So, it seems next KOF is going DOA

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Comments

  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,810
    YOu don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Leona's been good in most of games ,Chin is pertty populaur, alot of people were mad he wasn't int he Ash SAGA, adn Goro is also another character people missed while he was gone. Shut up.
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  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227

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  • MageggMagegg Joined: Posts: 3,991
    YOu don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Leona's been good in most of games ,Chin is pertty populaur, alot of people were mad he wasn't int he Ash SAGA, adn Goro is also another character people missed while he was gone. Shut up.
    LOL no.
  • SaikyoStyleSaikyoStyle Not Sure Joined: Posts: 1,064
    Can wait for another fighter everyones going to hate.

    Isn't that every fighter?
    People bitch and bitch about (insert any fighting game here) for one reason or another.....yet can't stop playing or talking about it.

    rabblerabblerabble.jpg
    Move along, Nothing to see here.
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    Magegg wrote: »
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    You are literally whining that Capcom keeps putting SF2 characters in Street Fighter when those are the characters that sell games. They aren't rehashing anything, they are keeping the mandatory mainstay characters in first and adding other shit second. I want nothing more than the US Sports Team to come back, but I also recognize that Japan Team, Iori Team, Kim Team, Fatal Fury Team, Art of Fighting Team, and whatever team they add to get Mai in the game are absolutely the most important characters they NEED to have in the game, and that's 18 characters right god damn there. K` Team is also arguably just as essential, 21 characters, Psycho Soldier is also a pretty staple team, 24 characters, and Ikari Warriors don't seem to be going away any time soon, 27 characters.

    Depending on how long it takes to make the characters in the game (XIII being a character creation cycle that is quite the god damn time sink), it's just not feasible to add all the oddball characters people want that just flat out are not as important to the game as the staple characters are.


    I'm glad they retired Chang and Choi, their charge gamestyle was not that useful in the later games.

    "Chang"

    "Charge gamestyle"

    You don't even know what makes him good do you or why he was high tier in 98? And in regards to Choi for later games, he was top in 02, top in Neowave and is still very viable in 98/um and 02um. In 03, his gameplay was emulated through Malin and she was dominant in 03 but nerfed pretty hard in XI. It's not that his style is not useful. Leona has been high tier in pretty much any game she's been in but XIII. Her normals are relatively unique and her playstyle revolving around controlling up close space from ranges most characters can't contest along with her instant overhead game doesn't really have an equal in KOF.

    Please stop typing ignorant shit. I implore you. I beg of you.

  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,810
    Even after getting nerfed Malin was still mad strong in XI.
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  • MageggMagegg Joined: Posts: 3,991
    edited November 2013
    LOL no, all of them were pretty bad characters recently, that's the reason why they were removed.

    Choi was good in 2002 only by a twist of destiny, otherwise, he had been very faulty.

    And no one complained of Chin not being in KOF 2003-XI, please quit joking XDD
  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,810
    edited November 2013
    Choi was good in most games, at least mid tier and even in a game with geese and Krauser he still gets picked a good bit in 98UM and is still a decent character in 2k2UM. Shut up.

    Probably don't even know what an oogoosho or 777 is.
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  • MageggMagegg Joined: Posts: 3,991
    Yeah, but not everybody is an oogoosho or or an 777.

    For example, Leona has been inaccessible for most of the players, she might be good but not everyone takes time to master her... And those same people prefer to use other character instead for important matches.

    They better put a better balanced character with more appeal for everyone.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    edited November 2013
    Magegg wrote: »
    Yeah, but not everybody is an oogoosho or or an 777.

    For example, Leona has been inaccessible for most of the players, she might be good but not everyone takes time to master her... And those same people prefer to use other character instead for important matches.

    They better put a better balanced character with more appeal for everyone.
    Magegg wrote: »
    YOu don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Leona's been good in most of games ,Chin is pertty populaur, alot of people were mad he wasn't int he Ash SAGA, adn Goro is also another character people missed while he was gone. Shut up.
    LOL no.

    Edit:
    You just said they should retool a character cause you can't play her. There is players out there fine with it since 96 with no complaints besides you.

