• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
Hmm, between that info and what you have listed in http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/misc/jumpinfo.html, it seems that you really have to keep a close distance to people if you want to keep a corner trap going. A mix between theory right now and what I've seen the Nakano/Kikai do, but if you're spaced approximately at the 20 frame mark, your recovery is over as they start 34 frame blockstun. You have enough time for a whiffed bazooka knee (32 frames) and then cr. jab hitbox shows up 2 frames after they are out of blockstun to start a new blockstring.

I think it will take some experimenting to find the right spacing and strength of booms to use as well as mixup to keep them from jumping over a boom. But I definitely need to be closer than I have been, which is good to know.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
Boom travel speed is easy to calculate using the memory X positions as the units. Keep in mind the amount of units on the screen at one time is 383 (this is the left edge of the screen to the right edge of the screen). Also keep in mind that the character dummies can never be exactly on the left edge or right edge of the screen. In Guile's case he is always +40 or -40 from the edges. so if you wanna calculate the distance with guile standing all the way on the left side of the screen add 40 to left screen edge's position (or just use his X position). If you're on the right side of the screen you'd subtract 40 (or use his X). You must also add or subtract 64 units because that's how far the projectile starts on its first active frame in front of him. So here's an example:

Left screen edge = 358
Guile's X Position = 398 (358 + 40)
Boom starting position = 462 (398 + 64)

The boom's center axis starts at 462.

• LP Boom: Approximately 2.116666666666667 seconds to travel one full screen
(Approximately because it's measured when the center of the projectile is at the screen edge, not when any part of it is)

Travels at 3 per frame (383 / 3 == 127 frames)
127 frames to travel full screen with the center of the projectile touching the left screen edge until the center touches the right screen edge.
• MP Boom: Approximately 1.595833333333333 seconds to travel one full screen

Travels at 4 per frame (383 /4 == 95.75 frames)
• HP Boom: Approximately 1.276666666666667 seconds to travel one full screen

Travels at 5 per frame (383 / 5 == 76.6 frames)
You could take it further by getting the X-offset from the projectiles center so you can get the projectiles edges and get pinpoint accuracy on when it would hit a specific point.
<Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
<bookah> turbo handjob
<baklakiller> sure if had a penis
<baklakiller> im a beginner gief
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
Wow that's incredibly in depth, good food for thought.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
Does anyone know the travel speed of the various booms? Block stun numbers would be nice too.

Block stun value is the same. I'm not really a frame data, but I just play by feel. Recovery for all versions feel the same, and all have use, depending on the matchup and your spacing.
And, to piggy-back off that, what are the differences between O.Guile and N.Guile regarding boom speed as well? That, as well as the differences for the other fireball characters, would be great to have in the wiki.

O.Guile and N.Guile sonic boom speed feels exactly the same, no difference there, although I wish O.Guile had WW's Guile's faster charge time, that would be nice. Throw in his superior cr.forward from CE too while we're at it.
• BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
Wow ww guile has faster change? You learn new things everyday lol.
• SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
Did you actually tested that eltrouble? No offense but I think you're wrong... I say that based on this site which has all the input info for HSF2. As you can see all versions have to charge for 60 frames (minus HF guile, which have to charge for 61 frames, but thats the same in practice).
Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
Did you actually tested that eltrouble? No offense but I think you're wrong... I say that based on this site which has all the input info for HSF2. As you can see all versions have to charge for 60 frames (minus HF guile, which have to charge for 61 frames, but thats the same in practice).

I was told the charge time was faster in WW by some of the OGs I talked to. Maybe it just felt that way do to the slower speed? No offense taken.
• Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
WW Guile's charge time is indeed 60 frames. It's at memory address 0xFF8447 in the rom (SF2). It starts at 0x3C (60). His flashkick is also 60 in WW.
<Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
<bookah> turbo handjob
<baklakiller> sure if had a penis
<baklakiller> im a beginner gief
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
Papasi was telling me that Pasky is also left-handed.
• Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
Hahahaha.
<Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
<bookah> turbo handjob
<baklakiller> sure if had a penis
<baklakiller> im a beginner gief
• Joined: Posts: 1,608
^^^ It's true. When pasky plays, he does a reach around with his right hand on the stick and his left on the buttons. He told me he could play normally, but he just likes reaching around things to hold the stick. Hey, what ever works right?
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Ah shit..
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
• BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401

