The Street Fighter Plot Canon Guide development thread

MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
edited August 2013 in Fan Fiction Library
Notice: Since Vasili has decided that he does not want anyone continuing off his work, development is on hold until he gets back to us with a copy of the guide pre-dating his taking over.

With Vasili retiring as caretaker of the guide, we will be moving forward as a community to update the guide in a collaborative fashion, instead of electing someone new to take over. Hopefully, cooperation by the community as a whole will result in a clean, well-checked, and unbiased guide. The guide development is currently being hosted in a repository at BitBucket

https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide

Development is simple, anybody is free to create an account at BitBucket and make edits to the guide, however they will not immediately go live. Instead, these edits will then be visible at

https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide/pull-requests

where the community will review them. If they are approved, they will be merged into the guide. The current state of the guide can be downloaded from

https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide/downloads
(single text file, will be periodically manually updated)
https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide/get/master.zip
(zip file containing the parts, automatically fully up to date at all times)
https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide/src
(online viewing, also fully up to date at all times)

When adding a change, post a link to it in this thread. People will be able to view what was changed, discuss it, and use the forums "Agree/Disagree" function to vote yes or no. These votes can be changed later as the change is updated to reflect people's comments. After a couple days, if a change has at least 1 Agree and no Disagrees, it will be added to the guide (reviewers should use some discretion, if the change is large or controversial, give it more time, if it is something simple like spelling corrections, push it through quickly). If anyone disagrees, that disagreement should be discussed fully before deciding whether to move forward with the change.

Instructions for adding a change follow:

SETUP

- Make an account on bitbucket.org and log in.
- Go to the page for this repository

https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide/

- Click the 'Fork' tab on top, then click "Fork repository" on the bottom
of the next page. This creates a copy on your account you can edit freely.

Every once in awhile, if somebody else makes changes to the guide, you
will see that your fork is behind in the upper right corner. Click "Sync now"
to get their changes into your copy. You will not be able to get your change
approved unless it is up to date with other people's changes.


MAKING CHANGES

- Go the page for your own copy of the guide
- Click 'Source' on top
- Click any file(s) you wish to edit
- Click 'Edit' in the upper right corner
- Make your changes, then click 'Commit' in the lower right corner
- When your changes are ready click 'Pull Request' in the upper right corner
- Choose a meaningful title to tell people what you are changing
- Click 'Create pull request' on the bottom

Your changes are now up for review. If they are accepted, all files you changed
on your copy will be similarly changed on the main copy of the guide.

To expedite your review, please post a link to it here so we can look it over.
Post edited by MuKen on
«13

Comments

  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    Change up for review, updating the parts of the guide pertaining to its current stewardship.

    https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide/pull-request/7/updated-the-current-stewardship-of-the/diff

    Please take a look and let me know if I'm forgetting anything.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    MuKen wrote: »
    With Vasili retiring as caretaker of the guide, we will be moving forward as a community to update the guide in a collaborative fashion, instead of electing someone new to take over.

    If you wish to continue with a "canon" guide of sorts, you will either use Tiamat's last copyrighted version if he allows you to do so (and I can gladly provide you with the copy he gave me if he no longer is able for any reason), or you will start over from scratch as I and the guide itself has urged others in the past. You are not allowed to modify version 5.ae or any versions that I released copyrighted to my name behind my back, so go ahead and get rid of the current projects you have immediately. I have notified bitbucket of the recent events as well, so I ask for cooperation and patience in any attempts to "mend the pieces."

    This is the only warning I will provide.

  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 994
    edited August 2013
    I had wondered about that. It's nice to see you back (not sure if you'll stay), although you could have better said that a couple days ago. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want people to touch "your" guide, anyways. Tiamat allowed you to touch "his" guide.

    I personally stand with my comment that you don't really need to stop being the manager of the guide if there is a change in direction. I've also commented that the blunt of the issues that the guide had could be fixed just by adding aclaratory notes and admitting what's explicitly official and what's speculation.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    edited August 2013
    Oh thank god! I was worried I was going to have to broach the subject that it was far more work to eliminate all the overwhelming inaccuracies put in by Vasili than to just start from scratch or an older version.

    I will however point out that I don't think anyone cares about your "warnings", Vas. The FBI isn't going to swoop in and I think we're all more than happy to jettison the stuff we're going to have to jettison anyway since we're interested in accuracy in the guide. Also..."behind your back". Yeah we were being real stealthy considering we were discussing it in the main thread and on the thread on Unity. How super top secret of us.

    I do like your indication that we're working on a canon guide "of sorts" though. Cute dig. And no, it is not a canon guide "of sorts"...it's one where we're trying to work together to get answers and facts and represent them for others. A canon guide "of sorts" would be one that purposefully misrepresents the original Japanese material to further an agenda separate from the goal of representing canon. In the age of the internet, however, such a canon guide "of sorts" would eventually get discovered and there would probably be really negative fall-out.

