Cammy(need help)

GefenGefen Joined: Posts: 1,381
hi
I try to excute the hooligan throw (hcf,u/f+P, K) but never have made it. so far I always have got the hooligan cancel (which is the notation) any help with it? (i tried it from any point on the screen =\)
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  • Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
    hi
    I try to excute the hooligan throw (hcf,u/f+P, K) but never have made it. so far I always have got the hooligan cancel (which is the notation) any help with it? (i tried it from any point on the screen =\)

    Try doing a full 360 motion and then press the punch button, like Zangief's SPD, i find it comes out much more consistently like that. But you have to be able to do the 360 motion both clockwise and counterclockwise obviously. Clockwise 360 when you're on the right side of your opponent, counterclockwise when you're on the left side of your opponent. Pay close attention to the timing of your button press, try to make note of when you press the button in terms of where the joystick is.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Learning how to Hooligan from nowhere is level 3 Hooligan skills, and sadly I consider a pretty advanced thing to learn. ^_^ Start by taking it one level at a time.

    Level 1: Learning to Buffer into Hooligan - A good tactic, learn how to do Crouching Forward into Hooligan. Most players get eaten up by this at intermediate levels. But it gets you to learn how to make sure you are holding U/F when you tap Punch for the Hooligan Roll. Next level is to get good at Standing Fierce into Hooligan, a really good tactic.

    Level 2: Using normals to anchor yourself. Whiff standing Strongs, for example, and then do Hooligans right afterwards. This allows you to reach U/F while Strong is retractng, and then hit Punch, allowing you to Hooligan easier without Jumping. This is also good as a "freeze" to make players block at the sight of you attacking (but whiffing), and then a Hooligan comes from nowhere. You can also do this after safe blocked Cannon Drills, same concept. You can end at U/F and tap Punch at the end of recovery to increase the chances of Hooligan Rolls without jumping. You can also do this after landing Jump attacks, like Jump Roundhouse into Hooligan, which works well on characters with Charge Anti-Airs, like Guile and Chun Li.

    Level 3: Just doing a Hooligan from nowhere. This is by far the best skill to have, as being able to Hooligan at any given time is a huge advantage for her. But the accidental jump is common, as is the accidental Spin Knuckle. This is just nothing more than practice. But if you get good at Levels 1 and 2, Level 3 isn't far off.

    Last piece of advice: don't abuse this move. The last thing you want to do is do it so much that the opponent gets used to seeing it and is able to build up some natural reactions to it. Hooligan cannot be stopped by human opponents on reaction. If they aren't expecting it, they WILL be grabbed by it (though many Guiles CAN react to it in time, 'cause the Razor Kick is easy and fast). So the last thing you ever want your opponent to do is to expect the Hooligan Roll. Learn her fundamentals so you can use the Hooligan Roll sparingly, to ensure it lands more often.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • EmericaRREmericaRR Bite It You Scum Joined: Posts: 139
    Im new to this game so forgive my scrubiness but what exactly makes Cammy rank so low on the tier list? It's not going to stop me from playing the character cause I just started learning this game and Cammy seems to be the character I feel the most comfortable with I just want to know her weaknesses aswell as her strengths.
  • JorantJorant Joined: Posts: 222
    Im new to this game so forgive my scrubiness but what exactly makes Cammy rank so low on the tier list? It's not going to stop me from playing the character cause I just started learning this game and Cammy seems to be the character I feel the most comfortable with I just want to know her weaknesses aswell as her strengths.

    I always wondered this too, as a good Cammy kicks my ass more than any other character.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Honestly? No good quick attack that does damage if blocked. Shitty Special Moves, as it were. Honda can Hand Slap you all day, Fei Long can Rekka-Ken you, Balrog can rush you for free, all fireball characters can chip you from a screen away, and Zangief and T.Hawk have SPDs. Everything Cammy has is sub par.

    Cannon Drills are great, but need to be aimed properly. A badly aimed Cannon Drill can be very painful. Plus, it's not even that fast. It has great priority and is really buff, but why does she need such careful planning with it when Balrog rushes at you for free at any given distance?

    Hooligan Roll is a great move for grabbing unsuspecting players. But it's not instant like an SPD. So it gives characters like Honda or Guile a way to react. It's hard to react, but if you are looking for the Hooligan, you can always stop it when you see it. If you are looking for the SPD, you can't stop it if they land it. You can try to put yourself in a situation where you can't be SPDed, but that's where their mind games start. With Cammy, you can just be aware of the Hooligan, play your normal game, and stop it when you see it (which is why I always preech to NEVER abuse the Hooligan Roll, 'cause if your opponents gets used to it, you lose).

    Let's not talk about the Spin Knuckle.

    The Cannon Spike is arguably the thing that makes her most broken, and in fact, I use it in my offense a lot. Doing Meaty Cannon Spikes against characters like Chun Li and Guile, who can only beat it with their own Razor Kicks, is a good tactic to do unpunishable chip damage (unless Chun has a meter). Against Grapplers, Cannon Spikes work like magic. So it's her best chip move, but you still have to get really close to them to use it, and getting in close is one of her biggest problems, particularly against Fireball characters.

    So, in the end, how do you stop a turtling Honda? You can't. You have no Rekka Kens to do chip damage, no Fireballs to prompt them to attack, and not enough high priority normal moves. If her Standing Fierce could eat a Honda Low Jab, maybe we can get somewhere. Also, if they gave her the dive kick to allow her more mobility when it comes to getting around fireballs, that'd help too (getting past Low Tiger Shots from O.Sagat is so difficult because of her long and floaty jump). She just doesn't quite have that extra MMPH that other characters have to help them.

    Granted, I think she's horribly underrated, and is muchbetter than people give her credit. It always surprises me that NO Japanese player ever bothered to get good with her, as I think she's actually a decent character if you get enough practice. That said, the same amount of practice will make you top tier with a character like Claw. ^_^

    Oh, and lastly, she's cross-up fodder. No other character has as hard of a time blocking cross-ups correctly.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • stream3stream3 Joined: Posts: 234
    there was a cammy in the first SBO who wasn't bad.
  • GefenGefen Joined: Posts: 1,381
    its seems you haven't ynderstand my problem (althought those tips were great)...
    i can do the motion but i just keep seeing cammy jump, rolling on air, AND NEVER GRAB! no matter what i do! it tried pressing K every single place...
    that is my real problem. bringing uot the grab. not the roll... =\
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Oh, sorry. ^_^ Go into a huge post without answering your question.

    Um, I'm not sure what to tell you, the only advice I can give is that maybe you're pushing Kick too early. If you push it early, she'll whiff the throw and just land on her feet. You have to wait until you're right next to the enemy (or above) to throw them. Also, if I'm not mistaken, make sure you are not still holding Up or Down on the joystick (I think that might make it so that the throw doesn't come out, but I usually hold back when I'm trying to throw, so I'm not 100% positive right now).

    Really, honestly, that's the only advice i can give. Otherwise, I'd have no idea why it isn't connecting.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • jactiafjactiaf Down, but Never out Joined: Posts: 31
    Can Mr. James Chen or any one else post some wisdom on how cammy can handle boxer, honda, blanka, and Guile? I'm really struggling going against these character and any input would be super helpful, thanks!
    -- He wears you down, you get bored, frustrated, do something stupid, and he's got ya

    -- It's not that I have no honor, I do/ it's just I play with No Restraints with the No Honor Crew
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Can Mr. James Chen or any one else post some wisdom on how cammy can handle boxer, honda, blanka, and Guile? I'm really struggling going against these character and any input would be super helpful, thanks!

    Wow, that'll take me a month to write up everything against these characters. So best I can do is sum up and only answer some specific questions if you got them.

