Guile thread

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  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Man last night at Keystone II I got my old Guiles ass handed to me by Buktooths(Campbell) Chun li, and he doesnt even play the game causaly nor takes it seriously. He said he is really good at reading people, not to mention he was going extremly faster then any chun li player I played against before.
    And this whole time I thought Thomas Osaki used O.guile against chun, so I ask John Choi that night and he said "Thomas never used old guile against chun, he always used bison"...man was I embarrased. A bunch of peeps in cluding choi, seth killan, james chen watched me lose 15 to nothing. The guy made me look like a ameture.
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    That match is so hard for guile! Ameture or not... it is an up hill battle!
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    Kurahashi seems to do ok vs Chun.
    Daigo did well vs Buk's Chun.
    If anything this game proves that the uphill matchups can be won in serious matches.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Kurahashi seems to do ok vs Chun.
    Daigo did well vs Buk's Chun.
    If anything this game proves that the uphill matchups can be won in serious matches.


    Daigo vs Buks chun

    he was using CE Guile, I have no problem against chun using ce guile, I talking old guile in st
  • ramzaramza hmmm Joined: Posts: 2,481
    Daigo vs Buks chun

    he was using CE Guile, I have no problem against chun using ce guile, I talking old guile in st

    learn how to play st guile then. you probably lost so badly because you never bothered to=/
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  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    no... I am pretty sure Daigo used ST guile. (my annotations are a little rusty but...)
    I remember his super bar maxing out, and I think he even used it for chip IIRC, though its been a while since i watched it. Old Guile's normals are good but I think the crossup, mk and throw softening help him out too much. His super sucks but its good chip and if they jump in stupidly, well, its good anti-air at least.
    Of course if you can land it off crossups and jumpins that's gold.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    The ST Guile vs ST Chun match is close enough to even that you shouldnt worry about it.

    Picking Old Guile against Chun on the other hand, is a horrendous choice. Honestly, picking old Guile is so absurd to me.

    Now all of Chun's throws do 25% damage to you and knock down? No Cross up for the main source of your offense? No super to make her think twice about trying a meaty? No back roundhouse to inch forward safely without overdoing it with the knee lunge? No back+Sobat kick to anti air from a distance?

    Stop trying to pretend that ST is champion edition, cause its not (and thats a good thing).
  • DjisterDjister Supersonic Joined: Posts: 47
    Hello all, this is my first post on SRK (I've been a lurker for years and registered recently).

    I'm trying to get better with Guile and I have a question about projectiles: who should win "fireball competitions" among the characters? I'm having a hard time keeping up with all of them, basically. I figure with Guile's quick recovery, he should have the advantage over any character but O. Sagat, right? Am I doing it wrong? *cue random jpg* I've read that one can charge, then quickly press forward, back + punch to throw a sonic boom while starting another charge, but I can only do it with jab, apparently.

    Sorry if this has already been asked, I didn't find anything using the search engine.

    Thanks for the tips!
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  • KyokujiKyokuji Needlessly Perverted Joined: Posts: 2,926
    Is it necessary to use the :l::r::l::p: method for charge buffering in this? It's a lot harder to do consistently because the input window's a lot shorter in ST than it is in 3S.
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  • Professor JonesProfessor Jones Joined: Posts: 213
    Yeah it's very useful to use that method. Don't worry it seemed very awkward for me at first but now I do it naturally with every charge character. It's worth the hassle, and the good thing is that you can practice it while playing the cpu.
  • Professor JonesProfessor Jones Joined: Posts: 213
    And this whole time I thought Thomas Osaki used O.guile against chun, so I ask John Choi that night and he said "Thomas never used old guile against chun, he always used bison"...man was I embarrased. A bunch of peeps in cluding choi, seth killan, james chen watched me lose 15 to nothing. The guy made me look like a ameture.

    Using Bison against Chun li ? It's a pretty weird choice, I really don't see what particularly interesting things he has against her (quite the opposite actually).

    And don't feel bad for losing against Chun, she's really good and it takes very good knowledge of the matchup to handle her well. Keep testing things and watching videos and eventually you'll figure that out.
  • IcemanIceman Joined: Posts: 1,364
    Using Bison against Chun li ? It's a pretty weird choice, I really don't see what particularly interesting things he has against her (quite the opposite actually).

