Honda thread

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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    If i do Sumo Smash from the down back to the up back position im still charged for a headbutt when i land i immediately do a fierce head butt and end up on the other side of the player. i may have video of this ill check it out. i do this all the time so its not a fluke thing.. works great against Blanka after a blocked BS. go right into HButt. Many are expecting a throw or hands no one ever expects a headbutt.
    I do that all the time (Sumo Smash into immediate fierce headbutt) but it seems that 95% of the time the enemy will backjump over the headbutt and throw me for my trouble during my headbutt recovery, so maybe it's worth delaying that headbutt just a little bit to avoid that. The shotos are especially dangerous for this it seems.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • DecoyDecoy You better block. Joined: Posts: 497
    NO! u cant!!! the ONLY character who can store charge is Balrog! because of his dash low (DF) and headbutt (UB), Guile CANT store charge!!! the only way is doing the motion very fast (down back to forward to down back + P) or the flash kick motion...

    Sorry man but you're wrong on this one. Blanka can store a charge with forward hops and O Guile can store a charge with knee bazooka. Both are forward progress pressure moves. Not as powerful as Rogs but still the same thing.

    ~Decoy
    XBL Tag: Real Decoy
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Actually Honda can't store charge for the headbutt, it's just that Honda's charge moves require the least charge time of any charge moves in the game (well, tied for that anyway), so you when you start the buttslam and immediately start holding down-back again, by the time you land and recover, you've already charged long enough to do headbutt, buttslam, and super.

    Also, Blanka can't store charge. Toward hop to ball is done with vertical ball, and it's done by holding down to start charging for the vertical ball, hold down-toward plus kicks to get the hop and keep charging for vertical ball, and then press up+kick. And Guile isn't storing for the same reason, he's still charging while that move is going on.
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Actually Honda can't store charge for the headbutt, it's just that Honda's charge moves require the least charge time of any charge moves in the game (well, tied for that anyway), so you when you start the buttslam and immediately start holding down-back again, by the time you land and recover, you've already charged long enough to do headbutt, buttslam, and super.
    Wait wait, I think we're getting confused here.

    When Honda does a headbutt, he has to lose his downcharge, because you can't input it as "charge db, df+punch". So you can't really do headbutt -> immediate buttslam.

    But Honda can perfectly well do a buttslam as "charge db, ub+kick", so you can do buttslam -> immediate headbutt without ever losing your backcharge. Sure, you can also just start your charge really fast during the buttslam, but why bother? :wgrin:
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    That's what's happening, you're charging for a new headbutt. You're not keeping your headbutt charge from before the buttslam, you're charging for a new headbutt and by the time your buttslam finishes, you're fully charged for a new headbutt. You can also charge for another buttslam or for a super during a buttslam.
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  • DecoyDecoy You better block. Joined: Posts: 497
    Actually Honda can't store charge for the headbutt, it's just that Honda's charge moves require the least charge time of any charge moves in the game (well, tied for that anyway), so you when you start the buttslam and immediately start holding down-back again, by the time you land and recover, you've already charged long enough to do headbutt, buttslam, and super.

    Also, Blanka can't store charge. Toward hop to ball is done with vertical ball, and it's done by holding down to start charging for the vertical ball, hold down-toward plus kicks to get the hop and keep charging for vertical ball, and then press up+kick. And Guile isn't storing for the same reason, he's still charging while that move is going on.

    You're right on both counts. I'm using the wrong terms. Blanka and Guile can maintain a charge while performing forward progress moves. NOT store as in the Honda and Chun glitches.

    ~Decoy
    XBL Tag: Real Decoy
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    That's what's happening, you're charging for a new headbutt. You're not keeping your headbutt charge from before the buttslam, you're charging for a new headbutt and by the time your buttslam finishes, you're fully charged for a new headbutt.
    O rly? How do you distinguish between the two if their effects are identical (i.e. you can headbutt as soon as you land from a db->ub+K buttslam without letting go of "back")?

    Might be kind of a pointless question but I'm curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Sorry man but you're wrong on this one. Blanka can store a charge with forward hops and O Guile can store a charge with knee bazooka. Both are forward progress pressure moves. Not as powerful as Rogs but still the same thing.

    ~Decoy

    What he said x 2.
    -Fatboy
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    O rly? How do you distinguish between the two if their effects are identical (i.e. you can headbutt as soon as you land from a db->ub+K buttslam without letting go of "back")?