    Vs. Honda: You don't do anyhting. You lose. In all seriousness (actually, I pretty much WAS serious), the best way to defeat Honda is to BORE HIM TO DEATH. Stay far far away, across the screen, and Jumpstraight up and down with Strong on your way down. Pray the Honda gets bored, tries to hit you, and you take a lead in energy. Then turtle like you've never turtled before. Maybe you can win that way.

    Vs. Boxer: Be very careful. I get mopped up Vs. AfroLegends, this fight isn't easy. But as scary as this is to say, Cannon Drill is your friend. LEARN the Cannon Drill distances, and learn to poke at Balrog with all three at the right distance. Problem is, if you are off by any small amount, Balrog can punish you for free. Also, once he gets his super, thewhole thing changes. No more Cannon Drills. Just start playing as careful as you can. This fight is VERY hard.

    Vs. Blanka: This is a fight where you just have to stay sharp. If Blanka isn't knowledgeable about the fight, you can expect lots of Fierce Blanka Balls. You can counter those with a Roundhouse Cannon Drill. If they are smart and don't do those, the fight gets tougher. Look for Blanka to not be in charged situations, and go for jump-ins with Strong. Blanka can easily react with a straight-up Jump Fierce, so try to sneak them in. Crouch Strong is a good poke. Otherwise, use your basic Cammy tricks in this fight.

    Vs. Guile: Crouch Strong beats his Low Forward. That is a key to this fight. But it only wins if you are outside Guile's range. So learn that distance. From there, you can react to Sonic Boom and jump over with Strong (will beat all of Guile's normal anti-airs). If you hit him, get ready to bethrown. So try a Cannon Spike when you land. If he blocks it, he can't punish you. If he starts to get cute and doesn't throw Booms, you'll have to learn how to move in from that magic distance outside his Crouch Forward with Low Forward pokes and Cannon Drills. Hooligan Roll is bad against Guile, it's very easy to react with a Razor Kick and beat it. So only use it VERY sparingly, after lulling Guile to sleep by not using it. Only abuse the Hooligan Roll in situations where Guile isn't charged.

    Okay, SUPER basic strats there. TOO much to say. So if you have any specific sitautions, lay them on me and I'll do what I can.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
    Just a quick Cammy question. For ST Cammy, only her jab spinning backfist goes through fireballs right?
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Yes, only Jab Spinning Knuckle, 'cause obviously having Fierce go through it like it did in Super would make Cammy waaaaay too good. :rolleyes:

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    A-cho vid: Dictator (Yuu Vega) vs. Oota (Cammy)

    See it while it's still available:

    http://www.a-cho.com/meta/acho_sp2x_20060924a.asx
    (copy link into player of choice)
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

    www.youtube.com/Guoguodi
    GGPO Handle: Gizzle
  • MiloDCMiloDC You betcha! Joined: Posts: 473
    Cammy tips.

    First, let me say this:

    Cammy is a finesse character who has to be played almost entirely to psychological advantage at the higher levels of play. Unlike nearly all the other characters, who build their games around methodical pressure or turtling or both, Cammy's arsenal against a good player fundamentally comes down to trickery and surprise. In a game like Super Turbo, where proper positioning and knowing the complex system of trump maneuvers is key, that makes her game interestingly unique and something of an aberration, if nothing else. In the end, no matter how good you are with her, she is only as effective as the extent to which you can predict what the other guy is going to do because, unlike most other characters, she cannot consistently rely on specific attacks to bring about a favorable situation. She is always on edge, vulnerable to a turning of the tide at any point in the game (although, like most anyone, she can relax a little if she has her opponent cornered); she has nothing like a lop-sided long-range projectile game, she has nothing like a jumping short kick of the gods, she has no fireball trap, she has no constantly looming dash attack threat, no walking super, no slide to go underneath fireballs, no hard-to-reverse tick-throw traps, no cross-up splash -> standing short -> unblockable grab, nothing like any of those dominant characteristics that other characters developed over several years of fine tuning.

    I don't quite agree with Chen about Cammy's spinning backfist, as I'm sure he knows. That move is underrated, in my view, and a mainstay of my arsenal. Even though only the jab version goes through projectiles (unless you're playing Old Cammy, of course, in which case they all do), it is still a very good and safe means of messing up the other guy's positioning from long range, and better yet, it is an excellent meaty attack, thanks to its great scope of contact (barely touch the opponent with it, and it will connect), the fact that it has essentially no recovery time, and the fact that the strong and fierce versions hit twice (very important for closing wide gaps between the characters).

    Now, regarding the specific foes mentioned:
    Vs. Honda: You don't do anyhting. You lose. In all seriousness (actually, I pretty much WAS serious), the best way to defeat Honda is to BORE HIM TO DEATH. Stay far far away, across the screen, and Jumpstraight up and down with Strong on your way down. Pray the Honda gets bored, tries to hit you, and you take a lead in energy. Then turtle like you've never turtled before. Maybe you can win that way.

    *Nod* Assuming you are fighting a turtle Honda, and assuming Honda is ahead in the round, Cammy has her work cut out for her, for all the reasons that Chen mentioned earlier, and more (primarily, no way to safely deliver block damage to a standing opponent, no quick approach without fear of reprisal, and a slow jump).

    Up + strong, as Chen mentions, is a must; also, don't forget the standing jabs, another way to keep Honda honest about the headbutts. Apart from that, you're screwed -- Honda simply owns the match.
    Vs. Boxer: Be very careful. I get mopped up Vs. AfroLegends, this fight isn't easy. But as scary as this is to say, Cannon Drill is your friend. LEARN the Cannon Drill distances, and learn to poke at Balrog with all three at the right distance. Problem is, if you are off by any small amount, Balrog can punish you for free. Also, once he gets his super, thewhole thing changes. No more Cannon Drills. Just start playing as careful as you can. This fight is VERY hard.

    I used to like the drills, but after getting punished by too many buffalo headbutts and turtling low punches, I fell back more and more on standing roundhouse. Balrog is all about those damned no-recovery dashes, and I've found that the standing roundhouse usually works well enough to give him the pause I need to start with the head games (again, the only way for Cammy to win at competitive play levels). Also, I gotta go with the meaty hooligan slide after a knockdown. I don't abuse it, of course (Chen's advice not to overuse the hooligan grab is superb, and it applies to the slide as well), but for that meaty approach, it seems to fare a lot better than the spinning backfist against the blasted wake-up headbutt. Standing jab doesn't work quite as well to stop dashes as it does to stop Honda's headbutts, since Balrog will tag you if he low dashes.
    Vs. Blanka: This is a fight where you just have to stay sharp. If Blanka isn't knowledgeable about the fight, you can expect lots of Fierce Blanka Balls. You can counter those with a Roundhouse Cannon Drill. If they are smart and don't do those, the fight gets tougher. Look for Blanka to not be in charged situations, and go for jump-ins with Strong. Blanka can easily react with a straight-up Jump Fierce, so try to sneak them in. Crouch Strong is a good poke. Otherwise, use your basic Cammy tricks in this fight.

