Balrog Thread

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  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256
    After the whole super? This seems to be some effect of lag, or maybe it is shun joker who has the game genie! I have tried that by simulating 30 Hz turbo and not only it hasn't worked, but Rog recovered and had enough time to complete his crouching animation. The frame data agrees with this result.

    Yeah, after the whole blocked super. There are some matches on youtube between me and Shun and you can see him doing it on me. I think you have to walk in a tiny step and then sweep but I'm not sure. Shun gets it on me almost every time though.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I'll look for it. Thanks for the reply, man!
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    After the whole super? This seems to be some effect of lag, or maybe it is shun joker who has the game genie! I have tried that by simulating 30 Hz turbo and not only it hasn't worked, but Rog recovered and had enough time to complete his crouching animation. The frame data agrees with this result.

    Frame data suggests Ryu can sweep the after the second to last punch if it's with straights.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256


    Here's the vid. You can clearly see Shun sweeping me after the full blocked super at 4:45. Frame data is great and all but that's not the end all, be all as you can see. :)
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714


    Here's the vid. You can clearly see Shun sweeping me after the full blocked super at 4:45. Frame data is great and all but that's not the end all, be all as you can see. :)

    Is this re-producible offline? Is he able to do it anywhere on stage? It doesn't seem like he needs to walk forward at all, although that may change with the spacing on the super.
  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256
    Ryu is able to do it anywhere on stage and it works offline too. .Not sure how Shun is able to do it so consistently, though...
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Ryu is able to do it anywhere on stage and it works offline too. .Not sure how Shun is able to do it so consistently, though...

    I'll be sure to try that against you offline next time then. I'm curious as to how easy it is to perform this reliably in a match. When I used to try it against Rogs, I usually end up eating a headbutt.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Afro, I have double-clicked the play button so as to try to get the exact position your character was getting tripped. The position your Rog was looked like this:
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/File:Balrog_hb7.png
    This is not a frame that is part of Rog's super. The last frames from that move are
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/File:Balrog_superf10.png
    and
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/File:Balrog_superf11.png
    Also, I noticed from another video of you against shun joker that you favored cr.Strong after the super, heavily. Like, almost every time you did a super, you tried a cr.Strong after it. Are you sure you were not using it without even giving it a thought anymore, since it is usually a safe move? Else, then it must be some bug - which is not something really abnormal in this game - or the lag. Or lost inputs*, which have been common to me, somehow, sice GGPO's last update, and have always been a bit common with Supercade.

    For the record, I did not really just check the frame data, I tried using an emulator and pressing cr.RH every other frame while Ryu was blocking the super. See: emulators have, so far, gave us the closest results which are observed with a real board - better than any console ST port out there, definitely.

    *DOWN and BACK are different inputs. Online, it may happen that DOWN is read, and BACK isn't. So you stand there thinking you are safe, and you are not.

    Edit: fuck, the image commands do not work, so I will just replace them with the real links.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    That might be like a GGPO meme glitch. On arcade the super doesn't stop that close to you after its done.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I agree that this may not be a consistent thing offline. Ryu being able to sweep after blocking Rog's Super is huge, and I'm sure that we would see a lot more Japanese players using this in those Gamespot vids. I can't say for sure if it's possible, and I know afrolegends is maybe the best Rog player ever, so I'm not sure what to make of this.

    Edit: it might also be possible that due to spacing, Rog's Super maybe slowing down a little after the last hit, allowing Shun Joker to sweep. I've seen Rog hit out of his Super at every possible hit in the Super cuz of the "slow down" bug, including just before the last hit. Maybe this is a variation on this bug.
  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256
    I was definitely not doing a cr. strong after the super. It looked like he swept me before I could even go to crouching block position.

    Edit: So I asked osaka-pizza on GGPO if it was possible and this was his response...

    <osaka-pizza> There is a timing ,ryu can hit ↓strong k
    <osaka-pizza> I do not understand the exact timing
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    That would mean that if I time it right, I should be able to spd rogs super with hawk too. Because hawks spd range is the same as ryu's sweep.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    It may be that the listed frame data shows Ryu's the sweep starting up 1 frame slower than it really is. Then the punish works with reversal timing. (In HDR, Ryu's sweep starts in 3 frames.)
    I'm too lazy to look through the video to check, but another possibility is that it's a 50% unblockable like Ken's point-black fierce SRK.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    That would mean that if I time it right, I should be able to spd rogs super with hawk too. Because hawks spd range is the same as ryu's sweep.