    And don't feel bad for losing against Chun, she's really good and it takes very good knowledge of the matchup to handle her well. Keep testing things and watching videos and eventually you'll figure that out.

    Bison's J.strongs keep Chun from hopping around with short like a retarded flamingo. Crappy fireball for Bison to move in on. An easier match than O.Guile.

    At least Brian was giving reasons to use N.Guile vs. Chun instead of the ol' "Daigo and Kurahashi can do it, ya CE Guile scrub" rhetoric.
  • Professor JonesProfessor Jones Joined: Posts: 213
    Bison's J.strongs keep Chun from hopping around with short like a retarded flamingo. Crappy fireball for Bison to move in on. An easier match than O.Guile.

    Hem, try using j strong against chunli, and tell me what happened lol. And chunli's fireball is anything but crap. Bison has a really hard time stopping chunli from attacking him and it's also hard for him to get in. I rate this 7-3 in favor of chun.
  • IcemanIceman Joined: Posts: 1,364
    Hem, try using j strong against chunli, and tell me what happened lol. And chunli's fireball is anything but crap. Bison has a really hard time stopping chunli from attacking him and it's also hard for him to get in. I rate this 7-3 in favor of chun.

    I tried and I was half wrong. They trade. If Bison can hit her foot with his fist, he wins. If chun is above him, he loses. But Bison can stuff her with jump straight up roundhouse (or strong) and she can do the same with jump up short. Hardly 7-3 match since the only thing Chun has on Bison is a reversal to escape his crap, while he has to have super before he can reversal out of hers. Easier than O.Guile vs. Chun I would think.
  • Professor JonesProfessor Jones Joined: Posts: 213
    I tried and I was half wrong. They trade. If Bison can hit her foot with his fist, he wins. If chun is above him, he loses. But Bison can stuff her with jump straight up roundhouse (or strong) and she can do the same with jump up short. Hardly 7-3 match since the only thing Chun has on Bison is a reversal to escape his crap, while he has to have super before he can reversal out of hers. Easier than O.Guile vs. Chun I would think.

    So Dic has to predict Chun will jump. He risks eating upkicks, followed by some throw/low move mind games and other shit that is very hard for him to deal with.

    What does Chun gets if she jumps and Dic did nothing (the inverse situation) ? She gets a free blocked jump in since Dic can't reliably counter her jumps on the ground, followed by the same mind games I talked above.

    There are many more things I could add, but I will just end by saying : go play against a decent chun with Dic, then think again.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    So Dic has to predict Chun will jump. He risks eating upkicks, followed by some throw/low move mind games and other shit that is very hard for him to deal with.

    What does Chun gets if she jumps and Dic did nothing (the inverse situation) ? She gets a free blocked jump in since Dic can't reliably counter her jumps on the ground, followed by the same mind games I talked above.

    There are many more things I could add, but I will just end by saying : go play against a decent chun with Dic, then think again.

    Yep, thats true I experienced that myself playing buktooth with Bison, really tough match. Infact I asked Thomas at evo 2k2 if he faced against buktooth and he responded while his eyes wide open saying" I hate that guy" meaning he hated his chun. I asked Campbell(buk) about it that day at keystone and he said "yeah I gave Thomas Osaki a really hard time with my chun at a tournament right before the evo 2k2 at svgl".
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Question:

    You have charge for a sonic boom, but for whatever reason, you want to do a backfist ASAP. Whats the best method for doing this without getting a sonic boom instead? Is there a trick to lose your charge or something?
  • comoesacomoesa not too bad.. Joined: Posts: 1,172
    I have been having a hardtime with Ryu fireballs.....



