N Ken Thread

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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    FYI, at the right distanace the the Jab is un-punishable. It will leave ken with a +1 frame advanage. Even if it is a little off, there are no normal moves in the game that are are fast enough to punish the DP at this distance... Even Dhalsims ducking forwards with a 2 frame start up can punish it, b/c ken is pushed to far away.

    This is discussed/shown in the Yoga Book Hyper.

    I'm not positive but I think there may be a couple of setups so that it can't be punished.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    I'm not positive but I think there may be a couple of setups so that it can't be punished.

    Yep.

    At the rigt distance his jab DP is 100% safe.

    Don't get me wrong, if he is in your face, you can punish him afterwards.

    But, if he is perfectly placed, you can't punish him.

    There are tons of videos showing ANTI-KEN , applying pressure this way.

    I will be more than happy to post them up for you. If you like. :tup:
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    I think you misunderstood what I said?

    And do you mean Aniken?
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

    "Well I guess the future is rape and no one can stop it."
  • KuprinKuprin MOOGLE RUSH!!! Joined: Posts: 322
    Yeah, I think he does mean Aniken...I've seen him do it, and it's pretty cool. So it's a spacing thing, got it. I'll have to watch for it more closely.
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    I think you misunderstood what I said?

    And do you mean Aniken?
    Yep AniKen.. My bad. :wgrin:
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • wakeupsweepwakeupsweep Joined: Posts: 124
    Does O. Ken's fierce dp hit on first frame too? Looks like it doesn't to me, but I could be way off.
  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Yes, it does hit on the first frame.
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  • wakeupsweepwakeupsweep Joined: Posts: 124
    Ok, thanks.
  • JoeMastersJoeMasters Awaken ! Joined: Posts: 452
    Thought I could get some facts on this..

    I havent had much comp in ST for awhile but ive been practicing with Ken's knee throw mix-ups/cross-ups/etc. If im crossing somebody up right after the knee throw and they input the DP command, will he turn around and DP or will he DP the opposite way. And of course, are cross-ups really safe? I havent seen any top players cross up after knee throw. All i see are tick throws really.
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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    To answer your first question if the opp. inputs the command f, d, d/away the opp. will "automatically" switch directions and counter your crossup.

    Crossups are effective if you use them when you safe jump. For the most part IMO crossups with N.Ken should be used sparingly, if at all. Knee bash is mostly used with ticks or mix-ups.
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  • JoeMastersJoeMasters Awaken ! Joined: Posts: 452
    Ah ok. I forgot to specify somthing though, these arent jump cross-ups, these are knee throw-> walk on the other side cross-up. Would the DP switch sides automaticlly? Sorry for that ^_^

    Also in corners there are times when I jump in and appear on the other side off the player standing after the knee throw. Are those safe?
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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Ah ok. I forgot to specify somthing though, these arent jump cross-ups, these are knee throw-> walk on the other side cross-up. Would the DP switch sides automaticlly? Sorry for that ^_^

    Also in corners there are times when I jump in and appear on the other side off the player standing after the knee throw. Are those safe?

    Strategy for DP still holds even though you walk under (it's not easy or automatic, you have to time it as a reversal and input the reverse command).

    No, basically they are not safe: The reason that you appear on the other side of your opp. is because you "pass over him" (i.e. you jump in after your first neutral frame with j.Short) while he's in recovery frames he physically doesn't move as far as you do when you jump (in pixels). Whether or not it's safe depends on the character and skill of your opp. Bottom line is it's not safe because the opp. will always land b/f you do (so even if you tried to make a safe jump you couldn't), they'll punish you accordingly if you try.
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  • eruditemodeeruditemode Joined: Posts: 67
    hello all,

    just returned from Mikado where I got served by a purple ken, who I later found out was Matsun. I haven't played against aniken so I can't speak on that subject of who's better, but I can attest to Matsun having the prettiest ken I've ever seen. Its almost scary on what he can do with him. Several game notes:

    1) funk kick glitch. match was O. ryu vs ken, vega stage. Ken wins round by doing cr. strong into funky kick. ryu is killed by the 2nd hit of funky kick. usually the match ends here. BUT NO! ken does another full funky kick (half circle one I believe) and the button is held so that he does the axe finish. If anyone knows how to do this, how this is impossible, and if other characters can do it, I'd love to know. Again, a full funky kick was done AFTER the match was over, ryu completely laying in the waste pile, dead. I am positive that it happened and the player who was victimized also looked up and gave me the "wtf" face. I should have asked him how to do it, but he doesn't look like the social type.