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  • MageggMagegg Joined: Posts: 3,991
    jedpossum wrote: »
    Edit:
    You just said they should retool a character cause you can't play her. There is players out there fine with it since 96 with no complaints besides you.
    No. Those characters were getting progressively worse and worse, no one was using them. Choi had luck in KOF 2002 but he wouldn't have lived up for KOF 2003. And Leona was severely outdated, that's why they took her out for retooling on KOF XI, and she didn't even got better for XII/XIII.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Magegg wrote: »
    jedpossum wrote: »
    Edit:
    You just said they should retool a character cause you can't play her. There is players out there fine with it since 96 with no complaints besides you.
    No. Those characters were getting progressively worse and worse, no one was using them. Choi had luck in KOF 2002 but he wouldn't have lived up for KOF 2003. And Leona was severely outdated, that's why they took her out for retooling on KOF XI, and she didn't even got better for XII/XIII.
    Magegg wrote: »
    YOu don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Leona's been good in most of games ,Chin is pertty populaur, alot of people were mad he wasn't int he Ash SAGA, adn Goro is also another character people missed while he was gone. Shut up.
    LOL no.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

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  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    Magegg wrote: »
    jedpossum wrote: »
    Edit:
    You just said they should retool a character cause you can't play her. There is players out there fine with it since 96 with no complaints besides you.
    No. Those characters were getting progressively worse and worse, no one was using them. Choi had luck in KOF 2002 but he wouldn't have lived up for KOF 2003. And Leona was severely outdated, that's why they took her out for retooling on KOF XI, and she didn't even got better for XII/XIII.

    Time to double post.
    And Leona was severely outdated, that's why they took her out for retooling on KOF XI, and she didn't even got better for XII/XIII.

    Please define outdated and lay out your criteria for it.

    Then find evidence for me that SNKP "explicitly" decided to take her out because she was "outdated."

    Then substantiate why she "didn't even got better" for XII/XIII. XII is an irrelevant point since the game was poorly received anyways.

    So explain to me why she didn't get better in XIII; and, explain to me what makes her weak comparatively to the cast of XIII. Explain to me what were the major differences between her design in previous games like in 98 or 02 to her design in XIII and the ramifications of those changes.

    I'm really fucking curious what you have to say. That is to say, I don't expect anything meaningful to come out of you.
  • MageggMagegg Joined: Posts: 3,991
    edited November 2013
    Laban wrote: »
    Please define outdated and lay out your criteria for it.
    Charge characters got way when the game became more and more aggressive and the combos longer. When the strikers came out, for example in KOF 2000 with the "active striker" system, an opponent would have even more chances of breaking any charge move . Also, their combos were way shorter and less damaging than the ones from any other kind of characters. Take Leona for example, her b,f moves take ridiculously long to come out, while Choi has too much recovery time. That really makes you want to use another character.

    Malin was a good option to use instead, because she was faster, more aggressive and her moves had better priority, combo potential and less recovery time. And Ash was a better option for a charge character than Leona. Leona was included back in KOF XIII only to appear in the family picture, but she still sucked, I'd rather have Heidern.
    Laban wrote: »
    Or the many 98og and 02og players at low/mid/high levels of play that often use Leona?
    Like I said, I had no problem, even 99 was very decent. But from 2000 onwards, she got worse and worse. 2002 might be a special case because the game system had nothing to do with the three previous games (even it was supposed to be a dream match). But since in KOF 2003 onwards the screen was enlarged, Leona had big problems to space and corner her opponents...

    And you're right about Chang. I'm only saying "Chang without Choi" can't live for much time... That would be like taking out Clark and leaving Ralf in.
    Laban wrote: »
    Either way, you have just pretty much proven yourself to be ignorant of not only the KOF scene, but also about the game itself. Then you proceed to make indefensible claims and try to brush off others' considerations without even lifting a finger to even try to support your claims. I doubt many or any will take you seriously now. Whatever you say now will have no sense of merit. Good going.
    LOL. When people start telling you to "shut the fuck up", it's clear they're going to mock at your opinion anyway. So, I don't care about what you think unless you "prove it". And having a couple Japanese players using decently a character no one uses doesn't change my mind.
    I'm only saying if those characters would have been that good, they would have simply stayed, just like it happens to some Terry or Benimaru or Kim.
    No one started a war when Goro was not on KOF '99-2000 or Leona on KOF 2003, and SNKP didn't have to re-include Chang and Choi con KOF XIII, so I think that's enough evidence of my point.
    It's right there are very characters who can be surprisingly decent or even good when experts use them, but SNK doesn't base only on experts to pick the characters they're going to include in the roster.
    Post edited by Magegg on
  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,810
    Yo Laban get him

    We gotta play 98 again, I need to learn that dumb Lucky MU.
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  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,330
    98 night? I could always use the practice.
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  • SpαrksterSpαrkster G.F.B.T.G. Joined: Posts: 312
    Magegg wrote: »
    Charge characters got way [sic] when the game became more and more aggressive and the combos longer. When the strikers came out, for example in KOF 2000 with the "active striker" system, an opponent would have even more chances of breaking any charge move . Also, their combos were way shorter and less damaging than the ones from any other kind of characters. Take Leona for example, her b,f moves take ridiculously long to come out, while Choi has too much recovery time. That really makes you want to use another character.

