Guile thread

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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Good shit Mars. I fucking love the Guile v. Sagat matchup.
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
    Thx man i have another vid, there will be 2 parts. Great Sets.

  • F-A-M-I-L-Y ManF-A-M-I-L-Y Man feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
    Keep em coming, I'm learning a lot from these, let's see some ST guile too :P
    GGPO: Pillowhashi
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    I'd love to see some O.Guile, as that's who I play. All I'm learning from these sets, is how much I wish O.Guile was more like CE Guile :(
  • F-A-M-I-L-Y ManF-A-M-I-L-Y Man feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
    What are the differences? I see a quicker low forward and a different boom recovery animation. I guess the boom recovery is better for CE Guile, but what else?
    GGPO: Pillowhashi
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Buffed normals all across the board, especially his cr.forward, which is given slightly more range. He does more damage on all of his moves, his standard anti-airs feel like they have better priority, and at the very least, trade in your favor. Sonic boom recovery and charge time feels the same.

    Basically CE guile is just a beefier version of O.Guile...he's more better.
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
    Ce guile damage output is pretty high, I think that's the main thing that makes him different. Accorrding to the yoga book hyper, ce guiles low forward is about 14 damage points(which apparently is the same as st) but the range on his hitbox is a lot longer then st guile and o guile. Hf guile is about the same but only does 10 damage points compared to 14 and damage isn't as high but still higher then super turbo and super characters. As for the sonics, ce guile sonic is slightly less recovery then st guiles sonic and flash kick has way bigger hot box. Hf guiles sonic has the worst recovery time of all the versions and ww guile is like ce but has no speed difference between the boom, so if you were to do jab, medium or heavy sonic, they would all be the same. I'm going to upload some more st vids for the time being. El trouble you played really well against wats I don't see anything I would do different in your matches.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Ce guile damage output is pretty high, I think that's the main thing that makes him different. Accorrding to the yoga book hyper, ce guiles low forward is about 14 damage points(which apparently is the same as st) but the range on his hitbox is a lot longer then st guile and o guile. Hf guile is about the same but only does 10 damage points compared to 14 and damage isn't as high but still higher then super turbo and super characters. As for the sonics, ce guile sonic is slightly less recovery then st guiles sonic and flash kick has way bigger hot box. Hf guiles sonic has the worst recovery time of all the versions and ww guile is like ce but has no speed difference between the boom, so if you were to do jab, medium or heavy sonic, they would all be the same. I'm going to upload some more st vids for the time being. El trouble you played really well against wats I don't see anything I would do different in your matches.

    Pretty good analysis of comparisons between the different versions. I always felt like HF and CE were very similar, but CE just felt slightly better, and you've confirmed it.

    Thanks Mars. Very flattering compliment coming from such a top level Guile player. I honestly felt like that was some of the best Guile play I've ever done. I've had plenty of mistakes though, plenty of stupid guess jump-ins, mis-timed sonic booms, etc etc.

    What I found most surprising, is that Guile's neutral fierce, if properly timed, can beat out Sagat's tiger uppercut on start up. Also, there was a point where I caught him with a cr.forward, and it beat out his tiger uppercut clean. Odd shit, and even Watson himself couldn't believe that happened. I guess HF Guile's cr.forward hurt box is slightly behind the tip of his foot.
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
    Pretty good analysis of comparisons between the different versions. I always felt like HF and CE were very similar, but CE just felt slightly better, and you've confirmed it.

    Thanks Mars. Very flattering compliment coming from such a top level Guile player. I honestly felt like that was some of the best Guile play I've ever done. I've had plenty of mistakes though, plenty of stupid guess jump-ins, mis-timed sonic booms, etc etc.

    What I found most surprising, is that Guile's neutral fierce, if properly timed, can beat out Sagat's tiger uppercut on start up. Also, there was a point where I caught him with a cr.forward, and it beat out his tiger uppercut clean. Odd shit, and even Watson himself couldn't believe that happened. I guess HF Guile's cr.forward hurt box is slightly behind the tip of his foot.


    Lol thx for the compliments I wish I was as good as people say hehehehe. But in that match, id say its about 6 to 4 sagat. Yea low forwand can stuff uppercut and trade with tigers. O guile is sorta a mixed bag. I would say he's more close toward ce due to damage from the low ce forward being bacck to 14 and less recovery time on sonics, but everything else is weaker priority. I'm curious as to where people say o guiles low forward is better then st guiles lol. Its the same thing as stated in yoga book.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    The damage difference for the ST versions is much lower, Mars. O.Guile | Guile
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
    Wow interesting. Where did you find this data before wiki? Yoga book it states there actually the same and also somebody on the don't blow this forums posted differences too and they were exactly the same. Also to note o guile flash kick is better as an anti air becuause the hit box directs sliglty upword then st guile.
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
    http://golden-songs.com/ssf2st/theoryfighter.html

    I believe this is uploaded from the dbt forums thanks to pillowface but clearly both damages are the same.
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
    http://golden-songs.com/ssf2st/theoryfighter.html

    As you can see here, both damage outputs are the same. Big Thanks to Pillowface for uploading this find at DBT. I think theres more testing to be done though. What do you guys think?
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    hey, the wiki and the theory fighter info is completely different. Which is accurate? According to the wiki, hawks normals do a shit ton more damage then n hawk. but on that theory fighter site, its the same. which is the right numbers?
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
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  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    The numbers from theory fighter are copied from takiba's website and ybh.