    Might be kind of a pointless question but I'm curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.
    Because you can do the same thing with buttlsam. Do the motion for buttslam and immediately go back to down in the same way Guile maximizes sonic booms (so, down charge, up-down+kick) and you'll be able to do buttslam immediately on landing. This makes me think that in holding back while doing buttslam motion, you're not storing the back charge, you're merely beginning a new headbutt charge as soon as possible after the buttslam input, and by the time buttslam is done, you have access to a new headbutt.
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    #1 there is no hold back immediately, i never stop holding back trust me the headbutt is charged at all times in this situation. DB +UB still keeps the headbutt charged, you can actually go from db to uf then release headbutt as you land from Buttsmash meaning that it HAD to share the charge... here is another way i know Hondas headbutt has strange priorities in this situation. Honda does a super motion FBF and charges his super ... correct.... ? then Honda can jump backwards as long as he is holding up back while doing this this will keep his Super charged. then when he lands you can start holding forward again. and release super without doing the motion again.
    aka Nothingness from xband
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    SUMO
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,131
    I would like advice against defensive Balrogs, the ones that do repeated standing jabs just outside of Honda's jump range.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    I would like advice against defensive Balrogs, the ones that do repeated standing jabs just outside of Honda's jump range.

    have you tried using your normals? like towards and roundhouse? sounds like that might beat s.jab pretty clean.

    I'm not a honda player though. maybe using mp HHS to move forward?

    doing nothing but keeping a charge is effective if you have life advantage.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,131
    Towards + roundhouse does beat standing jabs, but you have to get on range first, which is not an easy task against Balrog. HHS is what I do, but it's risky cause you can eat a low rush.

    And yeah I turtle like hell when I have life advantage against those Rogs, but the thing is how to get that life advantage first.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    i might walk forward and then block. just to see what he does. figure out how he's going to react to you being in certain ranges with no charge. then after you figure out what his reaction is, bait it and punish.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Bulldog up to standing roundhouse range, blocking dash punches on reaction or prediction, throwing out standing or crouching jab from time to time both to beat out dash punches and to hide the startup of an occasional strong hands. Don't do the hands too close to Boxer because they can actually lose to his jabs, and don't leave them out very long because you can get punished by low dash punch, use them mostly as a quick dash. But don't do the slaps too much, they're not as safe as just trying to walk up.

    At some point before you actually get into standing roundhouse range it becomes impossible to block a dash punch on reaction, so start throwing out crouching jab more and more frequently because it really contains Boxer well (but obviously don't get too predictable with it). If he tries to do a crouching attack to beat your crouching strong, that's fine, it means you've broken his standing jab defense and can go into other stuff.
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  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,131
    but make sure you also throw out standing or crouching jab from time to time both because they beat out dash punches and in order to hide an occasional strong hands.

    Oh, this is a nice bit of info, many thanks.

    EDIT: and that new paragraph is even better. Great stuff, man.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    kk, so I'm playing this honda player online. him honda, me blanka.

    I bait a mistake and land j.short

    now I crossup j.short repeatedly I mix it up with j.short s.strong.

    the best honda players will block and then go for a reversal negative edge oochio

    players who can't negative edge oochio will probably fierce for the grab, since s.HP anti airs.

    but this guy keeps doing MP HHS.

    So does MP grab? I assume so, and if it does, why is he mashing so hard?

    is that autofire or what? Cause I've never seen people do that before. Can I call him out? I can't think of any reason to HHS after s.strong or j.short, since if i tick I win, and if I jump I win. the only thing that works is if I try to grab from too close, and he grabs with MP for reversal. Does autofire even guarantee reversal grab? Cause he reversal grabbed all my shit as boxer too.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Well first, off, why are you trying to tick Honda? Dude always wins when getting ticked unless it's by a further-out Gief or Honda. Blanka has big throw range, but Honda's normal throw and ochio ranges are both bigger, and he's certain to get reversal ochio if he does it right.

    Strong punch does throw and has big range, but there's no reason to use it in particular when Honda's fierce and roundhouse throws are so good. And no, autofiring strong punch doesn't work for normal throwing, if I recall correctly you can only get an input for a normal throw once every so many frames. My guess as to what's going in is that he's trying to drum punches for a stored ochio, basically an option select, either he gets ochio if you're throwable or slaps if you're not. That's reasonable in some situations, but not really when Blanka is up in your grill ready to jump over you for another crossup.

