Honda thread

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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    I have been using Honda since his first appearance in sf2. I can talk for hours about his matchups, but i do not have the time here to do so. By far we all know his tough matchups are Ken and Ryu. Chun is a tough matchup as well. but it is winnable. You need to get a big lead early on her and keep it. Just NEVER attack once you have it. DEFEND, DEFEND, DEFEND. Head butt any jumpins. Also his jumping jab works very well vs her air moves.

    The most under utilized move for honda is his 100 hands. I have never seen anyone other than myself use this effectively. People depend on the oichio and use it once or twice and say "yeah did you see that i can do that move" then proceed to get raped the rest of the match. That move should be used in close range situations and not be planned. no need to store it when your opp is full screen away. The 100 hands is much more practical and useful. You can do so much block damage, that your opp will be like What the #$%$. I prefer the steam roller approach. Give them no room to breath and hope that they go into what i like to call Block syndrome. Where they sit in the corner afraid to do anything. Or the other approach is that they are clueless as to what to do and they proceed to jump up and down in the corner. Now you can punish them in the air with jump fierce or jump jab into butt smash. Also pray for the psychic Dp game, if they miss one you must punish it with a counter headbutt, hands or trip or throw if close. He does have good foot game but you must realize he has great range with stRH. It can reach very far and you can trade with FBs. This is very effective and necessary vs DJ and shotos.

    The Sagat matchup is not as tough as you think, jump fierce is a great air move vs him, and Sagats FBs either miss you or they are easy to jump over. Do not butt smash vs him unless he is in the corner. Remember Hands!!
    The Sim matchup is nice one. not easy but basically you just need to knock him down once and it is 50% damage to SIM. ill explain that in another thread.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    More on Dhalsim vs Honda. I have played this matchup over 1000x. He has an answer to almost all of Sims moves. the Cj stops the slide and his hands pretty much owns everthing else. Dhalsims objective is to keep honda away. If you can keep honda guessing and keep him out you can win easily. i just need one knock down and this sets up the buttsmash insanity. When i do crossup butt smash (after a knock down) i can do many things. either a low short into head butt or another smash, a Lrh to trip him and crossup starts all over again. next i will do the oicho grab ( after buttsmash). crossup butt smash again. and hope he tries to conter grab then do another low move or smash. but @ this point sim has lost over 75% and is pretty much toasted. Once in the corner punish with hands again. The Slide beats hands cleanly so change up with low jabs to stop the slide then link the jab into more hands. also you must learn how to cancel your med hands into another med hands. tough to do but once you get the timing down it can lead to big chip damage. Another way on knocking Sim down or stunning him is through Jumping fierce or jumping med splash. Constantly change up your jump ins. once you get your meter built up sacrifice it to get in close by going through one of his FBs with it. also learn the timing of his Yogo Flame to sneak a full screen F.HB in as it dissipates. Once Sim has his meter built up things change and you need to bait him into blowing it off at the wrong time. Sometimes you can get over it with a butt smash but this rarely works. I still try and remain aggressive, don't let sim get his feet settled or he can keep you away again. His drills/mummys can be tricky the trick here is to not use your instincts to headbutt them but buttsmash them instead. or block them and attempt an oicho, its tough b/c of block stun against this move. This pretty much sums up that matchup.

    EDIT* any info on this matchup the other way would be much appreciated.
    Edit #2 when i say cancel med hands into another med hands i mean do only the minimal 100hand button pushes and start doing another set of button pushes for another hands to come out just as the initial hands stops its animation. There will be only a split second in between the 1st and 2nd volley of hands.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    ^ Pasted on to the wiki!!
    http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/E._Honda_%28ST%29

    Also I listed the advantage-disadvantage matchups on the bottom. Let me know if those are ok?

    EDIT: Oh wait you're nothingness? Uh huh wow I'm a jackass. Sorry.

    But, seriously, don't you think that Honda-T.Hawk is more lopsided than Honda-Blanka? I mean, it's all relative, eh?
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    For the matchups (pretty much in order):

    Serious advantage: Gief, Cammy, Fei
    Advantage: Hawk, Blanka, Dictator
    Fair: Claw, Boxer, Sagat, Sim
    Disadvantage: Chun Li, Ken
    Serious disadvantage: Guile, Ryu, DeeJay

    About the combos, Honda always wants to end his combos with hands, knockdown, or tick into ochio, and the hands is really only good if you have the opponent cornered. I'll try that hands thing out though, didn't know that close standing forward linked into standing strong.

    Edit: Honda v Hawk is more lopsided than Honda v Blanka, but not by a whole lot. Hawk is a little less mobile, but can play defense alright and, if forced, can jump toward Honda with jab and fierce and at least trade with the headbutt and sometimes beat it. Hawk loses the match, obviously, but it's not a baste like Honda v Gief, Cammy, or Fei is.

    Edit 2: Sim could really be under "disadvantage" matchups, but I'd keep him in "fair" instead.

