Guile thread

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  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Following cancelling a boom against Ryu's Hadoken, I hit him with the tip of a f+MK Sobat.
    What next?

    Inclination is go to for a d.MK, maybe another and throw a boom.

    I think my generic action there would be low jab, low forward. Then walk backwards, or sonic boom, or do nothing. Sobat-> low forward as a generic play seems risky.

    Of course you nail him with back fist following the boom/hadoken cancel you push him too far out, what then?

    I tend to go for the backfist by default, and then my generic followup is backwards sobat, and then sonic boom. If he threw an immediate fireball you may have to block or jump up or whatever. If he really loves to throw fireballs after being backfisted, then tag him with a jump in eventually.

    I think backfist followed by walking forward and attacking is probably going to get you in trouble.

    Also isnt whiffing lots of low jabs against ryu going to get you swept?

    I think alot of Guile's have the wrong philosophy in the Ryu match:
    Its not that Guile is trying to get in and Ryu is trying to keep him out. It's more the other way around.. Guile is throwing sonic booms all day long making it hard for Ryu to get in. If Ryu overdoes the fireballs, Guile can tag him with kicks to the face, but Ryu doesn't have the same luxury.

    your offense mostly consists of little hit and run sessions: Get in, do a sobat, maybe a low jab low forward, then walk backwards and go back to throwing booms.
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    Just getting a strat session going.
    So we're basically going for 1 hit the whole time, that and chip.

    Yeah, whiffing a lot of low jabs would get you swept.
    A d.LP, d.MK looks good, though you said you go for backfist more, perhaps in Sagat's case then.

    Guess I'm fishing for patterns to use on the fly and avoid when they become common in a match. How is it said again, the stuff you do throughout the most makes the things you do the least (the safest and most effective of which) that much more unexpected?

    How often do JPN Guile's walk forward and throw?

    ---which sonic booms would you use in these instances?
    I think up close about sweep range I'd use Fierce, throughout the rest of the screen anything goes for spacing purposes really.

    ---How about just getting close enough to backfist after a boom?
    It seems patience and allowing blocked fireballs to push you back after a jump in or two knee bazookas are expected, or an occasional anticipated jump spaced and timed right so as to be rather out of range for a DP...
    Or do you walk forward and only build charge once you've gained a good amount of footing here?

    I'm not particularly interested in combos with Guile anyway since he never struck me as a "combo machine" in the first place.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Its not really about chip per se, as it as about countering all the moves (hurricanes, jump straight up, jump towards, fireballs) that your opponent tries to use to get around your sonics. Thats where your damage comes from.

    I guess I use backfist not sobat becuase Im tending to cancel fireballs with sonics from long range where I need the full range of the backfist.

    I rarely try to throw after a blocked sonic boom... the risk/reward just isnt there. On the other hand following a sonic and then throwing after ducking for a sec to make them block, or just doing the throw at awkward suprising times is ok once in a while.

    Against Ryu I tend to throw fierce sonics, but mix in jab ones to make it harder for him to short hurricane over them.

    Here's a really important thing about getting around Ryu fireballs:

    If Ryu is hailing fireballs on you from full screen, then you have the option of seeing a fireball, and jumping forward *on reaction* and landing safely. This requires no guesswork.. you see the fireball, then empty jump foward, and Ryu cant do anything if you did it quickly enough (from full screen).
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    I think alot of Guile's have the wrong philosophy in the Ryu match:

    Think maybe you're right.
    I *do* try to sneak in pokes whenever I can, however I can, all while storing charge, making the most of those times when I have the initiative in close.
    That gameplan is obviously flawed.

    Good discussion though.
    Think I take the sobats usage from fighting Sagat often, since you can't backfist his low tigers.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    He is a meaty combo that I picked up from Thomas Osaki at Evo 2k2(using old Guile).

    As the opponent is about to get up, throw out a meaty low forward+ low strong+flash kick(old, and new guile).

    You can use low forward+stand strong+flash kick on these characters: Sim, Zangeif,
    Sagat, T-hawk, Bison. This only works with Old Guile.