    So basically im decided just to wait for "gaps" in his fireball patterns. Im guessing i should just wait for these gaps and slowly advance keeping a charge.....waiting for ryu to make a move...so i can counter...


    also how do you exactly land a weak kick crossup in general(jumping in crossup,wake up crossup, etc)


    what are the inputs for guiles thows
    FOREVER NEVERMORE
  • Black GuyBlack Guy The black guy Joined: Posts: 25
    I was watching the TZW's recently and I was wondering if anybody had any insight ssto how he is pulling off these crazy combos. I am interested specifically in how he performs a walking sonic boom (ie: sonic boom without charging). I am familiar with the concept of charge partitioning but unless he using some advanced version, I'm really stumped as to how he pulling of these combos. Any help is appreciated:china:
    "I used to play a game called ring a round the rosie but now I play the mic that's why the whole world knows me" - Buck Shot on "Who got the props"
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  • wolf_1wolf_1 Joined: Posts: 169
    can someone explain to me how the vega matchup is easier than vs sim???? i swear the vega matchup is like the ultimate guess game and all vega has to do is just slide and cr.strong all day long.
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Both the sim and vega matchups are hard, Im not sure which one is harder. Though playing as sim in general takes more skill so Id say its easier to come across annoying vegas.

    If vega does nothing but slide and crouching strong from a distance then neither of you takes any damage if you just block. Feel free to block this stuff all day and look for rolls to flashkick. Look for patterns in his poke sequences while you sit there taking no damage, and then counter.

    Btw I dont have access to ST atm, but in response to my own question above, if you do charge back, down towards, towards + fierce as fast as you can, will you get a backfist or a sonic boom?
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I am interested specifically in how he performs a walking sonic boom (ie: sonic boom without charging).
    Which video was this? If it's from SF2:WW, there was a bug where charge special moves would randomly come out 1 in 512 times even if you didn't have charge, so there are some hilariously weird (and impractical) combos possible.
    i swear the vega matchup is like the ultimate guess game and all vega has to do is just slide and cr.strong all day long.
    Not sure if it'll help, but I'll write some of my ideas on this in a week or so when I have more time. I'm sure I could learn a few things from you as well.
    ...if you do charge back, down towards, towards + fierce as fast as you can, will you get a backfist or a sonic boom?
    You get a Sonic Boom. It has to do with the way Super Turbo interprets inputs for special moves. In fact, it's probably not uncommon that people do the sequence you wrote when they're just throwing Sonic Booms normally, because as they whip the stick to forward as fast as they can, they may pull the stick through down-forward for a split second.

    I don't know the answer to your question of how to purposefully lose your charge.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    when i play against a ryu and he jumps over a sonic boom, whats a good anti air against his jf. mk? c. fierce doesn't seem to work. any ideas?
  • Black GuyBlack Guy The black guy Joined: Posts: 25
    Thanks for answering my post Raisin. I was watchnig the TZW video for SSF and SSFT from NKI's website. In the video guile is usually in corner with the opponent. Thanks again
    "I used to play a game called ring a round the rosie but now I play the mic that's why the whole world knows me" - Buck Shot on "Who got the props"
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    when i play against a ryu and he jumps over a sonic boom, whats a good anti air against his jf. mk? c. fierce doesn't seem to work. any ideas?
    I understand your problem, and it's that the c.HP hit trade can be difficult to time correctly. I myself have blown it countless times, haha. But it will work with the proper timing, which will require you to do it fairly late. It is not easy to do consistently.

    So c.HP can bounce his j.MK, but it's probably his j.HK that you should be more afraid of. On the latter, the timing for trading hits with c.HP is stricter, because j.HK has a bigger hitting area. The j.HK also does more damage on the hit trades.

    Sometime soonish I hope to make a graphic which helps people understand how hit-trading with c.HP works, because for the longest time, I did not understand when and why it was getting beat cleanly. Stay tuned...
    Thanks for answering my post Raisin. I was watchnig the TZW video for SSF and SSFT from NKI's website. In the video guile is usually in corner with the opponent. Thanks again
    Hmm... Do you have a direct link to the video? That would probably help people understand the situation a lot better. Not that I'm likely to know the answer, but someone might, haha.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    when i play against a ryu and he jumps over a sonic boom, whats a good anti air against his jf. mk? c. fierce doesn't seem to work. any ideas?

    When Shotos jump over my sonic boom, I'd jump towards them and air throw them with back and Feirce punch, then I would knee thrust and throw a jab sonic boom(this is something that Tomo Ohira would do to shotos). If you plan to use old guile then take a step back and use stand roundhouse or stand foward the funny kick.:cool:
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Rasin is correct. I think the single most important thing to learn as Guile is to time the c. feirce late. It will trade with almost anything.