    You ask for cooperation and patience...we ask for a bit of respect and for you to realize you aren't in charge around here. That's the joy of how we're working now. No one person is in charge.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,997 mod
    Vasili10, I love you like a brother but I disagree with your decision of taking down the guide when you were not the only one who has worked on it over the years. You could've left it, gave up being the author or reverted back to Tiamat's old guide by yourself.

    Pretty ironic that you wanted Saiki to post again on Warrior's Fate for the anniversary, and thanks to your actions now he has. Not the best set of circumstances obviously.

    All that aside I'm still willing to work with you on the CFE faq if you want. Up to you.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    Of course, we will gladly leave out all of your work. As I said pages ago in the other thread that is your right. If you have Tiamat's last version please share it, as should have been done in the first place. Tiamat's guide would have stayed up this whole time if you hadn't taken over; it was taken down to make way for yours.

    Part of what was entrusted to you was the responsibility of keeping that work available to all, on top of whatever additions you made. To then remove your guide forever after getting everyone else to move on to yours from his would be a great disservice to the community. In effect, you'd go down in history as the man who single-handedly destroyed the guide.

    In any case, the repository is taken down for the time being, we await Tiamat's version before we continue.
    Post edited by MuKen on
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    Seeing as it's entirely possible Vasili isn't coming back again, does anybody have any suggestions on the best way to contact him about getting Tiamat's version?
    Post edited by MuKen on
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,997 mod
    Tiamat has to give his approval before vasili10 will release it to you, vas says this much in his post. I've tried to contact Tiamat but he's never been one to respond immediately.
  • ToreyBeansToreyBeans I'mma make u buy me lunch later! Joined: Posts: 704
    Perhaps starting from scratch might be plausible?
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Starting from scratch would actually be the wisest of the two options, and either way links like these cannot remain alive: https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/sfplot-change ; https://bitbucket.org/YagamiFire/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    Sano wrote: »
    Tiamat has to give his approval before vasili10 will release it to you, vas says this much in his post. I've tried to contact Tiamat but he's never been one to respond immediately.

    Thanks, I misread his post the first time.
    vasili10 wrote: »
    Starting from scratch would actually be the wisest of the two options, and either way links like these cannot remain alive: https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/sfplot-change ; https://bitbucket.org/YagamiFire/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide

    Removed mine.

    Vasili, you have the power to release either or both versions for the community to use, as granted to you by Tiamat. And I think we both know if you are not continuing the guide, that is what he would want. So, if you truly want to make amends to the community like you said in the other thread, releasing Tiamat's version would be the best way to do so.
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 994
    edited August 2013
    I've got the Plot Guide 4.2 by Tiamat in perfectly readable, not-too-broken txt format (the only problem is that it has artificial line jumps to make the column of text, like all txt files, you know).

    I don't know which was the last one by Tiamat. The 4.6 is signed by Vasili, and it seems 4.5 was Vasili's as well.

    PS: If you are interested, I also have 4.0, which has almost no references to Vasili's input.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    edited August 2013
    vasili10 wrote: »
    Starting from scratch would actually be the wisest of the two options, and either way links like these cannot remain alive: https://bitbucket.org/MuKen/sfplot-change ; https://bitbucket.org/YagamiFire/the-street-fighter-plot-canon-guide

    Actually, yes they can. The plot guide was made publicly available in that format for years. Additionally, under terms of fair use, others are allowed to use it for scholarly pursuits since the purpose of it is nonprofit and educational. Additionally, the continued hosting of it in no way impacts your ability to profit from the content of the plot guide because it is impossible for you to do so since the plot guide is otherwise made of material copyright by Capcom.

    So...yeah.

    That little lesson on copyright law aside, I find it hilarious you continue to pitch a fit, Vasili. Hilarious and sad. This really goes to show your character. You're not interested in the plot guide continuing, nor are you interested in other people having access to information regarding Street Fighter and it's canon. Apparently it really was always all about you and the attention you derived from being the plot guide's caretaker. I'd say I'm surprised, but I'm really not. I know other people had a good relationship with you before and this probably sucks for them now, but all I can do is shake my head and roll my eyes over this behavior.

    Clearly you'd rather see the plot guide and the information within die out rather than not have absolute control over it. Typical dictator behavior. "If I can't have it, no one can" right? You've been repeatedly invited to continue to take part in the plot guide so that we can all work together, but obviously that's not good enough. And I know I'm probably going to catch flak for this post but I don't care...I spent nearly three years getting dumped on for trying to help the plot guide and contribute to it and add to it only to be repeatedly shot down by you and people that (mistakenly) trusted you. And you know what? That sucked. Still, I kept at it because I genuinely wanted to research Street Fighter and help...to discuss it and discover. Now this is how you act? Unbelievable.