    Even a less well-informed player will stop with the fierce dashes after he gets drilled twice or thrice for free (think T.Hawk dive vs. a blocking Dhalsim). Jumping strong, yes yes yes, just as Chen says (in fact, that move is one of her best against anyone, period). Again, the standing jab comes into play as an anti-dash counter-measure, and you can use the short drill without fear at the proper range (which is regrettably rather precise). Low roundhouse is the only attack I have found that will consistently hit Blanka out of electrocution without trading (provided you don't do it point blank, of course). Blanka is also easy to cross up; I've had great success against better players with cross-up jumping short -> standing short or standing fierce -> cannon spike.
    Vs. Guile: Crouch Strong beats his Low Forward. That is a key to this fight. But it only wins if you are outside Guile's range. So learn that distance. From there, you can react to Sonic Boom and jump over with Strong (will beat all of Guile's normal anti-airs). If you hit him, get ready to bethrown. So try a Cannon Spike when you land. If he blocks it, he can't punish you. If he starts to get cute and doesn't throw Booms, you'll have to learn how to move in from that magic distance outside his Crouch Forward with Low Forward pokes and Cannon Drills. Hooligan Roll is bad against Guile, it's very easy to react with a Razor Kick and beat it. So only use it VERY sparingly, after lulling Guile to sleep by not using it. Only abuse the Hooligan Roll in situations where Guile isn't charged.

    This fight is a ton of fun, man. Guile is probably the single most method-intensive character in the game; he is the turtle to rule all turtles and he is best played in a very deliberate, by-the-numbers, chess-like fashion. This kind of opponent is exactly antithetical to Cammy's style, which is, again, all about tripping up the other guy and *breaking down* his method. Guile certainly has the upper hand, but I have beat enough good Guiles to guarantee you that if you surprise Guile with enough hooligan grabs or connect with enough meaty slides early on, the next several matches vs. that Guile player are yours, because he will be thrown way off. This fight is the finest example of the value of knowing what kind of person plays a particular character. I cannot tell you how many times I have made a Guile nervous with the hooligan grab and jab backfist to the point that I could produce a nervous flask kick tick in him just by doing the jab hooligan slide outside his flash kick range. The catch is that you *must* have your hooligan rolling ability down; canceling it, doing it from a standng position, timing it so that it isn't clear whether you plan to grab or slide, everything. Also, you *must* be able to jab backfist through sonic booms, which is essential for ruining Guile's positioning, on which he greatly depends.

    All that said, to this day, I rue the fact that Cammy's drill cannot shoot underneath the sonic boom (as it does in the Alpha games). This is a tough match but it is a major blast once you get the knack.

    Finally, I don't think that any of these fights are among Cammy's worst (although a good Honda can definitely be frustrating). There are some fights that are just insanely difficult to win, in my experience -- Chun-Li, Dee Jay, and even Ken come to mind. Against those characters, I can offer pretty much no advice, and I'd love to read what Chen thinks of those matches. I'm always ready to learn something new about Super Turbo!
    "MiloDC is quite cute. I'm gay." -- Shari
  • MiloDCMiloDC You betcha! Joined: Posts: 473
    Dictator vs. Cammy video.
    A-cho vid: Dictator (Yuu Vega) vs. Oota (Cammy)

    See it while it's still available:

    http://www.a-cho.com/meta/acho_sp2x_20060924a.asx
    (copy link into player of choice)

    I hate Cammy vs. Dictator, that fight is boring and stupid. That Cammy did no meaty backfists, why not vs. Dictator?

    When the guy went to Dee Jay, it was over. Cammy gets annihilated by that character.
    "MiloDC is quite cute. I'm gay." -- Shari
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Yeah, I've seen Milo's Spin Knuckels. They are really amazing. ^_^

    I actualyl do use it a LOT against Ryus. It's one of the things I keep in mind. If you do it far outside of Ryu's range, it keeps him honest about throwing random fireballs. Of course, abunsing = death, but it's not a bad thing to use oocassionally in that fight.

    I'm am of the mindset that Honda is 100% Cammy's worse match up. I think Cammy beats Ken, if at worst tied. And Dee Jay is one of the most methodical fights you can have, though I do not think (anymore) that she gets rocked by him. Therre is one VERY bad thing and that's the cross-up, but I still think Cammy can fight him a bit. I've got that match broken down, in a way. And Chun Li I think is not hard at all. I've tried your the jump straight-up short and Lightning kick strategy against Cammy, and it doesn't work. Cammy can beat both of those pretty easily, actually.

    So, for Ken: I just out poke him. I just out play him. Ken is way more free form than most characters. Again, trying not to punish him for Jab DPs is key. Just let him whiff, and hit him with a Stand Forward out of the air, or just let him land if you are far away enough. The reason why I think this fight isn't bad for Cammy is because Cammy dies against keep away characters, and Ken has no keep-away game. So it becomes strength vs. strength, and Cammy has as much (maybe even more) strength than Ken. I haven't ever played a Ken yet that has really caused me troubles.

    Chun Li: Don't try to outpoke her, her Crouch Forward is better than yours. Cannon Drills are good agaisnt Chun because Chun can't punish you much outside of a Crouch Forward in return. If she Lightning Kicks, and I swear this to be true, jump at a non obvious time and hit Strong. You are guaranteed to hit her in the head before she can stop. The only way she can Razor Kick you is if she stopped before you jumped and, thus, she out predicted you and deserves to nail you. BUT, if you jump and she tries to stop and Razor Kick on reaction, she will get hit by Strong.

    However, the ensuing situation sucks. After the Strong, you will land. You can Thrust Kick and 99% of Chun Li's next moves will be taken out. And if she blocks, you are safe. HOWEVER, if she Short Razor Kicks, she beats your Thrust Kick. So that's the mind game there. Thrust Kick or not Thrust Kick. Throw or no Throw?

    Straight up Short Chun can't abuse either. If she throws it out from time to time it's not a big deal. For one, you can Thrust Kick it when you see her go up. Don't do it deep, just meet her in the air. Also, it doesn't have enough horizontal range to really do any more zoning to Cammy than her Crouch Forward can already do, since hers is better than Cammy's anyhow. Reall,y it's the same story: Chun Li's inability to really deal with Jumping Strong is the key. And because Cammy is as fast as Chun Li is, she doesn't lose in that area either.

    Finally, Deejay: Don't jump over Max Out. This might sound really awful of a strategy, but this is key. DON'T JUMP OVER MAX OUT. Walk up, and block. Walk up further, and block. Walk up and block. You get closer and closer and, because he has no Crouching Forward, he can't keep you away as well as Guile. Once you get close enough, your Low Forward will stuff the Max Out before it comes out. It may take several blocks, like 6 or 7, but it gets you in.

    The best part of this is that he can only really keep you out by machine gunning those Max Outs. If he puts ANY space in between them, you walk up closer. So if he starts chruning those things out super fast, it becomes REALLY easy to predict a Max Out and Combo him or, at least, keep him from being able to Crouch Roundhouse trade your Jump Strong.

    So once he figures he CAN'T shoot them out fast, you get two situations. 1) He's too far away and doesn't think you can jump over and punish him. So you walk up from a screen away, and Block a Max Out. IMMEDIATELY Roundhouse Cannon Drill. If he throws another pseudo-fast Max Out, oddly, you either win or trade. Now he's worried about that, so he doesn't Max Out there, gives you a better chance to walk forward more.

    The second situation is that once you get close, he'll do the Short Dread Kick over your Crouch Forward, which was intending to stuff the Max Out. Yeah, that's a bummer. Not much I can say except, this is where the mind games begin. Because now Jumping Strong can beat the Short Dread Kick (which sometimes hits him out of the air, preventing any awkward landing mind games). Or you can let him whiff, and now you guys are heads up, and the real poking fun begins. In any case, Short Dread Kick from Dee Jay, to predict your Low Forward, is a huge commitment for him. If he whiffs, he's in an awkward position where he's no longer really charged for anything. So it can be good for him and it can be bad.

    LASTLY, I agree 100% with Milo. Cammy really requires a lot of mental games. You cannot win with Cammy unless you are willing to outthink your opponent. Everything she has was designed for that purpose since nothing she has is safe. Honda can afford to guess a Headbutt because, if blocked, you are fine. Cammy has no such luxury. Even though a Hooligan Roll can catch people unawares a LOT, abuse it and you train your opponent to stop it 100% of the time. Abuse Ryu's Fireball and... your opponent blocks it. There's no punishment to abusing it, really. So Cammy is a lot of work. Too much work to be worth it at times.