    The numbers from the wiki are found by osbr & b2spd using dammit's/pasky's script.

    osbr, do you take 10 numbers from the engine and average it out? or is the damage output constant?
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Lol thx for the compliments I wish I was as good as people say hehehehe. But in that match, id say its about 6 to 4 sagat. Yea low forwand can stuff uppercut and trade with tigers. O guile is sorta a mixed bag. I would say he's more close toward ce due to damage from the low ce forward being bacck to 14 and less recovery time on sonics, but everything else is weaker priority. I'm curious as to where people say o guiles low forward is better then st guiles lol. Its the same thing as stated in yoga book.

    Agreed. Guile v. Sagat feels more even than when playing the same match in ST. O.Sagat v. O.Guile is a pretty uphill battle, considering that o.sagat is better than his old versions, whereas o.guile is a watered down version of his CPS1 days.

    Not sure who said that his low forward is better, it feels exactly the same. MAYBE a slight boost in damage, but nothing to celebrate.

    And correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the yoga book has been known to contain some inaccuracies? Also, I remember papercut discovering a certain combo that worked with Ryu, I think it was cr.short to st.fierce link. It worked great on the emulated ST on his computer, but it didn't work on arcade ST. That might introduce some inaccuracies as well, when deciphering data on emulated ST.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Wow interesting. Where did you find this data before wiki? Yoga book it states there actually the same and also somebody on the don't blow this forums posted differences too and they were exactly the same. Also to note o guile flash kick is better as an anti air becuause the hit box directs sliglty upword then st guile.
    I got it from the game, using Pasky's HUD which allowed me to check the damage, and later using Dammit's lua and breakpoints, which made it possible to see the actual damage formula. Then, I added it to the wiki. Images are from Born2SPD.
    hey, the wiki and the theory fighter info is completely different. Which is accurate? According to the wiki, hawks normals do a shit ton more damage then n hawk. but on that theory fighter site, its the same. which is the right numbers?
    T.Hawk and O.Ken data have been obtained from the game, but are in %, just like Yoga Book Hyper. I had gathered those before Dammit and Pasky released their luas and scripts. The sections for the other characters are in actual (in-game) damage.
    osbr, do you take 10 numbers from the engine and average it out? or is the damage output constant?
    I had taken an average, taking much more than 10 numbers, when appropriate. I have taken the most common values otherwise. For instance, 4 is the most common damage value for shotos' weak attacks, so it made no sense to try and get an average which would certainly be very close to 4 anyway. I have also rounded down any averaging. Finally, those damage values will be lower against Honda, Dictator, Sagat, etc., and even lower against Zangief, as they have more damage reduction.
    And correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the yoga book has been known to contain some inaccuracies?
    Some stuff is wrong, and some stuff in incomplete. For instance, several moves do different damage or stun values in different instants, the YBH does not have such data. The YBH also has mostly no data for old characters.
    Also, I remember papercut discovering a certain combo that worked with Ryu, I think it was cr.short to st.fierce link. It worked great on the emulated ST on his computer, but it didn't work on arcade ST. That might introduce some inaccuracies as well, when deciphering data on emulated ST.
    Emulated ST, under good emulators, is fine: clearly better than any POS console port Capcom has released. Papercut used the training mode script, which is bugged and changes things such as recovery.
  • F-A-M-I-L-Y ManF-A-M-I-L-Y Man feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
    Man, the rabbithole goes too deep. Also, I found that there's a discrepency between the flash kick information between wiki and theory fighter. O. and N. Guile have the same hitboxes for the flash kick in the wiki, but not in the theory fighter.
    GGPO: Pillowhashi
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    Man, the rabbithole goes too deep. Also, I found that there's a discrepency between the flash kick information between wiki and theory fighter. O. and N. Guile have the same hitboxes for the flash kick in the wiki, but not in the theory fighter.