    You're defining your legacy in regard to the plot guide you know.

    Vasili, the guy that misrepresented stuff and got caught lying, pitched a fit and then tried his hardest to kill the plot guide rather than see it not contain his falsehoods.

    Your alternative? Man up. Show you actually love Street Fighter and that the plot guide can be about more than you. Stop stamping your foot like a child and either bow out or accept the invitation to work with others. Anything else (or at least what you've already been doing) is not only counter-productive, it's pathetic.

    And my apologies to those that I know will (probably rightfully) give me hell for this post but I think I've earned an ounce of righteous indignation over the course of the last few years in regards to all this stuff. I know that might not justify it, but it's where I'm coming from right, wrong or indifferent. It's on my chest and I gotta get it off.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    MuKen wrote: »
    Removed mine.

    Thank you. Next clearance is with Tiamat.

  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    vasili10 wrote: »
    Next clearance is with Tiamat.

    Seriously Vasili? You know that the chances we're able to contact him are slim. Are you really trying to act like Tiamat would have wanted his guide to disappear into obscurity, when the community is perfectly willing to continue carrying his torch forward? If that's the way Tiamat thinks, he wouldn't have handed it to you in the first place.

    Between this, and the fact that you nuked his guide off of gamefaqs instead of just reverting to his last version, makes it hard for me not to think Yagami is right, and you want this guide to die.


    Anyway, I guess we will have to write a new guide. I'll put up an outline on repository later this weekend. For use as a reference, many versions of the old guide are archived:

    http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://fightingstreet.com/folders/variousinfofolder/variousinfopages/streetfighterplotguide.txt

    If you want to take down your copies Vas, you can talk to archive.org. Note that you are not legally allowed to request that the versions that are still copyrighted to Tiamat be taken down. Only he or his legal representative (meaning his appointed lawyer) may do that. So if you do issue a takedown to archive.org for your versions, be sure to specify that you are only talking about the later ones. If we see his versions suddenly disappear after all these years, we will all know you lied to them.
  • bakfromonbakfromon True Void Joined: Posts: 1,917
    edited August 2013
    Don't know if this would still be relevant since the decisions been made to start from scratch but I have managed to find Tiamat's guide ver. 4.4 (last version before Vasili's I presume) still up for public view

    streetfightercorporation.com/street_fighter_plot.txt
    The man I face...my closest friend, my brother in arms, and my greatest rival...how has it come to this?
    Japanese language is a 10-0 matchup unless you have that bakfromon Discord tech

    New Street Fighter Plot Guide in the works!!! Currently featuring both Japanese and English transcripts for all the profiles of your favorite World Warriors.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    If I don't hear back from Tiamat by the 14th, I will assume he is unable to provide himself but willing to nonetheless, and I will see that you'll get access to the latest copy he granted to me for everyone's use thereafter, which has never been seen online ever.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    Thank you Vasili, that would be much appreciated. And thanks also bakfromon and mikros, every link to any version is good to know.
  • bakfromonbakfromon True Void Joined: Posts: 1,917
    edited August 2013
    Your welcome MuKen, and Vas, will every online copy of the plot guide 5.ae suffer the same fate as the one on gamefaqs which seemed to had been hastily erased? If you truly wish to completely delete your works from the internet you might want to check here as well. fightingstreet.com/folders/variousinfofolder/variousinfopages/streetfighterplotguide.txt
    The man I face...my closest friend, my brother in arms, and my greatest rival...how has it come to this?
    Japanese language is a 10-0 matchup unless you have that bakfromon Discord tech

    New Street Fighter Plot Guide in the works!!! Currently featuring both Japanese and English transcripts for all the profiles of your favorite World Warriors.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    So I guess we have a bit of a decision to make. Vasili will release Tiamat's final version as a base to work on in a few weeks time if Tiamat doesn't object (which seems pretty unlikely). This begs the question how we should proceed from here.

    Should we start writing from scratch, and merge whatever we write into that version later? Or start with Tiamat's version 4.4 now, and merge to his updated version later? Or just put a hold on all changes until we have everything?

    What do you guys think?
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    I do not mind either.

    I am willing to start from scratch.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 994
    edited August 2013
    I suggest waiting for Tiamat's answer (and Saiki's full reply) and then use 4.4x or 4.4 if he says yes or does not reply.

    It would save lots of time, and I think that once he carefully reads the past events he will/would allow a new version of the guide in some way (maybe choosing a head for the project even if it's a joint effort? whatever). He's a nice and open guy who loves the Street Fighter story and its community.

    Also there's this quote which is quite insightful:

    "The SF story is too convuluted and on crack for just one person to handle ^_~ "
    Tiamat 11/12/2001
    Post edited by mikros on
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    In the mean time, I'm scouring the main thread for references, sources and challenges to stuff in the plot guide that Vas shot down to see if there is more stuff we should be considering for the guide. I figure it'd be best if we try to take into account claims or challenges other folks who might not still be around might have made against content in the guide. That way we can consider more than just what we all think.