    No KOF characters since '96 have ever relied solely on charge motion special moves strictly for their defense. You might as well say Terry and Kim have only gotten weaker as games progressed because their "DP" is generally a Flashkick motion. Instead, both of them swing around on tier lists based on completely different criteria. Likewise, Leona generally can anti-air five other ways or escape pressure with universal Guard Cancels. The reason Leona sucks in XIII has nothing to do with her move motions, but instead it all comes down to her getting hit with a weak neutral game due to worsened normals and poor damage because her combos happen to scale worse than with other characters, but there's still Raiden who uses mostly charge moves and hits like a truck. There are dozens of other factors that come together do determine a character's damage output, and you're only able to see one.

    Charge time is nearly irrelevant during combos if you know how to buffer, especially in 2000 where you can easily set up Seth's striker to land an unblockable launcher that lets you link ANYTHING afterwards. The only thing that matters afterward is how long a character's specials can juggle naturally which is all based on a whim. Outside of 2000 you're looking at completely different factors other than special move input that determine a character's strength. 2001 had random anywhere juggles out the ass, XI was about good launches or tagging into a character that can juggle until stun, and XIII comes down to maximizing damage scaling or bullshitting with meter build or an infinite.
    Magegg wrote: »
    Like I said, I had no problem, even 99 was very decent. But from 2000 onwards, she got worse and worse. 2002 might be a special case because the game system had nothing to do with the three previous games (even it was supposed to be a dream match). But since in KOF 2003 onwards the screen was enlarged, Leona had big problems to space and corner her opponents...

    I'm only saying if those characters would have been that good, they would have simply stayed, just like it happens to some Terry or Benimaru or Kim.
    No one started a war when Goro was not on KOF '99-2000 or Leona on KOF 2003, and SNKP didn't have to re-include Chang and Choi con KOF XIII, so I think that's enough evidence of my point.
    It's right there are very characters who can be surprisingly decent or even good when experts use them, but SNK doesn't base only on experts to pick the characters they're going to include in the roster.

    You make it sound like you actually know the reasoning behind which characters make it into each KOF game, which is pure speculation. By your reasoning, I better get ready for Guile to be dropped from Street Fighter because ever since World Warrior he's progressively weakened. Mai was axed from XII, and to this day scrubs complain that Vanessa or Angel or USA Team, et cetera, et cetera, should be in but they haven't been touched in years. On the other hand, Terry turns out to be complete garbage in some games but guess what? There's a reason he's here every year.
  • MageggMagegg Joined: Posts: 3,991
    Spαrkster wrote: »
    Charge time is nearly irrelevant during combos if you know how to buffer
    You just said. When a character's only able to get really used through a technique only what? 10% of players? are able to perform, it's better to take it out of the game. Ash was way was better than Leona with his LDM.
    Leona b,f charge moves were extremely pathetic in 2003, for example. Her other moves were not that bad but didn't help much.
    And both Kim and charge robert were way much more than a charge character.
    Spαrkster wrote: »
    By your reasoning, I better get ready for Guile to be dropped from Street Fighter because ever since World Warrior he's progressively weakened.
    Guile was a beast in the beginning, so while he got weaker after the II series, it was still very decent.
    Spαrkster wrote: »
    Mai was axed from XII,
    Like someone said above, XII didn't count.
    Spαrkster wrote: »
    and to this day scrubs complain that Vanessa or Angel or USA Team, et cetera, et cetera, should be in but they haven't been touched in years.
    Angel only because of the copyright issues (now solved). Vanessa was in KOF NeoWave, but she's not one of the "essential KOF characters", since she arrived late to the party.
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,330
    Only 10% of players learn how to buffer charge inputs? It's like I'm taking crazy pills.
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  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    I wish Chang was in XIII. He be juggling with his Iron Ball all day and ending HD's with a Belly Flop would of been sight to behold.

    That and I use him in all games he's in any way.

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  • SpαrksterSpαrkster G.F.B.T.G. Joined: Posts: 312
    I fukken laffed.

    I'm done talking to scrubhumans.
  • NickRocksNickRocks Knock Knock Joined: Posts: 22,837
    XIII was beautiful why would you do this T.T
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  • rukawa_kaederukawa_kaede ({「決最終戦奥義」}) Joined: Posts: 3,458
    edited November 2013
    and since when leona is hard to use!?, Magegg you're full of shit.

    lol laban was banned
  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,810
    He's not banned, he just has the jail markers for soem reason.
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    This thread took a turn...

