Magic the Gathering Thread

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  • The DamnedThe Damned Hope: You can't believe in it Joined: Posts: 10,764 mod
    (It's almost a shame that Stifle isn't Modern-legal, what with all the fetchlands.)

    That said, it still reminds me that I still find it weird that both Trickbind and Shadow of Doubt basically no play in Modern despite the fact they are Modern-legal. I'm expecting them be 4-ofs or anything, but being almost entirely absent is still weird.
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • BIG BAD MOGBIG BAD MOG Tough, yet Fluffy Joined: Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The Damned wrote: »
    (I'm guessing by "Stiflenaught" you mean Phyrexian Dreadnaught plus Stifle.)

    Huh. The local Prerelease for Eldritch Moon is $25, requires tickets, and seems to only available online possibly. That's...new.

    Yes. I once was interested in going full on combo for it, but it just didn't pack the same combo wallop that reanimator, sneak and show, and omnitell packed for cheating in fatties. I like to whip out the combo game 1 and then proceed to focus on a delver/pyromancer tempo g2 if I know the opponent will want to pack hate.

  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,391
    The Damned wrote: »
    (It's almost a shame that Stifle isn't Modern-legal, what with all the fetchlands.)

    That said, it still reminds me that I still find it weird that both Trickbind and Shadow of Doubt basically no play in Modern despite the fact they are Modern-legal. I'm expecting them be 4-ofs or anything, but being almost entirely absent is still weird.

    Does Trickbind see any significant Legacy play?
  • The DamnedThe Damned Hope: You can't believe in it Joined: Posts: 10,764 mod
    (Sigh. I doubt that I'm going to prerelease at this point. Again.

    Also sorry to hear that people in your area are such bitches still, Pertho. Be careful about that, especially since you're in Arizona, right?)

    Are you genuinely asking me? Or using that to demonstrate how relatively non-viable it is despite being in the Stifle being legal in Legacy?

    It should be noted that I don't play, Legacy, so I don't know if the former. If the latter, then touché I guess, though again at least there Stifle is actually legal unlike in Modern. So Trickbind actually has competition in Modern despite not being subject to Force of Will, especially since combo decks tend to want play the most inexpensive cards that enable their combos.
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,007 mod
    El Paso, Tx. The good thing is that the owner I'm working with really wants to have a drama free, fun place for the players. He also wants all the stores to have a good relationship with each other. Right now I've helped him facilitate the hell out of that. Next phase is building up rapport with the community so that we can get them on board with things going on. I had an M:TG banner a close friend gave me as a parting gift that i'm lending the store so that they can have some that lets people know this is the M:TG area. Gotta assemble a bunch of basics for the Prereleases. On top of that I'm taking all of my extra playmats so that if we have people with out them, I have stuff to lend.

    So yeah, the thing with the douche is going to be an issue said person forced on everybody. There is no way around that. But the stuff we have planned and the things we've done are all really positive so far. Both of us are on the same page of not letting this one ugly incident ruin the start of a lot of great things.
    Ronin Chaos on Pertho:

    "Oh, Pertho. You complete me."
    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • shinquickmanshinquickman Joined: Posts: 1,831
    Oh, right. Forgot to talk about the prerelease. EMN is as expected, passable but not exciting. Just like Dragons of Tarkir, Magic Origins, and Gatecrash, Aggro/tempo is a more dominating strategy than the typical cobbling a pile-o-goodstuff mindset in sealed. Also, the new mechanics are very straightforward and don't really open up new decks like Delirium and Madness do. Straight SOI was more enjoyable even if Blue was on life support in playability. I had more fun watching my nephew play and learning the ropes of the set. He was very sharp with enabling delirium, such as saccing his almost-online Lupine Predator with an emerge card just to get more card types in his yard. Plus, he opened a foil Emrakul and managed to cast it seven times the whole day. In one match he even lived the dream and cast his opponent's Ruthless Expulsion for a 5-for-1. However, he made a handful of misplays in combat and played too slowly since he put two of his games to a draw. Still, he was never nervous, played better than I've ever seen him play, and just had an all around great time.
    TimeAttack: Grand Coward of SRK since November 18th, 2015
  • BIG BAD MOGBIG BAD MOG Tough, yet Fluffy Joined: Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    So apparently Card Kingdom does 4 pack sealed for $15 with rewards a pack/win. All of the LGS I have been to sell packs for $4 minimum. I find this quite a steal since I do enjoy sealed from time to time and this will help me get a side deck to possibly enter standard again. 30 card decks sound really weird.