    So, I don't know why the Honda player keeps doing that.
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  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    like i said i just mix up between j.short and j.short s.strong.

    i believe it was you who oochioed me out of the grab setup, and since then, I've never gone for a grab on honda.

    I guess that makes sense. it's too bad that MP HHS loses to xup short strong strong low fierce dizzy.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    I think I know who your talking about and he was prob. trying to reversal throw you with MP throw because he has trouble doing Ochio's (he's an HF player learning ST, if it was who I think it was).


    But ya, stored Ochio pretty much throws Blanka's bread and butter tick game out the window.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,131
    It was me, and it was because with that lag I couldn't get Ochios at all and just mashed to get to Rog quickly.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    It was me, and it was because with that lag I couldn't get Ochios at all and just mashed to get to Rog quickly.


    wasn't who I was thinking of then, LOL. Sorry.

    I do hate when you get online lag and lag spikes that make HHS come out when you don't want it to.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    It was me, and it was because with that lag I couldn't get Ochios at all and just mashed to get to Rog quickly.

    oochio wuoldn't have saved you

    ggs, that rog slaughtered me.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    of the people that post here how many are going to EVO?
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • JudeJude M.O.D.O.K. AVENGERS Joined: Posts: 348
    I'm going.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I'm not, unfortunately.

    So I've noticed that if you pick O Honda and do something like air attack, start hitting fierce while still in the air, and then crouching fierce on landing, it's really easy to cancel into fierce slaps, like sometimes I don't even need to press fierce after the crouching fierce to get it. Anyone know why this is? Doing fierce slaps with nothing else going on is really hard for me, but this way it's so easy that I get it accidentally sometimes.
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    I'm also going (first-timer here!)

    Accidental fierce slaps? This intrigues me. Of course crouching fierce is really long so all that air time + crouching fierce time does leave you plenty of time to mash that button. Too bad crouching fierce is such a blah move but still, it sounds like doing the fierce slaps reliably could be useful, I'll try it out.

    Edit: Oh wait, is this O. Honda only? :-/ Yeah, his crouch fierce makes more sense than N. Honda's.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Yeah I've only noticed it with O Honda, and it doesn't even take that many hits of fierce, like 4-5 over the whole process. And it's actually really useful. O Honda's crouching fierce is a great move, but it's punishable on block, so you always want to cancel into it something just in case. In the past I've usually canceled it into buttslam, jab headbutt, or nothing, but canceling it into fierce slaps instead, which keeps you right on the opponent and does a bit of extra chip, is a much better option.
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    yes it works with either version, its kind of like when you start off a round mashing fierceHH, it pretty much builds up the button pushes or something. I'm not sure of the mechanics behind it, it also works if you jump in with fierce punch then go into fierce HH slap for some reason it blurts right out. you can cancel the crouching fierce into a headbutt w/ o. honda( difficult to time though). i was upset that they changed that move to standing fierce instead.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • JudeJude M.O.D.O.K. AVENGERS Joined: Posts: 348
    Is there a prefered jumping attack to use when trying to trade with Dhalsim's FK or other anti-airs?

    And what about stuffing his crouching LP or MP, is it worth throwing stuff out to discourage him from using them or should you find another way around?
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Is there a prefered jumping attack to use when trying to trade with Dhalsim's FK or other anti-airs?

    And what about stuffing his crouching LP or MP, is it worth throwing stuff out to discourage him from using them or should you find another way around?
    Jumping down+Forward has worked pretty good for me. *shrugs*
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    You just have to know where your jumping attacks' hitboxes are, how far away from Sim you are, and what you think Sim is going to antiair with. It's hard to tell you which attacks to use because it's very situation-specific, but you're gonna be using any of fierce, roundhouse, forward, and down+forward. Down+forward is for when you think Sim is going to try to slide under whatever other attack you're using, the others are for actual antiairs. And don't always jump toward Sim when you're doing it, neutral jumping is just as important.
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  • JudeJude M.O.D.O.K. AVENGERS Joined: Posts: 348
    Thanks, I've got shirts in my pool and I haven't had all that much experience against good Dhalsim players. Hopefully it will help me out a little bit.