    So far I haven't found anything outside what we've listed really...though it is an infuriating process in light of recent events.

    Though it's also good for laughs occasionally...found this gem...

    Vas - "Gouki I can see as culturally based on the ashura, but CJ says that visually he's based on the deva"

    Me - "Ashura are one of the types of Deva's"

    That always makes me giggle. I'll continue my work. Getting a bit bombarded on Unity too from people coming out of the woodwork to try and challenge stuff in the guide. Not super bombarded, mind you...but enough. A lot of it is stuff we've already got in there so no worries.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • Lord VegaLord Vega Joined: Posts: 297
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    In the mean time, I'm scouring the main thread for references, sources and challenges to stuff in the plot guide that Vas shot down to see if there is more stuff we should be considering for the guide. I figure it'd be best if we try to take into account claims or challenges other folks who might not still be around might have made against content in the guide. That way we can consider more than just what we all think.

    So far I haven't found anything outside what we've listed really...though it is an infuriating process in light of recent events.

    What about the books? I think we should make a list of what we have until now... I can provide scans or pictures if needed.

    I'll make my (short, as I don't have that many) list as soon as I get home.

  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    Ah that is a good idea as well.

    One thing I found was....Bison's shoulder pads channeling Psycho Power from the Psycho Drive...I've never seen that substantiated anywhere.

    I can take a catalog of my books tonight...and actually should have another book arriving today
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,777 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Man, this is one of the few instances I regret not visiting this forum more often. I've had plot guide 4.4 since forever (as I said in the main thread, it was the last version I was able to read properly) and could have provided it sooner. Oh well.

    Bring on Saiki's post!
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    So if we don't hear back from somebody by end of the weekend, I think what we should do is I'll put up empty files back into the repository with the same outline structure as the guide. People can start adding stuff to those, and they will be easily mergable into the guide if and when we get permission to do so. And if for whatever reason we decide to start over, that work will still be a good beginning for that.
  • ToreyBeansToreyBeans I'mma make u buy me lunch later! Joined: Posts: 704
    edited September 2013
    Don't really know who (i.e. which group of individuals) is gonna handle the new plot guide, but I think it'd be a good idea for anyone who knows Japanese to try their absolute best to translate in English that flows well. That would really be a tremendous service to the community. Could establish a checks and balances system, if you know what I'm saying.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    I definitely agree with that. Getting translations that are functionally gibberish are not really that useful.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • SaikiSaiki Joined: Posts: 99
    So many things to write about I don't even know where to begin....
    Regarding the SGS. I do agree with the notion that the SGS is a physical attack since it's clearly stated in SF4 now. If anything, my assumption will be that the SGS is more like how it was described in the manga Ryu final.
    Regarding Charlie Nash's name, it's in game so that's his full name.(Most likely it was Capcom not wanting to create two seperate scene's for each version and just made Charlie Nash his full name to make it easier)
    I couldn't find the reference I had regarding Vega's shoulder pads channeling his powers. I do recall reading it somewhere. The closest I could find was in the Street Fighter Memorial official fanbook that states his armor is channeling/powering up his powers.

    I am quite a bit out of touch with the story in SF4. I kinda lost interest since a lot of the characters that died were brought back to life.
    Somewhat curious about all these supposed mistranslations that happened tho....
    Anyways, I'll try to post as much as possible and contribute
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    Saiki just made my heart grow three times this day!

    ...which is probably a serious medical problem but I don't care! I'm walking on friggin' sunshine!
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • ToreyBeansToreyBeans I'mma make u buy me lunch later! Joined: Posts: 704
    Glad to see you posting Saiki! I'll be glad to post my findings. Right now, I'm just going through the history of the thread for on going items that were either unresolved or translations that seemed off. I'll be done in about a week or so and then I'll make mention soon after that.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Tiamat recently responded and graciously allowed the use of his file found here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/b7vff3

    However his first recommendation remains the same as mine: you're better off starting from scratch. End.
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    do you know it's impossible to find that Alpha Movie interview I was credit for in the old guide now? it's been so long that now it's gone, so trying to find it on the net would be a waste of effort.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 994
    edited September 2013
    Saiki wrote: »
    Somewhat curious about all these supposed mistranslations that happened tho....
    It's mostly that the translations are only barely readable because of broken English grammar.

    Also for a long time Vasili claimed that some of the Japanese quotes were quite explicit in saying that Gouken and Gen were not alive for real, and then Azrael came to this section and said there wasn't the slightest hint of that. From what I see, that had to do with Vasili wanting to see way too much into those quotes, not because he made a faulty translation of them (other than the broken English as usual).
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    mikros wrote: »
    Saiki wrote: »
    Somewhat curious about all these supposed mistranslations that happened tho....
    It's mostly that the translations are only barely readable because of broken English grammar.