    Hawk is wider than Ryu, so pushback may be different. That said, Boxer's fastest normal has 3 frames of start-up, and the super is, theoretically, -4 on block - so, as long as you stay out of Boxer's throw range there should be a 7 frame window where you can safely walk toward him while releasing negative edge SPDs.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    50% unblockable like Ken's point-black fierce SRK.

    WHAT?!?!? explain this? so if ken is face to face and fierce dps, there is 50% chance that you can't block it? or is there a special setup?
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    Ah shit..    
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  • SteveTrenSteveTren RYU Ph.D Joined: Posts: 999
    WHAT?!?!? explain this? so if ken is face to face and fierce dps, there is 50% chance that you can't block it? or is there a special setup?
    It's only 50% unblockable if opponent tries to block at the same time as Ken's DP. It you are already blocking you will block it 100% of the time.
    GGPO: stevetren
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    In case u guys missed it, this is a must watch:
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • SotoSoto The un-safe jump master. ~FrankieSnow~ Joined: Posts: 244
    1:36 oO
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    That would mean that if I time it right, I should be able to spd rogs super with hawk too. Because hawks spd range is the same as ryu's sweep.
    is the mystery already solved? its seems to me that to be able to sweep Rog is more related to the mix up of stand/crouch blocking mix up

    cuz this is so true for Zangief, if I want to SPD Rog at the end of his super, I need to block high, if I keep blocking when crouch, I wont be able to grab him

    Shun looks like trying to reversal dp each rush( in case it pauses) n one side effect is that either:
    1)Rog travels further towards Ryu after the last hit, or
    2)Ryu somehow shortens the pushback going from stand position to crouching

    it might be the collision boxes(yes, those ones that seem useless) r wider when Ryu is crouching, Shun takes advantage of it, so he blocks the last hit in crouch, but immediately stands up so he both wins frame advantage(1 frame?) of blockstun, but since the standing collision box is smaller, Rog ends up a few pixels near to Ryu, enough for giving him the extra range n frame(s?) needed to sweep him before the super's recovery.

    its just my theory, which is better than thinking shun joker uses a game genie or some GGPO glitch( those GGPO glitches belong to me LO0l XD )
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    1:36 oO
    Yeah, wtf?!
    Roald Dhalsim
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    1:36 oO
    Yeah, wtf?!

    He's mashing st.jab as fast as he can, with good timing, so that he doesn't change his stance in-between each jab. While he's doing that, he's holding one of the down positions to charge his headbutt, so that when he stops hitting st.jab, he can perform a headbutt.



    At 4:15 you can start to see Afro attempting to do it, and messing up a couple of times, but he got it going on like the third try.
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    Wow, didn't even know that was possible.
    Roald Dhalsim
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Wow, didn't even know that was possible.

    It's similar in theory to how Old and New Guile is able to mash st.short while maintaining charge for a sonic boom or flash kick. It's a fun little trick, fairly difficult to execute, but it can often bait your opponents into jumping at you, since they see that you don't have the flash kick charged anymore.
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    Hm, now that I think of it, at X-Mania this year Yaya showed us a fucked up combo with Guile where he did nothing but standing moves into super. Guess he was using the same trick... I don't think anyone was recording when he did that. (He just showed it, it wasn't during an actual match)
    Roald Dhalsim
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    Hm, now that I think of it, at X-Mania this year Yaya showed us a fucked up combo with Guile where he did nothing but standing moves into super. Guess he was using the same trick... I don't think anyone was recording when he did that. (He just showed it, it wasn't during an actual match)

    No, this trick is different. Standing moves into super involve specific buffering, for example Ryu st.HP->super. Whereas standing headbutt for Rog just involves mashing st.LP and then going really fast to crouch position whilst kara'ing a light kick and then resuming the mashed LP.
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

    www.youtube.com/Guoguodi
    GGPO Handle: Gizzle
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Hm, now that I think of it, at X-Mania this year Yaya showed us a fucked up combo with Guile where he did nothing but standing moves into super. Guess he was using the same trick... I don't think anyone was recording when he did that. (He just showed it, it wasn't during an actual match)

    It's not really a trick, it's just quickly going into the special/super motion while you perform a standing normal. It's like how guile is able to do st.fierce x flashkick. It requires some pretty fast hands to charge as quickly as possible and solid timing. Basically as you do the flash kick motion, you press a normal as you pass the neutral position on the joystick, and then quickly move up to do the move.

