Advice to all new Skullgirls (or any game for that matter) players from a professional gamer

MegamanDSMegamanDS SRK Moderator - 15+ year clubJoined: Posts: 4,425 mod
I've been debating on doing this for a while but I will give a brief statement and see how the responses are before actually writing an entire paper about it.

First off, my name is Danny aka MegamanDS. I am known for usually trolling or acting dumb but this is going to be a very serious post for the incoming gamers.

I've been playing games since I was a baby and playing professionally/competitively since 2001. I have won tournaments, been sponsored, made plenty of combo videos, posted hundreds of videos of matches and much much more for the FGC. I stopped playing competitively since 2009 and with Skullgirls being released in 2012, it brought me back to the competitive playing level.

Now, I'm not claiming to be the best like I usually do or blah blah, but I do honestly consider myself good at the game. Heck, not to sound cocky but when the game was first launching, I am usually the innovator for certain tactics, playstyles, assists and combos (like I am for all games I play). I brought my MvC2 playstyle to this game and it seems to be the way the game is moving.

So what leads me to this post is that I have been playing a lot of PC Beta now and just online in general (since this game is lag-free online yay!) and I notice that 90% (not exaggerating) of the players I play DON'T know how to play or what they are doing. Now I'm not saying they suck. There is a difference in my opinion between someone that sucks and someone that just doesn't know how to play. The advice I want to give to all you new players is two words: TRAINING MODE.

To learn how to play the game, go through the tutorial for basic fighting game fundamentals. Once you know that, go to training mode and learn moves, then learn combos, then learn basic tactics, then learn advance tactics. I am not trying to be mean, but actually trying to give serious advice. You must spends hours (and I mean HOURS) in training mode perfecting your characters before jumping online to play actual opponents. I know its going to suck, its going to be boring, its going to be tedious, but it WILL pay off.

Playing online will NOT make you better if you don't know how to play. Playing online (or other people) will make you better once you DO know how to play because then it will teach you matchups, specific scenarios, poking games, adapting to your opponent and so forth.



So please, if you are new to the game, spend about 2-3 hours a day in training mode learning all the characters until you fall in love with a couple. Then spend hours in training mode learning their moves and combos.

If this post gets good feedback or shared or anything, I will write an entire article on how to get good at fighting games. I've been in the scene long enough to know what makes you a top player. Even though I personally am not the best, its not because I can't be, its because of training mode and time restraints.
Proven:
Top 8 MvC2 @ Evo
Top 3 XMvSF @ Evo
Top 3 SkullGirls @ Evo
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Comments

  • HOTJAPGIRLHOTJAPGIRL Joined: Posts: 14
    Please make more man. I'm pretty sure there's a decently large influx of fresh new players coming to SG. I've spread the word on other sites too, that and looking the steam forums you can see that there's fresh meat coming in. I mean there's a ton of activity going on there since the Skullheart forums are down (assuming it was the biggest forum community for SG besides SRK).

    Looking for a direction to play towards was the first thing I did when I realized I was having a lot of fun playing. If you do decide to publish some stuff, advertise on the steam community forums. Most people who are new don't even know what SRK is, I sure as hell didn't until google led me here.

    One of the things I notice in nearly all the freaking competitive games is the lack of guides for fundamental stuff, stuff you need to know before moving on to the more advance stuff. In League/DotA starter builds, how to play your role properly, how not to die to really obvious stuff... In Starcraft 2, the importance of making workers and scouting, the relationship of an early-game strategy against a long-game one and how to interpret it and so on. In Quake Live, hitting your target harder and more often than it hits you, which is really the bare bottom fundamentals but noooo everyone wants to hit their air rockets and flick shot their rails all day when really pulling out your LG will kill your opponent or at least make the biggest impact on the enemy team. *sigh*