    Also for a long time Vasili claimed that some of the Japanese quotes were quite explicit in saying that Gouken and Gen were not alive for real, and then Azrael came to this section and said there wasn't the slightest hint of that. From what I see, that had to do with Vasili wanting to see way too much into those quotes, not because he made a faulty translation of them (other than the broken English as usual).

    Indeed. There was also the blatant misrepresentation of the events of Gouken & Gouki's epilogue's in SF4 in order to further support the "ghost" argument. There's also inaccuracies in the guide regarding the Shen Long situation.

    The shear illegibility of the translated quotes is what most people talk about though...they make some of SNKs worst engrish look positively Shakespearean.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,997 mod
    edited September 2013
    vasili10 wrote: »
    Tiamat recently responded and graciously allowed the use of his file found here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/b7vff3

    However his first recommendation remains the same as mine: you're better off starting from scratch. End.

    I was CCed on one of the E-mails so I can confirm that we have been in contact with Tiamat at least. He's not dead hooray! Lol!

    For what it's worth me and vasili10 will continue the CFE Faq bit by bit. I won't make a big thing about it on Warrior's Fate. Just check my sig whenever it changes, probably a month or two from now. Any questions on quote translations feel free to PM me.

    Post edited by Sano on
  • ToreyBeansToreyBeans I'mma make u buy me lunch later! Joined: Posts: 704
    edited September 2013
    A couple of folks have already mentioned items that are important for the new plot guide and I'll mention a couple too... Are we going to keep the JP names or go with the American names? Personally for posterity alone it's good to have the JP names. Gouki's name really defines who he is... Someone with a strong spirit. Akuma? Techincally he isn't an evil spirit. Powerful yes. But not demonic though.

    What is the exact aftermath of SF2? Did dictator get SGS'd by Gouki, was the SF4 C. Viper trailer the end of the tourney, or did both of those things happen? Not aware of anyone asking Ono-san this, so I'll give it a go.

    Any chance of retranslations of Vas work, especially pre SF4? To his credit lots of stuff he had right. But many things he's put together ain't that easy to understand.

    Is Zangief gay? Personally I don't think so. Lol

  • DarthEnderDarthEnder Dragon Force Kin Joined: Posts: 2,301
    edited September 2013
    Personally, I really loved Tiamats guide, and I'm not sure you even really CAN start from scratch and still contain a lot of the more interesting information in it, since a lot of it comes from personal sources that you won't likely be able to find reference for anywhere else on the internet.
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    The shear illegibility of the translated quotes is what most people talk about though...they make some of SNKs worst engrish look positively Shakespearean.
    That was always my problem with it. Back in the Tiamat days, the guide for me, was how I familiarized myself with the entire SF mythology. And I spent hours reading it and all the translated information was fascinating and informative.

    Once Vas took over, all the translated sections suddenly read like they'd been fed through Googletranslate.

    Yeah, it was probably a much more literal translation, but it became much worse at it's intended purpose of informing people about SF because just making sense of it became a complete chore.
  • OpinionhaverOpinionhaver SFV Rise Up Joined: Posts: 682
    edited October 2013
    Someone should definitely take it into their own hands, daunting as it is.
    Post edited by Opinionhaver on

  • b64b64 Joined: Posts: 21
    A couple of folks have already mentioned items that are important for the new plot guide and I'll mention a couple too... Are we going to keep the JP names or go with the American names? Personally for posterity alone it's good to have the JP names. Gouki's name really defines who he is... Someone with a strong spirit. Akuma? Techincally he isn't an evil spirit. Powerful yes. But not demonic though.
    Japanese names seem more suitable, although over there at b64 we use the American ones in all the files and data we have (except for Muscle Bomber/Slam Masters, that's all Japanese version though). Anyway, you can never mistake with Dictator, Claw and Boxer. :)
    What is the exact aftermath of SF2? Did dictator get SGS'd by Gouki, was the SF4 C. Viper trailer the end of the tourney, or did both of those things happen? Not aware of anyone asking Ono-san this, so I'll give it a go.
    I'm positive that Gouki killed Dictator with SGS at the end of SF2. However, I'm not entirely sure what exactly happened on the tournament itself.
    Is Zangief gay? Personally I don't think so. Lol
    I didn't notice anything that would hint that, so no, I don't think so either. Zangief is a typical Russian/Soviet stereotype guy, big wrestler who gives everything for his country, definitely not a gay. Not sure where did that come from.

    As for SF4, hopefully Ultra SF4 will make some clear things clear.