    On another note, anyone understand the hype over collective brutality? I can understand its use for reanimate and delirium, possibly even dredge and loam decks, but I feel that the decks that run snapcaster might be overvaluing it? For instance, I know that thought scour is huge for delver decks because it's instant speed, cheap, can fuel delve, and is easy to recur with snapcaster. Collective brutality is sorcery speed, 2 cmc, and pitching the cards from your hand can cause you to lose card advantage if anything is interrupted. On one hand I would like to try it in both standard and modern, but on the other hand I feel like my knowledge of the game is half cocked to the point that I might sort of see something but not really.

    I guess I kind of don't want to get bitten like my Anguished Unmaking try. Instant speed, able to exile anything, all at the cost of 3 life sounds good on paper but ends up nuking me a ton in practicality (will never forget the time I had to fetch->shock and throw out Anguished Unmaking against an early tasigur. 6 life and one turn for a 1 for 1 card exchange).
  • BullDancerBullDancer Mentos, The Freshmaker Joined: Posts: 9,424
    edited July 2016
    It's removal and duress all in one. I can't see how that isn't good lol. Honestly I would side something like that though and bring it in against creature decks. Seems pretty legit against burn strategies because being able to gain life and throw away a card and kill a creature is insane.
    "Rock abandoned Neesa there like you were gonna abandon your son and wife and live alone with your TV"~Akuma-HAX
  • BIG BAD MOGBIG BAD MOG Tough, yet Fluffy Joined: Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The reason is that it requires me to pitch a card. I see it as kind of an even trade if I do so.
  • BullDancerBullDancer Mentos, The Freshmaker Joined: Posts: 9,424
    I'd call it perfectly even in most situations. Losing cards for extra effects is>Paying extra mana for each effect.

    For a 2 mana card that does three things, it doesn't cost as many resources as it should. It's significantly better when pitching things that can actually be cast in grave or off the discard though.
    "Rock abandoned Neesa there like you were gonna abandon your son and wife and live alone with your TV"~Akuma-HAX
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    edited July 2016
    On another note, anyone understand the hype over collective brutality?

    Utility cards that can do multiple things passably have historically been good.

    Also, WTF:
    http://archive.is/Xkl0S
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • The DamnedThe Damned Hope: You can't believe in it Joined: Posts: 10,764 mod
    (Ha at the zombie Planeswalker promos up on Mythic Spoiler.)

    It's also a good discard outlet in a Standard that currently still cares about the graveyard even after Delve has left.

    That said, Collective Brutality probably is at least slightly overrated since it's a) not White, b) not Green, and c) can't kill Sylvan Advocate just by itself, but it's at least a good card.

    The best card with Escalate is doubtless going to be Collective Effort though because that is a) White, which is basically a superpower in current Standard, and b) in possession of an even more lenient Escalate "cost", especially in the same block that gave us collective vigilance through Always Watching.

    collectiveeffort.jpg

    Seriously that card is almost as dumb as Dromoka's Command, Collected Company, and Repel the Abominable, with the only thing "holding it back" is that it's Sorcery instead of Instant like the aforementioned three.
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,007 mod
    Pre-releases went great. Took all the lands for the event. On top of took a bowl full of dice, extra tokens just in case and all of playmats in case people wanted to borrow one for funsies. The playmat idea worked out pretty well.

    Right now about to cause drama in my community though.
    Ronin Chaos on Pertho:

    "Oh, Pertho. You complete me."
    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • The DamnedThe Damned Hope: You can't believe in it Joined: Posts: 10,764 mod
    (...Because?)

    Regardless, good to hear that pre-release went well for you, especially given all the other bullshit you've gone through.
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • BIG BAD MOGBIG BAD MOG Tough, yet Fluffy Joined: Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I guess the only way I can really appreciate Collective Brutality is looking at it from a MB "I'm not sure what I'm playing against" or playing a GY/Delver based deck. A group of people on the modern fae primer were psyched over the card and I guess I could understand how you might be OK with using it to pitch "dead" cards (Mistbind or cryptic vs burn or removal vs combo/TRON).