    Looking forward to more content thanks.
  • Sp00kyFoxSp00kyFox Joined: Posts: 335
    edited August 2013
    there are always interested casual players who look into a new released game. but they not gonna put work into it, they just wanna have fun and win. well in contrast to sf4 only mashing without basic and advanced knowledge isn't gonna win you one match. so I guess just wait and the frustration will do the rest to the scrubs and only those with dedication for the game will remain. posting demands here will not reach them or even change their behaviour. those who are interested will find their way to shoryuken or skullheart.
    Post edited by Sp00kyFox on
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    Sp00kyFox wrote: »
    well in contrast to sf4 only mashing without basic and advanced knowledge isn't gonna win you one match.
    ?? Ever seen a solo Bella play?
    Why.
  • Sp00kyFoxSp00kyFox Joined: Posts: 335
    have you ever seen a solo bella against peacock and assists?
    it's a slaughter.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,061
    Thanks for the advice. I was under the impression that the training mode would teach me bad habits, since I would be learning what works best against a training dummy and not against real people. I'm going to start spending more time in training mode, but 2-3 hours a day? I don't even play games that much lol. Guess that means I just need to make time, or move on to something easier.

    Right now I'm kinda starting from the beginning, since I dropped the gamepad and am now using a keyboard. It feels more responsive and natural, but combos are a little weird. I'm currently building a hitbox, so in a few weeks I should be on that.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,734 mod
    Thanks for the advice. I was under the impression that the training mode would teach me bad habits, since I would be learning what works best against a training dummy and not against real people. I'm going to start spending more time in training mode, but 2-3 hours a day? I don't even play games that much lol. Guess that means I just need to make time, or move on to something easier.

    Right now I'm kinda starting from the beginning, since I dropped the gamepad and am now using a keyboard. It feels more responsive and natural, but combos are a little weird. I'm currently building a hitbox, so in a few weeks I should be on that.
    It's the opposite really. Training mode should teach you the basics of what your character/team can put out. Once you know that, then you should move on to learning from matches so you can figure out how to apply what you've learned in training mode in a real match.
  • AZMizukiAZMizuki Joined: Posts: 11
    To be fair, I think it's a combination of training mode, and online play that makes a player. Coming from other fighting games, I already understand fundamentals, and personally, I actually have an easier time learning bnbs in the heat of a match than grinding against dummies.

    dummies can't teach you how to confirm off stray hits, y0.
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,527
    Dunno why you got people upvoting you on your original post, since it's as fucking obvious as "If you want to live, you need to drink, eat and sleep".
    Also it's pretty damn wrong.
    You don't have to be weeks in the training room in order to play online matches.

    It's also pretty damn superfluous since the scrubs you meet online don't really care enough about the game to learn it and the people that do will improve by themselves and find shit like SRK.com, VesperArcades SF tutorials or stuff like James Chens First Attack.

    Dunno how you hope to bring anything new to the table or contribute to the community in any way by posting the obvious in a couple of sentences.
    CFN: NaughtySenpai
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    edited August 2013
    Yeah, this mindset - "You must spends hours (and I mean HOURS) in training mode perfecting your characters before jumping online to play actual opponents." - is what holds a LOT of new players back. How many people do we see on Skullheart saying they are afraid to go online and get beat? How many of these players do you think will ever get any good? Spend an hour or two getting down a basic BnB if you have to, but worrying about "not being good enough" is the quickest way to languish in the beginner stage for far too long. Doesn't matter how much time you've spent in training mode, or arcade mode, when you first start playing real people, you will get beat. Just get it over with at the beginning.

    Edit: Also, thank god* this game doesn't use an online points system like SF4/SFxT. Otherwise it'd be even harder to get people to play online.

    *Mike Z?
    Post edited by Dude on
  • EffenhoogEffenhoog fish are friends Joined: Posts: 1,516
    I definitely encourage new players in any game to at least learn the character's moves in training mode and try to get to the point where if you press a button you know what your character will do.

    naturally there are more things you can learn than that but for a really new player (possibly new to the genre in general) spending hours in training mode won't necessarily accomplish anything because they aren't even sure what they should be learning in the first place
    They call me Gamma Ray because I'm Forward Back Forward Back Down-Back Down Down-Forward Forward Hard Slash
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    edited August 2013
    Vulpes wrote: »
    Sp00kyFox wrote: »
    well in contrast to sf4 only mashing without basic and advanced knowledge isn't gonna win you one match.
    ?? Ever seen a solo Bella play?