    Also, I'm supporting the opinion of doing the plot guide from scratch, but it will be very difficult to do for whoever is planning to do that. The previous plot guide contains a lot of useful info which you won't want to miss. I'll also be very glad to provide help together with other b64s.
    mbd20.png

    Follow @Boulevard64 on Twitter!
  • Lord VegaLord Vega Joined: Posts: 297
    A couple of folks have already mentioned items that are important for the new plot guide and I'll mention a couple too... Are we going to keep the JP names or go with the American names? Personally for posterity alone it's good to have the JP names. Gouki's name really defines who he is... Someone with a strong spirit. Akuma? Techincally he isn't an evil spirit. Powerful yes. But not demonic though.

    What is the exact aftermath of SF2? Did dictator get SGS'd by Gouki, was the SF4 C. Viper trailer the end of the tourney, or did both of those things happen? Not aware of anyone asking Ono-san this, so I'll give it a go.

    I would stick with jap names too.

    The SF2 ending is pure conjecture.
    One of the theories is that T. Hawk, Cammy and Guile met Vega (they are the only ones who really need Vega to be defeated for their ending to happen) and their ending happened. Then, Gouki appeared and SGS Vega. From here, two things might have happened:
    1 - Gouki SGS Vega and left the dictator lying on the ground. Vega survives and his post SF2 black and white picture happens (even Guile's ending could have happened after this incident. Just take a look at his JAPANESE SSF2X ending... and remember that AASF3 in 1997 mentions that Shadoloo and Vega are "alive and well").
    2 - Gouki SGS Vega turning his body to flaming powder, only to have his remains found by Ryu (this was mentioned by a Gamest character flowchart when 3rd Strike was launched). Conjectures leads to believe that Vega's soul entered Seth no 15 before going to vanilla SFIV prologue body.

    If memory serves me right, those 4 trailers where just promotional material non canonic material.
  • DRWDRW Joined: Posts: 438
    What I don't understand: Why is the way and the moment Akuma appeared up for debate anyway? In the game, the following happens: Just as the final battle is about to happen, Akuma jumps in, kills M. Bison and challenges Bison's opponent.

    If that's what's in the game, how is it possible than in canon, Akuma might have appeared after the tournament, killed Bison and then left? Or that Akuma killed Bison with no witnesses so that the dead body could be found later? None of that happens in the game, so how is it possible that this is the official canon? If the game really has top priority in the canon, shouldn't Akuma's appearance be like I said above?

    I find it ironic that, in this case, a non-canon third party comic (the UDON "Street Fighter" comic) is closer to what actually happens in the game than the officially established canon. So, basically, the official canon contradicts the game itself. How is that even possible?
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,841
    DRW wrote: »
    What I don't understand: Why is the way and the moment Akuma appeared up for debate anyway? In the game, the following happens: Just as the final battle is about to happen, Akuma jumps in, kills M. Bison and challenges Bison's opponent.

    If that's what's in the game, how is it possible than in canon, Akuma might have appeared after the tournament, killed Bison and then left? Or that Akuma killed Bison with no witnesses so that the dead body could be found later? None of that happens in the game, so how is it possible that this is the official canon? If the game really has top priority in the canon, shouldn't Akuma's appearance be like I said above?

    I find it ironic that, in this case, a non-canon third party comic (the UDON "Street Fighter" comic) is closer to what actually happens in the game than the officially established canon. So, basically, the official canon contradicts the game itself. How is that even possible?

    I'm still fairly sure at this point that Akuma jumping in against Bison never actually happened in SF2.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • DRWDRW Joined: Posts: 438
    Yeah, that would be of course the easiest version: Akuma watched the tournament, but found nobody worthy to be challenged by him. So, he never interefered and the part of the game where you don't encounter Akuma (because you weren't good enoug) is canon.

    This way, we also have no problems with the endings anymore.
    That's another problem by the way: Not only might the official canon contradict the game, but the game itself contradicts itself: Akuma jumps in, kills Bison, but after you defeat Akuma, you still see the regular ending sequence where the people talk with Bison as if they had defeated him.
  • Lord VegaLord Vega Joined: Posts: 297
    DRW wrote: »
    Yeah, that would be of course the easiest version: Akuma watched the tournament, but found nobody worthy to be challenged by him. So, he never interefered and the part of the game where you don't encounter Akuma (because you weren't good enoug) is canon.

    This way, we also have no problems with the endings anymore.
    That's another problem by the way: Not only might the official canon contradict the game, but the game itself contradicts itself: Akuma jumps in, kills Bison, but after you defeat Akuma, you still see the regular ending sequence where the people talk with Bison as if they had defeated him.

    The difference is in the japanese text. That's why we can assume that Vega survived/can survive the SGS.

    This fact is canon. No one fought Gouki in SF2.

    From what I understand, SF2 was a known event to the whole world. We can assume that Gouki heard about Vega being the sponsor and final opponent and decided to test/attack him with his deadliest move...