    I was going to call it the Bradford combo, I'd rather give Thomas the credit.
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    why does it only work with old guile?
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    why does it only work with old guile?

    mainly because, the stand strong does not link off of the low foward with new guile, however low strong is still linkable.
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Why is this? I thought old and new guile have the same low forward and stand strong.
  • The DudeThe Dude Joined: Posts: 72
    Actually this is a known OG-combo. Apart from Thomas Osaki, there were people like Tomo and Jeff Schaefer doing it back in the day. I think Jeff invented it.

    *klick me*

    He even tried it against Daigo, but messed up the timing due to AE being faster than HF.
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    I know of the combo, I just didnt think there was an obstacle to doing it with new guile. and if there is, I would think it would also apply to old guile in ST.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Actually this is a known OG-combo. Apart from Thomas Osaki, there were people like Tomo and Jeff Schaefer doing it back in the day. I think Jeff invented it.

    *klick me*

    He even tried it against Daigo, but messed up the timing due to AE being faster than HF.

    Thats true I did learn the low foward+stand strong+flash kick from Jeff Schaefer when I faced against him at family fun in LA days after he played Daigo.
    He's a really cool dude btw, hes not a dick like some other pros that I have talked to.

    btw: although this is irrelvent to ST, in SF4 Guile can still do meaty low forward+low strong+ flash kick as Jason Cole(A-dhalsim) reported to me.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I know of the combo, I just didnt think there was an obstacle to doing it with new guile. and if there is, I would think it would also apply to old guile in ST.

    No brian, for some reason old guile can link the standing strong off of a low forward, but new guile can't.

    Try it on an emu st on your computer using new guile against sim or zangief.
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    No brian, for some reason old guile can link the standing strong off of a low forward, but new guile can't.

    Try it on an emu st on your computer using new guile against sim or zangief.

    I havent tested it, but ok if this is true, why is this? Is old guiles low forward actually better? I didnt think that was the case.

    Is old guiles standing or low strong better? That would also be surprising.
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    brian wrote:
    I rarely try to throw after a blocked sonic boom... the risk/reward just isnt there. On the other hand following a sonic and then throwing after ducking for a sec to make them block, or just doing the throw at awkward suprising times is ok once in a while.

    I actually like these sequences, holding off on "aggressive" or "random" throws, having a background pattern of using "punishing" throws makes the former two's likeliness less likely.

    Is this all there is to the Ryu match?
    What about how it changes when he has meter?
    Do you refrain from booms all the time? Or try to achieve a range where you can throw one and he'll try to blast through it with his super on reaction?
    Guess what I'm trying to say is how do you go about baiting it? Or is the answer "You don't,"
    and you're left with just jumping his regular hadoken's until he tries something else?
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    I don't really understand what you mean. Why would you refrain from throwing sonic booms when he has meter?

    When Ryu has meter I mostly stop trying to poke and almost exclusively throw sonic booms (as well as counter his attempts to get in). Remember that if you're throwing sonic booms from across the screen and Ryu jumps forward over one, you should insta jump towards roundhouse him.

    Throw sonic booms from a distance. If he does a super you recover in time. The loss of inputs during a super flash will prevent you from throwing a boom at a time where the super would actually be able to hit you.

    If he throws a super, block it if you have no choice, but otherwise jump back or jump straight up to avoid the chip.
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    guess I lost my mind with that question. yesterday was a really screwy one at work.
    Grand theft auto, domestic violence, attempted suicide. What a day.
    to be honest I don't know what I meant either.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • cursedDicecursedDice Joined: Posts: 39
    I came across a stash of good Guile vs. Ryu action on YouTube. A total of 20 matches in all. I've watched the first 8, and its tied 4-4 (I'm rooting for Guile, notice how this wasn't posted in the Ryu thread...hehe). These aren't my videos and obviously, its not me playing.

    You can find the first match here. Look through u1yutty's videos to find the other 19.

    The videos don't identify the players, but they play at a high enough level to be useful. Lots of safe jumping attacks by the Ryu player keeping the Guile off his flashkick, and other good high level stuff for this particular matchup.