    What you saying kid?

    Also, shoutouts to training mode monsters.
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • chessmasterchessmaster Joined: Posts: 15
    Most people even if they have the dedication, don't have the time to spend two or three hours a day in practice mode alone. So this will fall on deaf ears unforutunatey. I suck at fighting games but its not because I lack the dedication but lack the time.
  • fizzywoemacfizzywoemac Team Pwendines Joined: Posts: 403
    Good advice, excellent in fact. This being said idk how effective telling people they need to use training mode is, its one thing to hear it and a completely different one to actually go do it. Its more of a self motivating thing. I spend hours in training mode more because i enjoy a feeling of progression and its meditative qualities rather than because i desperately want to get better and i hear people telling me to.

    As far as writing this whole guide goes just go for it dude, in all honesty i would love to hear what you have to say past this, you seem like a chill dude. Im 100% certain you've got something to say with more fucking Yomi than this bro
    Counterpicking Sagat with Honda since forever
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    Everyone learns differently.

    MMDS advice might work for some, but not all.
    You did not go back in time, this is how the forums look.
    "You are all just as bad as the people you hate. You're only interested in characters based on tears." - Since1717
    NO STREAM = DEAD GAME
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,734 mod
    I don't get where all these newer folk get off from talking down to Dan of all people. If there is anyone in the Skullgirls community that you should listen it's him.

    You guys don't understand just how important spending time in training mode is. I've seen an EVO champion spend what seemed like hours on training mode before an event just repeatedly practicing basic things in (safe falls, plink dashes, wave dashes) just to be sure that his execution on them is on point. I have seen top players, spend time in training mode simply just doing basic BnBs over and over again just to make sure that their muscle memory was fine. That's not to say that experience from playing decent players won't help, but in a game like this were a good part of it involves being able to convert stray hits into damage, then having your execution be on point is something that gives you an advantage over the other guy.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    d3v wrote: »
    I don't get where all these newer folk get off from talking down to Dan of all people. If there is anyone in the Skullgirls community that you should listen it's him.

    You guys don't understand just how important spending time in training mode is. I've seen an EVO champion spend what seemed like hours on training mode before an event just repeatedly practicing basic things in (safe falls, plink dashes, wave dashes) just to be sure that his execution on them is on point. I have seen top players, spend time in training mode simply just doing basic BnBs over and over again just to make sure that their muscle memory was fine. That's not to say that experience from playing decent players won't help, but in a game like this were a good part of it involves being able to convert stray hits into damage, then having your execution be on point is something that gives you an advantage over the other guy.

    And for a new player who doesn't even know what that half that shit is? To get started on these games it is more important to actually play. Practicing stuff outside of basic execution and BnBs is not worth it for new players.

    And the idea that you have to spend hours upon hours in practice before going online further feeds the mindset of folks that always refuse to go online because they're "not good enough yet" and afraid of getting bodied. This retards the growth of the newbie portion of the SG player-base (which is expansive).

    Training is important, but the emphasis placed in the OP isn't really that helpful.
  • Shooting Star RockmanShooting Star Rockman Jaded Joined: Posts: 1,246
    I learned it the hard way. I tried going online with only special move knowledge and I got bodied hard.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,734 mod
    Dude wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    I don't get where all these newer folk get off from talking down to Dan of all people. If there is anyone in the Skullgirls community that you should listen it's him.