    About the game contradicting itself, just take a look at the Zero 3 conclusion storyline...
  • DRWDRW Joined: Posts: 438
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    The difference is in the japanese text. That's why we can assume that Vega survived/can survive the SGS.
    But it's still weird:
    In-game, Akuma jumps in, defeats M. Bison and fights Guile. After the battle, Guile grabs Bison who notes that Guile has become stronger.
    Or if you play the game with Ryu: Bison still stands on place two of the winners' podium. "O.k., I cannot fight anymore, so you win by default. But hey, I still go to the ceremony with you."
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    This fact is canon. No one fought Gouki in SF2.
    Yeah, I know. I was just complaining that the canon and the game don't match. If they intended Akuma to fight nobody after killing Bison, they shouldn't have included him into the game. Or, from the other point of view: If there's a secret opponent in the game who kills the final opponent and then challenges the other finalist, they should have made sure that this is reflected in the storyline as well.
    Of course, you could decide that Akuma appearing didn't canonically happen because it's just one of two possible outcomes in the game. So, you could say that Akuma watched the fighters and looked out for someone who is worthy. If he had found one, he would have killed Bison and challenged his opponent. Since he didn't find one, he didn't jump in, i.e. the scene where you fight M. Bison in the end because you haven't played well enough for Akuma to appear is canon.
    But declaring: "Yes, Akuma did kill Bison like in the game, but no, he didn't challenge anybody else, nor did the kill happen right when another fighter was about to face Bison", that's a huge contradiction.
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    About the game contradicting itself, just take a look at the Zero 3 conclusion storyline...
    What exactly are you referring to?
  • Lord VegaLord Vega Joined: Posts: 297
    DRW wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    The difference is in the japanese text. That's why we can assume that Vega survived/can survive the SGS.

    But it's still weird:
    In-game, Akuma jumps in, defeats M. Bison and fights Guile. After the battle, Guile grabs Bison who notes that Guile has become stronger.
    Or if you play the game with Ryu: Bison still stands on place two of the winners' podium. "O.k., I cannot fight anymore, so you win by default. But hey, I still go to the ceremony with you."
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    This fact is canon. No one fought Gouki in SF2.
    Yeah, I know. I was just complaining that the canon and the game don't match. If they intended Akuma to fight nobody after killing Bison, they shouldn't have included him into the game. Or, from the other point of view: If there's a secret opponent in the game who kills the final opponent and then challenges the other finalist, they should have made sure that this is reflected in the storyline as well.
    Of course, you could decide that Akuma appearing didn't canonically happen because it's just one of two possible outcomes in the game. So, you could say that Akuma watched the fighters and looked out for someone who is worthy. If he had found one, he would have killed Bison and challenged his opponent. Since he didn't find one, he didn't jump in, i.e. the scene where you fight M. Bison in the end because you haven't played well enough for Akuma to appear is canon.
    But declaring: "Yes, Akuma did kill Bison like in the game, but no, he didn't challenge anybody else, nor did the kill happen right when another fighter was about to face Bison", that's a huge contradiction.
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    About the game contradicting itself, just take a look at the Zero 3 conclusion storyline...
    What exactly are you referring to?

    Gouki 's intro where he kills Vega was just a way to introduce him. Bear in mind that we're talking about a character that wasn't known to the public right away. People would have questioned "who's the guy with the weird hair that flashes during the intro?" but they had no idea of who he was or what he was capable of... Then, you play really well, and when you're about to fight the final boss... this dude appears and kills the final boss with one "single" move... and unless you're REALLY good to deal with the surprise factor and this dude cheapness... he'll mop the floor with you. Vega was meant to be the final boss, but since Turbo, his AI became predictable and somewhat easy... (just like in Zero 2 and Zero 3, he's pretty difficult to defeat in Zero 1)... and then Gouki appears... the first thought is "let's see if he is a real challenge..." so...

    If you play as Gouki, just after he defeats Vega, he mocks him and go away... that's not conflicting at all. But if you take a look a Cammy and Guile's ending, you can't help but ask "yeah, right. but what happened with Vega? Ran away? Died? Was put in jail?" that's conflicting.
    It was said that Vega sponsored SF2 to have his revenge against the one who destroyed the "Psycho Drive". I don't see that way. For me, it was to complete his plan from the Zero arc: lure Ryu and possess his body.

    The Vega being defeated by Gouki was shown in other games besides SF2 (and they don't contradict the storyline):

    -Gouki's Zero 1, 2 & 3 ending
    -Adon's Zero 3 ending

    You want Zero 3 contradictions?