    2) juice kick combo. Even though he didn't land it on me, apparently if you have amazingly fast fingers you can combo a juice kick off the ground by doing jump jab (instant) into juice kick. All three kicks of the juice air hurricane should land, with the jump jab, so 4 total hits. I saw it once in a combo video off sagat, but that was done using an emulator, and this is to be done with human hands. Its difficult enough to do a juice kick, but to add the jump jab in is near impossible. Try it yourself, half the time you can get the combo to work, but the arc of the ensuing Hurricane kick will not be in the juice kick arc.

    3) if you want to play n.ken competitively, master the juice kick. He cannot hold up his own without it in my opinion. ken is also master of the footsies game and is played extremely effectively by freezing opponents with fear of dragon punch. this will allow you to get your knee bash in.

    anyways that's it for now. Just want to say that while he's not the best in the game, n. ken is definitely a really fun character to play with, and there is always something you could be practicing with him (st. fierce to super, juice kick etc).

    also have a question.

    To answer your first question if the opp. inputs the command f, d, d/away the opp. will "automatically" switch directions and counter your crossup.

    I've always wondered about this while playing ken. It seems like sometimes I will do a normal f, d, df +p and ken/ryu will automatically change directions for the dp. But if I read the above statement correctly, it says that you must change the last input to down-back. Can I get a confirmation on this? The reason why I ask is because I've never seen that notation before (and thus I've never attempted it) and yet on some occasions 50% I can get the anti cross up dp to come out just using regular dp notation.

    to clear it up, if I am on 1p side, and I am getting crossed up by 2p jumping over me to the left. I have three choices

    (all notation given as 1p side facing right)
    1) f, d, df
    2) f, d, db
    3) b, d, db (as if it were a 2p dp notation).

    which is the correct notation to get a anti cross up dp (where ken turns and now does a 2p side dp on reverse)
    If anyone could clear this up for me that would be great.

    thanks
  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    If you perform the regular dp motion any time b/f the opp. reaches zero barrier then you won't change directions b/c you've input the command and the game engine is no longer focusing on where the opp. is. The game just executes the move and pays attention to the hit boxes. If you execute it after it breaks zero barrier like a reversal (i.e. as soon as opp. breaks zero barrier execute d/f+P) it will switch sides for you. Any input after time for reversal requires you to hit d/a+P; when you hit down it creates a neutral state for your character [i.e. no matter which side you face you still hold just 1 down] this neutrality creates the opportunity for you to change directions on the DP because the game engine is not focusing on which direction your facing; the game sees you as neutral this gives you more time to execute the DP. I hope this helps.
    1) funk kick glitch. match was O. ryu vs ken, vega stage. Ken wins round by doing cr. strong into funky kick. ryu is killed by the 2nd hit of funky kick. usually the match ends here. BUT NO! ken does another full funky kick (half circle one I believe) and the button is held so that he does the axe finish. If anyone knows how to do this, how this is impossible, and if other characters can do it, I'd love to know. Again, a full funky kick was done AFTER the match was over, ryu completely laying in the waste pile, dead. I am positive that it happened and the player who was victimized also looked up and gave me the "wtf" face.

    For the hcf+k (Roundhouse) coming out after the round here's a possible explanation (it applies to your last question as well):
    1st Conjecture: In order for any move to come out after the match was decided (vitatlity of 1 opp. reaches zero) that must mean there is some time left for input after the opp. dies (if what you say actually happened and wasn't a game engine "brain fart").
    2nd Conjecture: I have no idea what special was used to kill opp. (I assume it was the inside crescent kick qcf+K, canceled into Ax kick/overhead)
    3rd Conjecture/fact: Once you defeat your opp. the game engine ignores the side/direction your opp. is facing. [ex. You're dic and you defeat opp. with H.S. dic will face the same direction (victory stance) no matter which side you decide to land on]
    4th Conjecture: The inside crescent and Rounhouse funky kicks will cross up the opp. if you perform the Ax kick (hold K or tap K again while the special is in motion).