    You guys don't understand just how important spending time in training mode is. I've seen an EVO champion spend what seemed like hours on training mode before an event just repeatedly practicing basic things in (safe falls, plink dashes, wave dashes) just to be sure that his execution on them is on point. I have seen top players, spend time in training mode simply just doing basic BnBs over and over again just to make sure that their muscle memory was fine. That's not to say that experience from playing decent players won't help, but in a game like this were a good part of it involves being able to convert stray hits into damage, then having your execution be on point is something that gives you an advantage over the other guy.

    And for a new player who doesn't even know what that half that shit is? To get started on these games it is more important to actually play. Practicing stuff outside of basic execution and BnBs is not worth it for new players.

    And the idea that you have to spend hours upon hours in practice before going online further feeds the mindset of folks that always refuse to go online because they're "not good enough yet" and afraid of getting bodied. This retards the growth of the newbie portion of the SG player-base (which is expansive).

    Training is important, but the emphasis placed in the OP isn't really that helpful.

    The problem here is that YOU're putting everything in black and white. Nobody here is saying that you shouldn't go online. All Dan is saying is that you need to be prepared before you go into a match. This way at least you have a chance instead of instantly getting bodied by someone who actually spent their 9-5 learning stuff.
  • fizzywoemacfizzywoemac Team Pwendines Joined: Posts: 403
    edited August 2013

    The problem here is that YOU're putting everything in black and white. Nobody here is saying that you shouldn't go online. All Dan is saying is that you need to be prepared before you go into a match. This way at least you have a chance instead of instantly getting bodied by someone who actually spent their 9-5 learning stuff.

    I really respect you and the OPs opinion and i think (and any sane fg player would agree) that training mode is really important but i think it may be overstated here. Spend 2-3 hours a day learning stuff in training mode? Im sorry but that is absolute overkill for a player just starting out, the only thing spending that much time in training mode will do to a newbie is make them hate the game. When i picked up cervantes in scv i had to learn the triple igdr combo and consistently doing 15mins of training everytime before i played was more than enough. Any more and i would of driven off a cliff.

    Yes, landing bnbs and having good execution is absolutely essential to becoming good at this game, or any other fighting game, but I firmly believe that there are many nuanced skills that take a lot of match play to learn. I feel like this intense of an emphasis on training mode is misleading. Training mode is a good thing, but you dont just go into training mode for X amount of hours and can play the game. The transition from doing things successfully in training mode to doing them in game is just as hard as learning all the skill initially in the first place.

    The thing that is lacking here is a more firm emphasis on consistency. If you do 20minutes a day of training mode then matches you will be fine, just as long as you strictly adhere to ALWAYS going to training mode before you play. I feel like the whole HOURS stressed in this entry is a bit on the intimidating side. This is a good start and i like the idea more well thought out guides written by individuals but the emphasis is a little to extreme in this case imo.
    Counterpicking Sagat with Honda since forever
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Sometimes It Snows In April... Joined: Posts: 3,424
    edited August 2013
    I think what @MegamanDS is saying is that IF YOU WANT TO GET TO A PROFESSIONAL LEVEL at the game, then you NEED to put in the time. 2 hours in training mode is a drop in the bucket in the general scheme of things, especially if you're looking to go to major tourneys and compete.

    I'm a professional musician and one of the things I love about fighting games is that learning an FG is a lot like learning an instrument. If you really want to get to the big show and play with the big boys, you HAVE to put in the time, learn the basics, and get the execution down to a point where you do it as naturally as you breathe. I'm talking hours and hours a day. I used to practice 6-8 hours a day when I was in school, and that didn't count the playing I did beyond that. Sometimes I had a guitar in my hand in excess of 10-12 hours a day.

    if you want to just play around online and mess around with the game, then it's okay to disregard what he's saying, but if you're really looking to get not just good, but GREAT at the game, then I'd say a regimen of 2-3 hours of training mode, 2-3 hours of online, and another 2-3 hours of offline when you can get it in is the way to do it. God knows if I had the time, I'd be playing Guilty Gear, KoFXIII, or Third Strike that often. I'm sure few people have the time to be able to dedicate to a regimen like that, but if you really want to be great, you've gotta do the work.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • petran79petran79 Here comes an old challenger Joined: Posts: 1,913
    edited August 2013
    I really respect you and the OPs opinion and i think (and any sane fg player would agree) that training mode is really important but i think it may be overstated here. Spend 2-3 hours a day learning stuff in training mode? Im sorry but that is absolute overkill for a player just starting out, the only thing spending that much time in training mode will do to a newbie is make them hate the game. When i picked up cervantes in scv i had to learn the triple igdr combo and consistently doing 15mins of training everytime before i played was more than enough. Any more and i would of driven off a cliff.