    - Amost every character kills Vega;
    - Vega dies after showing Rose who will be the world's destructor, when in fact, he dies in the Psycho Drive base being held by Nash;

    and the list goes on... Zero 3 expanded the storyline really good... but some of it's content and conclusion... yuck! If memory serves me right, it was made by the same team that did the SF3 storyline.
  • DRWDRW Joined: Posts: 438
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    Gouki 's intro where he kills Vega was just a way to introduce him.
    The things you said are all correct, but it still doesn't change the fact that the canon and the game don't match. If they decide to let Akuma appear at the finale where he kills M. Bison, they should reflect this in the storyline. (Or declare that Akuma's interference didn't happen and that the regular final battle against Bison himself is the canon outcome.)
    I mean, the UDON comics did it after all. There, it's similar to the game: Ryu is about to face M. Bison, Akuma appears out of nowhere, fights M. Bison and kills him and then fights Ryu.
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    If you play as Gouki, just after he defeats Vega, he mocks him and go away... that's not conflicting at all.
    No, but you don't want to claim that this is the version that the canon refers to, do you? The story that Akuma killed Bison with the Shun Goku Satsu is obviously based on the game scene that you get when you play very well and Akuma jumps in and kills Bison. It's not based on the situation where the player himself selects Akuma via a cheat code and then plays through the game as if Akuma was a regular contestant and faces Bison in the finale, where you can't even use the Shun Goku Satsu.
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    But if you take a look a Cammy and Guile's ending, you can't help but ask "yeah, right. but what happened with Vega? Ran away? Died? Was put in jail?" that's conflicting.
    It might not be very good story telling, but it has nothing to do with it being conflicting. I.e. there are no contradictions in those scenes. It's just that they don't show Bison's final fate on-screen.
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    The Vega being defeated by Gouki was shown in other games besides SF2 (and they don't contradict the storyline):
    Of course they don't. (Especially since they didn't happen in canon.) But I wasn't referring to them. I was referring to the fact that they declare the pre-battle cutscene from "Super Street Fighter II Turbo" as canon, but yet, in canon it doesn't play out like in the game.
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    You want Zero 3 contradictions?

    - Amost every character kills Vega;
    - Vega dies after showing Rose who will be the world's destructor, when in fact, he dies in the Psycho Drive base being held by Nash;
    Those are not contradictions, but what-if scenarios:
    If Sakura had fought Bison one-on-one like this, then Dark Ryu would have killed Bison.
    If Zangief had reached M. Bison, he would have destroyed the Psycho Drive with Honda's help and killed Bison in the process.

    The scenes don't contradict each other because most of them never happened and are just what would have happened if that specific fighter had reached Bison. And you don't see two of these contradicting scenes in one and the same play session.

    That's the case in most fighting games:
    In "Mortal Kombat" canon, Liu Kang defeated Shang Tsung, Sub-Zero was killed and Scorpion remained a spectre.
    Now, if you win the game with Sub-Zero, he retires and lives on the wealth that he earned by assassinating Shang Tsung.
    If you win the game with Scorpion, he becomes a living being again.

    Those are not contraditictions. If Sub-Zero had won the tournament, he would have retired. SInce he was killed by Scorpion and since Liu Kang was the final winner, neither Scorpion's nor Sub-Zero's ending came to pass. Those two what-if scenarios don't have to line up with each other. They can contradict each other because only one of them is suposed to happen anyway.

    But in "Super Street Fighter II Turbo", the contradiciton isn't based on different outcomes, but it appears in one and the same play session:
    You play with Ryu and reach the finale, then Bison is killed by Akuma, then Bison stands on the winners' podium. What the...?
    Or:
    You play with Guile and reach the finale, then Bison is killed by Akuma, then Bison comments on Guile having become stronger. What the...?

    They should have done a slightly different ending for when you fight Akuma:

    Ryu: Still walking into the sunset, but no ceremony scene. And this time he thinks about the fact that Gouken's death has been avenged and that Akuma was shown that not everybody is corruptable.

    Guile: His wife and daughter still appear, but he doesn't have to decide on what to do with Bison anymore and they go home just like that.

    Cammy: She cannot ask Bison about her past anymore, so she has to head for Vega to get some information. Vega, feeling sorry for her for some reason, tells her a lie: That she was a spy trying to infiltrate Bison's organization. This way, Cammy doesn't have to live with the memory that she used to be a killer for Bison's organization.

    Dhalsim: Instead of having a picture of him, Bison and Sagat on the winners' podium, Dhalsim has reached a higher level of consciousness by defeating Akuma and is now a great guru in India.

    Somethign like that.
    But the way it is now, most endings just don't fit anymore when you unlock Akuma as an opponent. They only make sense in the context where you defeat Bison, but not where you defeat Akuma.
  • DRWDRW Joined: Posts: 438
    What's actually the status of the plot canon guide? Is it still in development? In the moment, it seems like nobody works on it.
    At the beginning, there were some active discussions until Vasili showed up and disallowed the use of his material. Then you waited for him to send you Tiamat's final revision. And that's basically it.
    Some days ago someone posted a scan of a Japanese text that might be useful. And I think there was a post about Adon. But in the moment, there doesn't seem to be any organized, systematic work.
    So, what's the current status? Is the project dead?
«13
Sign In or Register to comment.