    Edit 3: More waffling.
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  • epsilon_epsilon_ helpful Joined: Posts: 3,582
    hm, check out honda's fair matchups.

    the 4 best characters in the game, lol.
    i don't care what the critics say, violence is a beauuutiful thing!
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    THawk cannot jump in on Honda with nothing. his jHB has enough invincible frames to hit all of his jumpins. If someone is successfully jumping in on you with Hawk than your timing is off. Yes T.Hawk is more of a disadvantage than Blanka in a few ways but if i was to give one reason why T.Hawk is a tougher match it would be b/c of his Uppercut move. He can just walk forward and if you have fast enough reactions just psychic DP any of Honda hands or headbutts. Thawks 360 can be devastating to Honda but you must not allow him to knock you down at all. or risk him doing an early jump in and forcing Honda to either counter early with a mistimed HB which is then countered by a DP. or he can then link in with his 360 after he blocks Hondas mistimed HB. Unlike against Blanka (who should run when ahead)Thawk must keep on the pressure b/c Honda has a good enough attack game to go after Thawk when behind in Life. But Honda cannot (usually)attack a turtling Blanka that just jumps up and down in the corner.
    I can agree with the Ken, Ryu and DJ match-ups but not so much with Guile. I'll go into the Guile vs Honda match later.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Here is how i rate Hondas matchups:

    Serious advantage: Thawk, Fei, Cammy, Blanka, Zangief
    Advantage: Bison, Vega, Dhalsim
    Even: Balrog, ( i would give a VERY slight advantage to ROG)
    Disadvantage: Guile, Chunli, Sagat.
    Serious Disadvantage: Ryu, Ken, DJ

    Nohoho why that reaction to me being Nothingness?
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I don't mean that Hawk can jump at you from any range, I mean that he can jump at you from so that he lands a character space or so away; if you go for headbutt, it'll either trade or lose, depending on the strength of buttons you pick and he picks. He can also jump at you if he's already close enough so that he can cross you up, but sure, there's definitely an area in between those two where he can't jump, and good Hawks will know that. If Hawk gets into that first range, though, he can make you guess between dragon punch and walk-up 360. Of course, you can stop this with preemptive hands or by antiairing with neutral jumping fierce, but if Hawk thinks you're gonna do either of those, he'll just dive or not jump in the first place. Hawk can also play reasonably competent defense by sitting back with crouching jab, which beats headbutt and hands, but obviously this'll only last so long. The point is that while you have the advantage at almost all times, the advantage isn't huge like it is with Honda v Gief, Hawk does have games he can play that'll make you lose.
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Yes i have seen these tricks and i know exactly what you are talking about. If i see a Thawk jumping from far away, i simply use buttsmash or a straight up jump RH or fierce. or catch him early with a F.HB. Far jumping is a common CPU move. SRH works well against this too, as well as having them land on the hands. I also like to take hits on purpose in that situation to get into range for throws, point blank supers or point blank hands into HB. Thawk jumps in and hits my hands i do HB or smash, which hits him then i go on offense. Thawk can only get close enough to Honda for a Crossup if he knocks him down which is tough enough.

    If he starts to do jabs to prevent HB or hands i do Standing RH (remember to block back while you do this) to trip him up. Ill also let him jab my hands to trick him into thinking i do not know how to counter this move. But all i'm doing is building up my meter.
    The 1st move to do against THawk is to jump back and do hands then repeat.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Buttsmash isn't a great idea at that range, since Hawk's jumping fierce will beat it, go through it, or trade, and if Hawk then blocks it, depending on circumstances he can 360 or dragon punch. But yeah, the hands are good, sac throwing is fine if you have good ochio timing, early fierce headbutt is good. Far standing roundhouse beats Hawk's low jabs, but if Hawk sees you walking up or jumping up to get there, he can jump and do the dive, dragon punch, walk toward and/or jump into shenanigans, etc, because he knows you don't have charge. You can beat those options too, but again, the point is that these are all games that, although they usually go in your favor, can go in Hawk's favor a significant percentage of the time, and that's most of the reason why this matchup isn't 8-2 for Honda like the Gief, Cammy, and Fei matchups are.
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    hmmm here are how i would see two players equally skilled with there characters.
    Tier I
    Ryu vs Honda 8-2
    KEn 8-2
    DJ 7-3
    Tier II
    Chun 6.5-3.5
    Sagat 6.5-3.5
    Guile 6-4
    TierIII
    Balrog 5.5-4.5
    Tier IV
    Dhalsim 4-6
    Vega 4-6
    Bison 3.5-6.5
    Tier V
    Feilong 3-7
    Thawk 3-7
    Blanka 3-7
    Zangief 2.5-7.5
    Cammy 2-8

    The reason i give Fei 3-7 s b/c of the direction of his DP move he can block and do it safely. So while getting chipped he can try it if it fails he still can block.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Cool, I agree with lots of those, but here's my take (with the second number as Honda's score):


    Ryu: 8-2
    DeeJay: 8-2
    O Ken: 7.5-2.5

    Guile: 6.5-3.5
    N Ken: 6-4
    Chun: 6-4

    O Sagat: 5.5-4.5
    Boxer: 5-5
    Sim: 5-5
    Claw: 4.5-5.5

    Blanka: 4-6
    Dictator: 3.5-6.5
    O Hawk: 3.5-6.5

    Fei: 3-7
    Cammy: 2-8
    Gief: 2-8

    Edit: waffling between 3.5-6.5 or 4-6 for Blanka and 6-4 or 6.5-3.5 for N Ken.
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  • Warrior's DreamsWarrior's Dreams 梅原 > Wong Joined: Posts: 1,292
    I have been using Honda since his first appearance in sf2. I can talk for hours about his matchups, but i do not have the time here to do so. By far we all know his tough matchups are Ken and Ryu. Chun is a tough matchup as well. but it is winnable. You need to get a big lead early on her and keep it. Just NEVER attack once you have it. DEFEND, DEFEND, DEFEND. Head butt any jumpins. Also his jumping jab works very well vs her air moves.


    Yes! Finally! This is what the Honda thread NEEDS! Ehonda, please, for the sake of all things Honda, just keep talking! It is so hard to find someone who can talk about Honda. I want to learn !!!!!!