Watch out for this guy on supercade, he is just plain nasty. Hope you guys enjoy this set as much as i did watching it.
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
Love the Ryu-Guile dynamic of course, I could watch this matchup all day. Surprised to see you using ST Guile. Great gameplay from both, so many close rounds.
...
Haha, damn you paid for dropping the Muteki Special.
...
Ooh, jab jab kara super!
...
Oh there's the CE Guile, and out comes CE Ryu, just going back in time.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
Kurahashi uses the standing hit recovery into flash kick trick here (fHZWfSi7g1E at YT, 22:50). How exactly is this done? I remember some explanation in NH2's blog but I am not sure if I could get it right.
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
For some reason, Guile has a standing hit animation when you charge db and then move to df on impact. So, charge db, df right when the jump-in hits, then up + kick.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
Nice set Mars. Any reason why you chose to play AE over regular ST?

Also, why do you dislike the Ryu v.Guile? I think it's one of the best matches in the game. CE/HF Ryu can be more of a pain though :(
• BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401

Little nice set here as well. Check out Doc Holliday on supercade. Solid DJ.
• BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401
I like the varity of character versions in the game. Also to note, a lot less trolls. As for ryu vs guile, It just feels ryu has an unlimited arsonal and guile just feels so limited. If when using other versions of guile, it feels more in ryus favor just because of the tick throw setups and safe jump. Just my opinion.
• Joined: Posts: 83
I like the varity of character versions in the game. Also to note, a lot less trolls. As for ryu vs guile, It just feels ryu has an unlimited arsonal and guile just feels so limited. If when using other versions of guile, it feels more in ryus favor just because of the tick throw setups and safe jump. Just my opinion.
I've always wondered about the ce guile ce ryu match. On knockdown ryu can def safe jump and mixup/tick throw all day long and the odds are in his favor then, but ce guile has insane recovery and so much range. I know he's kurahashi, but he had little trouble beating down everyone with ce guile in a big ae tourney in japan.
shotosallday
Outturtled
Bach
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
I like the varity of character versions in the game. Also to note, a lot less trolls. As for ryu vs guile, It just feels ryu has an unlimited arsonal and guile just feels so limited. If when using other versions of guile, it feels more in ryus favor just because of the tick throw setups and safe jump. Just my opinion.

True, but you just sort of learn to ignore the trolls and focus on the game. It's good advice for learning to deal with the internet in general.

Personally, I love the match-up, it feels good going up against good Ryu players and winning out in a couple games. Although I suspect it may be because they don't really know the matchup.

I know what you mean about tick throw setups. It's very frustrating to deal with, but I just write it off as my own fault, since Ryu shouldn't be able to knock me down anyway. shotosallday abuses tick throws like mad, and so far, he's the only Ryu player to consistently beat my O.Guile.
I've always wondered about the ce guile ce ryu match. On knockdown ryu can def safe jump and mixup/tick throw all day long and the odds are in his favor then, but ce guile has insane recovery and so much range. I know he's kurahashi, but he had little trouble beating down everyone with ce guile in a big ae tourney in japan.

I think CE guile is the best version of him. That being said, he's still susceptible to tick throws. Best strategy for Guile is to play conservative, land damage whenever you can, try your best to look for either clean or trade on the anti-airs, and stay on your feet.

CE Ryu is harder to deal with than ST Ryu imo. His recover on the fireball is so fast, his invulerable tatsu is difficult to punish without risk of getting knocked down and trading unfavorably. His normals are better as well.
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
Anyone care to ramble about character-specific strategies? I'm not an expert yet but I guess that's more the reason to have people look at my approaches. I guess I'll start w/Chun.