    Battosai do you really use airthrow as an on reaction anti air against shotos jumping in? I find that hard to imagine..
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    thanx for the tips. ill really work on timing the c. fierce. does guile have any other options though in this situation, some that might be better than c. HP?
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    thanx for the tips. ill really work on timing the c. fierce. does guile have any other options though in this situation, some that might be better than c. HP?

    A quick straight jump up and instantly press roundhouse is also very good from a bit of range. (Do this like a flashkick motion, except without the charge)

    If he's closer you can do the same thing but with a jump back roundhouse or fierce instead of jump up.

    When you can do them, I think these are even better than c. fierce against the shotos.

    IMPORTANT:

    These jump rh anti airs are to be used against opponents who are waiting to see you throw the sonic boom, and then jump in. This means that when they jump, you are already recovered from the sonic boom, and can immediately take to the air as well.

    If they *guess* jump over the boom, then you wont have time to get the jump rh out, and will have to use c. fierce. If they are guess jumping over booms though you should be getting in your fair share of flashkicks, and this is a losing proposition for them.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Rasin is correct. I think the single most important thing to learn as Guile is to time the c. feirce late. It will trade with almost anything.

    Battosai do you really use airthrow as an on reaction anti air against shotos jumping in? I find that hard to imagine..

    Yes Brian I do, but it depends on distance and when they jump. Here is an example of how exacly I play agianst shotos...which I copied from Watson before this vid came out.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=RgVUUHU84YU Mike Watson vs Eric Choi

    Mike Watson vs Jesse Howard SSF2 world tournament back in 1994



    Believe it or not Brian, I have very quick reflex's and this is the way I play. My weakness( Atenntion Deficit Disorder), however; is having trouble adapting to how my opponents change their strategy randomly.
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Yes Brian I do, but it depends on distance and when they jump. Here is an example of how exacly I play agianst shotos...which I copied from Watson before this vid came out.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=RgVUUHU84YU

    Believe it or not Brian, I have very quick reflexs and this is the way I play. My weakness( Atention Deficit Disorder), however; is having trouble adapting to how my opponents change their strategy randomly.

    Well, looks hard, and ST is even faster than hyper fighting. Good job if you can do it.
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Thanx, yeah it can be a lot of work at times, especially agianst this one guy I know who plays a hit and run old ryu...
  • comoesacomoesa not too bad.. Joined: Posts: 1,172
    Anyone have tips for keeping gief out.


    Im guessing just to use the b+k's but when they can easily jump into my face and i guess i use croucching fierce in this situation???
    FOREVER NEVERMORE
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Sometime soonish I hope to make a graphic which helps people understand how hit-trading with c.HP works..
    Anti-AircHPexplained.png

    I used Ryu's j.HK in this example, since it's a common and important move that you should know how to counter with c.HP, but this works against lots of stuff. Many characters have their entire repertoire of jumping attacks stopped by this defense.
    Anyone have tips for keeping gief out... when they can easily jump into my face and i guess i use croucching fierce in this situation???
    Yep, absolutely right. This is because if he ever jumps at you from closer in and you block, you are probably about to eat a command throw. So don't block! What helps me sometimes is after every Sonic Boom I throw against him from medium range or closer, I try to remind myself to have my finger hovering over the HP button in case he jumped and I need to bounce him away immediately after recovering. None of his jumping attacks can get past your c.HP, and you get some breathing room even if you ended up slightly losing the damage trade.

    As for your larger question (how to keep Zangief away from you), I'll wait and see if Brian has any tips on that, since he's much better at that match than I am. (Speaking of Brian, you should listen to what he has to say, because I think he's one of the best players in the USA and one of the best state-side players you've probably never heard of.) But yes, the c.HP will be one of the keystones of your defenses.
  • GoryusGoryus Joined: Posts: 232
    Question:

    You have charge for a sonic boom, but for whatever reason, you want to do a backfist ASAP. Whats the best method for doing this without getting a sonic boom instead? Is there a trick to lose your charge or something?

    Didn't see an answer to this, so: do it like a super (b, f, b, f + hp). No sonic boom, even if you do it really really fast.

    Same trick is used to combo st.mp xx super with Chun and Dee Jay.
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  • wolf_1wolf_1 Joined: Posts: 169
    omg raisin!!! you win the internets



    edit:

    oh yea i've sorta got a question for everyone.

    out of these following characters:
    honda
    gief
    balrog (boxer),
    who do you find the easiest to zone out?

    in my case if i had to put them from easiest to hardest, the order for me would be rog, honda, and gief.
  • brianbrian Joined: Posts: 765
    Hmm, zangief..