    On another note, I will probably shell out for Ancestral Visions. I had only playtested it as a MB feature but it really shines against GB/x and control decks. Some fae players run it SB and it feels awkward to spend a good amount on just a sideboard card, but hey now that I have a good paying job I can invest in my hobbies now!

    Seattle also seems to have a pretty big legacy following. I'll see where I am at in the future to figure out which deck I am interested in going all-in for. After playing the stiflenaught delver deck, I am enjoying more than just storm.
  • PreppyPreppy act like you're used to it Joined: Posts: 14,138 admin
    They opened up a new Magic shop in the next city over that was pretty awesome, and awesome enough that Wizards was going to be filming there today... and then the building across the street burst into flames and charred and flooded (fire hose water) the shop. Uggggh. Thankfully they had insurance, but --- sucks.

    http://zachd.com/mvc2 : My giant archive of fighting game videos, centered around MvC2.
    "If you don't feel like killing yourself every time you lose you will never be good. Apologyman is going to be a monster someday as long as he keeps staying miserable." --Brightside6382

  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    I played FNM and saw all of the chase cards of EMN in action except for Hanweir Garrison and Liliana (basically Thalia, Spell Queller, Tamiyo, emerge stuff). They were good but not great, except for Tamiyo. She seemed pretty bad actually. Aside from one game where I saw her -2 act as a multi-turn falter, she was mostly a bad Concentrate.

    It's possible that the decklists were unrefined so soon after release, but basically everything good seems to be tempo-reliant. If you play them while ahead and they manage to stick, they will put the game out of reach for your opponent. If you fall behind they won't help much.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 3,267
    spell Queller is pretty gross. We already had reflector mage, now his brother is here, too.


  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    Emanuelb wrote: »
    spell Queller is pretty gross. We already had reflector mage, now his brother is here, too.

    I know that tempo is not overpowered in Standard right now, but because it is my most hated archetype by a wide margin I am annoyed by the addition of even more powerful tempo cards to the format.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 3,267
    I don't like this archetype either, since the days of Jeskai tempo. I think Queller has a chance to become problematic simply because he slots so well in Banto Coco, a deck that was already one of the best. It is week one, but Coco decks almost crushed the scg open this weekend.

    Btw, I'm surprised you dislike tempo decks so much - you played during faeries ? (I heard it was pretty miserable back then)


  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    edited July 2016
    Emanuelb wrote: »
    Btw, I'm surprised you dislike tempo decks so much - you played during faeries ? (I heard it was pretty miserable back then)

    I wasn't playing during the Standard dominance of Faeries, but I played Extended during the heyday of Miracle Gro and I have a ton of experience against turn one Delver, turn two Wasteland and Stifle your Fetch Land. I was also active during the days when Tempo meant a first turn Unmask, followed by a ritual into Phyrexian Negator then a Skittering Skirge next turn.

    I dislike Tempo because almost all Tempo decks are just "designed to get lucky".

    1. Aggro decks achieve consistency through redundance (all your cards are similar, so you always draw the same type of cards).
    2. Midrange and Control decks achieve consistency through resilience (you can play the long game so eventually you will draw into your tools).
    3. Combo decks achieve consistency through abundant filtering and tutoring (with enough tutors and Brainstorms you can find what you need).
    4. Tempo decks are inconsistent. You might think of tempo decks are a kind of combo deck where your combo is "early threat(s) + relevant disruption". You need to draw the right cards, and at the right time, for your deck to work.

    Based on the above I internally think of Tempo decks as a kind of bad combo deck. You kinda hope you have your first turn Delver or second turn Goyf, and that you can draw into a good enough mix of disruption to kill the opponent before the inherent inconsistency of your deck become too big a problem. You've got a couple of cantrips in there to smooth draws, but nowhere near the level of a real combo deck.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • BR3N7BR3N7 Todays "fake news" is tomorrows "everyone does it" Joined: Posts: 2,024
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    Emanuelb wrote: »
    Btw, I'm surprised you dislike tempo decks so much - you played during faeries ? (I heard it was pretty miserable back then)

    I wasn't playing during the Standard dominance of Faeries, but I played Extended during the heyday of Miracle Gro and I have a ton of experience against turn one Delver, turn two Wasteland and Stifle your Fetch Land. I was also active during the days when Tempo meant a first turn Unmask, followed by a ritual into Phyrexian Negator then a Skittering Skirge next turn.