    Very confusing b/c question said Ryu was laying completely on ground (how there could be this many additional input frames/time baffles me).

    Yes the combo you mentioned in #2 is possible w/o emulator, but only works on Sagat, Gief, Hawk b/c they have large hit boxes. Definately master the juice kick; it's Extremely useful. Check my other posts in this thread for more info on Juice Kick.

    to be continued/edited...
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  • Homer PimpsonHomer Pimpson Questionable Joined: Posts: 1,179
    Thanks to all the people who have contributed to this thread. Lots of solid goodness in here. N-Ken for the win.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ShinVega wrote:
    If he input the command f,d/f+Strong,d+K (if he's right beside the opp.) and continues the motion to d/a, a+K the Roundhouse (actual name of kick) will come out. The reason for this is when Ken is right beside an opp. and the opp. crouches the funky kick will cross-up the opp. (goes completely on the other side of the opp.), since Matsun continued the motion to a half circle motion, the second Ken cross-up the opp. (and won the match) the Roundhouse would still come out.
    This is wrong for a variety of reasons. Well, three reasons at least. No, wait, four. Hold it hold it five. Six. Final answer. Six. Possibly seven. I'm going to go with seven.
    1) too far away for funky kick to cross up after crouching strong
    2) wrong funky kick for combos
    3) wrong funky kick for crossing up
    4) forward doesn't count as away. ("right" can sometimes count as both forward and away but not if you aren't holding the joystick there.)
    5) command buffer will have expired way before you get to the second kick button
    6) no funky kick 2 hit combo on ryu if he's crouching
    7) if funky kick crosses up it won't hit (twice) and vice versa

    ShinVega, dude, when you're posting conjecture please identify it as such. You kinda did at the bottom there -- "this will require some testing" -- just move that type of qualifier to the top the paragraph next time ok? You've been posting a lot of great stuff in this subforum but you gotta indicate when you're speculating and when you're writing from experience.
  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    ShinVega, dude, when you're posting conjecture please identify it as such. You kinda did at the bottom there -- "this will require some testing" -- just move that type of qualifier to the top the paragraph next time ok? You've been posting a lot of great stuff in this subforum but you gotta indicate when you're speculating and when you're writing from experience.

    Point Taken, and will be corrected (edited to the best of my abilities/studies).

    The entire second paragraph was from experience, and (mostly) "educated" conjecture.

    --Note: don't try to prove hypothesis on no sleep for 38 hours
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  • KyokujiKyokuji Needlessly Perverted Joined: Posts: 2,926
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UiorkJr6Zgw

    Video of Ken's ground cross-up. It looks like it only works on P1 side.
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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Ken's Inside Crescent (qcf+K) and Roundhouse funky kicks (hcf+K) both have the ability to cross up crouching opp. under certain circumstances when standing right beside them, it works on both sides (with or without ax kick). The reason it crosses up is due to the hit boxes on both specials. The hit box completely hits the opp. on the other side of them causing you to cross up. I'd post the hit box diagram but that would be copy right infringement (it's on pg 15, and 16 of the YBH). The f, df, d+K won't cross up for the same reason.
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  • KyokujiKyokuji Needlessly Perverted Joined: Posts: 2,926
    It actually depends what character you're fighting. It works every time on shotos from the left, but never on the right. I couldn't get it to work on Chun' at all.
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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Sorry,
    Kyokuji. I'll clarify it for every character.
    hcf+K = RH
    qcf+K = IC

    Chun: RH
    RYu: RH
    Honda: RH
    Blanka: RH
    Guile: RH
    T. Hawk: RH hits crouching hawk
    Fei Long: RH
    Boxer: RH hit crouching Boxer
    Sagat: RH hits crouching Sagat
    Ken: RH
    Gief: RH hits crouching Gief
    Sim: RH
    Cammmy: RH
    Dee Jay: RH crosses up; and IC hits crouching Dee Jay
    Claw: RH
    Dic: RH

    This list is only for crouching opp. from both sides (I'm using AE so I don't know if that has anything to do with why you can't do it from the right for shotos). I've spent a few hours learning exactly how just the RH cross up works and this is what I've come up with.