    Or if you're talking about how like Ryu and Fei are able to do st.HP xx super, they just buffer the motion while doing a st.hp. Requires some pretty fast hands and good timing as well, but there's no weird trick to it.
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    quote

    No, the thing was he didn't just do one standing normal before the super, but several. I can't remember the combo though. Other people saw it, maybe Fulaani knows, I'll ask him some time soon.
    quote

    Thanks for explaining there's a kara'd light kick in there, Boggleminds.
    Roald Dhalsim
  • Shin AkumaShin Akuma "History is to ascribe the American Revolution to THOMAS PAINE." ― John Adams Joined: Posts: 1,637
    Just a tip for anyone who's having trouble countering crossups.... wakeup super works pretty well. If it's blocked, at least you're safe and you will do chip damage to boot.

    Rog's super is basically a "get out of jail free card". It's possible to activate it whenever you want, in any situation. I use it all the time on wakeup to counter meaty jump-ins. If it's blocked, at least it will keep you at a safe distance.

    For shoto's who like to do c.rh xx hadouken, it's possible to super immediately after c.rh is blocked and super through the fireball.

    If your opponent is in the corner and you grab him, you can do a Jab Dash Punch as they're falling. You will basically switch places and you can cancel into super from the opposite side. Most people will still be blocking the same way when you dash punch to the opposite side, leaving them open to eat a super.

    Rog's super can also punish blocked Psycho Crushers. You can counter super, mid-Psycho Crusher. This follows the same principle as the above tactic. As soon as they go to the opposite side, activate Super. I'm pretty sure Jab Straight works too. Same with far s.rh but it doesn't always work. Dictator's super can be countered in the same way as Psycho Crushers but people usually block it whenever I try. Psycho Crushers are guaranteed to be countered by Rog's Super but I'm not so sure about Dictator's Super.

    Empty headbutt into super is a great tactic for bating shit.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Is it just me, or Tamashima is eating a few Yoga Fires just to build meter in the video below? Looks like he sometimes takes the hit of a Jab Yoga Fire while doing a TAP just so he gets meter fast enough. BTW, we've seen Hakase beating Rog players recently, so this one should probably help Rog players. Not sure Tamashima uses anything amazing, but he just looks extremely solid. He took advantage of most chances of landing the full super, and he got that meter ready relatively early in most rounds.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    It was a great set. It's an interesting strategy, but I don't think it's an efficient idea to eat free damage just to build the super. Why not do what most Rog players do in the Chun right, and just build meter by doing rush uppers?
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    He was trying to trade TAP with yoga fire. His timing was off. Most of the time rog players will try to trade a level 3 TAP for max damage. If the level 3 TAP hits, that usually leaves sim very little life to work with after. But even level 1 or 2 TAP trade goes in rogs favor. Hitting that trade is key in this match for rog to win consistently against sim. Once sim gets scared to throw yoga fires, rog is free to get in dat ass.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • ultracomboultracombo Weakest Loser Joined: Posts: 741
    huh. I always thought the best way to get over yoga was NJ.HP.
    "If ultracombo misses a low roundhouse, he is likely to continue doing it." - TheMuffinMan
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    huh. I always thought the best way to get over yoga was NJ.HP.

    I think it still is, but doesn't build you any meter. It stuffs Sim's st.fw and st.rh, but gets beat by aerial counters and his crouching strong and fierce.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    The point of the TAP isn't to dodge YF, its to trade in rogs favor.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Tsuji would use neutral Fierce, as ultracombo mentioned, but he mixed it up with other things (neutral RH, Jab Headbutt, Fierce Headbutt, jump back and rush). He also jumped forward quite a lot. For comparison:
    Gian (Dhalsim) vs Tsuji (Boxer)
  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256
    Hakase is known as the best sim player in the world but to me, Gian seems way more solid.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    I'm trying to fashion my Sim from both Hakase and Gian. I think Hakase is currently on top of his game right now, whereas I think Gian isn't as active as he used to be in the ST scene as a player. Seems like he's quite happy being a TO.

    But still, can't ignore his dominating performance at Evo during casuals.



    I really wish there was tournament footage of ST at Evo 2k5.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    I think Gian at his prime was the best ST player to ever play the game. I don't think any other player will get that high up in level again. And I'm talking about overall vs every character in ST, no one had as many answers to all the characters in the cast like Gian did.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Couldn't expect less from Tsuji:


    Edit: added new video
  • PointBreak91PointBreak91 Custom costumes for SFV please Cap Joined: Posts: 666
    When I used to try it against Rogs, I usually end up eating a headbutt.

    I hear that. Even with Chun's good throw punish game, I like to sit and crouch-block the super and his follow up (then throw, lol).
    twitch.tv/nyc_vf
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