    For some new players 2-3 hours in training mode, except the frustration, may cause them also thumb or wrist strain. FG are demanding.

    But newbies can learn easy 10-15 hit combos, call an assist super, then do another super. this causes some good damage and requires less training. If you are playing solo though, then it would be better to learn some better combos.

    I accomplished the tutorials, liked the game, only problem is those BnB combos. if on training mode 90 % of time is spent on BnB and the remaining 10 % on the rest, I prefer to focus on the 10 %

    Hence I avoid games like Blazblue, Guilty Gear and MvC.

    I can play at semi-beginner, low-intermediate skill just fine and that is enough.
    too slow!
  • FoxstepCEOFoxstepCEO PSN - JohnnyMastah Joined: Posts: 788
    Write the article regardless. It doesn't matter how many people realize how good it is. If it's good, write it. Just make sure that you don't preach to the choir. If there was a way to make an article on "How to Play Fighting Games" to stuff like Game Informer, IGN, Gamespot or wherever all the casual gamers look at reviews and articles or something. Last time I saw a Game Informer, I saw a 10-page dick-suck fest on the development process on an upcoming 'hyped' game that ended up being -meh- at best. Imagine if that space could be used just ONE time to get people to understand on how fighting games work and how they can take it past button mashing, and find out that it can be a rewarding venture by seeing actual results through time and investment.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    I can understand where OP is coming from, but casuals see training mode as "tutorial stage" for fighting games. They're not gonna spend 2-3 hours a day in training mode any more than I'm going to replay the first stage of God of War every day.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Sometimes It Snows In April... Joined: Posts: 3,424
    I got to say the top level folks who are all about hitting training more first and know how to even use training mode to get the most from it all probably have been around for years, and years, and years and instantly have better grips on the core mechanics of the games they're playing than the average Joe.

    I have awful, awful execution. But in a lot of games I'm about to out think and exploit lack of knowledge. Tons of times I've been hated on for dropping combos, or only doing the same shit, but staying on the machine, or in the winning seat in the online lobby. Guys get mad when they could theoretically execute the BnB's, but keep losing the footsie game, getting zoned out, thrown out of everything repeatedly, or painfully mixed up on wake up. Though I'll admit more new games seem to be getting away from this and landing the max damage combos is going to see you through if you opponent only knows general fighting game theory or a single cheap tactic.

    Still I think when you spend hours and hours in training mode and then you still get torn up and not given the proper chance to play by some bastard who knows the dumb stuff a little better than you, you're going to get discouraged. And if you don't have match up experience first, and a sense of what works in the game you probably don't know what you want to be practicing anyhow. There are very few people who truly innovate in these games, that's not for most who just want to be online warriors.

    This is a really good post.

    I think before you start putting in insane amounts of time, you:

    1.Have to figure out what style of play suits you the best (zoning, footsies, rushdown, combofiend, etc)

    2.Have to figure out what character in the game best represents that style.

    Only after you really figure out what you're really about in the game will spending that time make a difference. And there are definitely certain things you can't learn as well in Training mode (matchups) as you can by playing people.

    It's definitely a good idea to mix it up between training mode and playing folks, if not only for your sanity, but also because there are things to be learned in both modes. But doing some time in Training mode can help you not get blown up as easily in Vs. mode.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,715
    edited August 2013
    d3v wrote: »


    The problem here is that YOU're putting everything in black and white. Nobody here is saying that you shouldn't go online. All Dan is saying is that you need to be prepared before you go into a match. This way at least you have a chance instead of instantly getting bodied by someone who actually spent their 9-5 learning stuff.