    Let me define cross up. A "cross up" is any time you cross your opp. center of gravity right on the opposite side. An "actual cross up" is when your character changes to the opposite side of the opp. and stays there.

    I did these specifically to answer the question about side problems with shotos.
    1P/2P = opp. is on side stated.

    There are 2 ways you can cross up a shoto. You can jump in and press away, dn/away, land+dn, dn/twds, twds + hold K *you don't have to hold K on all of them*. You can also input the command extremely fast so that Ken does not move away from Ryu at all (the timing is similar to that of a s.720, and yes 1 pixel can/does matter). Both lead to the same results as follows:

    1. Ryu is standing.
    2P
    Ken crosses up Ryu.
    1P
    Ken actual crosses up Ryu.

    2. Ryu is Jumping
    2P
    Ken crosses up Ryu
    1P
    Ken actual crosses up Ryu

    3. Ryu is waking up.
    2P
    Ken actual crosses up Ryu.
    1P
    Ken crosses up Ryu

    4. Ryu walks twds Ken.
    2P
    Ken crosses up Ryu.
    1P
    Ken actual crosses up Ryu.

    I hope someone will test this again and give me any useful input. I hope this helps clear things up a little. I'm doing the cycle of tests for all characters and will post it as soon as I'm done. I've tried to make it easy as possible but post any problems/questions/comments/help/suggestions etc.
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Testing..
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Nohoho - ShinVega is saying Ken can crossup a crouching opponent from either side. Are you saying that Ken cannot?

    BTW - The video you posted has already been addressed on page 4.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    What I'm saying is: deez nuts.
  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    What I'm saying is: deez nuts.

    Suck on them.
    Ok, thanks guys, I'll remember that stuff. I got more questions.

    Can Ryu juice kick too? If so, that is lame. Seems like he really got the better end of the bargain in this game, he got forward+MP, forward+HP, Shinkuu Hadoken, and better fireballs then Ken. What does Ken have over Ryu besides KNEE BASH?
    How does Ken combo his hurricane kick out of air normals? Such as jumping jab -> hurricane kick. I can't do it! Is there any special timing to it?

    Concerning the Ryu juice kick - you can see it performed 23 seconds into this vid:
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

    "Well I guess the future is rape and no one can stop it."
  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    ShinVega - Please don't touch the wiki. Your info is bad. I just fucking can't be bothered to debunk it (fatboy, try some of these -- like crossing up Blanka with hcf+k. See for yourself that dude is confused.) but here's a video from Mr. Bentoudairi showing how it don't cross up from both sides:
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UiorkJr6Zgw

    I've only posted 2 things in the wiki and both are useful and correct. They are not assumptions. You need to learn how to read everything and not just what you want to see (I've posted several things in this forum and you're the only person that replies negatively, instead of just giving a reply). I stated in my post that it wasn't finished. You must have no life because you have plenty of time to criticise others instead of giving useful help. GROW UP!

    Enough of your posts here are negative and a waist of time for me to read.

    Au Revoir
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  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Ok, thanks guys, I'll remember that stuff. I got more questions.

    Can Ryu juice kick too? If so, that is lame. Seems like he really got the better end of the bargain in this game, he got forward+MP, forward+HP, Shinkuu Hadoken, and better fireballs then Ken. What does Ken have over Ryu besides KNEE BASH?
    How does Ken combo his hurricane kick out of air normals? Such as jumping jab -> hurricane kick. I can't do it! Is there any special timing to it?

    I wouldn't say that Ryu's "Juice" Kick works better than Ken's does. Ryu would use it to move quickly...and possibly crossup someone for a...*knockdown*. Ken, meanwhile, gets combos galore from his version simply because his Hurricane Kick doesn't knock down. Check out the TZW Combo FAQ and the madness that ensues when Ken corners Sagat. (Did NKI cover this in his combo/shenanigans video, as well?)