    :woot::woot::woot::woot::woot::woot::woot::woot:
    You shouldn't care about the division between ST and HDR, but rather the message you are sending to tournament organizers if you stop supporting the classic style of Street Fighter II.

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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Now I will post Honda vs Guile strats. Pardon if it is somewhat inaccurate I have not played this match-up in many years.

    Hondas key here is to bait Guile into throwing Booms. Even if Honda does anticipate Guile can still jump up to counter a buttsmash over the Boom, since Guiles lag time after the boom is very short. The Key in this situation is to be as close to Guile as possible and do Medium B.Smash through the boom hitting him on the way up. If you are to far away to hit him on the way up you will hit him on the way down (unless Guile jumps away or air grabs him [tough to do ] Guile can recover and counter this move when you land.
    Pinning Guile in the corner is essential to beating him. Using ticks and foot games with C.short, C.forward, StRH and low strong and jab. These prevent booms and various moves in Guiles arsenal. You cannot fight Guile mid screen (much like against Vega). Chipping away at Guile with 100 hands is a nice way to get blk damage and to close to set up the oichio. I like early Jumps vs Guile as well after you knock him down do a Crossup Msplash early hope that Guile does a wake up and then Hit him with Hands 2x the 1st will hit, the other will make them block. Or after the initial hit do Bsmash. and attempt to grab or do low Short into HB. Try not to knock him down again until you have done sufficient damage to him.

    Here are a list of NEVERS:

    1. Never do Forward or Rhouse smashes over booms from full screen. only use short until close.
    2. Never Turtle. ( unless you have an 80% lead or so and time is running out of course)
    3. Never do full screen Headbutts.
    4. Never allow him to jump in.
    5. Never allow him to tick throw you. * you do have oichio remember that!!!!!!!!!
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    I noticed there was a few posts about the guide I wrote so I figured i'd just clear things up. The last version of the guide I spoke of was totally lost due to the PC it was wrote on having a complete HD failure, so all was left was a very rough version of the guide I had saved on my e-mail.

    I'm due to become a father in a few weeks so I don't have time to re-write what was lost and finish the thing (also whenever I play ST these days, I use Boxer), but I figured i'd post the most interesting parts from the "ghetto guide" and hopefully it will get people started on racking up the wins with Honda.




    Anti-Projectile Strategy

    One of the major hurdles a beginner Honda player will run into is dealing with projectile spam - at the start you'll probably think its a lost cause dealing with the random hits/block damage caused due to his size, but after a while you'll learn how to deal with it.

    First thing to know is NEVER EVER use HK Sumo Splash, that thing is serious counter bait, don't use it.

    LK Sumo Splash over projectiles from max distance away does very well if you are willing to "creep" towards your opponent - remember that patience will serve you well in the long run as all it takes is to win is 1 mistake or trapping the opponent in the corner and keeping them there.

    MK Sumo Splash is very risky, especially against shotos, but if it is used once in a while it may help gain some ground if you have the health to take the risk with.

    Straight Up j.HP - this is controllable, so you can move forward slightly while in the air, learning to do this is pretty essential because overuse of any type of Sumo Splash will lead to being countered all the time.

    The Super - *text removed due to reference to points later in the guide* don't forget about it and remember to have a back up plan if it doesn't work correctly.

    j.LK - this comes in handy since makes Honda a smaller target and seems to have pretty high priority, i've seen this do pretty really well against Guile in particular.

    MP HHS - this isn't avoiding the projectile par say, but if you are willing to be a man (and have the health to back it up), you can at least trade hits from a fair distance away, this can be a psychological advantage knowing you always have a way to at least trade off in the damage department.

    Ill also use the MP (and sometimes HP) HHS after a straight up j.HP, this can be decent pressure against characters with longer projectile recovery time, New Ken and New Sagat being prime targets.

    Another method of countering projectile spam is by simply trying to bulldog your way to the opponent - walk forward, block, repeat (and perhaps do the occastional poke now and then)... you'll slowly but surely back your opponent up into a corner. This is, of course, a very dangerous way of getting in, as proven in one of the A-cho tournaments, it can actually get you completely owned so only use this if you have strong reactions.

    As stated earlier, patience is the key against someone who knows how to use their projectiles, take your time with the confidence that you'll eventually get in (even if it takes the whole round and nearly all your health to do it) and you should go far.

    Hundred Hand Slap - which one to use?

    HHS is mainly a chipper - if you go into a match thinking of using it as a primary way of dealing direct damage, your thinking the wrong strategy with Honda.

    General, point blank on wider characters, chip damage is as follows:
    Weak: 3 max
    Medium: 5 max
    Fierce: 7 max

    (those numbers could be wrong - I just wrote them off the top of my head but it seems about right)

    The general usage of each version is as follows:

    Weak: This HHS actually has pretty good priority all round, will snuff out a decent number of moves and can be good to use randomly at the start of the round if someone gets fresh with you and attempts to jump-in (which would be suicide really, but whatever...). This can also be used as a method of fast meter building since Honda's super is an important psychological key to winning the vs. projectile character match ups. This is also very good at point blank range on a knockdowned opponent in the corner.

    Medium: This is the one I use the most, it moves Honda forward pretty fast at a reasonable distance, is very easy to learn to get the minimum 4 button press activation and does an excellent job at putting pressure on the opponent. Superb meter builder also so learn how to do this at will and watch your Honda game sky rocket. Another thing to learn is blocked c.MK into MP slaps and blocked b/f + HK into MP (or HP) slaps - this is purely pressure/chip related but a lot of people won't have a clue how to deal with the constant barrage of low hitting normals and forward moving slaps, and since you can charge for Sumo Headbutts during the slaps, they can't really jump forward at you either.