    And Milo... if Evo ever has a team tourney, I DEMAND you to come back from retirement and join me and Mike Creque to form the Cammy/Cammy/Cammy team. Our opponents will hate life, because we all play so differently. It must be done!

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • MiloDCMiloDC You betcha! Joined: Posts: 473
    More Cammy talk.
    Yeah, I've seen Milo's Spin Knuckels. They are really amazing. ^_^

    I actualyl do use it a LOT against Ryus. It's one of the things I keep in mind. If you do it far outside of Ryu's range, it keeps him honest about throwing random fireballs. Of course, abunsing = death, but it's not a bad thing to use oocassionally in that fight.

    I'm am of the mindset that Honda is 100% Cammy's worse match up. I think Cammy beats Ken, if at worst tied. And Dee Jay is one of the most methodical fights you can have, though I do not think (anymore) that she gets rocked by him. Therre is one VERY bad thing and that's the cross-up, but I still think Cammy can fight him a bit. I've got that match broken down, in a way. And Chun Li I think is not hard at all. I've tried your the jump straight-up short and Lightning kick strategy against Cammy, and it doesn't work. Cammy can beat both of those pretty easily, actually.

    The jumping short applies only to Anniversary Edition, which is what we were talking about when I mentioned that. I'll respond to the lightning kick observation below.
    So, for Ken: I just out poke him. I just out play him. Ken is way more free form than most characters. Again, trying not to punish him for Jab DPs is key. Just let him whiff, and hit him with a Stand Forward out of the air, or just let him land if you are far away enough. The reason why I think this fight isn't bad for Cammy is because Cammy dies against keep away characters, and Ken has no keep-away game. So it becomes strength vs. strength, and Cammy has as much (maybe even more) strength than Ken. I haven't ever played a Ken yet that has really caused me troubles.

    I'm not sure what you mean by saying that Ken has no keep-away game. Thanks to his slow jab hadouken and the angle of his fierce shoryuken, his keep-away game is better than Ryu's against some characters (e.g. Honda). I find turtle Ryu much less troublesome than turtle Ken; Ryu's jab hadouken is easier to clear or backfist through, and it's safer to jump at him from range since his shoryuken has a steeper angle. Our disagreement here might come down to our opponents' play styles.
    Chun Li: Don't try to outpoke her, her Crouch Forward is better than yours.

    Yeah, few characters can out-poke Chun.
    Cannon Drills are good agaisnt Chun because Chun can't punish you much outside of a Crouch Forward in return.

    I rarely get opportunities to drill, with all the lightning kicks and kikokens. Jump up + short also stops the drill cold.
    If she Lightning Kicks, and I swear this to be true, jump at a non obvious time and hit Strong. You are guaranteed to hit her in the head before she can stop.

    A good Chun will expect you to jump, and will usually stop the lightning kick almost immediately after starting it up, and follow it up with a jump-in counter (step back then jab kikkoken, short SBK, standing forward or roundhouse, or jump up + short, etc.). Just look at the again. NKI used the lightning kick a lot and Creque wisely avoided jumping over it most of the time, because NKI knew what he was doing and almost never left the lightning kick out long enough to leave Chun wide open. Lightning kick is a deal-breaker, man; it totally destroys Cammy's options, even at close range.
    ... Chun Li's inability to really deal with Jumping Strong is the key. And because Cammy is as fast as Chun Li is, she doesn't lose in that area either.

    Reacting to jump-ins (as opposed to anticipating them) has always been a weakness in Chun-Li's game, probably her biggest weakness (with T.Hawk representing the worst example). A good Chun-Li will build his game with that fundamental flaw in mind (I know I do). I can get the occasional hit with jumping strong, but thanks to Cammy's slow jump, I can rarely do it deep enough without Chun getting off a walk-under throw or sac-throw.
    Finally, Deejay: Don't jump over Max Out. This might sound really awful of a strategy, but this is key. DON'T JUMP OVER MAX OUT.

    Honestly, I think I do try to get over it too much. :) That's always been a weakness in my game, i.e. not having the patience to suffer a projectile barrage since it represents a hit once it's blocked a few times (most people who know me well know how much I despise turtles). If I strongly suspect that my opponent is going to throw something, I'd rather just hooligan grab than stand there taking block damage.
    Walk up, and block. Walk up further, and block. Walk up and block. You get closer and closer and, because he has no Crouching Forward, he can't keep you away as well as Guile. Once you get close enough, your Low Forward will stuff the Max Out before it comes out. It may take several blocks, like 6 or 7, but it gets you in.

    Although it will represent an act of sheer will in my case, I will try that next time. Bulldogging is really not my style of play, but I figure you're right, it's what's needed to get the job done.
    The best part of this is that he can only really keep you out by machine gunning those Max Outs. If he puts ANY space in between them, you walk up closer. So if he starts chruning those things out super fast, it becomes REALLY easy to predict a Max Out and Combo him or, at least, keep him from being able to Crouch Roundhouse trade your Jump Strong.

    So once he figures he CAN'T shoot them out fast, you get two situations. 1) He's too far away and doesn't think you can jump over and punish him. So you walk up from a screen away, and Block a Max Out. IMMEDIATELY Roundhouse Cannon Drill. If he throws another pseudo-fast Max Out, oddly, you either win or trade. Now he's worried about that, so he doesn't Max Out there, gives you a better chance to walk forward more.

    Interesting. I'd lost confidence in the RH drill, I always figured he hit me out of it or block it then punish. I'll see if I can get the proper range down.
    The second situation is that once you get close, he'll do the Short Dread Kick over your Crouch Forward, which was intending to stuff the Max Out. Yeah, that's a bummer. Not much I can say except, this is where the mind games begin. Because now Jumping Strong can beat the Short Dread Kick (which sometimes hits him out of the air, preventing any awkward landing mind games). Or you can let him whiff, and now you guys are heads up, and the real poking fun begins. In any case, Short Dread Kick from Dee Jay, to predict your Low Forward, is a huge commitment for him. If he whiffs, he's in an awkward position where he's no longer really charged for anything. So it can be good for him and it can be bad.

    What about the low strong and fierce, though? They hit all my pokes. In fact, one of those moves stops the drill cold, if I recall. I have fought Dee jays who would sit there and low punch in between max outs, just in case I drilled. (I try to limit myself to drilling only as a combo finisher -- I've found that too many characters can hit her out of it cleanly with a normal attack.)
    ... And Milo... if Evo ever has a team tourney, I DEMAND you to come back from retirement and join me and Mike Creque to form the Cammy/Cammy/Cammy team. Our opponents will hate life, because we all play so differently. It must be done!

    Heh, that would be something, all right, dragging my old ass to a Street Fighter tournament. :)
    "MiloDC is quite cute. I'm gay." -- Shari
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    I'm not sure what you mean by saying that Ken has no keep-away game. Thanks to his slow jab hadouken and the angle of his fierce shoryuken, his keep-away game is better than Ryu's against some characters (e.g. Honda). I find turtle Ryu much less troublesome than turtle Ken; Ryu's jab hadouken is easier to clear or backfist through, and it's safer to jump at him from range since his shoryuken has a steeper angle. Our disagreement here might come down to our opponents' play styles.