    I dislike Tempo because almost all Tempo decks are just "designed to get lucky".

    1. Aggro decks achieve consistency through redundance (all your cards are similar, so you always draw the same type of cards).
    2. Midrange and Control decks achieve consistency through resilience (you can play the long game so eventually you will draw into your tools).
    3. Combo decks achieve consistency through abundant filtering and tutoring (with enough tutors and Brainstorms you can find what you need).
    4. Tempo decks are inconsistent. You might think of tempo decks are a kind of combo deck where your combo is "early threat(s) + relevant disruption". You need to draw the right cards, and at the right time, for your deck to work.

    Based on the above I internally think of Tempo decks as a kind of bad combo deck. You kinda hope you have your first turn Delver or second turn Goyf, and that you can draw into a good enough mix of disruption to kill the opponent before the inherent inconsistency of your deck become too big a problem. You've got a couple of cantrips in there to smooth draws, but nowhere near the level of a real combo deck.

    A) It was more like Swamp Ritual Gix Gix Negator Unmask then Duress the next turn or Vendetta/Snuff Out. I recently ranked this deck as my #1 all time favorite but there are like 6 decks that are super close.

    Tempo isn't about getting lucky. Delver/Tempo is a 1 for 1 essentially "fair" deck that applies early pressure and goes until they can gain a board state where they get a 2 for 1 (Young Peezy) or run you out of resources this is why Grixis Delver is the best Delver deck right now and its not even close. RUG is great if you draw play every round as Stifle is one of the top 20 cards in Legacy and Goyf isn't Peezy but some could say is better?

    And they are not inconsistent with 8 amazing cantrips to clean up draws(same as ANT (well I run 10 in ANT but sometimes I shave to 8/9)/less mana needed etc... This is where the difference between Delver and D&T is as they get to that point where the 1 for 1's are done and the don't get card filtration and reply on Top Deck's.

    But a deck like Delver is the MOST consistent deck in especially Legacy as its ALWAYS proactive. Think of it as like a character that doesn't have ANY 4-6 or 6-4's but will be like 4.7-5.3 every single round. While a deck like Miracles/ANT have 6.5-3.5's and 3.5-6.5's.

  • shinquickmanshinquickman Joined: Posts: 1,831
    edited July 2016
    LOL the Gatewatch got freaking owned.

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/promised-end-2016-07-27
    Long story short. Tamiyo and Nissa didn't imprison Emrakul in the moon as was expected. Emrakul imprisoned herself, mentally manipulating Tamiyo to use her forbidden scroll and to change its contents around. Apparently Emrakul is not "ready" yet and so she seems to be using the moon as a sort of cocoon.
    TimeAttack: Grand Coward of SRK since November 18th, 2015
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    Delver/Tempo is a 1 for 1 essentially "fair" deck that applies early pressure and goes until they can gain a board state where they get a 2 for 1 (Young Peezy) or run you out of resources

    Delver decks rely on early threats backed by cheap disruption to win before they run out of gas. I have never lost to a tempo deck due to running out of resources. Maybe if Isochron Scepter was a thing I could see it, but since when can Gurmag Anglers and Deathrite Shamans outgrind counter-top, shardless or any combo deck? I'm not even sure Delver can outgrind Burn if it goes for the Lavamancer/Bridge value plan.

    Then again, I haven't played Legacy seriously since Modern became a thing. Is Delver the new value deck? How does that work? At some point the opponent will have traded all his cards one-for-one and he will be drawing real cards while the Delver player is drawing Stifles, Spell Pierces and Cabal Therapies. What happens then?
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    And they are not inconsistent with 8 amazing cantrips to clean up draws(same as ANT

    Legacy delver lists are amazingly consistent compared to Standard decks, but compared to other Legacy decks I think they are trash. While ANT just needs to find the right cards, Delver needs to get them at the right time. A turn one Delver is top tier. A turn three Delver is garbage. And we're not even considering the added layer of luck when Delver does or doesn't flip naturally, and the vast gulf in performance when the deck is on the play vs drawing first.