Opening moves
Down-back
This is my default unless I notice the Chun player always opens with fireball because I hate being jumped on over a boom at round start. That usually leads to knockdown and closeup game that is so bad against Chun. The best-case to worst-case follow-up scenarios:
1. Chun jumps into a flash kick.
2. Chun jumps back. I think you might be able to get her to land on a strong or fierce boom on reaction, but I'm not sure about this.
3. Chun walks back to build meter with kikokens. Sonic boom and push her towards the corner as soon as she's out of jump-in range.
4. Stuff or retreat from a walkup attack/throw. Back sobat is usually best for this. It beats/avoids low attacks and her standing strong, it keeps a healthy distance and avoids being stuck in block when it whiffs, it recovers in time for anti-air normals on whiff, it works as an anti-air normal, and it keeps a sonic boom charge. You lose positional advantage doing this though, which is why I rated it low.
5. Reaction sonic boom against a kikoken for fireball cancel, or Chun sits in down-back, and the midrange footsies begins.
Sonic Boom
This is my go to if I notice Chun is trigger happy on fireball openings. Best- to worst-case follow-up scenarios:
1. Chun jumps back and lands on the sonic boom. She takes damage, you get a knockdown and positional advantage. Not sure which strength is optimal for her to land on the boom.
2. Chun fireballs and eats a backfist.
3. Chun walks forward and takes the boom.
4. Chun takes chip damage and you gain positional advantage. I think I would follow up with st. Roundhouse while she's in blockstun, maybe even whiffed bazooka knee into a poke if I'm feeling sassy.
5. Chun jumps in and gets a combo/knockdown/positional advantage. I hate this so much.
Kara forward sobat flash kick
Always highly risky and to be used sparingly of course, always fun when it works and you clip them with the edge over a kikoken. I wouldn't do this if I'm playing to win. The best- and worst-case scenarios should be obvious.

Hmm, time to do some actual work. Feedback would be nice, I might add close, midrange, long-range, and corner game too eventually.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
snip
If Chun jumps, Guile may try immediate st.Strong, if the far version is still in range; late cr.Fierce, for a trade; early cr.Fierce, for force her to use early head stomp, or late close st.Fwd, to force her to use an early head stomp. These were things Muteki used when fignting Chuns who would jump from mid range.
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
Ah yes, those are the go-to anti-airs. They are so hard to do, but so necessary. I've personally found this fight is better standing and using knee bazooka/st. roundhouse/sobats to control spacing because close and mid-close range game sucks and downback means it's easy for her to walk into a bad range. But then standing leaves me without the flash kick, so I have to struggle with constantly thinking about whether I'm in far strong, close forward, or back sobat range. I don't really like cr. fierce actually because it gets stuffed so easily by Chun's j. forward. It works on occasion but not reliable enough where I would use it on purpose, I only use it out of habit.

Respect to anyone who can time far strong reliably, even more respect to the Guile players who can give up charge for a neutral close forward, and serious respect to those who know the ranges for the two. I admire this more than any flashy combo honestly, and it's funny to get excited over an anti-air normal when nobody else seems to care.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
The key to this matchup is knowing how to maintain your spacing so that you're in a position to anti-air. As O.Guile, the ones I use primarily are

1) Trade cr.fierce, but it only works at certain ranges, and I haven't locked down exactly why it sometimes trades, and why it gets beat clean by j.forward.

2) St.jab at max range. It beats her j.forward clean, at ranges where going for a trip guard low attack will get stuffed if she times it late.

3) St.forward. Pretty difficult anti-air to use, due to its proximity restrictions. It's indispensable when doing Guile's corner trap against Chun (Shout out to Watson for showing me this). It's not a virtual lock, but as as long as your execution and spacing is on point, she HAS to take damage from the trap at some point.

4) Walk under and cl.fierce, st.jab, cr.jab. This is pretty difficult to utilize correctly, but it's a deadly tool for Guile. Due to the floatiness of her jump, at close/mid-range, you can react to her jump in by walking forward and landing one of these. The cl.fierce seems more difficult to pull off than the jabs, but obviously a higher damage reward, which is a must in this matchup.

Much like any other match, this is all about the lifelead, learning to maintain it, and protecting your zone in order to keep away from her annoyingly fast and prioritized low attacks and jump-ins. At mid-range, if you throw a slow sonic boom, it will trade with her super. I use this move all the time, and Chun players seem surprised when I can pull it off consistently. I will gladly trade a bit of life to diffuse the super any day of the week.
• Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
A couple of good examples of using the far Strong as anti-air, and the walk-under close Fierce:
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
Nice video example. Daigo does a great job staying at ranges where he's able to punish Chun's kikoken, while leaving himself mobile in order to walk under and anti-air her.