    As far as interrupting their jumping moves, I've interrupted jumping jab and the very first frame of jumping straight up roundhouse. You have to interrupt them both at the very first instance that they hit. Keep practicing. It's really not that hard.

    I hope they bring back those kicks for SF4. :) Or...maybe just the floaty air HK that Ken had...you know...the one that would hit Sagat four times if you started it right after Ken passed the apex of his jump. :)
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    How useful is the juice kick in a real match though? I hardly ever see it. I can do cross-up AHKs, shortx2xxsuper, j.jabxj.AHK and have learned his kneebash craziness, but this "juice kick" is giving me problems not only in execution but also in implementation.
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    How useful is the juice kick in a real match though?

    In top tier play, it is one of his main tools to make him competitive. It gives him a tool to get around many fireball zones more quickly and efficiently that any thing else can do.

    A great example would be against zoning Sim who is just at the end of jump range, if you juice Kick over a fireball your arc will go right over many of Sim's AA normals (that would hit a regular jump) and land right before Sim recovers and get a knee bash.

    Looking for a vid of this... Will post when I find one!

    Maybe Nohoho can throw you a bone here, if he knows of one of his head. But you may need to pray :pray:... and sacrifice a goat :devil: ..... I think that has been the standard protocal in the past...
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    The only problem with the juice kick is difficulty of execution. Even guys like Matsun mess it up sometimes and usually results in a giant floaty air hurricane.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    The only problem with the juice kick is difficulty of execution...

    No joke.
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  • KyokujiKyokuji Needlessly Perverted Joined: Posts: 2,926
    Yeah, the reason you don't see it much is that it's hard to do consistently.
    Like they said, if you mess it up, you're wide open.
    "Getting herpes on your face is not a cost-saving solution."
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I have major problems pulling it off. I can do it sometimes. The easiest time to do it is after a hit fireball (because of the slowdown). I've seen Mattsun do it against a Dhalsim player right at the end of a match once when he was basically down and out and looking for a homerun. I guess I will go back to practicing it. I hope in HDRemix, he will be good enough to not need to use such a move to be competitive.
  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Here's some help for the juice kick. IMO it always helps to know the exact timing required to execute a move. The easiest way to get the timing down is to tap up, then very quickly perform HK motion (if you do it too slow it will fly up high like a helicopter, if you perform it correctly it will make a very small parabola/rainbow and it will be very fast) this is easy to do consistently IMO. Use the same timing only pressing up+twds. In order to escape extremely quickly input d, d/a, a+K, up/twds this will make you fly across the screen away from your opp. (this isn't as difficult to perform). Juice kicks are worth practicing (if you really want to spend the time required to master), I use them occasionally.

    Also, posted revision of:
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4624750&postcount=102

    This should put to rest the cross up question. If not please let me know why and I would love to fix it and get it right.

    fatboy hope this helps...
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    fatboy hope this helps...

    Thank you kind sir!:wgrin:
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Thanks for the info., ShinVega.
  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    You can do the outside crescent kick by pressing twds, up/twds, up. I don't know if anyone else knew about that.
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  • TheRealO.GKenTheRealO.GKen Joined: Posts: 248
    Someone should post a youtube video of someone "consistently" doing juice kicks. I wonder if it matters if its done on a P360 or not.
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  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    I just started picking up N-Ken. It seems like he has some weaknesses, but if you can get some shenanigens going then the character matchups don't matter. :tup:
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  • wakeupsweepwakeupsweep Joined: Posts: 124
    Since Ken talk goes here, I thought I'd answer in this thread.

    I opened kawaks and made a short short super macro

    ~d,,,d4,~d,d4,,,,,,,,,,,,,d,df,f,d,df,f4,1 (turbo 0, I couldn't get the 2 cr. shorts to combo at the other speeds)

    While I'm no expert and I'm sure there's other ways to write that macro, it does work.
    Now, I tried replacing f4 with df4 (open kawaks' faqs.txt if you don't know what f4, 1, etc mean), adding another frame before the super motion and some other stuff, but I always got 3 cr.shorts and no super.
    I wouldn't consider that a reliable test to be honest, take it as a starting point if you want.
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