    Fierce: Personally, I don't use this very often - it moves Honda VERY quickly and quite far across the screen, but it always seems to put me in danger more than anything, generally i'll use this when I want that extra couple of hits in block damage or really need to cover some ground after a knockdown, but other than that, I stick to MP slaps.

    The Secrets of Mashing

    Ahh, the hidden art of mashing for those Hundred Hand Slaps - what most people don't know is there is a rule for mashing where you can actually get the move to come out in a minimum of 4 button presses.

    Another rumour, which i'll kill now is; no - you can't piano tap for HHS - piano tapping only works with Deejay's Machine Gun Upper.

    Anyway, use this ghetto chart to see how get the minimum 4 button press HHS:

    Weak: LP..... LP..... LP..... LP
    Medium: MP... MP... MP... MP
    Fierce: HP.HP.HP.HP

    What it quite interesting is the drastic change in tempo between the MP and HP versions of HHS - you can actually do the MP version pretty darn slow and it'll still come out while the HP version needs to be done very fast and there doesn't seem to be any exception except "mash fast". If anyone can give a different view on the HP version, post it.

    Stored Oochio

    The nightmare move of ST... this makes Honda an iron fortress and is arguable the most broken thing in the game - learning to use and abuse this is completely essential for high level play.

    Oochio is performed with a HCB + P movement right? Well, a glitch in ST makes it so Honda can store the move and use it at will - this is done by doing the HCB movement then holding onto either Back, Up-Back or Down-Back and not letting go.

    Why is this technique so good? Oochio is a zero frame command throw (with no whiff animation, unlike Gief's SPD) with decent range, which means under reversal circumstances it will beat every ground based attack in the game... period. This also means when Honda is knockdowned, he can store Oochio and basically be impossible to meaty attack.

    Other plus points is the fact when your holding onto Back/Down-Back so you are essentially charging up for Sumo Headbutt and Sumo Splash while having a perfect reversal waiting. In other words, everything you want for the "tank-like" defensive is covered, if you wanted, you could also use MP and HP slaps as a way of moving forward while keeping all 3 attacks ready.

    One last point; when the opponent isn't in range for an Oochio, you can use any normal attack you wish and not lose the store.

    Oochio Options

    Whenever you land an Oochio (stored or not) you have a whole host of options to play with, here we go:

    c.MK - this doesn't work on all characters and i'll update this with a list at a later date, but because Oochio does a HUGE amount of stun damage, generally, the next hit will probably dizzy the opponent.

    MP HHS - this is a no brainer, the lunging slaps get chip damage for free... unless your opponent is a reversal demon they'll most likely do the safe option and block.

    c.MK > MP HHS - an extention of the above, if the c.MK doesn't get them... the chip damage from the HHS will...

    HK Sumo Splash - this will cross the opponent over and probably dizzy them if it connects.

    MK Sumo Splash - just to mix up paranoia about the crossover HK Sumo Splash with a non-crossover Sumo Splash.

    j-d.MK (the splash) > Oochio - this is risky but is worth it if you connect with another Oochio afterwards.

    (in the corner) c.LK xx Sumo Splash - the c.LK is cancellable so it should flow like a thing of beauty for a high/low block string, can also lead to another Oochio.

    (in the corner) LP HHS - like the MP HHS, chip damage for all, just watch out for those reversal throws.

    (in the corner) Oochio Loop - see the next section...

    B/F+HK - the sweep of doom, use if you forget the above follow ups... >_>

    c.LP > Oochio - this can be done when you land an Oochio close to the corner but you still switch sides with the opponent, this is done the same way as the Oochio Loop (talked about in the next section) only you cant carry with the loop after the second Oochio hits.

    Oochio Corner Loop

    This is Hondas fast route to 100% victory, here is how to do it:

    Step 1) Get opponent into the corner and knock them down.

    Step 2) Do a point blank meaty c.LP (stand LP and c.LK are also options, but c.LP is by far the better attack).

    Step 3) Oochio them when they recover from block/hit stun - this can be done by 3 methods;

    By quick storing then piano tapping the Oochio - this gives 6 chances for the Oochio to connect with the opponent but also runs the risk of being reversaled by a special move easier if a normal comes out during a mistime.

    By quick storing, holding down the 3 punches when the c.LP is still out, and releasing them one after the other piano style - this method cuts the number of chances for the Oochio to come out by 3, but also removes the risk of being reversaled by a special move since Honda will always block it instead.

    Or by doing it normally with a brief pause between the c.LP and Oochio (like you would when doing something like Gief's LK > SPD) - I seriously recommend not using this method at all.

    Step 4) Repeat Steps 2 and 3 - the Oochio in the corner puts the opponent into perfect position for another meaty c.LP, so this is a pretty easy loop to learn.

    While this trick is pretty nasty, it can (like anything else) be escaped by reversals - I generally don't recommend using this against characters with access to a hold rather than a throw since at least if you get reversal thrown while attempting this, odds are you can tech out of it for minimal damage... unlike most holds while lead to a whole load of pain even if you escape quickly.

    To make things easier, here is a list of characters that you should not attempt the Oochio Loop on unless you are feeling brave and have the health to spare:

    Dhalsim, Boxer, Blanka, T-Hawk and (New) Ken

    T-Hawk, Gief and Honda (obviously) can also use their own command grabs to get out the loop

    When doing the loop, I recommend mixing it up with LP slaps, Sumo Splashes and LP Sumo Headbutts to keep the opponent from thinking twice when trying to reversal throw you - of course, this is still open to something like a reversal DP, but mixing up your options even when it might not be needed will keep your Honda from being predictable.