Also an example of how NOT to play against Guile when you're a Chun player. Chun has to learn to play defensively and build meter. Guile is supposed to attack her, not the other way around. Once Chun builds meter, it completely reverses the momentum of the match.
• Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
I believe videos of good players against bad ones are interesting, since you see them dealing with things good players rarely do, since they know it can be countered. For instance: I watched a bunch of Otochun vs Muteki matches and Otochun would only jump-in when he got a knockdown. And we know it isn't that easy for Guile to punish Chun's air shit. But Muteki is "above average", LOL.
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
I believe videos of good players against bad ones are interesting, since you see them dealing with things good players rarely do, since they know it can be countered. For instance: I watched a bunch of Otochun vs Muteki matches and Otochun would only jump-in when he got a knockdown. And we know it isn't that easy for Guile to punish Chun's air shit. But Muteki is "above average", LOL.

Oh I also believe that you can learn from watching any match, since it's important to learn how to deal with a variety of playstyles. For example, player A may not be as good as player B, but if player A starts to play the matchup in an unorthodox style, and B isn't ready for it and can't adapt, he could very likely lose.

Anyways. Guile v. Chun. It's still good for Chun, rough for Guile. I'd say its 6-4, or 6.5.
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
Bad vs. Good matches are great for watching for the reasons oldschool mentioned. I'll occasionally play someone that doesn't really play the game and then I get caught off guard by something because it's totally not in the 'matchup handbook.' There's a lot of 'don't do this' but sometimes hard to see why unless the other person knows a counter.

Close range game
I usually try to avoid close range vs Chun with back sobat and jumping back, but sometimes shit just happens and I end up in the corner. I usually mash on db. + jab + strong, so strong will soften the throw but jab will come out due to the way inputs are read and I'll also be charged up to get my distance back. That's pretty much all I got. Block/mash/soften until I land a jab into some pokes, maybe gamble on occasional reversal if they're getting to aggressive. Maybe try a crossup. No idea though if she's got super. I usually just get tossed silly in close range when Chun has super.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
Bad vs. Good matches are great for watching for the reasons oldschool mentioned. I'll occasionally play someone that doesn't really play the game and then I get caught off guard by something because it's totally not in the 'matchup handbook.' There's a lot of 'don't do this' but sometimes hard to see why unless the other person knows a counter.

Close range game
I usually try to avoid close range vs Chun with back sobat and jumping back, but sometimes shit just happens and I end up in the corner. I usually mash on db. + jab + strong, so strong will soften the throw but jab will come out due to the way inputs are read and I'll also be charged up to get my distance back. That's pretty much all I got. Block/mash/soften until I land a jab into some pokes, maybe gamble on occasional reversal if they're getting to aggressive. Maybe try a crossup. No idea though if she's got super. I usually just get tossed silly in close range when Chun has super.

If you're in the corner, you can also try st.lk, cr.lk to fend off her advance. You can also go for nj.roundhouse or nj.fierce. That usually tends to confuse Chun players, since they rarely see Guiles doing that, and nj.fierce is pretty damn good air-to-ground attack.

If Chun gets the super while she's close to you, it's pretty damn difficult to avoid damage. Most of the time though, she lands super at mid-to-far range, which gives you an opportunity to just throw a jab sonic boom. Her only options, if she wants to avoid damage or chip, is to match it with her own fireball, jump towards you to gain some distance, or neutral jump. At least in this situation, it makes her more predictable, and thus easier to counter.
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
If you're in the corner, you can also try st.lk, cr.lk to fend off her advance. You can also go for nj.roundhouse or nj.fierce. That usually tends to confuse Chun players, since they rarely see Guiles doing that, and nj.fierce is pretty damn good air-to-ground attack.

I love nj. fierce! It is so good, I think of it as an anti-ground. I use it a lot in matchups like rog or blanka, but I have never thought to do it against Chun. I'll have to try that one.
If Chun gets the super while she's close to you, it's pretty damn difficult to avoid damage. Most of the time though, she lands super at mid-to-far range, which gives you an opportunity to just throw a jab sonic boom. Her only options, if she wants to avoid damage or chip, is to match it with her own fireball, jump towards you to gain some distance, or neutral jump. At least in this situation, it makes her more predictable, and thus easier to counter.

I guess in close range super situations, runaway then jab booms are the answer then, and if you run out of room to runaway and she closes in, crossup is your only hope out of the corner lest you try to soften a throw that turned out to be a super.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
I love nj. fierce! It is so good, I think of it as an anti-ground. I use it a lot in matchups like rog or blanka, but I have never thought to do it against Chun. I'll have to try that one.

