery so it can be comboed off of when air to aired.
    - Make his slide (df+H) cancelable into the orb release.
    - Tracking on Vajra better.

    Dormammu:
    - Make his normals not whiff on most crouching characters.
    - Retain air options after air dark spell / dark hole.
    - Pillar assist tracks opponent location.

    Doctor Doom:
    - Hidden Missiles go away when doom is hit.
    - Less knockdown time on S (footdive).
    - Hold a button during finger laser super to focus the lasers into a beam to add more use for the move.

    Ammy:
    - Make sword / whip stance more useful.

    Arthur:
    - Give him a dash.

    Hsien Ko:
    - Give her a dash / increase the speed of her air dash to retain her darkstalkers playstyle.
    - Give her an OTG outside of supers.
    - Allow her to cancel pendulum at any point in the move ala darkstalkers.
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  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 Ask-a-Greninja Joined: Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Posted this on unity but I'll leave this here as well. Thoughts?

    System
    Spoiler:
    I like all these system change suggestions, especially the burst element of X-Factor.
    I love the TAC mechanic in theory, but it seriously needs an overhaul.
    I also think the throw input needs to be thought out better, though. For sure they need to remove the dumb option selects with d+H moves, but you can't just replace the input with L+S as certain characters (well, at least one in P.Wright) already use it for a move.

    Character Specific

    Vergil:
    Spoiler:
    All of these are good suggestions individually, but all together I think they would hurt his overall design. The best one is easily increasing the startup and/or recovery on SS, but I also love the idea of making Blistering Swords the standard with Spiral and Storm as the follow ups.

    Zero:
    Spoiler:
    While Zero obviously needs something changed, I'm not sure that these are the ways to do it. I honestly feel the easiest way to fix him is to remove the soft knockdown on Lightning, or at least L-Lightning.

    Morrigan:
    Spoiler:
    As with Vergil, I don't dislike any of these on their own, but hitting her with all of these would pretty much remove most of the good things about her. The best possible solution is to remove meter gain during Astral; doing that would make the duration more tolerable and not necessitate fireballs disappearing. Her hurtbox could probably use an adjustment, but I don't think it's what she really needs.

    Dante:
    Spoiler:
    Dante does not need more damage. He gets lots of hits in his combos and builds a crap ton of meter and that's what he's good at. Because of those two factors he could probably do with a little less hitstun scaling, but damage is not the issue here. I actually like Ultimate Dante as is, since they already fixed a lot of his issues from Vanilla.

    Strider:
    Spoiler:
    As long as you don't boost damage TOO much, I agree with all of these.

    Dormammu:
    Spoiler:
    He really does need to be not helpless after an accidental spell/hole in the air. Pillar tracking would make the assist infinitely more useful, though I question how broken that might be. Then again, we already have Missiles and Vajra, so how bad could it be?

    Doctor Doom:
    Spoiler:
    If Missiles disappear with Doom is hit, I think they need to come out a bitfaster, otherwise you completely negate their use (I feel the same way about Sentinel Drones, too). While I think many people would prefer Foot Dive to be less stupid, I'm not sure how exactly they would accomplish it.

    Ammy:
    Spoiler:
    Glaive stance has plenty of use as is, but I agree that Bead stance needs more utility.

    Arthur:
    Spoiler:
    I'm just not sure if I agree with this. It would help him, certainly, but you know what would help more? Changing the recovery on King's Armor to a SOFT knockdown (quick recovery after touching the ground) instead of a HARD knockdown (vulnerable to OTG). That alone would massively improve him.