    I can't wait for the hitbox mode on HD remix.
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    So it was a bit sad to see even Kusumondo get totally destroyed against the shotos in Evo finals. It kind of sends the message that any Honda against truly solid shotos is doomed. That fireball-sweep setup is really hard to crack, and jumping neutral FPs are still pretty risky. I know Kusumondo probably whiffed a lot of buttslams through fireballs in these finals but even then he could very well have been counter-sweeped for his trouble...
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    ^^^^ Dude he played against one of the best shoto's in the world (Valle). If you're playing a character mismatch, like Kusumondo was, he should lose that bad to a shoto as strong as Valle's. The % are not in Kusumondos favor.

    Any way you cut it, other than Valle making a series of mistakes. The best Honda in the world should not beat one of the best shotos in the world with any constitancy over the long run.

    DOn't get me wrong, I would have loved to see a Honda win Evo. But, the shotos here in the States are pretty beefy. As I said, the % are not in Honda's favor.
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Kusumondo was playing in my hotel room after the tourney was over. He was talking through an interpreter ( rob)and he stated that he could notice the 1 frame of LAG input that we all had to play on ( mostly through converters being used). It effected his ability to jump straight up over FBs. The players in Japan have such incredible timing (experience) that 1 frame to them is like 4 frames for the average player. The longer you play the game the more you notice lag. He is in his late 30s, i couldn't imagine how much experience he has as a top player. He is the top Honda player in the world HANDS DOWN! If you watch his videos he clears FBs with regularity. He wasn't able to do it on a consistent basis vs Choi or Valle. There must be something to it. But he also was put up against 2 of the 3 shotos in the final 8...YUCK! Sirlin vs Kusumondo would have been a better match up. And like Fatboy stated its just an uphill battle for any Honda player. He did run into 2 players that were Smoking hot in there game play. Valle was on his game and Choi was playing Possessed.
    We played Quite a few matches vs Kusumondo and he was losing a little in the beginning but after he caught on he was beating everyone. They only matches he didn't fair as well in were the Mirror matches, but he still won the majority of those. I was only able to beat him 3 out of about 14. our last three matches went 2-1, 2-1, 2-0? very close ones too. but he still got the best of me everytime. He is very patient and adapts very quickly. Graham was beating him in the beginning as well but Kusumondo broke it down towards the end. they were almost even. Axel did well with Guile until the end. Trevor not as good but he got there late. and Spence not so much with SIM.
    aka Nothingness from xband
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    SUMO
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Kusumondo was playing in my hotel room after the tourney was over. He was talking through an interpreter ( rob)and he stated that he could notice the 1 frame of LAG input that we all had to play on ( mostly through converters being used).

    I think that's what they call a sore loser. No one could possibly notice a 1/60th of a second delay.
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    yes they can! Trust me! most average players can notice 4 frames most top level players can notice 1-2 frames.
    aka Nothingness from xband
    t+ T+ -r+ m+ s+ v+ M+ o+
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6aUfa2_8 (me playing ST and losing
    SUMO
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    ^^^^^ Yeah there ma be some truth to that. Shirts (I think) and I were talking about how many times we tried to drill with Sim only to have the Air attack come out. If you played something one way for years (ARC version) , a little change can have an huge effect. I think here in the USA we are a little more adaptable b/c we have been forced to play on tons of different versions of the same game.

    However, I am not sure how far one person can really take that POV. You have to give some credit to Valle and Choi.. They have always been the top shoto players here in the USA. That does count for something (a huge something IMHO). And they had to play with the same lag.

    Granted Honda has to play much more precisely. But the 1-frame lag does not only go one way.
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  • MixahMixah Joined: Posts: 8,130
    yes they can! Trust me! most average players can notice 4 frames most top level players can notice 1-2 frames.

    I definitely agree with this. There was the OBVIOUS difference in CCC2 ST with the 4-frame lag compared to the arcade / PSX versions, as per the NKI testing. As far as REACTING on that, it's pretty damn impressive, but very noticeable within Kusmondo's fight scenes.

    Out of curiosity, is there any data on hitboxes for honda? I'm having a hell of a fucking time fighitng Honda with Dhalsim and Bison. Blanka's getting easier for me... but those two fights are just plain wrong for me.

    And another question about Honda... I was playing somebody on GGPO last week who was using honda and he did a meaty c.mp and immediately orocho threw me. How is this done?
    Beat... That's all.
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