    That's all i'm posting up for now, if you guys enjoyed these bits of the guide I might clean up other sections and post them up in time - feedback and criticism is welcome, thanks for taking the time to read all that.
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    This was very well done, basic but well done. I only disagreed with one thing in this guide and that was the RH Buttsmash. This is one of the biggest tricks Honda has in his arsenal. There are a few things you can use it for, by changing your timing of when you go over FBs this will change where you are after the FB passes under you. Since you go so high in the Air it gives you more opportunities to get over them. IF my opp is full screen its a nice trick to get your opp to try and reversal this move. I will do and early RH Smash over a FB just landing after the FB lands under me. IF i do it late the odds of it being countered are much higher but it will prevent a Crh from a Ken and Ryu if they are used to seeing you do it early. Changing up tactics while using RH Smash are a must. Also if they try and counter this move in the air and they do a jumping forward move to counter you, they just put themselves(when they land) in range of an ochio or a M buttsmash. Remember the Short buttsmash cannot go through FBs when they are point blank. At the start of a round if your opp starts the round with a FB you can counter with Med BS to go through the FB and get a knock down on the way up. ...that is the range im talking about when they try and counter your RH Buttsmash. So they essentially took FB out of there armory until they retreat a bit farther back.

    One of the things i loved was one of the first comments about taking block damage. (Yes get used to it. ) taking hits is also necessary if you are to get inside. especially the full screen Super through FB even though a great reversal player can counter it, this will get you into range again. Another thing i was suprised about was that you did not mention the whiff super into oichio.
    some times you will notice that when Honda does his Super it will only connect 2 times on a random basis, this is not bad if you always prepare for it. If after you do the super motion and hit your last forward motion roll it backwards to the DB position and repress the button and hold it while you are still in the super itself. when/ IF you whiff with only 2 hits of the super release or redo the motion/button of the oichio and get devestating damage from the two hits of the super and linking into the oichio throw.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • KuprinKuprin MOOGLE RUSH!!! Joined: Posts: 322
    That's...really interesting, and makes a lot of sense. Perhaps there's some tweaking of our strategies in the Ryu and Ken matchups as well, to keep from getting quite so spanked?
    Suicidal for life.
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Yes ive seen this before, but very rarely. Bob Painter used a similar strategy with Honda. This works great until your opponent adjusts like all top level players will do. This will work great on high level players but not for very long, and low level players why bother. Another strategy is to bear hug then walk under neath as they land and play some games that way as well. much like the Balrog thingee.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,611 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Yes ive seen this before, but very rarely. Bob Painter used a similar strategy with Honda. This works great until your opponent adjusts like all top level players will do. This will work great on high level players but not for very long, and low level players why bother. Another strategy is to bear hug then walk under neath as they land and play some games that way as well. much like the Balrog thingee.

    well, damn... sorry i posted.

    but walking underneath is way too risky. you usually can be reversal thrown before you truly get underneath, and your chances of attacking the wrong way after walking underneath is very high.
    O_o
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    it was a legit post... sometimes using stuff that is not usually used can be effective. but just don't over use it . finding a way of mixing up two different patterns in the same situation can be a great advantage.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    well, damn... sorry i posted.

    What? C'mon, don't take it too personally. People can express diffent opinions, that is part of posting on a forum! :wgrin:

    Keep posting.

    I don't think honda ment his reply as an attact.

    There are tons of people who play tons of different chracters. When it comes to mid/lower tier characters such as Honda (sorry Honda fans :lovin:), there are tons of differnt ways to approaching things b/c there is no *single* dominate tactic they can exibit to get out of problematic situations... hence being low tier.

    People want to hear what other have to say as long as their not speaking out thier @$$.

    :angel:
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    yes exactly! So much has been uncovered in ST over the past many years. Its tough to come up with something never seen before. i haven't seen that thing in a long time. in fact i re-learn stuff every tourney i enter. half the time i forget things i have seen 6-7 years prior. Its nice to see people actually taking the time to experiment with things.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • jmsjms Joined: Posts: 339
    A while back, Apoc posted jokingly that (and I paraphrase) among the old school players, ST tournaments were no longer about who was the best, but who had forgotten the least. Forgetting matchups and general memory loss is evidently a serious hurdle for the 30 and older crowd :rofl:

    ST discussions are cyclical. Skilled and devoted players come along, drop a few knowledge bombs, and after a time fade from the scene due to real life obligations or lack of interest. Newer players pay attention, take up the reins, and make important contributions. But there's no central repository of ST knowledge. Before experimenting with something "new," a player can't consult the big book of ST and realize that "Honda bear hug in the corner followed by a properly timed c.RH crosses up" has already been discovered. So, for better or worse, new player or old, we reinvent lots of really cool wheels with spinners.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Yes ive seen this before, but very rarely. Bob Painter used a similar strategy with Honda. This works great until your opponent adjusts like all top level players will do. This will work great on high level players but not for very long, and low level players why bother. Another strategy is to bear hug then walk under neath as they land and play some games that way as well. much like the Balrog thingee.

    Wow...Bob Painter. I wish I had played his Honda more. I'm guessing he "retired" from the SF scene much like Milo did. I knew those cats personally, BTW. You got me reminiscin' about the old days.

    Anyway, I would think that if you're bear hugging with Honda, you probably got it by accident and any shenanigans you pull after that should be geared toward landing the Ouchio Throw. Am I crazy?
    Onaje Everett
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Wow...Bob Painter. I wish I had played his Honda more. I'm guessing he "retired" from the SF scene much like Milo did. I knew those cats personally, BTW. You got me reminiscin' about the old days.