I guess in close range super situations, runaway then jab booms are the answer then, and if you run out of room to runaway and she closes in, crossup is your only hope out of the corner lest you try to soften a throw that turned out to be a super.

nj.fierce and roundhouse is also extremely useful vs. Sagats. It does a very good job of hitting his limbs, or his face. If you space it out properly, his only counter options are walk-up st.strong, st.fierce, or st.roundhouse. All these options which seem to lose or trade with nj.fierce. If you're slightly out of range for a fierce, a roundhouse does a pretty good job of hitting his limbs too. I can't recall if the kick is able to hit his low tigers, I remember it does in HF.

You can go for the the cross-up, since it's not much better than any of Guile's options at close ranges, especially in the corner. Good Chuns can go for jumping anti-airs, or walk-under anti-airs, but at least it takes her super charge away. I usually hope they walk-under and reset me in the air, so that I have a fighting chance of escaping. If they decide to charge the super, they have to be willing to let you escape, if they push forward for the attack, at least you know you won't be eating a 50% super.

Walking backwards and doing sobat seems to be an effective tool against Chun. It's pretty difficult to flash kick chun li when she does a max-range meaty cr.forward. I normally try to go for it after the meaty attack, or the follow-up attack, since that's when Chun's usually go for the throw or walk forward strong.
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
Walking backwards and doing sobat seems to be an effective tool against Chun. It's pretty difficult to flash kick chun li when she does a max-range meaty cr.forward. I normally try to go for it after the meaty attack, or the follow-up attack, since that's when Chun's usually go for the throw or walk forward strong.

Midrange without charge for a boom and after having applied pressure, this is my definite go-to. I think a good midrange dynamic is what makes ST fun for me, so close range/super difficulties aside, this is why I really like this matchup. Aside from the flashkick anti-air or reversal to crossup, this is pretty much where I'm getting most of my damage, and it's almost always get in, get out.

Midrange:
-Sonic boom cancel kikouken to backfist.
-Forward sobat to backward sobat. Low forward is pretty much outclassed by Chun's low forward and roundhouse, so it's not as useful in the midrange as against other characters. It's not even one of those things where it's punishable so much as flat out not working unless she's walking or something. But forward sobat goes right over her low attacks with the right distance/timing, and back sobat will catch her a 2nd time if she tries to sweep your recovery or something. I usually vary the number of forward sobats between 1 and 2.
-St. Roundhouse - good when Chun is at a whiff range. I am finding that the ideal distance for this is further than one would think, like the move should only hit if the opponent is moving forward and whiff otherwise.
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• BGG BITCHES!! Joined: Posts: 401

Little Combo Vid i wanted to finish up. Enjoy.
• feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
Good shit! Sigel, rep Philly, land of Boxers and Guiles!
GGPO: Pillowhashi
• Joined: Posts: 163
any utility for st fierce and cl roundhouse? i never see people using those normals, the st fierce doesnt have range, it can be used as a anti air? and cl rh?? i NEVER see that normal in a match
My Totem is too cheap for your desperate fighting Techniques!
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
any utility for st fierce and cl roundhouse? i never see people using those normals, the st fierce doesnt have range, it can be used as a anti air? and cl rh?? i NEVER see that normal in a match

st.fierce can actually be used in combos, as well as anti-airs. For example, in the Chun matchup, there's a certain close range where you can react to Chun's jump attack by walking under her, and landing a st.jab, st.strong, or st.fierce. All 3 work, but obviously fierce is preferred for its damage, but it's easier to land the st.jab in comparison, it really depends on how good your AAs are.

You can also use st.fierce in combos. For punish or a dizzy combo, j.RH, st.fierce xx flashkick. Or in the corner against certain characters, you can do the 4 fierce combo. j.fierce, st.fierce, fierce sonic boom, backfist.
• Joined: Posts: 163
st.fierce can actually be used in combos, as well as anti-airs. For example, in the Chun matchup, there's a certain close range where you can react to Chun's jump attack by walking under her, and landing a st.jab, st.strong, or st.fierce. All 3 work, but obviously fierce is preferred for its damage, but it's easier to land the st.jab in comparison, it really depends on how good your AAs are.

You can also use st.fierce in combos. For punish or a dizzy combo, j.RH, st.fierce xx flashkick. Or in the corner against certain characters, you can do the 4 fierce combo. j.fierce, st.fierce, fierce sonic boom, backfist.

i think you talking about that version

and nobody use this

My Totem is too cheap for your desperate fighting Techniques!
• Joined: Posts: 5,731
i think you talking about that version