    Actually he did say that playing online wouldnt help them (newbies) at all.
    And that is a mistake. He says that online wont help till they know how to play the game. But training mode wont help them learn the game either.


    Its obvious what is going on here:

    Bad implementation of the english language.

    Danny is saying that newbs need to learn the special moves and a combo or 2 before going online... And whether that is right or wrong, the wording used is ambiguous as he says "online wont help till you know how to play the game" so we can only assume that to him, knowing the game is knowing your specials, normals, and a super simple bnb.

    But... You'll still get bodied hardcore even with that knowledge.

    Which is why people are rightfully saying that this advice is dubious.

    The "best" way to get better at any modern fighting game is to tackle the problem of getting better from as many angles as possible:

    Training mode
    Online play
    Arcade mode play for combo and hitconfirm practice against a moving opponent that isnt human
    Frame data
    Forum setups from others that actually work people
    Learn your own home brewed setups

    Play, play,play,play,play and play some more.

    There is no "best" way or right way to go about getting better in this day and age. Some people will take to training mode better than others whereas some will be at home learning bnbs and stuff in actual matches.

    So yes, the advice is dubious because it takes away other viable options to learn and throws out a rigid system for newbies to adhere to... Which could be HIGHLY detrimental to said newbie especially if they arent the type to love the training mode grind.

    I mean, newbs dont even know WHAT they should be practicing anyways so training mode isnt going to be very useful to them at first either.

    They need to learn in an all around way or in one way that they acclimate well to. Which could be anything.
    Post edited by Dime on
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Buster CannonBuster Cannon Cool head, heated heart Joined: Posts: 3,446
    Throwing this in here as well: I really reccomend having a sparring partner when learning a FG. You can learn about a game in an hour of casual play than you would messing around in training mode for 3 hours. I'm not diminishing the value of training mode at all, but there's certain elements of a real match that training mode just won't teach you. Once you see what your character is capable of using only simple bnbs you start to get a feel for what setups/combos you can practice later on in your spare time.
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  • MissionSchabernackMissionSchabernack Joined: Posts: 488
    It's a roboter combo game. If you cant do 60 sec combos you are done. You are forced to learn this shit in the training mode first. In the good games like SF2 you can just pick it up and play online.
  • OrehRatiugOrehRatiug Joined: Posts: 157
    edited August 2013
    It's a roboter combo game. If you cant do 60 sec combos you are done. You are forced to learn this shit in the training mode first. In the good games like SF2 you can just pick it up and play online.
    I barely know a good 30% combo (2v2 so it isn't really even 30%) off of a clean jump in and do quite well, if you're ignorant to both how the game is changing and how it is in its current form you shouldn't speak.
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    I don't disagree with the "advice" in the OP, but I don't think it's very substantive. You don't mention anything about how a new player should spend their time in training mode, you just say "perfect your character" and "spend 2-3 hours a day learning all the characters". This doesn't really say anything. Anybody with as much experience as you have should know, how you spend your time is more important than how much time you spend.

    What would have been more helpful is to post some links to many of the helpful resources which already exist on this subject, or post your own routine for learning a new game, or some kind of training schedule that you use to keep your skills sharp. Even though this was intended to be a brief, "testing the waters" type of post, I think you could have put more effort into it. You literally spend more time introducing yourself and bragging about your achievements than giving any meaningful advice.
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  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,527
    edited August 2013
    It's a roboter combo game. If you cant do 60 sec combos you are done. You are forced to learn this shit in the training mode first. In the good games like SF2 you can just pick it up and play online.

    I feel this is just wrong.

    Mind you I'm 32 years old and my first fighting game ever was International Karate for the C64 followed by Street Fighter 2: World Warrior on the SNES a couple of years later.
    The combo system is in fighting games since SF2 even if it was originally a bug, it added a further layer of depth to the game.