    Most Ken's I do play are dar more aggressive and don't turtle much, admittedly. However, I still don't think Ken can turtle Cammy. Ryu's big advantage is taht his Fireball is very fast and large. Ken's is slow and small, so Cammy can much more easily stuff it with a well placed Stand OR Crouch Forward before it can ever come out. Ken can't handle Cammy's ground poke game nearly as well as Ryu can mostly because of the Fireball difference. Sure Ken can start throwing out Jab DP's, but it's not as effective against Cammy as it is against most other, slower characters. Also, Cammy is strong, so the trade-offs for Ken isn't as wroth it against her as it is for other characters.
    I rarely get opportunities to drill, with all the lightning kicks and kikokens. Jump up + short also stops the drill cold.

    I actually don't think it's a good idea for Chun Li to throw many Kikokens. It is the easiest way she opens herself up. If you are Drilling a lot into random Kikokens, maybe you should Jump at her more. It's a tricky balance, and as we have both admitted, Cammy requires you to outthink your opponent more than any other character. So obviously, either path cannot be abused. It's just you have to be able to condition Chun Li.

    And if she Jumps straight up Short to beat the Drill, she can't have done that on reaction. That's just a mistake on Cammy's part, and not one you have to think about often. She had to have jumped before you drilled.
    A good Chun will expect you to jump, and will usually stop the lightning kick almost immediately after starting it up, and follow it up with a jump-in counter (step back then jab kikkoken, short SBK, standing forward or roundhouse, or jump up + short, etc.). Just look at the again. NKI used the lightning kick a lot and Creque wisely avoided jumping over it most of the time, because NKI knew what he was doing and almost never left the lightning kick out long enough to leave Chun wide open. Lightning kick is a deal-breaker, man; it totally destroys Cammy's options, even at close range.

    Okay, well, having her stop doing the Lightning Kick is kinda what you want, right? Yeah, I won't jump over it either if the Chun Li tends not to do it for very long. I thought you originally meant that it was bad because she can use it and Cammy can't do anything about it. Naturaly, if most Chun's expect you to jump and don't use it for long, then yeah, don't jump. ^_^ So let her do the Lightning Kick and move on. If she likes to follow up Lightning Kicks with Kikokens, a Hooligan Roll or a Jump will get her to stop that. Otherwise, the best she can really do is just try to keep you away with more Low Forwards.

    I think the key for me against the Lightning Kick is to know that she can't call upon it at any time she wants. Once she isn't doing it, you gotta break in. If Chun Li could pull out the Lightning Kicks any time she wanted, I can definitely see that taking the match from winnable to impossible. I dunno, I just feel like there are enough holes everywhere that Cammy can fight the fight. She doesn't have the advantage, admittedly (she does against only so few characters), but she can fight it.
    I can get the occasional hit with jumping strong, but thanks to Cammy's slow jump, I can rarely do it deep enough without Chun getting off a walk-under throw or sac-throw.

    Cammy should never, ever be sac-thrown. When I jump in with an early Jump Strong against characters like Guile or Chun Li, I ALWAYS follow-up with a Cannon Spike. It'll stuff sac-throws and there isn't a thing they can do about it (outside of Razor-Kicking you after they eat the Strong). They can't punish you either, so it's completely safe. Walk-under Throws can similarly be stuffed with a good Cannon Spike in the opposite direction, but that requires MUCH more foresight. But it does work.
    What about the low strong and fierce, though? They hit all my pokes. In fact, one of those moves stops the drill cold, if I recall. I have fought Dee jays who would sit there and low punch in between max outs, just in case I drilled. (I try to limit myself to drilling only as a combo finisher -- I've found that too many characters can hit her out of it cleanly with a normal attack.)

    Throwing out a punch between Max Outs is good for Cammy. Anything that puts delays between Max Outs to give Cammy a chance to walk farther forward towards DeeJay unimpeded is a good thing. The issue comes when you get CLOSE to DeeJay, and he starts mashing out those Crouching Punches.

    The thing is, you're much better off against those moves that against Max Outs. They will stuff your moves a lot, but that's why you gotta throw out lots of Stand Jabs (one of my favorite moves now) and Stand Strongs (this one I like, too). They're pace breakers, really, ways to make your Low Forwards a little harder to counter. Obviously, Dee Jay has recovery on whiffed Crouch Punches, however slight they may be. But they are there enough to get a Crouch Forward in between attacks (which opens you up for Short Dread Kicks... wheee!!!!). But is Dee Jay wants to play the poke game, I htink Cammy comes away victorious simply because Dee Jay can't keep her away like a Guile can.

    Having said all of this, I did get absolutely slaughtered by AfroLegend's DeeJay. This was, though, before I specifically went and practiced much of these anti-DeeJay strats. I'll have to play him again one day and see if my chances improve. I will not lie: Dee Jay is probably in the top tier of anti-Cammy characters, I've always thought so (his skinniness while crouching makes Cannon Drills almost ALWAYS punishable, so you'd better make sure you land those hits!). So yeah, while I can give strategies to fight him, if I played AfroLengeds for months and got super anti-DeeJay practice, I think the fight will never get better than 7/3 in favor of Dee Jay.
    Heh, that would be something, all right, dragging my old ass to a Street Fighter tournament. :)

    But you've got to do it. ^_^ We'll be like that Japanese team of 2 O.THawks!!!

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    Which punch should I be using for hooligan off a jump Strong, close fierce? Any other good hooligan landing tricks using a specific button? Like I'm guessing the barely touching jump RK to hooligan was a fierce hooligan, but am not sure. Ditto crouch Forward.
    USF4: Still soul searching. Thus far... Yun, Chun, and Akuma.
    UMvC3 mains: Morrigan Doom Vergil, Magneto Doom Ammy, Morrigan Doom Magneto
    UMvC3 fer funsies: Dante Vergil-or-Dorm Magneto, Wesker Sent Hawkeye, Dante-or-Magneto Doom Vergil, Wolvie Doom-or-Sent Akuma, Nova Doom Ammy, Magneto Doom-or-Sent Dante, Wesker Dorm Magneto, Dante Strange Magneto
    MvC3: Dante Magneto Sentinel
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  • Onslaught2000Onslaught2000 WHEN'S MAHVEL.........2?! Joined: Posts: 3,218 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    What about Cammy's oki game? Vs. characters with AA's and characters without?

    I usually like to use close standing strong (if I'm not expecting an AA reversal) into throw attempt, or into a block string into holigan throw. Either that, or jumping short (cross up) into dizzy combo if the jumping short connects.

    For some reason, I always feel that close standing strong should'nt be so good, but there have been many times when it's stuffed reversals from Honda, Blanka, Claw, Dictator. Which makes me think twice about how beefy it really is. But is there any other good options for Cammy's oki besides the ones I've listed?
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    its seems you haven't ynderstand my problem (althought those tips were great)...
    i can do the motion but i just keep seeing cammy jump, rolling on air, AND NEVER GRAB! no matter what i do! it tried pressing K every single place...
    that is my real problem. bringing uot the grab. not the roll... =\

    i had the same problem in alpha 3. you have to hold forward and back + kick. you actually have alot of room to press K, prolly not as much as vega dive3 tho
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Sorry for the totally basic question, but I've been wondering what the exact motion for the roll is, because I've seen it written multiple ways, and I can't currently test it myself.

    Facing right, is this the minimum you have to do?
    :db: :d: :df: :r: :uf: :p:

    I know a lot of players do an entire half-circle forward (starting from straight back) to up-forward, but that's just to make the move easier to do in practice for some people and not strictly necessary, right?

    Edit: Finally got a hold of Kawaks and yeah, you only have to start from down-back.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Tick-throw Setups

    I know Cammy doesn't have *amazing* tick-throw setups, but they could be a useful part of her mixup, right? My thoughts:

    In ground poke games, against characters who don't have a punish for Cannon Spike, c.short -> Cannon Spike is a safe option. So, after training the opponent to think that you'll simply Cannon Spike after a landed c.short, a walk-up grab could be a decent setup.