    And moving out of Legacy for a moment, this discussion is not really limited to Delver decks. Think of Jeskai Tempo from Standard. That deck had all the tools to go toe-to-toe against Abzan, but in the end Abzan ruled the format because midrange is just structurally more sound than Tempo. I would argue that Jeskai's cards were significantly more powerful than Abzan's options at every point in the curve (with the possible exception of Rhino) but those cards were only powerful on the specific turn that they were meant to be dropped. Turn three Rabblemaster is top tier. Turn five Rabblemaster is garbage.
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    But a deck like Delver is the MOST consistent deck

    I personally believe that Miracles is the most consistent deck, but this is arguable. In my local Legacy community people haven't changed archetypes in years, and the Miracles players are the most consistent performers by far.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • BR3N7BR3N7 Todays "fake news" is tomorrows "everyone does it" Joined: Posts: 2,024
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    Delver/Tempo is a 1 for 1 essentially "fair" deck that applies early pressure and goes until they can gain a board state where they get a 2 for 1 (Young Peezy) or run you out of resources

    Delver decks rely on early threats backed by cheap disruption to win before they run out of gas. I have never lost to a tempo deck due to running out of resources. Maybe if Isochron Scepter was a thing I could see it, but since when can Gurmag Anglers and Deathrite Shamans outgrind counter-top, shardless or any combo deck? I'm not even sure Delver can outgrind Burn if it goes for the Lavamancer/Bridge value plan.

    Then again, I haven't played Legacy seriously since Modern became a thing. Is Delver the new value deck? How does that work? At some point the opponent will have traded all his cards one-for-one and he will be drawing real cards while the Delver player is drawing Stifles, Spell Pierces and Cabal Therapies. What happens then?
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    And they are not inconsistent with 8 amazing cantrips to clean up draws(same as ANT

    Legacy delver lists are amazingly consistent compared to Standard decks, but compared to other Legacy decks I think they are trash. While ANT just needs to find the right cards, Delver needs to get them at the right time. A turn one Delver is top tier. A turn three Delver is garbage. And we're not even considering the added layer of luck when Delver does or doesn't flip naturally, and the vast gulf in performance when the deck is on the play vs drawing first.

    And moving out of Legacy for a moment, this discussion is not really limited to Delver decks. Think of Jeskai Tempo from Standard. That deck had all the tools to go toe-to-toe against Abzan, but in the end Abzan ruled the format because midrange is just structurally more sound than Tempo. I would argue that Jeskai's cards were significantly more powerful than Abzan's options at every point in the curve (with the possible exception of Rhino) but those cards were only powerful on the specific turn that they were meant to be dropped. Turn three Rabblemaster is top tier. Turn five Rabblemaster is garbage.
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    But a deck like Delver is the MOST consistent deck

    I personally believe that Miracles is the most consistent deck, but this is arguable. In my local Legacy community people haven't changed archetypes in years, and the Miracles players are the most consistent performers by far.

    Delver runs the best game 1 plan, drop threat and back it up and make YOU have IT and assuming thats 50/50 then the battle is half over. Sure Delver can keep the FOWless hand on the draw and just lose but it can keep a strong hand that no fair/some non fair decks can beat. Yes top into balance is a losing 1-2 punch for most decks hence why Miracles is the BEST deck. But its runs on a different plain and the best way I can describe it is to compare to fighting games. Miracles is equal to Super SF4 when Honda was top nigga. He wasn't best cause he is like Nash is today but cause he had SOOOOO many 6-4's they added up but had those random underplayed 4-6's/3-7's he had to overcome like a MUD or Post that Miracles just scoops to.

    yes a BUG deck vs merica in a type 2 environment isn't fair. Cause blue is now treated like garbage cause they don't want blue getting better cards than they already have. Since I did follow type 2 then it was even and the lack of a Wasteland is different and made the tempo deck very very very weak.

    Tempo isn't good outside legacy and even vintage cause the card pool lacks the needed cards like WL.

    Your local meta is defined like you said and I am sure that most of these players are "weak" / "scrubby" / "wanna win only" cause the Miracles player can make a local SB and be so well favored it would be considered AKUMA ST broken or the local meta lacks the needed 3-7's to keep the miracles in check cause if it did/does than Miracles is the ONLY deck I would sleeve if I wanted to win.
  • The DamnedThe Damned Hope: You can't believe in it Joined: Posts: 10,764 mod
    (Haha at none of the Eldritch Moon cards making a big impact yet outside of the one of the obviously powerful ones.)