    Anyway, I would think that if you're bear hugging with Honda, you probably got it by accident and any shenanigans you pull after that should be geared toward landing the Ouchio Throw. Am I crazy?

    Hmm got me thinking of some mess with that bear hug stuff... bear hug walk forward do Standing low RH which will cross-up then go and try for oichio. blah... i rarely use the bear hug unless i'm trying to counter throw a certain characters throw. I have found out that i can counter throw certain characters throws with certain throws. so if Ken tries to do low short into a leg throw i should use leg throw to counter that, not his bear hug or MP throw. I do not think it has anything to do with the game mechanics but it seemed to work a lot for me in the past. perhaps it was just psychological.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • Don CalzoneDon Calzone Joined: Posts: 290
    Two questions:

    1. Is Hondas jab headbutt ALWAYS safe to use as an anti-air? Is there stuff that beats it?

    2. Does O.Honda have a different throw range than N.Honda? I remember watching a vid where an O.Honda tor up a couple of guys using alot of kneebashing (RH right?) throws, one of the guys played Boxer and almost never threw the Honda back.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Sumo Splash Stuff...
    While your statement makes sense, in my personal experience against one of Europe's top Ryu and Chun players, as well as some pretty good Deejay and Guile players, RH Sumo Splash is an absolutely awful move in general and often lead to me eating damage for free.

    The only time I'll personally use RH Sumo Splash is for some crossover trickery, i'll never use it for anti-projectile purposes.

    Like I said, that's just my personal view on the move - if other people want to keep it in their arsenal, it's all good.
    Two questions:

    1. Is Hondas jab headbutt ALWAYS safe to use as an anti-air? Is there stuff that beats it?

    2. Does O.Honda have a different throw range than N.Honda? I remember watching a vid where an O.Honda tor up a couple of guys using alot of kneebashing (RH right?) throws, one of the guys played Boxer and almost never threw the Honda back.

    1) Jab Headbutt is invincible on start-up so theory wise, it beats everything - the trick is learning the timing to use the start-up (which is an attack all on it's own) to anti-air, not the actual torpedo itself.

    2) I'm fairly sure that Old and New Honda's normal throws share the same grab range. Without seeing the video myself, i'm taking a guess that the reason why the Boxer couldn't throw back is because, iirc, Honda's normal throw range is larger than Boxer's.
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Hondas Jab Head butt is like RWD said "invincible on start up". But you must watch for early jumps and far jumps which will effectively make your JHB worthless and very vulnerable. As far as i know the throw ranges are the same. You also can be throw out of the JHB by things such as Gief and Thawks 360's. Early jump by Zangief then 360 = death for Honda.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Dj cannot defend against the RH smash his recovery is too slow, Guile however can, Chunli cannot recover in time either. Ryu and Ken yes they are fast enough. Remember i don't mean that they cannot recover as in they will be hit by the RH splash, they all can block it, just some block at different stages of the move. DJ and Chun can block but countering it is tough. Guile can just jump away. Ryu and Ken can DP it. Also it all has to do with anticipation of the move as well.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Deejay can just do runaway Max Out > j.RH (which stops pretty much everything) all day and it gives Honda hell - RH Sumo Splash is probably the worst thing you could attempt in that match-up... as for Chun, what self-respectable Chun player is going to throw a fireball anywhere but full screen (or during a block string) anyway?

    If both characters are still throwing them at mid-screen or whatever, they deserve to lose.

    Like I said, if people want to keep using RH Sumo Splash as a viable way of getting past projectiles, that's cool - i've already covered what I think are the better ways of dealing with projectiles in a previous post.
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    actually in the DJ scenario i would allow the Jump RH to hit me then just when he think ill do it again block the Maxout then hit him when he lands with F HButt or block then jab headbutt into a med splash. No Legit Honda player is going to be doing RH smashes from from more than mid screen anyways so that is pointless to even mention. This is all up close and personal RH smahses. The timing of the RH smash means EVERYTHING. I do agree med is 100x better than RH, RH smash has its purpose though.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Deejay can throw a Max Out then see what your going to do and counter if needed, no legit Deejay is going to throw a projectile in a bad position then blindly j. RH in vain hope your trying to get over it with a Splash.

    As for the "No Legit Honda player is going to be doing RH smashes from more than mid screen anyways" statement - I 100% agree, but it's shocking the amount of Honda players who do it out of pure desperation. I'm trying to help put learning Honda's on the right path but making it clear RH Splash is an awful anti-projectile strategy at high levels and is only good for some crossover trickery and a couple of mid-screen strats.
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    DJ cannot counter if Honda anticipates the max out. if its done on reaction then yes DJ can counter. Almost Everything becomes guess when you are playing top tier players.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Honda vs Claw

    This match up i give a slight 6-4 or 5.5-4.5 advantage to Honda. The main problems Honda has vs Claw are Claws jumping speed and is mid screen cross up game. First thing to know when fighting claw....Get in the corner as fast as you can. If you get caught in the middle of the screen, you more than likely will take chip damage from the crossup walldives, enough to put Claw on the run and you want to have a lead vs claw not be chasing him all over the board. you must make Claw come to you. (If he gets the lead it will be extremely difficult to get it back.) Sit in that corner and splash or headbutt every jump in he attempts. another trick is to block then ochio the jumpin. you may notice that you cannot headbutt claws jumps most of the time. This is due to the speed of his jumps.
    The Air game:. Honda actually fairs quite well in this. Jump back jab stops just about all of the wall dives. Anything off of the wall jumpback jab. if he goes off of his wall sit and head butt it. If he tries to go off of your wall you must use jump back jab to prevent Claw from going of off your wall and causing you to lose your charge. if you are caught not charging or with cement feet use standing fierce.
    The ground game: Honda does well but beware of the rolls, sometimes they can hit all of Hondas ground moves. Hands is a nice way to get him out of his ground game. Another danger is the full screen headbutt. Most expert Claw players invite you to do full screen HB then they can do a single back flip then throw you then RUN! Scrolling the screen also meses up Claw so doing repeated Hands (even if they miss) can screw his wall game up.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Honda Vs Thawk