    Also, the blocked cross-up string could have its uses, aye?

    j.short (cross-up), c.strong, c.forward is a versatile poke-string on block. After the c.forward, a Hooligan Throw is tough to deal with on reaction without prior anticipation. To further mess with your opponent's head, do a tick-throw next time. It would look something like this:

    j.short(cross-up), c.strong, walk up and throw.

    The opponent would (hopefully) be waiting for the c.forward before thinking to deal with Hooligan, so I believe this would give Cammy the element of surprise.

    I don't have my arcade stick or my console to test this at the moment, but I would appreciate feedback on any of the strategies mentioned above.

    Also, my own question: On which characters is a blocked Cannon Spike safe from? I know all three versions have the same recovery, so that's not a variable.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    In ground poke games, against characters who don't have a punish for Cannon Spike, c.short -> Cannon Spike is a safe option. So, after training the opponent to think that you'll simply Cannon Spike after a landed c.short, a walk-up grab could be a decent setup.
    As far as I know (which is very little), it sounds good. My main question would be, is it really necessary when playing ground pokes? I find that if I'm in range to do a c.short while playing footsies that I basically could have thrown anyway. Is it more useful in other scenarios, and if so, which? I'd personally be too afraid to try c.short as the opponent stands up for fear of accidentally getting the range wrong and getting reversal thrown right as they stand up or losing to some other reversal. I guess it's an option after jumping in, too?

    I've seen the excellent Sawada do (00:09), but it seems that's an entirely different thing, used not as a tick throw setup but just as more of a "get away from me and block or this is going to hurt" type setup.
    j.short (cross-up), c.strong, c.forward is a versatile poke-string on block. After the c.forward, a Hooligan Throw is tough to deal with on reaction without prior anticipation. To further mess with your opponent's head, do a tick-throw next time. It would look something like this:

    j.short(cross-up), c.strong, walk up and throw.
    Yeah, that sounds awesome to me, good stuff. And actually you could also hit-confirm a cross-up j.short, c.strong, c. forward, RH Cannon Drill for 4 hits + 50% damage + good dizzy potential. I know it works against characters like Blanka and Guile, but not sure about Ryu, because I can't seem to test it on him -- I find Ryu virtually impossible to cross-up with Cammy's j.short and still keep a combo going. Is it just me?

    I know Milo said earlier he tends to cross-up with j.short, s.fierce or s.short, Cannon Spike and I'm wondering about the pluses & minuses of doing that one instead. Maybe Milo's is good in that it guarantees chip damage as long as the opponent can't punish a blocked Cannon Spike. I think that list might include some unusual exceptions, like Blanka not being able to Ball you afterwards because he (probably) lost his horizontal charge in the cross-up.
    Also, my own question: On which characters is a blocked Cannon Spike safe from? I know all three versions have the same recovery, so that's not a variable.
    I'm sure good players know this by heart, but sadly, I don't know either, and I'm not in a position to test it, so we'll have to reinvent the wheel for now.

    Safe, as far as I know:
    Guile
    Ken
    Ryu
    T.Hawk
    Zangief

    Potentially unsafe, as far as I know:
    Blanka (if charged, fierce Ball can hit you)
    Dhalsim (standing RH, probably other stuff too)
    Dictator (if charged, RH scissor kicks)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Maybe I'm dragging this thread on, with 3 out of the last 4 posts, but I figured this would be a good place to list what the differences are for Old Cammy, since there's always a lot of confusion over that. The ones I'm aware of are:
    • Old Cammy can't use a super or tech throws (obviously).
    • Old Cammy can't do a Hooligan Roll. --jchensor (Can't believe I forgot this one)
    • Old Cammy's Spin Knuckles all can go through projectiles instead of just the jab one.
    • Old Cammy's Spin Knuckles don't travel as far. The Jab one goes much shorter than its New counterpart, the Strong goes somewhat shorter, and the Fierce goes slightly shorter.
    • Old Cammy can't buffer special moves off a c.strong, c.forward, or s.close forward. Updated, complete list
    • Old Cammy's j.short doesn't cross up. :sad:
    I'm sure there are lots more, so please share if you know of others.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Keep it comin'!

    You're not dragging anything on, this is all truly great information. By the way, thanks for your thorough response to my post, it was reassuring to see that my strategies weren't completely borked.

    Cammy simply isn't a popular choice in the ST world, so there is (expectedly) less action in this sort of thread.

    How long have you been playing Super Turbo, by the way? I am just picking it up myself, so all of your input is appreciated.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Well, I've messed around with the SF2 series on and off since I was a kid playing World Warrior at stores and arcades, but that doesn't really count for anything, since not only was the competition completely terrible, but ST is completely different game. I've only been playing Super Turbo for a very short time, and there's a very good chance you're already better than me, as I'm quite bad. That's not false modesty either. :bgrin: So please hold a healthy skepticism about anything I say.

    Random Cammy odds and ends:

    1.) If my test data isn't messed up (and there's a good chance it is), Cammy has 6 input frames to punish a Blanka Ball with the RH Cannon Drill if she blocks it standing up. If she blocks it crouching, she has less. This is assuming a "normal" Blanka Ball hit and not some unusual situation like him doing it really meaty as you're standing up, resulting in an unusually deep hit and leaving him closer than normal.

    I remember reading about the RH Cannon Drill counter and thought it sounded easy until I actually tried it. Half the time he's bounced off me and is safely landing before I even realize what's happened; another quarter of the time, I'm responding too late with the Drill, which he ends up simply blocking as I sail right into his stomach, resulting in a face munch, haha. I've even resorted at times to just spamming c.jabs, but even those can get me in trouble if he counters with c.RH or something. Hey, I told you I was bad! :looney:

    2.) Am I crazy, or is c.fierce a surprisingly good anti-air against medium-height jumpers like Ryu, Ken, and Guile? It can trade or often wins outright for me. Of course the Thrust Kick can also be used for that purpose, but if you have slow reflexes like me, sometimes it's easier just to bash c.fierce than spend the extra split-second doing the joystick motion. Right now I'm probably using it more often than the Thrust Kick for anti-air.

    The weird thing is, I've almost never seen the c.fierce in videos and I can't recall it being mentioned either. That almost makes me worry that there might be something wrong with it, heh, but so far it seems to be holding up alright for me.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Hmm, haven't been checking the SRK boards in forever now. Guess I can add in what I can with Cammy for the past few questions.

    First of all, I will guarantee that 99% of the time, you will be using the Fierce Hooligan. There is almost never a reason not to if your intention is to grab someone. The Jab one can be used from a screen away to get over Fireballs. But if you are planning on grabbing someone, Fierce Hooligan will be what you use 99% of the time. There is ONE fun trick, and that's meaty Crouch Strong into Strong Holligan. This puts Cammy BEHIND the opponent and she can still grab them. If they attack, they punch the wrong direction. It's a fun "WTF?!?" to do on people, but to be honest: if they didn't react in time to being thrown on that one, most likely they won't react to the Fierce one in time either.

    But again I emphasize: don't rely on this move. The last thing you want to do is train people on how to react to it. Play O.G. Cammy from time to time and see if you can learn to win without it. It'll only make the Hooligan Roll even THAT MUCH TOUGHER to deal with if you can play tough without it. It's a complimentary move. It should not be the basis of your attack. It's to be used when you've gotten them too worried about all the other evil shit Cammy can do.