    Hsien Ko:
    Spoiler:
    I don't know that she really needs a separate OTG, but the other two are really good. A speed boost in general is sorely needed.
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  • AKZuMAKZuM I Make Blizzards Joined: Posts: 97
    OP as the right idea, At least someone on this site is thinking straight instead of screaming for a bunch of unnecessary changes.
  • ifbpwnstarifbpwnstar Captain 'Murica Walking Wiki Joined: Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭
    I'm liking the pace of these discussions. I dont agree with all those changes but its the right ideas. I feel people are too deep into the tiers. My honest opinion? I don't see D-S tiers, I see a couple of C's a lot of B's and AS...then like 15+ S, SS, SSS tiers. The game needs to dial back and make players think, not autopilot their options. Playing both Cap a stupidly fair character and Vergil a stupidly unfair character I can tell you I really get a feel for the difference in what it takes for the other to win and how easy it is to build a team with one instead of the other. I would really like the game at a level Iron Mans, Hulk, Caps, Thors, Weskers, Taskmasters, Akumas in terms of power. I feel these are great character designs that showcase a much better idea of strengths/weaknesses and play styles. There needs to be a look at mechanics more and hopefully those changes will remove the need to cast around too many nerfs.
    UMvC3: Cap (SS) | Dante (jam) | Vergil (RS) and Vergil (RS) | Morrigan (meter) | Dante (Jam)
    SC5: Astaroth
    SC4: Ivy, Rock

  • Huggy BearHuggy Bear Scoops Häagen-Dazs® Joined: Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭✭
    UnSaxon51 wrote: »
    Dante:
    Spoiler:
    Dante does not need more damage. He gets lots of hits in his combos and builds a crap ton of meter and that's what he's good at. Because of those two factors he could probably do with a little less hitstun scaling, but damage is not the issue here. I actually like Ultimate Dante as is, since they already fixed a lot of his issues from Vanilla.

    Yeah...Nah...Nah.

    No.
    Logan / Spencer / Gouki

  • EnDaNickofTimeEnDaNickofTime Joined: Posts: 731 ✭✭✭
    General Mechanics:
    -TAC infinites removed; Redo TAC Mechanic
    -make game more Reset-oriented; or make it so that all characters can TOD.
    -Either allow quick execution characters to have better rewards (i.e Okizeme) or longer combos, (i.e advanced storm combos and Felicia combos)
    -Either normalize Install hyper meter gain or Remove meter gain from all Install hypers
    -fix hitboxes
    -Faster charge times for charge characters

    Morrigan:
    -Nerf Fireball damage back to 70,000
    - Decreased start up on Soul drain

    Felicia:
    -allow air delta kick to create a forced ground bounce. Less start up/ increase hitbox of attack.
    -Cat Spike H is has more forward momentum, allowing it to jump over projectiles.
    -Cat and Mouse has less startup and recovery
    -Have all of felicia's normals have counterhit properties to differentiate her from wesker and wolverine.
    -Less recovery on Kitty Helper.

    Vergil:
    -Remove RTG
    -Decrease Durability on Spiral swords or change blistering swords with spiral swords; Shorten Time span of swords
    -Remove Teleport on Helm Breaker

    Trish:
    -Give back air options ( i.e Multiple Hopscotch)

    Arthur:
    -Decrease Startup/Recovery of Dashing attack
    -Triple Jump or Higher double jump
    -Goddess Bracelet Air ok
    -Remove Hard Knockdown on Armor
    -Movement speed increase w/o armor
    -Interchangeable projectiles in an attack string (i.e. 2 daggers 1 lance)

    Strider:
    -change priority on Legion and Oroboros
    -Strider projectiles absorb other 1 hit projectiles and 1 physical hit

    Hsien Ko:
    -Faster startup on specials
    -Cancellable pendulum
    -faster teleport dash speed
    -hold left or right after dash to do extended dash (i.e Blackheart)

    Haggar:
    -Give dashing grab (i.e Zangief)

    Tron:
    -less recovery on normals
    -Faster command normals
  • MILFMILF Devil's advocate Joined: Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭
    Pointless leave the game be.
    Get Your Hands Off My Penis
    In Latveria we have no lawyers. Only corpses.
    Bring me fantastic 4.

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    :smokin:
    ...back to basic. SSF4, UMVC3, TK, MK, SFA, ST, BR. bored
  • BallTapperBallTapper Hit em with the leg. Joined: Posts: 473 ✭✭✭
    make assists more punishable like marvel 2 7jk1MJs.png
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  • Diek StiekemDiek Stiekem Such Heroic Nonsense! Joined: Posts: 2,462 mod
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