    This is one of Hondas best matchups. The air game should not come into play at all in this matchup b/c Honda does not need to Jump or be in the air at all. Honda must beware of a few things against Hawk. The first being his short dive into DP. nice trick easily stopped by either Hbutt after the Dp or hands. Hbutt the dive itself(if in range). if not in range. use hands or safe low jab. Hawk is unable to use Far dives that will hit deep or high. Headbutt stops this. Headbutt stops just about everything that Hawk has to offer. WARNING DO NOT GET KNOCKED DOWN! Get to the air if Hawk is able to get in after he knocks you down. Jumping back with out hitting any buttons is preferred it tightens your hitboxes and you become tougher to hit. if not Hit fierce or RH very Early. Get in the corner and sit there, headbutt every jumpin and hands often to build meter. If things get up-close and personal Ochio. I cannot emphasize this more 1. DO NOT GET KNOCKED DOWN!
    2. Head butt ALL jump ins.
    3 Do Hands often to keep him out of typhoon range.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    OK enough with the easy straight forward matches, LOL. I want to hear some other Honda players opinions on the DJ and Chun match-ups. Those are the ones I find the most challenging.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    The reasoning behind posting the winnable matches for Honda first is b/c if you cant win those matches then there is no point in trying to win at the difficult ones. I will be posting chun and/or DJ within the next two weeks.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Hello - I'm new to SRK, but not to SFII. Thing is, I'm used to HF from the arcade and super from the snes. I finally decided to move to super turbo via AE due to the release of HD. (lotta acronyms huh?) I of course noticed right away that the normal moves have some differences. (as I did "back in the day" but I seldom played ST back then so it didn't matter in those days).

    First the crouching fierce. I noticed that it's a double palm most of the time now. Seems to lose range and gain a second hit. Also noticed that "classic" cr. HP sometimes comes out. Question: what governs when the "old" move comes out? Also is the new move an improvement or a nerf? (so far I don't like it)

    Also noticed that his standing roundhouse kicks up more often now, I think it did that when close in turbo and super, but it seems you need to be alot farther away to make the sweep come out now, is this correct or am I wrong on this one? Again, if changed is it good or bad?

    Other major one is that his splash needs a down command to come out whereas m kick would always come out as a splash as long as you werent jumping straight up. this change is clearly good as it gives more options - nothing is taken away.

    Finally the cr. med and short kicks have a completely different move - he doesn't crouch low and sideways and flip his foot out sideways like he used to. Is the old move gone? And lastly, is this once again a positive change or a negative?

    Any help getting me adjusted is appreciated - I know he has a command throw now and am working on incorperating it also - hopefully I can offer up some decent competition before too long...
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Yes i was a little disappointed with the changes to Honda's regular moves. The old Cr fierce now has to be done while standing. If its done the other way you get the double pump.
    Another significant change was his standing fierce which now has random outcomes. Your opponent must be close for this to come out. otherwise its just a straight jab.
    his old cr forward and short must be done while standing now basically the switched the standing with cr moves. It gives him more options and a better ground game. His RH hasn't really changed that much you generally either hold forward or back to get the standing sweep.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Cr. Fierce is the (mostly useless) double hit punch. Standing fierce gives you the move that LOOKS like the cr.Fierce from HF but it DOESN'T KNOCK DOWN. It is a definite change for the worse. You only get his Fierce chop move when the opponent is close (less reliable to use as anti-air now because sometimes you get the old cr.punch instead of the chop).


    Stading Fierce gives you the upward kick, if you want the sweep you need to push towards or back + Roundhouse. He also doesn't have his Short and Forward knockdown sweeps from Super and HF. His close short move can be cancelled into the fierce headbutt to give Honda a real non-chain combo finally. His close Short also makes a nice tick into the Ochio throw (cr.Jab is better but Short is nice to mix it up every now and then).


    Learn to use the Ochio! It is his best upgrade in ST.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Also i too missed his old cr fierce that knocked down it was one of the features that i disliked. He needed his chop as well, which they made random.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    N Honda and O Honda both have advantages in terms of their normals.

    O Honda's crouching fierce is really good because it's his quickest sweep and his standing fierce chop is really good as an antiair and to counterpoke some normals. His crouching short and forward have awesome hitboxes and can totally stuff things like headbutt and Blanka ball. His standing jab also has one of the best hitboxes in the game because almost his whole hand can't be attacked even though it hits the opponent, so you can play great up-close games on opponents' wakeups; you can stand at max range and do standing jab as Ryu wakes up, and if he blocks, you get a tick, and if he does dp, it goes right through your hand and you can do free damage. Also, his far standing kicks all sweep and have different speeds and ranges, making for some nice mixups and whiffs-into-walkups.

    N Honda's crossup game is way better, since his crossup roundhouse is one of the best in the game. I also feel like his jumping non-splash forward is a little beefier. His standing and crouching kicks are more intuitively arranged, which is nice, and the hitboxes are pretty much the same where he shares animations with O Honda. His far standing jab is pretty similar to O Honda's, but it's not quite as safe. His normals are also more cancelable and combo-friendly. And actually for some reason I'm blanking on this, but one of them has a better jumping short hitbox; one doesn't hit on the front of Honda's attack, only on the bottom, but right now I can't recall which. Heh, that's annoying.