    The general idea like with most matchups is to throw a million sonic booms :). I use mostly fierce ones because then if he lariats through one, you dont get caught with a boom on the screen, enabling you to throw another one right away.

    If you see or predict a lariat, walk towards him and low forward it if you are in range for this. After the low forward you will be without charge and relatively close to gief. Just back sobat kick a couple times to get away again.

    The crouching fierce anti air to beat guess jumps, and the straight jump up roundhouse to beat reaction jumps works the same as for Ryu in my post above.

    If gief does get in and youre playing someone good, dont bother trying to flash kick their safe jumps. If youre mid screen in this situation, just accept the fact that they get a free SPD on you and move on. Otherwise you'll just die giving them free damage.

    If youre in the corner and you have no choice but to do something, you can take the safe jump hit, and try to flashkick later in the sequence.

    Generally, piano method to get reversals every time is a must.

    Low forward is good to keep him out.

    You can actually attack gief pretty well with towards sobat kick.

    Goryus, nice job on coming up with an answer to my question. It might take too long to do that motion though, not sure if it will be useful. The main reason I want to be able to do this is to punish whiffed dragon punch moves, most notably kens because it recovers so fast. Actually you can see exactly what I want to do in the Watson video Battosai posted. Doing the back forward back forward motion might not let you hit the dragon punch in time, Im not sure.

    Wolf, Rog is definitely the hardest of those characters to keep out... I assume you have trouble with gief and honda?
  • comoesacomoesa not too bad.. Joined: Posts: 1,172
    Wow, thanks for the info Raisin and Brian. Just as thought,sonicboom, c.hp, crouching forward and if they do get in and knock you down reversal flash kick...the only part i need to work on.....


    Also any tips vs bison. Ive looked at some vids, they mostyl seem to be doing what i doing, and mostly getting beat :(



    I Thinking using jumping roundhouse/fierce when bison tries to stomp(or fakes), but this still isnt enough
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  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Also any tips vs bison. Ive looked at some vids, they mostyl seem to be doing what i doing, and mostly getting beat :(



    I Thinking using jumping roundhouse/fierce when bison tries to stomp(or fakes), but this still isnt enough

    Comosea: If your quick enough to react to his head stomp you can air grab it with feirce punch as soon as you see him lift off the ground, that what I do besides what the two counters you mentioned above. Or if the bison player begins his head stomp, quickly hit down and he will miss you and go to the other side of the screen.

    If he jumps with forward kick or roundhouse, I would either use standing roundhouse(old Guile)standing neutral forward kick and then I would flip towards him imediatlely with short kick + c.jab+boom and then low forward if they block it (if not use a flash kick after that c.jab instead of the boom) and if he jumps after that use c.fierce. Or another tactic I do when high jumpers like bison or chun, is I would knee thrust to escape their jumpins or cross up attempts, this works great when you are stuck in the corner. Another option is to sac throw his jumping forward kick.

    One more tip against zangief, if he jumps with roundhouse or medium kick right your face(I dont mean on top of your head either) quickly hit stand jab, and it will cancel it out.:cool:
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Also any tips vs bison. Ive looked at some vids, they mostyl seem to be doing what i doing, and mostly getting beat :(

    from the matches i watch and personal experience, i find guile to be a serious advantage against dic.(bison).

    they main thing against dic. is to throw sonic booms. it takes away his psycho crusher and scissors, forcing him to either turtle or take to the air with his stomp or psycho reverse. without dic's dangerous ground game, life is a lot easier for guile. it makes dic. more predictable, and easier to anticipate.

    viable anti air's are flashkicks, from a simple jump in and also if bison lands a stomp while youre in crouch you can immediatle flashkick once he retreats. if he jumps over an s.b. c.fierce if he is directly above you, or forward+fierce if he jumps towards you from a distance. if you feel like playing offensively you can meet him air to air with jf.fierce which has decent priority in the air.

    and dont forget to cross him up when you have the chance. dic has one of the widest hit boxes in the game.

    here is a vid that might help explain what im talkin about.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=iU6gMH6OThs
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