    Granted, it's only been formally released for a weekend, but I'm more laughing at the fact that some people thought that Spell Queller wasn't going to be obnoxious and that new Liliana was actually bad. I can't tell whether said people have been spoiled by power creep or are just naturally spoiled (and stupid).

    The only real surprises are no It That Rides As One (yet), the general down-turn in Wr Humans decks for some reason (unlike GW Tokens plummeting somewhat predictably due to lack of fliers), and Tamiyo not seeing much use (yet) despite Bant still be go-to three-color combination.

    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    Emanuelb wrote: »
    spell Queller is pretty gross. We already had reflector mage, now his brother is here, too.

    I know that tempo is not overpowered in Standard right now, but because it is my most hated archetype by a wide margin I am annoyed by the addition of even more powerful tempo cards to the format.

    You hate Tempo more than Ramp? Even with your explanations, that's still a bit surprising.

    LOL the Gatewatch got freaking owned.

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/promised-end-2016-07-27
    Long story short. Tamiyo and Nissa didn't imprison Emrakul in the moon as was expected. Emrakul imprisoned herself, mentally manipulating Tamiyo to use her forbidden scroll and to change its contents around. Apparently Emrakul is not "ready" yet and so she seems to be using the moon as a sort of cocoon.

    Well that's a stupid, nonsensical ending all around even if it means that Innistrad gets to exist for at least a little longer.

    In before Tamiyo dies horribly despite being far more likable than Jace.
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    edited July 2016
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    Delver runs the best game 1 plan

    If by "Delver" you mean "Dredge", then I agree.
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    drop threat and back it up and make YOU have IT and assuming thats 50/50 then the battle is half over.

    That's true, but virtually all Legacy decks have insane openers.
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    Sure Delver can keep the FOWless hand on the draw and just lose but it can keep a strong hand that no fair/some non fair decks can beat... Tempo isn't good outside legacy and even vintage cause the card pool lacks the needed cards like WL.

    This is what I've been saying all along! Delver gives you the possibility of amazing nut draws in exchange for an increased chance of having clunky draws. I see Delver in Legacy as a testament to the power of BS, Ponder and WL.
    BR3N7 wrote: »
    I am sure that most of these players are "weak" / "scrubby" / "wanna win only"

    I wouldn't be so sure about this. I dunno about the US but here in Japan most of the Legacy scrubs have simply quit. It's mostly serious players now, because the main tournaments are all in Hareruya (Saito's shop) and that place is super competitive.
    The Damned wrote: »
    You hate Tempo more than Ramp? Even with your explanations, that's still a bit surprising.

    I have a lot of hate to go around LOL.

    Seriously though my main beef with ramp has more to do with the way it's defined. I've explained this before but the TLDR is I see ramp as being basically the same as storm and burn (your deck is mostly <X> and you win when you draw and play enough <X>), and I don't see storm as true combo (true combo would be stuff like Aluren or Melira Combo).
    Post edited by ukyo_rulz on
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,391
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »

    Seriously though my main beef with ramp has more to do with the way it's defined. I've explained this before but the TLDR is I see ramp as being basically the same as storm and burn (your deck is mostly <X> and you win when you draw and play enough <X>), and I don't see storm as true combo (true combo would be stuff like Aluren or Melira Combo).

    I assume by "combo" you then mean "assemble these 2-4 cards and win the game"?
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    Naeras wrote: »
    I assume by "combo" you then mean "assemble these 2-4 cards and win the game"?

    Yes, exactly. I feel that Storm and Twin play completely different strategies, and it annoys me that they are classified under the same archetype.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 3,267
    edited July 2016
    The Damned wrote: »
    (Haha at none of the Eldritch Moon cards making a big impact yet outside of the one of the obviously powerful ones.)

    Granted, it's only been formally released for a weekend, but I'm more laughing at the fact that some people thought that Spell Queller wasn't going to be obnoxious and that new Liliana was actually bad. I can't tell whether said people have been spoiled by power creep or are just naturally spoiled (and stupid).

    Honestly I'm stil unimpressed with new Liliana. She only puts the work in a graveyard based deck, and even there, is she better than grapple with the past ? Not that grapple is necesarry a great card, mind you...



  • The DamnedThe Damned Hope: You can't believe in it Joined: Posts: 10,764 mod
    (I can understand not thinking she's "good", necessarily, but that's not exactly the same as thinking she's "bad" like some people proclaimed, a lot of them merely because she's not Liliana of the Veil 2.0, which she was thankfully never going to be given how fucking stupid Liliana of the Veil is.)