    I hope you enjoy these and remember, root for Guile or go home and be a family man! :wgrin:

    *edit*
    Just finished watching the set of 20, and by my count it came out a tie, 10/10. The finale (match 20) was a great finishing match.
  • ToyRobotTerrorToyRobotTerror Magnificent Bastard Joined: Posts: 2,078
    what basics do i need to practice if want to learn guile?
    Fuck skrulls
  • cursedDicecursedDice Joined: Posts: 39
    The #1 basic rule for Guile is Always Be Charging (ABC). This rule will allow you to throw sonic booms more often, and will leave you charged for a flashkick to knock anyone out of the sky.

    This can go to extremes, meaning every time you jump, you immediately start charging again (as in, when you play Guile, you jump motion is really forward-up > down back to start charging again, before you even see Guile jump on screen).

    Another example of 'advanced' charging is making your sonic boom motion; charge back > forward > back + punch button. You have to be really fast, but if done right, it will give you an extra few frames of charging for you next boom/kick.

    Practice this from the beginning when starting to play Guile.

    The next thing I would practice is throwing a sonic boom (preferably with the method described above) and then do one of Guile 2 kicks that advance him on the screen (f + short or roundhouse) WITHOUT losing your sonic boom charge. This has to be done be moving the joystick from down-back to back without going to neutral. If done correctly you can sonic boom immediately after coming out of the kick's animation. If the spacing is right, after the kicks, you can mix it up by throwing or doing low foward instead of doing sonic booms.

    I will post some more stuff to practice in a bit or you can ask some questions. Hope you find this helpful.
  • ToyRobotTerrorToyRobotTerror Magnificent Bastard Joined: Posts: 2,078
    Maybe not that basic but thanks anyway
    Fuck skrulls
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    First lesson on how to play Guile:

    1. Throw sonic boom

    2. If they jump in from far away, make them land on a low forward, then return to step 1.

    3. If they jump in from close, do a deep low fierce. If it wins or trades, return to step 1. If it loses, throw them.

    4. If they do not jump, return to step 1.

    From there you have to counter their character specific attempts to get around this algorithm.

    General note: Unless they are jumping in alot, dont try to use flashkick as anti air so much. That is to say, dont wait to see if they jump, just throw sonic booms over and over. Your attitude should be: "go ahead, jump over a sonic boom, I couldnt care less". Of course then you have to counter their jump in properly.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    cursedDice - Nekohashi vs. Suzuki.
    u1yutty is, like, Nekohashi's alternate nick or something.
  • boogiepopboogiepop Joined: Posts: 12
    Hi, this my first post here.
    I'm a rank amateur and a buddy of mine keeps using Ken and attacking me relentlessly. I'm cool with that but the thing that gets me is when he seems to be wide open and something goes horribly wrong. For example:

    Ken has me in the corner and does a fierce dragon punch which I block. I then wait for him to land and go to throw him. I get thrown instead.

    I jump in kick him and he throws me before I can follow up on it.

    Thanks in advance for any and all help guys! The stuff I've seen here so far has been quite informative. :)
  • shortpitched713shortpitched713 Waiting for SSIVTHDR Joined: Posts: 177
    Hi, this my first post here.
    I'm a rank amateur and a buddy of mine keeps using Ken and attacking me relentlessly. I'm cool with that but the thing that gets me is when he seems to be wide open and something goes horribly wrong. For example:

    Ken has me in the corner and does a fierce dragon punch which I block. I then wait for him to land and go to throw him. I get thrown instead.

    I jump in kick him and he throws me before I can follow up on it.

    Thanks in advance for any and all help guys! The stuff I've seen here so far has been quite informative. :)

    Guile's throw range sucks. Most of the time you're best mode of attack is following sonic boom(jab) with attacks to increase effectiveness. Too many options for a defender if hes expecting you to simply jump in.
  • DingoDingo Joined: Posts: 123
    I'm trying to learn Guile as well (trying to get into ST as I have always loved the game but just never played it seriously) and was wondering about some things. As mentioned above I know Guile's throw range is horrible and that you need to follow behind a Sonic Boom if you're planning on jumping in which is usually what I do when the opponent in waking up. Anyway, I guess I'm just wanting some advice on things to do; here's my main strategy to playing Guile:

    - Sonic Boom from a safe distance to see how the opponent is going to react.