    Also, for the characters she is safe against after a block DP, it's tough. It's really not particularly cut and dry. There are some real obvious ones: Zangief, T.hawk, Guile... they can't do shit to Cammy once they block a Cannon Spike. But other characters, it is not as clear cut. Take Ryu for instance. Ryu can punish only with his Super Fireball. So if he has it, don't do it. Same for Chun. She can punish you with her Super, though she requires better timing (too early and it Juggles for no damage, too late and you block it).

    Plus, there IS a distance factor. If you do a meaty Cannon Spike too close to the opponent, you can be punished. Like if you walk RIGHT UP to Zangief and do the cannon Spike as he gets up, I beleive he can walk up and sweep you. So if you ever decide to pester Zangief with Meaty Cannon Spikes (which is fun to do... :-p), make sure you keep a small space between the two of you. That guarantees he cannot punish you afterwards.

    And I'll have to chime in on tick games: Cammy's tick games are some of the best in the game. My strategy with Cammy, in general, has shifted. Basically, the entire goal of the round is to figure out a way to knock the opponent over. Once. That's all I need. And once you do, the goal shifts to never letting them ever get up ever again. Ever. If they do, revert to goal #1. But once they are down, her Meaty game is buff. Her Throws are hella good (because her Meaties are really buff), her Cannon Spike is good, Cannon Drill (which takes a minute to learn to use, but a lifetime to master) is good, and Holligan Roll is good. Between all of those, it's actually not hard to keep them on the ground two to three times in a row. And with how much damage she does, that's about 45-70% of their life right there.

    I'll answer more stuff later if anything new crops up.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Raisin:

    Yes, you need some hella good timing to punish Blanka's Fierce Blanka Ball. If you don't do a near Reversal with the Roundhouse Cannon Drill, you can forget about punishing it. So whenever you try it, make sure you tap Roundhouse many times as fast as you can (get out those Track N' Field fingers) to get the most likely chance you'll get it as close to a Reversal as possible.

    And Crouch Fierce IS a good anti-air. There are some matches where I use it intentionally because it's actually better than the Cannon Spike. How can that be? Take Balrog for instance. If Balrog jumps at you, he can hit Fierce/Roundhouse at the height of his jump, almost, and you are forced to block it because it hits so low and his jump is so low. It's not easy to hit with a Cannon Spike. But if you remain Crouching, his punch will miss. So it's easier to stay crouching and Crouch Fierce him (and since his jump is so low, he has very little chance of making it over/past the Fierce). So I use it a lot against Balrog. It works well on other characters as well. You will trade, obviously, from time to time or get beat, which won't happen to the Cannon Spike. But believe me, Raisin... my reaction time is probably worse than yours, so I can understand the temptation to use Crouch Fierce instead. ^_^

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Thanks very much, James, for the awesome info. :tup: The time and effort invested is very much appreciated, and I'll try to take your tips to heart, especially the ones about pressuring downed opponents, since that's a major weakness in my game right now. OT -- Congrats on getting your Wii! The story in your blog is great.

    Anyone got any tips on fighting Dhalsim? Some people seem to have an optimistic view of this matchup ("optimistic" as in "Cammy does not necessarily get rocked"), and I'd be ecstatic if I thought I knew of a way to get a roughly even game against him. I did a bunch of digging but only came up with the account of Gian praising Chen's footsies and spacing and something about Cammy's j.strong beating a lot of Dhalsim's libs (presumably, a reference to her being able to jump in).

    If anyone has any details or just ideas, I'd like to hear them. It doesn't have to be a work of art; even 2 or 3 sentences will be appreciated.
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    Anyone got any tips on fighting Dhalsim?

    has Nakamura (Cammy) vs. KKY (Dhalsim).
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

    www.youtube.com/Guoguodi
    GGPO Handle: Gizzle
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    I firmly believe Cammy wins the fight against Dhalsim. Not by a whole lot (I used to think she dominated it, but, like most matches, if Dhalsim is smart, he can hold his own against Cammy). Cammy has a LOT of Tools ready to fight Dhalsim. The number one tool is Jumping Straight up Strong. Jumping straight up over Fireballs becomes a non-issue for Cammy because of this move. It'll beat/trade with anything Dhalsim does. Dhalsim can try to hit you before you do it, but you just have to be wary of those if you see Dhalsim coming up close for a Stand Forward.

    Also, jumping AT Dhalsim becomes easier thanks to Strong. He cannot slide, Crouch Fierce, Stand Forward, etc. you because of that move like he can against so many other characters.

    Oh, and if Dhalsim doesn't block Low on a wake-up, Crouch Strong hit him low. ^_^ Link into Stand Fierce into Roundhouse Cannon Drill = Touch of Death. 90% of the time he's dizzy after that, and anything, afterwards, will kill him. But if Dhalsim learns to block low a lot, start mixing it up. But until he does, there is almost never any reason to not go for the Meaty Low Strong.

    Roundhouse Cannon Drill from 90% screen away can get under a lot of kick, and trade with Fierces and such, putting you at the advantage (you land on your feet, he doesn't). If he throws lots of Yoga Fires, though, this isn't a good tactic. Use this when he gets tentative throwing fireballs. 'Cause when he throws one, and you are 80% screen away or so, jumping over it with Strong is really good. So if he starts throwing less Fireballs, it opens up the Cannon Drill.

    And lastly, the biggest advantage she has: Capcom knew she sucked, so they made her way too buff. ^_^ The damage difference between Cammy and Dhalsim is ridiculous.

    For the record, Gian DID beat my Cammy. I actually beat his Ryu first, then he switched to Dhalsim and I believed I had that match in the bag. But he surprised me with a lot of things I didn't know about before, so he actually beat me with his Dhalsim. I was sad, but am glad enough to hear him praise my Cammy. ^_^

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    BoggleMinds: Good stuff.

    That last round vs. KKY's Dhalsim in that clip is a perfect example of "Knock them down, never let them get up again." She was behind the whole Round and hit him with one Cannon Spike. And then, four knock-downs later, he was dead.

    The 2nd Round vs. Dhalsim, I'm not sure what happened, but he shut down and decided to walk into 90% of his attacks. Gotta risk a Cannon Drill or Cannon Spike or a Jump Strong. Cammy fights Dhalsim by instilling fear into him. If he's not scared, you are not doing your job. I was also curious to see him only use Jump Roundhouse when he jumped over. I can understand using it (Dhalsim's Back + Down + Roundhouse beats Jumping Strong, at far distances), but until Sim proves he knows that, I would stick to Strong, I guess.

    I wasn't a fan of the Cammy style vs. Ryu (she had like 50 opportunities to kill Ryu on the last round that she didn't take advantage of...), but he had some really neat tricks that I'm gonna have to bite now. lol Meaty Jump Jab/Short into regular throw is tight. Hella ghetto, but when mixed with Jump Jab/Short into Stand Fierce into Hooligan, that's a guessing games to handle since it all happens so fast.

    Also, that guy's ability to Hooligan from the middle of nowhere is awesome. I even admit I have trouble with that and I don't rely on it much 'cause I have such a hard time with it. I really should learn it.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ton of good Dhalsim stuff here to chew on, thanks! I better get practicing with all of those tricks.

    What looks especially weird to me in that video is Cammy using her s.far fierce to counter Dhalsim's limbs; I'd never seen that before. At 4:01 she beats his s.far RH with it, and it wins again vs. his s.far strong at 5:26. If it's a helpful way to avoid getting zoned, then so much the better.
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    If I am in close and get a cShort cShort cShort to land, can that be comboed into anything? Or am I better off just doing the cStrong stuff? I like to mix it up, but hate having to end the rapid shorts by themselves.

    Also, is the non close stand fierce comboable? I tested and determined it's not, but wanted to verify and make sure I wasnt just screwing it up.