    She's alright. It defines what you mean by "put in work" though. If by "put in work" you mean "build a deck around", then, yeah, she doesn't really do that even in graveyard decks and Zombie decks--I somewhat repeat myself there though. Still, being able to protect herself and even kill with a positive ability, have some filtering if you use her second ability that works with Delirium, and have pseudo-inevitability in the majority of cases if her ultimate goes off (though that's hardly rare for an ultimate and hers is slow) isn't bad. It's just...kind of there, especially since White and to a lesser extent Green have such a stranglehold on Standard format right now.
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • BIG BAD MOGBIG BAD MOG Tough, yet Fluffy Joined: Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I don't really feel that Liliana protects herself. If her +1 gave -2/-2 instead, then I would agree, but a lot of common junk that gets put down during the turn she comes out have 2 or 3 toughness. Her minus ability also doesn't seem like a worthwhile investment to devote your t3 compared to the other stuff that is coming down t3 as well. I actually feel the opposite of @TheDamned people looking at her. I feel that people are trying to push her to be good because they want to prove that she is a balanced version of Liliana of the Veil, but it seems that WOTC was too worried about making LotV yet at the same time wanted to keep her similarly costed since she was a big headliner of Innistrad and none of her versions besides the broken one gets used.

    Gonna try drafting EMN since I missed the pre-release during my moving. I expect to go 3-1 because I ALWAYS go 3-1...even with weird janky brews.
  • The DamnedThe Damned Hope: You can't believe in it Joined: Posts: 10,764 mod
    (Well, good luck with that. Just be aware that Blue is still apparently the worst color overall and that the Limited format is apparently now slower than when it was just Shadows Over Innistrad.)

    Who said that I was arguing for her as "good"? I literally just said that I thought she was "decent", which is more "usable" than "good", at least to me.

    While I agree that part of her likely being weaker than "expected" in doubtless in part due to them intentionally be cautious about making another Liliana of the Veil, which I agree they should be, I don't agree that her +1 "should" be -2/-2 at all. That would frankly be rather absurd for a 3 CMC planeswalker. You're (vastly) underestimating that protecting herself can just mean making it so that the creature in question can attack for only 0 or, hell, even just 1 since then at best they're breaking even with her positive ability. Last I checked, save for the stupidity that is Sylvan Advocate after six lands are in play, Lambholdt Pacifist with its currently dwindling appearances now that GW Tokens has taken a hit, and the yet unplayed Lupine Prototype, pretty much all of common 2 and 3 drops in Standard format currently have 2 power, even ignoring the ones she can straight-up kill with said +1. Sure, it's not like they can't have more than one creature, but Black literally has the most creature removal spells in the game.

    Could her other abilities be better without breaking her for her cost? Most likely.

    Is she worth trying to make the central focus of a deck? Probably not.

    Is she outright actually "bad", even in the current Standard environment where both of Black's enemies reign supreme and Bant has usurped Abzan as the tri-color combination of choice? No.

    Again, I'll grant that she could definitely be better. Personally I think they have just gone ahead and made her the Zombie-equivalent of the original Nissa Revane card, which would have had a narrower focus, but would make her having the ultimate she has now make more sense. It would doubtless have given Zombies the support they arguably still need, however, or at least could have still gotten without being busted given all the undue support that Humans and pretty much only Humans got in the entire block.

    Regardless, I'm fine with her being viewed as "bad", especially since it means she doesn't become another "chase Mythic" that drives up the already expensive cost of the game like too many other cards. I was just voicing that I personally don't think she's actually bad at all; she's just underwhelming, especially given people's (ridiculously) high standards when it comes to this game.
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    Liliana's problem is that she's a grindy planeswalker in a tempo format. She would be amazing in a theoretical deck that plays lots of creatures and removal. You spend turn 1-4 trading one for one, then on turn five you get to drop Lily and play a removal spell while using her to gain card advantage.