    While you might argue that it distracts from the core game play, you can't deny that it's incredibly amazing to watch people pull that crazy shit off regularly and it's very rewarding to perform it yourself.
    It doesn't shift away the focus of fighting games away from spacing, reading and mixing your own play up, it just adds another game inside the game that makes it harder to perform the game mechanically.
    Knowing how hard it is to pull off all this shit makes it so much fun for me to watch people like Daigo, Justin etc. go at it and gives me a great sense of accomplishment and pride when I learn to pull hard combos off, myself.

    I'm probably in the minority here when I say that I feel that SF4 is one of the best fighting game made until this day, but that's how I honestly feel. The depth is amazing and the balance between characters is pretty damn good considering how many of them are in the game (Haven't played a fighting game since Tekken 3 so take it with a grain of salt).

    I'll definitely give Skullgirls a shot as well since the game seems to be beautifully designed, offers great depth and has very diverse characters.
    CFN: NaughtySenpai
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    you can't deny that it's incredibly amazing to watch people pull that crazy shit off regularly and it's very rewarding to perform it yourself.

    It's not amazing when it's done regularly. It's only amazing when it's rare. Doom swag combos were hype last year when only Marlinpie could do them. Now they're just boring. Even the Doom-finite is approaching yawn-worthy status. I remember when CVS2 roll-cancels were "too hard to do in real matches". Now everybody does them, and it's not impressive at all. Improving execution is not so much "difficult" as it is "tedious". Just do it over and over until you get good at doing it over and over.

    I also don't agree that it doesn't shift away the focus of fighting games away from spacing, reading and mixing your own play up. This thread's advice makes it clear that the execution requirements of the game present a roadblock to learning anything else. You need to learn how to "control your character" before you can begin to learn how to "play the game". There's always a cost. Maybe the cost is worth paying, but we can't ignore it's there.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • blufangblufang Devour! Joined: Posts: 4,487
    U can give Skullgirls a shot now, if you pre order you get to play the beta. I only realized this today, and bought it. Did some tutorials and hopped online.




  • HOTJAPGIRLHOTJAPGIRL Joined: Posts: 14
    edited August 2013
    Jeez. This thread sure blew up quick.

    Here is my input on it. This topic seems all the more relevant to me after playing a bunch of lobby games versus people my own level.

    There's just got to be a balance between Training mode and Online play. There are specific things that you improve on well in Training mode and specific things you can only improve versus a human opponent. Today I played a Peacock/Parasoul for just about a dozen games. I only won 2 of them initially, through adaptation and just me dropping the ball I lost the rest of my games. Each game was relatively close, only the last one was one sided when I realized my tilt was starting to sink in. Basically what happened was I just kept dropping my combo over and over. I was slowly adapting to my opponents playstyle, switching it up with mix-ups, throws, and blocking more but I just couldn't get a good solid combo on the guy. Like literally I could have won most of those games if I didn't drop my combo midway through.

    So here comes the question. Would I benefit from completely mastering my bnb in training mode where I can solely focus on it like a robot or should I grind out games under pressure and learn to do it as I play? On one hand I'll learn how to bang out a combo without effort, on the other I'll learn to do it while I learn to read and adapt to my opponent.

    From my experience playing other games (SC2, DotA2) just hammering out your mechanics will help, no matter what. Spending a few hours with a computer is so minuscule per the 100 - 300 games I would play with real people but it was so much more helpful in doing so. Overall I think we agree that the one thing we want to avoid most is spending hours upon hours playing a game unproductively. You can't really spend Training mode time needlessly unless you're doing something very dumb and repetitively to the point of it being pointless. Now compare this to someone who only plays online. No one's perfect. We'll get tilted after some awful losses and then begin to play like an idiot because your hormones are clouding your mind. If you don't take a breather then that's just time wasted, you don't get better when you're in blind anger. This breather could be just watching some youtube vids, or Training mode.