    And lastly.. Mr. Chen, if you wouldn't mind, could you give an example of how your "dont let them get up ever" strategy might look? Obviously there are tons of ways to re-knock someone down, but assuming right away you land a sweep or DP or something, could you just give an example of how the rest of the round could go if they guess wrong on each mixup? I'm intrigued by the idea.. just curious what it might look like when you execute it successfully.

    Thanks!
    USF4: Still soul searching. Thus far... Yun, Chun, and Akuma.
    UMvC3 mains: Morrigan Doom Vergil, Magneto Doom Ammy, Morrigan Doom Magneto
    UMvC3 fer funsies: Dante Vergil-or-Dorm Magneto, Wesker Sent Hawkeye, Dante-or-Magneto Doom Vergil, Wolvie Doom-or-Sent Akuma, Nova Doom Ammy, Magneto Doom-or-Sent Dante, Wesker Dorm Magneto, Dante Strange Magneto
    MvC3: Dante Magneto Sentinel
    MvC2: Spiral Cable Sentinel ST: Chunny Bunny. 3S: Akuma, Ryu, Dudley. Vampire: Fish, BBHood
    UMK3: Kabal, H.Smoke, Jax, almost everyone. Chess: 1. c4
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Crouch Short rapid fire leads to nothing. Absolutely worthless, IMO. meaty Crouch Short should really never be an option. It doesn't get you anywhere.

    Stand Fierce from afar IS Comboable, but only if it hits with the elbow. If she hits when her arm is fully extended, it can no longer be Buffered. If it hits with the Elbow portion, a Roundhouse Cannon Drill is guaranteed to Combo.

    Okay, so let's say you are playing a Ryu... you are poking and what not, walking into hella fireballs, being zoned. And then he tries a Meaty on you and you wake up Cannon Spike him. All right, now what? Walk up to him, do a Meaty Crouch Strong, which he blocks, whiff a Stand Short afterwards and then Punch Throw (I swear Cammy doesn't need to walk at all.... she just goes from whiffed Short into Throw). So next time he gets up, you do Meaty Close-up Stand Strong so that you connect with the end of the punch, then take half a step and Cannon Spike. He tried to throw you 'cause you threw him the last time and he thinks you're going for Throw wins and eats the Cannon Spike. Then you walk up, go back to Meaty Crouch Strong, whiff a Stand Jab which gets him to react (he remembers the whiffed Stand Short), then immediately do Crouch Forward (which hit him 'cause he stood up and now he's hit so he goes all defensive) and buffer that into Hooligan Throw. Then you walk up and get Reversal DP'ed on your next Meaty attempt. So back to square one, but at this point, at least you've just drained 80% of his life. ^_^

    Keep in mind that Reversal DP's will own you up. if your opponent is good at them, when you get hit by it, simply applaud him for his skill in your head and move on. Keep it in mind and play distance wake-up games. Stay out of the DP range and whiff Jabs as he is getting up. Right when he gets up, wait a second then do tip of Crouch Forward into Short Cannon Drill (which won't combo... just a decent poke sequence for Block Damage and it keeps you in offensive stance), or a threatening looking whiffed Stand Strong into an empty Hooligan Throw attempt. Etc. etc.

    Watch that video that was linked up there if you haven't already. The Cammy player does this exactly on the last round. It's a perfect example.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    Perfect! Thats EXACTLY what I was looking for! So then would this statment be correct: the 3 main meaty attacks to go for are standing, crouching, and jumping strong?

    I have to assume jump strong is one of her best attacks on an opponent's wakeup. Seems to beat a LOT of stuff and has such a nice angle. Just want to make sure because you dont mention it in your last few posts. or should I just go for standing and crouching strongs only? I also saw Nakamura use jump straight up short. Is that as quality a tick as Bison's jump straight up short(which seems to all but guarantee a throw if timed right)?

    Thanks again, that was money
    USF4: Still soul searching. Thus far... Yun, Chun, and Akuma.
    UMvC3 mains: Morrigan Doom Vergil, Magneto Doom Ammy, Morrigan Doom Magneto
    UMvC3 fer funsies: Dante Vergil-or-Dorm Magneto, Wesker Sent Hawkeye, Dante-or-Magneto Doom Vergil, Wolvie Doom-or-Sent Akuma, Nova Doom Ammy, Magneto Doom-or-Sent Dante, Wesker Dorm Magneto, Dante Strange Magneto
    MvC3: Dante Magneto Sentinel
    MvC2: Spiral Cable Sentinel ST: Chunny Bunny. 3S: Akuma, Ryu, Dudley. Vampire: Fish, BBHood
    UMK3: Kabal, H.Smoke, Jax, almost everyone. Chess: 1. c4
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    My main Meaty Attacks are Crouching Strong, Standing Close-up Strong, and close Stand Fierce (Meaty Stand Fierce canceled into Hooligan Throw is hella fast, and also links into Crouch Forward, giving Cammy some more options). I've never used Jump attacks as a Meaty attack before. Mike Creque (awesome Cammy player as well) actually uses the cross-up Short, which is REALLY good. I've just never added it to my game. And that Japanese player seems to use Jumping Jab and Short as Meaty Jump attacks, allowing for easier tick Throws afterwards. I can't really comment much on the Jumping Meaties, 'cause I've never used those (the stuff Nakamura was doing was new to me as well), but I'm definitely gonna start trying to use it and see how it pans out. ^_^

    Definitely good to keep a variety going, though. I used to use the same Meaty 100% of the time (Crouch Strong, 'cause Crouch Strong into Crouch Forward into Roundhouse Cannon Drill = dead for most opponents), but once they see it too much, it's too easy for them to remain calm. Gotta keep them guessing.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    Wow. I'm pretty surprised at that. While obviously you are a far superior player to me, I'm actually going to make a recomendation to you to try the jumping stong on the opponent's wakeup. It beats out a LOT of stuff when timed right and flows really naturally to the crouching strong.

    As for the crossup short, I always seem to get thrown when I land, but that's probably poor timing on my part. You want to hit that as late as possible I'm assuming? Seems like jump strong works a lot easier, but of course crossing up is always a plus :)
    USF4: Still soul searching. Thus far... Yun, Chun, and Akuma.
    UMvC3 mains: Morrigan Doom Vergil, Magneto Doom Ammy, Morrigan Doom Magneto
    UMvC3 fer funsies: Dante Vergil-or-Dorm Magneto, Wesker Sent Hawkeye, Dante-or-Magneto Doom Vergil, Wolvie Doom-or-Sent Akuma, Nova Doom Ammy, Magneto Doom-or-Sent Dante, Wesker Dorm Magneto, Dante Strange Magneto
    MvC3: Dante Magneto Sentinel
    MvC2: Spiral Cable Sentinel ST: Chunny Bunny. 3S: Akuma, Ryu, Dudley. Vampire: Fish, BBHood
    UMK3: Kabal, H.Smoke, Jax, almost everyone. Chess: 1. c4
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Yeah, like I said, I used to spam Crouch Strong as a Meaty. It was the only thing I ever did. So I never learned any good Jumping Meaties or Cross-ups with her (much to Mike Creque's dismay. He always yells at me, 'her Cross-up is gooood!!!"). But I'm definitely gonna add it to my game. I used ot only use Jumping Strong on a rising opponent against Sagat. If you distance it and time it properly, jump straight up when Sagat is getting up and hit Strong. You can just cleanly stuff the Tiger Uppercut that way.

    When going for the cross-up, it's really tough to land. Actually, the later you do it, the less likely you'll land it. You have to hit it high up (on characters like Shotos), which makes it real hard to combo upon landing. But yeah, against fat characters like Fei Long, late, early, whatever... it's easy. But on Shotos, you gotta use an earlier timing so you hit them pretty high up.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
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