    -If they jump in I may do a Flash Kick for anti-air or his toward strong punch (pretty sure that is the uppercut looking one).

    - To apply more pressure I'll use Sonic Booms and his kicks that move him forward (usually forward kick).

    - When the opponent is waking up I throw a Sonic Boom and sometimes jump in for a crossup.

    My problem on the crossup is I can never get the attacks to combo though. I think I remember seeing that a BnB crossup was to jump in with short, land and do a low forward (maybe a low short) into Flash Kick; if I have the combo wrong please let me know. As for my other stuff let me know if I'm doing something that isn't really useful. Thanks.
  • SaDoSaDo Joined: Posts: 295
    stick to his cr.fierce for anti air not his strong.

    since your cross up attempt will most likely be blocked, i like to charge down+back instead of straight down, so if it is indeed blocked you can do crouching strong to standing strong cancled to sonic boom. its safe and puts you at good range to punish a jump in safely or pressure with sonic boom

    or just cross, cr. jab for tick throw, dont overdo it tho
    Currently ranked #1 on XBOX Live HD Remix, both remix mode AND classic (As of 2/07/10)
    XBOX user name - DJRamsey1987
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ken has me in the corner and does a fierce dragon punch which I block. I then wait for him to land and go to throw him. I get thrown instead.
    Ken's dragon punches are tricky because they have so few landing frames. (His have 3 and his super DP only has 2, while Ryu's have 5.) So since the only time you can throw him from the ground is during these landing frames, it's actually really easy to mistime it. I've made the same mistake countless times when I was new and Ken would whiff sky-high with a DP or a super and just throw me when he landed. I've also tried to counter Ken's super with a ground normal and have him land completely behind me. Ouch! :wink:

    Now when I see him DP that high in the air, I try to just immediately jump backwards and slam j.HK for a free hit, which does as much as a teched throw anyway. Or I try to jump up and airthrow him in his way down. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely much more damaging things you can do, but few are as idiot-proof as that as jumping off the ground and avoiding that dicey situation when he's landing, so try it and see how it goes for you. You can save the fancy stuff for later.
    I jump in kick him and he throws me before I can follow up on it.
    If you can't do a combination of attacks when you jump from close in, it means there's too much of a time gap between the attacks, and your opponent is going back to neutral state while standing next to you as you land and can counterthrow you.

    So if there's a gap between your attacks, it either means your jumping attack is hitting too early or your 2nd attack is hitting too late or both. If you're trying to combo, make sure your jumping attack is nice and late and you do it just before you land, and choose a 2nd attack that comes out quickly and has few startup frames. Guile's c.MP, for example, comes out a lot faster than his c.MK, and the former is much easier to combo with off a jumping attack. You want to make sure you do your follow-up attacks immediately after each previous move finishes; each split-second counts.

    It's actually pretty common even for experienced players to attack too early and high up when jumping in and get thrown right as they land, so don't feel too bad about it. Everyone's made that mistake. :tup:
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    I think its also important to note that you should almost never be jumping in for combos with Guile anyway. When I jump over a shoto fireball its from some distance, and I just tag them with the jump kick. I land at a safe distance and either block or continue some attack pattern.

    The only times I jump in for combos are when Ive created some specific set up. For example,

    I jump over a fireball from full screen on reaction (as explained in my earlier post). Many ppl then like to make you block another fireball after you land. If they show you they like to do this, then you can jump forward again right after landing and combo them.

    But this is a rare sort of situation.
  • DingoDingo Joined: Posts: 123
    Thanks for the advice SaDo, and all the other information given to the poster before me is really helping out a lot too.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I think its also important to note that you should almost never be jumping in for combos with Guile anyway. When I jump over a shoto fireball its from some distance, and I just tag them with the jump kick. I land at a safe distance and either block or continue some attack pattern.