    Now compare yourself to where you are now and where you were when you first started. You spent 50 hours playing online to get where you are, this is with little to no training mode. Do you think you can get the same level in less time with 10 hours invested in training mode? Let's say with 10 hours in Training you reached your level in 35 hours instead. 10 + 35 = 45, which saves 5 hours of your time. This will continue to work at a certain rate depending on how talented you are. In the long run after 1000 hours spent playing this game, maybe you could have shaved off 100 hours, or even more. Now that would be quite significant.

    This is the philosophy I go by when I start new games to play semi-competitively. Time is very valuable to everyone and it will continue to get more valuable as we get older. When I see someone who has played the same amount of time in a game as I have, but is significantly better, I ask why? If I can answer that question then I'll act on it for myself, that way when I see someone else who has played the same amount of time as I have play significantly worse I can be glad that I saved time.
    Post edited by HOTJAPGIRL on
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    Niggas always talking about learning combos and hit confirms under pressure and junk. Turn on random guard in practice mode and there ya go.

    I don't know, but for me I never had an issue bringing a combo I was grinding out in training mode into versus. It's anecdotal and I presume every other person functions differently and has different experiences; but for me, when I have a combo down in training mode it pretty much transitions seamlessly into versus.

    Then during versus, I just have to open up people or play a strong neutral game where I sacrifice opportunities to "get a chance to combo" in order to hold positions to force people to go into the areas and circumstances that give me free hits such as anti-airs or make them do something dumb that gives me free combos.

    In regards to time spent in versus mode vs. time spent in training mode is irrelevant to getting better. Fighting games aren't a Korean MMORPG grind where you put in "time" and get a "quantitative result."

    The question shouldn't be about "how much time should be spent" in either modes, but rather "how do I use the time spent" in either modes. Going back to my previous post, what is the point of training mode if the player doesn't know what, how, or why he or she should be practicing a combo, learning a set up, perfecting movement, shadow boxing pressure/retreat, knowing the optimal ranges of each normal attack, and etc.? The same goes for versus mode: what is the point of playing versus mode if the player doesn't know what to look out for to improve, what bad habits to iron out, what decisional fallacies and mistakes to avoid, what tendencies and patterns to look out for from others, what to experiment with what new tools or tactics against certain opponents, how to take in and take away from a recent game to apply it in the next game, and etc.?

    If the player doesn't know how to use either training mode or versus mode properly to "learn" the game, it doesn't matter how one "quantitatively calculates" one's time is spent to "optimize growth and improvement." This concept simply doesn't exist. Any little bit of training mode or versus mode is important regardless of "quantity" but what exactly is learned and gained from those experiences regardless of duration.

    So rather than trying to tell people to use one mode over the other and for a concentrated period of time within a schedule, I would rather tell people how to properly use their resources and let the person decide what is the appropriate use of one's own time and let the person choose how to improve.

    Not to toot my own horn, although that sounds quite lascivious, but if a person were to take me and another person that is completely new to fighting games and were to give each of us a completely new fighting game for us to play and play against each other in, I would most probably find out more about the game in 30 minutes of training mode and 30 minutes of versus play playing other people more than the other person that never played fighting games before would find in 2 hours of training mode and 2 hours of versus mode per day for a week. This is because I would simply know what to look for, what is relevant, how to apply it in real matches, and how to take away what I learn in real matches to apply it to future matches. Being able to do all of that, however, is not exclusive to only me though and anyone else can build the knowledge base to get to that level of understanding to be able to learn games just as fast or even better than I do; and, I know for sure there are plenty of people that know better than me, learn better than me, and perform better than me as a fighting game player.

    So although I didn't like using myself as an example, I would just like to once again reiterate that it's not about how one allocates time to a particular type of mode of training, but how one uses that period of time playing to learn and refine. As long as the player knows what to do with that time, it doesn't matter how much one spends that time in whatever mode as long as it's spent wisely.
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