    However, decks like the one I described above don't work very well because the premier tempo deck also happens to be packed to the gills with card advantage. You can't count on Lili activations and your drawstep to outpace Collected Companies, Ojutai's Command, Tireless Tracker and investigate effects. I noted this just last night at FNM when I played against Sultai Delirium with Bant Company post-board. My opponent actually lived the dream with turn 4 Mindbender into Lili + Removal on turn 5. But I had Ulvenwald Mysteries in play and I could just make token chump blockers while drawing cards with clues. Eventually I started casting Collected Companies, Ojutai's Commands and generally pulling ahead on cards as well as on the board. I out-grinded the GB Midrange deck with my "tempo" deck.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • The DamnedThe Damned Hope: You can't believe in it Joined: Posts: 10,764 mod
    (Agreed.)

    Yeah, Liliana's "job" will probably get easier once Collected Company and Ojutai's Command rotate, but you could also say that about a lot of cards in Standard just due to how stupid Collected Company and some of the cards it can currently are. Of course, it's dependent on upon what's in Kaladesh, but short of them printing another 3cc mana Black planeswalker (or, I guess, permanent) there that is generally better than her and clasheses with her, I can't really see her going anywhere but up in playability once those two cards rotate, even if it's only marginally.
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    The Damned wrote: »
    I can't really see her going anywhere but up in playability once those two cards rotate, even if it's only marginally.

    One other possible issue will be whether a heavy black shell (needed to support Lili's casting cost) can reliably protect her against spirit deck where every creature has flying. Then again she is also great for picking off one-toughness spirits so maybe she will be great. As you said, it all depends on Kaladesh.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,007 mod
    Drafted 4 Graft Rats and 3 of the guys that meld with him.

    Drew 14 lands in game 3 of one of round 3 and ended up 3-1.

    On the plus side we had a shitload of people. Now I just have to miminize the influence of one asshole.
    Ronin Chaos on Pertho:

    "Oh, Pertho. You complete me."
    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 3,267
    I don't really feel that Liliana protects herself. If her +1 gave -2/-2 instead, then I would agree, but a lot of common junk that gets put down during the turn she comes out have 2 or 3 toughness. Her minus ability also doesn't seem like a worthwhile investment to devote your t3 compared to the other stuff that is coming down t3 as well. I actually feel the opposite of @TheDamned people looking at her. I feel that people are trying to push her to be good because they want to prove that she is a balanced version of Liliana of the Veil, but it seems that WOTC was too worried about making LotV yet at the same time wanted to keep her similarly costed since she was a big headliner of Innistrad and none of her versions besides the broken one gets used.

    My feelings, too. The comon argument I hear for Liliana is "well, she costs 3 mana, 3 mana walkers are good", but nothing else besides mana cost. She is very unimpressive, or like the Damned said, she's just... there


  • BullDancerBullDancer Mentos, The Freshmaker Joined: Posts: 9,424
    edited July 2016
    A walker is much better than many permanents you could play on turn 3.
    Post edited by BullDancer on
    "Rock abandoned Neesa there like you were gonna abandon your son and wife and live alone with your TV"~Akuma-HAX
  • BR3N7BR3N7 Todays "fake news" is tomorrows "everyone does it" Joined: Posts: 2,024
    So disappointing went 4-1-1 today at a 55 person legacy event and got 9th with ANT. Didn't really make any mistakes which was nice but something came up and I was a odd spot but showed me how the game and especially PLAYERS/PEOPLE have evolved.

    So it was round 2 I lost game 1 being on 1 island and just needing 1 black source to win. Guy wins *he also has this smug like cocky looks and attitude like cause he doesn't know me so he is better and superior*. Oh he is playing Food Chain FYI. G2 I would go on to just draw ass ass ass and more ass and he wins like 12 turns later. But near the end I go man Ive played this food chain match up and I have rarely lost it. He then proceeds to just go off like a dick and is like just wait till after the match to complain and hes like I haven't lost to storm yet and I said well you haven't played pilot like me and you have had to get this lucky are barely winning. He proceeds to be a DICK again thinking cause luck was so high he is superior. I then kinda step up to him as he get this dick attitude as I am a decent sized Mexican and pretty much say homie your misreading all this as I am not salty I am just analyzing how bad it had to be for me. Was gonna offer him a 100$ MM to a first to 5 but he must of lost 2 straight cause I never saw him again. It just made me realize that people are just more cocky than 15-20 years ago. Like cause you no longer have to make decks from scratch and can just copy your all of a sudden your a great player. Like when someone I don't know is my opponent I just assume they are superior. I don't know this is literally the definition of these new age kids/players who need a "safe place". Kinda put a drag on my day.