    The only times I jump in for combos are when Ive created some specific set up. For example,

    I jump over a fireball from full screen on reaction (as explained in my earlier post). Many ppl then like to make you block another fireball after you land. If they show you they like to do this, then you can jump forward again right after landing and combo them.

    But this is a rare sort of situation.

    Agreed, thats how I play as well.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I like to take advantage of my reflexes and air grab with strong or fierce, mainly against the shoto players. After I air grab I then knee bazooka towards them and throw a jab sonic boom then low forward.

    I love to air grab jab dragon punches with foward kick or roundhouse, which you will have to be really close while pulling a bait game.
  • boogiepopboogiepop Joined: Posts: 12
    Thanks guys! Especially Raisin for your detailed explanation of the situation. That makes complete sense now. I'll let you know how things go. :)
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    air grabbing dragon punches is cute, but its hard to do, and theres no payoff. They can tech the airthrow. Just flashkick and get a knockdown.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    air grabbing dragon punches is cute, but its hard to do, and theres no payoff. They can tech the airthrow. Just flashkick and get a knockdown.
    Yeah, I'm retarded, that's even better/simpler. I forgot too that Guile doesn't have to worry about Ken's super DP coming down behind him, 'cause the flashkick's hitting box is so massive that it hits behind him anyway. :tup:

    Question of my own: What do you do with Guile when your opponent is winning on health by a lot and jumps over your Sonic Boom from close range? I want to cr.HP hit trade, but it's just bringing me one step closer to getting KO'd, no? Am I supposed to just block and hope for the best?
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    In that situation I mostly try to avoid throwing sonics from a range where I'd have to use the crouching HP anti air.

    You could also throw a sonic and do a quick straight up jump roundhouse in anticipation of them jumping (if you do it on reaction you could easily have the same problem of trading).
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Here's a nice tip:

    The crossup low short combos are easier on some characters because the crossup can be done later on them and not whiff.

    This helps alot with the hardest part of the combo, connecting the crossup to the low short.

    Most importantly this works on Dhalsim! It helps alot in this difficult match. If they block the low shorts they open themselves up to throws.
  • boogiepopboogiepop Joined: Posts: 12
    I forgot to ask about Ken's spinning kick. When he does it in the air, he covers way more ground than I'd like him to. What's the best way to punish this? I also have a similar problem when he does it on the ground and passes over me. I feel very unsure about how I should proceed.
    And thanks again guys! This is helping a lot and my last few matches against Ken went a bit better than usual.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I forgot to ask about Ken's spinning kick. When he does it in the air, he covers way more ground than I'd like him to. What's the best way to punish this? I also have a similar problem when he does it on the ground and passes over me. I feel very unsure about how I should proceed.
    And thanks again guys! This is helping a lot and my last few matches against Ken went a bit better than usual.

    Well, all I know is that I use neutral standing roundhouse with old guile. When shoto players go to the other side of after landing from that air huricane kick, I give them that funny kick were it looks like Guile is holding on to something.
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Most importantly this works on Dhalsim! It helps alot in this difficult match. If they block the low shorts they open themselves up to throws.

    Yeah thanks.. JERK!

    LOL....

    But for the record, let it be known, brian pulled of a sick combo! I think other guie players would love to konw this.

    We were playing on nFBA 2.23. It was a last match. IIRC I had a sizable lead in life. However, he scores a knock down (don't remember how), goes for a C/U short>cr.short x2> super........ and NAILS a F*CKING ~85% 8 hit combo.....

    HOLLY SHIT!

    Even though I was the victim... it was so cool! Needless to say brian won....LOL

    GGs! :woot:
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Well thanks for the props. But so far it's like

    Rounds won from landing low short x2 into super: 2

    Rounds lost by attempting low short x2 into super and failing: 114634123 and counting

    I should probably perfect the low short x2 flashkick first before working on the super, but when I see my super meter flashing I just start feeling all warm and fuzzy.
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