    The hitboxes are the same. However, dammit's lua script has 1-2 frames delay in drawing the hitboxes.

    b2spd later found a way to slow down the emulator to 25% so that he got no delay. So some moves that have rapid changing hitboxes will be out of sync with the animation on the theory fighter (it was done the as soon as we learned about the dammit script).
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    The wiki is the most accurate source of info. Excluding some cases like N.Hawk page and O.Ken page that are outdated...
    By the way, Mars, would you be interested in writing some stuff for the guile pages? I cant think of anybody better for this job.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    only thing i like about o.guile is his alt color.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
    Ah man ill see. I'm not big on writing things. I made an hdr guide a while back but it wasn't so great. What I would suggest is seeing if maybe brian can write something or fifth and sum bud. They are far superior then myself.
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401


    Super Turbo this time lol. Awesome set. Jollies is a Beast. Unfortunately some of the upload got messed up and matches 4 through 6 is missing so ill be reuploading this soon.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Thanks for clearing up the confusion about ybh, the wikis, training mode scripts, etc etc.
    only thing i like about o.guile is his alt color.

    It's his best color, besides his standard blue color for N.Guile. I really like being able to do st.lk and backfist while maintaining charge, as well as his old school st.RH anti-air, even though it's a shadow of its former self.
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    yeah i think its his ww alt color too but i really dont like how his st.mp hixbox doesnt extend upwards. its a good anti air when spaced right
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    yeah i think its his ww alt color too but i really dont like how his st.mp hixbox doesnt extend upwards. its a good anti air when spaced right

    It's useless in comparison to his cr.fierce, st.forward, st.roundhouse, and st.jab. Most of which will either beat jump in moves clean (at VERY specific ranges and timing), or trade in your favor.
  • MarsflashMarsflash BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    Oh damn , j.hp cr.lk st.mp flashkick on sim was nice.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    It's useless in comparison to his cr.fierce, st.forward, st.roundhouse, and st.jab. Most of which will either beat jump in moves clean (at VERY specific ranges and timing), or trade in your favor.
    I think jdm has a point. You need that crap against Chun Li as N.Guile.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    I think jdm has a point. You need that crap against Chun Li as N.Guile.

    I was referring to O.Guile in my post, and he doesn't have that against Chun-Li.

    Only tools O.Guile has against Chun is st.jab, cl.st.forward, and walk-under st.jab or cl.st.forward, along with cr.forward/roundhouse at max range.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I know. I think he has very little against Chun Li. 3-7 or 2-8, probably.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    I know. I think he has very little against Chun Li. 3-7 or 2-8, probably.

    I actually kind of like the challenge. It's unlike Guile's usual strategy for handling most characters. He has to alternate very decisively between turtling, and walking forward to land pokes, or anti-airs, while trying his damned best to avoid getting caught by Chun's super.

    That and it's REALLY fun trying to do the Guile trap against Chun. I dunno, I really enjoy playing guile's bad matchups, I'm masochistic like that.
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    walk under jump ins with guile and grab / anti air with jab/st.hp on land especially against chun li on certain situations. read the spacing and timing right. and yeah that st.mp is useful with n.guile vs chun.
    and o.guile doesnt have that sobat kick on command to retreat to create some space so another headache tryna escape chuns pressure. i always thought and still think that guiles(old or new) best anti air is his j.hp(early as possible) in this match up even though chun can air to air against the whole cast.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    walk under jump ins with guile and grab / anti air with jab/st.hp on land especially against chun li on certain situations. read the spacing and timing right. and yeah that st.mp is useful with n.guile vs chun.
    and o.guile doesnt have that sobat kick on command to retreat to create some space so another headache tryna escape chuns pressure. i always thought and still think that guiles(old or new) best anti air is his j.hp(early as possible) in this match up even though chun can air to air against the whole cast.

    Walk under seems to be the best option for him. Cl.st.mk works REALLY well against Chun, but it's difficult to space/time properly without practice, and every now and then it trades.

    O.Guile has it rough in this matchup. He's forced to play footsies in the end, which is never an easy task against Chun, and his anti-airs aren't very reliable unless done either REALLY close, or REALLY far away. He can't really do much at mid-range, other than walk up, or walk back, to maintain his zone.
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    Idk maybe mars can post up that match up if anything. IMO o.guile isn't worth it even though hes still competitive.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    N.Guile is definitely better than O.Guile as a whole, but I prefer playing with O.Guile's style, if that makes any sense.

    It's like guys who play O.Ryu. Sure, N.Ryu is better as a whole, but O.Ryu harkens to an older style of SF play.
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    yeah it makes sense, just some match ups don't lol. especially against chun li, which never a good idea to play her footsie games.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • F-A-M-I-L-Y ManF-A-M-I-L-Y Man feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
    Does anyone know the travel speed of the various booms? Block stun numbers would be nice too.
    GGPO: Pillowhashi
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    And, to piggy-back off that, what are the differences between O.Guile and N.Guile regarding boom speed as well? That, as well as the differences for the other fireball characters, would be great to have in the wiki.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Does anyone know the travel speed of the various booms? Block stun numbers would be nice too.

    Projectiles typically have 34 (turbo 0) frames of block stun. I'm not sure if there are exceptions besides Ryu's super.
    For HDR, I have the following:
    http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/projectiles/sonicbooms.png
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
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