    The main reason people generally agree that N Honda is better than O Honda is that it's a lot easier for N Honda to get in. He has controllable neutral jumping fierce, a beefier hitbox on his buttslam, and rush slaps, which makes getting in way less of a chore. N Honda also has the command grab, which is obviously a plus. But even without the command grab, O Honda is still a beast once he gets in; his standing sweeps, crouching fierce, crouching short and forward, safe standing jab, walking slaps, and fierce grab/standing fierce option select are really beastly against some characters. They're both good characters. I usually go with N Honda, especially against characters I need to get in on, but in certain matchups, like against Blanka, O Honda is definitely my sumo of choice.
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853

    Snip.....

    Not to mention, O.honda's St. Jab > fwd.Jab HHS, is a quick two hit combo for 27% damage (12+15) with great priortiy.

    It is like a walking priority box, if you get hit with the st.jab, {BAM} you get hit with a HHS.
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Yeah, you can basically walk forward randomly slapping on the jab button and mixing it up with the occasional standing fierce/fierce throw option select against some characters. Oh yeah, standing jab to standing fierce is vicious against some characters. Like, against DeeJay, O Honda's standing fierce actually beats DeeJay's upkicks at the right range, which also happens to be still within O Honda's fierce throw range, so needless to say if you get a standing jab on DeeJay, you can go for some really serious standing fierce/fierce throw option select, more jabs, slaps, etc mixup games. Except, try getting in against DeeJay with O Honda, not the easiest thing!
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Wow! Thanks, that was sooo useful. I suspected that O cr. fierce was better, but didn't know that jump roundhouse had more crossup mojo since it looks the same. Also didn't know that I can zone old jab to be safe vs. dp! I knew it was pretty safe, but not THAT good! I also noticed that old cr fierce animation does come out, but only on a standing fierce at medium range. Old st fierce comes out at close range, but loses some distance due to what was originally the crouch move coming out when farther out.

    I totally welcome the rush slaps - being able to keep a charge while advancing is no small thing.

    It will be interesting to see what aspects of each make it into HD remix

    Thanks you once again for the O Honda vs. N Honda perspective - it helped alot. Now off to practice!
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Honda vs Sagat

    This match is one of the more difficult ones for Honda to Handle. The speed of Sagats Tigers are formidable. Also Sagats jumping RH is difficult to get around. Your reactions must be at their best. The air Game: Honda Jumping towards Fierce works well as well as his early jumping jab. Sagats jumping RH can keep you at bay through out the match. Timing a headbutt after the RH retracts till when they hit the ground is not recommended.
    Ground game: You MUST keep constant pressure on Sagat so he cannot set up his tigers. His Tigers in reality are not that difficult to get around. Jumping over the slow high ones or crouching under the fast high ones make them worthless against Honda. The ones you have to worry about are the low ones. Believe it or not the slow low Tigers are Jail Bait. If go over these from full screen you will be DPed and if you go over the fast ones you need to almost guess at what is being throw unless you are full screen and the slow tigers may trade anyways b/c Honda can land on the slow low tigers after Honda Hits Sagat. Reacting and guessing correctly is key. So i do not recommend going over low tigers to much, unless they are just throwing constant low tigers then keep them honest.. So how do you keep on the pressure? Constant Hands as well as St. RH. if you can link these together you can keep a constant barrage of hits going ( not a combo). E.g. hands - Rh -hands -Rh repeat. Hondas Butt smash has very little use unless you have him trapped. If you do do it you must execute it early so that J.RH does not snuff it out.
    Throws: Normal throws work great vs OG sagat but if you face off against new sagat use the oichio when in close as much as possible.
    Starting off the match many Sagat players will start with a J.RH. or a Tiger or a tiger knee into DP. If they do the latter then punish them as the DP is landing. if the J.RH do a standing Rh to trip them. if they catch on to this, pause just a second and make them guess at what is coming. As for how you can start... Hands, St.RH, Block, Cr. Jab. or if you can guess a tiger then use Frw Buttsmash.
    Another trick is to do Short butt smashes over the low tigers as well as his short squat jump over them.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    I have a dumb question about the Ochio throw. When I tick into Ochio (usually off a cr.jab or jump in splash) I usually use negative edge and release all three punch buttons one after the other. Does this make the tick "safe" against reversals like it does when T.Hawk neg. egdes the Stormhammer after a tick? Or am I just better off just piano-ing the buttons to make sure I get the Ochio off?
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Yep, negative edging makes it safe because there's no whiff animation. If the opponent does a reversal attack, you'll block, and if they don't, you'll throw them. The only thing that can beat it is a reversal throw, but that's only really an issue against Gief, Hawk, and another Honda. When I go for crouching jab into ochio as my opponent is waking up, I make sure I'm out of my opponent's reversal normal throw range and then roll from toward to down, press jab then strong-fierce (for a crouching jab with strong/fierce buffered in), continue rolling to down and down-back, and then let go of the buttons going fierce then strong then jab. I do fierce first because fierce ochio does huge stun, enough so that two ochios in a row will probably stun your opponent, so it's best to give it preference.
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  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    I know Fierce Ochio does more stun but do any of them have different ranges? I know ST 'Gief players claim the different SPD's have different ranges, not just different damages. I've never heard of either one being confirmed (i need to get a copy of the Yoga Hyper book, LOL).
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Nah, all the ochios have the same range, although the fierce one does more damage as well as stun. The different strengths of spd do have different ranges, though, and you can test that for yourself pretty easily in training mode.
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