    I think Mageg just needs to chill out out a bit. I did find the charge comment funny. If anything charge characters are easy in 13 (charge time is literally like a second and the system is very lenient) it's just that HD combos are tricky.
    STOMP!
  • MageggMagegg Joined: Posts: 3,991
    Laban wrote: »
    In that case, I'd still emphasize using Xrd's technique of cel shading and frame rate throttling to capture the hand drawn style to emphasize's its own aesthetic style.
    Sadly, that could be very expensive :/
  • Monster637Monster637 Rage Trigger Joined: Posts: 1,212
    want playable botan
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  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    Magegg wrote: »
    Laban wrote: »
    In that case, I'd still emphasize using Xrd's technique of cel shading and frame rate throttling to capture the hand drawn style to emphasize's its own aesthetic style.
    Sadly, that could be very expensive :/

    Could be. If I recall, both the process of making 2D sprites and 3D models could be equally time-consuming and money-pitting. The hard thing about sprites is the dotting, planning out how motions are going to look, and having to redraw stuff when you need to adjust the move. With 3D models, it's "kinda" easy to make the model but requires a lot of time and effort to be put into texturing and finalizing the model. Then there's much more additional work on models that are constantly transforming into other shapes; whereas with sprites, you'd just have to do the dotting as if you're drawing animation and it'll be the same either way.

    So both ways are similarly taxing. The issue is we don't the actual costs of production. I presume though that with KOF and SS characters, it'll be easier to create and finalize models than GG characters since the "form" of the characters are pretty static since everyone is human-like. I think it's affordable even for SNKP, it's just the matter of finding people with the expertise to work with Unreal Engine III and making 3D models.

    I'm doubting SNKP will find the right people or go down the cel-shading/throttling route though. I'll keep my anticipation at lukewarm for new KOF and SS until we get more news. If there is one thing SNKP is very adept at, it's making disappointments.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,004 mod
    edited November 2013
    At this point, should the thread title be changed to something more about discussing the future of KOF?
    Laban wrote: »
    Magegg wrote: »
    Laban wrote: »
    In that case, I'd still emphasize using Xrd's technique of cel shading and frame rate throttling to capture the hand drawn style to emphasize's its own aesthetic style.
    Sadly, that could be very expensive :/

    Could be. If I recall, both the process of making 2D sprites and 3D models could be equally time-consuming and money-pitting. The hard thing about sprites is the dotting, planning out how motions are going to look, and having to redraw stuff when you need to adjust the move. With 3D models, it's "kinda" easy to make the model but requires a lot of time and effort to be put into texturing and finalizing the model. Then there's much more additional work on models that are constantly transforming into other shapes; whereas with sprites, you'd just have to do the dotting as if you're drawing animation and it'll be the same either way.

    So both ways are similarly taxing. The issue is we don't the actual costs of production. I presume though that with KOF and SS characters, it'll be easier to create and finalize models than GG characters since the "form" of the characters are pretty static since everyone is human-like. I think it's affordable even for SNKP, it's just the matter of finding people with the expertise to work with Unreal Engine III and making 3D models.

    I'm doubting SNKP will find the right people or go down the cel-shading/throttling route though. I'll keep my anticipation at lukewarm for new KOF and SS until we get more news. If there is one thing SNKP is very adept at, it's making disappointments.
    I believe that it is easier to iterate with models than sprites. For example, if they wanted to have both classic Terry and MOTW Terry as alternte costumes, all they would need to do would be new models since the skeletal animation data could simply be carried over.
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    d3v wrote: »
    At this point, should the thread title be changed to something more about discussing the future of KOF?

    And Samsho. If we didn't have Samsho in the title, the thread would be shoved into the KOF Subsection by Preppy and this thread will permanently die like all the other ones since no one really goes there.

    Gotta talk Samsho, must talk Samsho.

    Speaking of which, go away SS2 Cham Cham cr.D. The strongest low forward. Also why does she have to go underneath Haohmaru's far B (CVS2 far MP)? Have to play the match up with Genan instead.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,004 mod
    Laban wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    At this point, should the thread title be changed to something more about discussing the future of KOF?

    And Samsho. If we didn't have Samsho in the title, the thread would be shoved into the KOF Subsection by Preppy and this thread will permanently die like all the other ones since no one really goes there.

    Gotta talk Samsho, must talk Samsho.

    Speaking of which, go away SS2 Cham Cham cr.D. The strongest low forward. Also why does she have to go underneath Haohmaru's far B (CVS2 far MP)? Have to play the match up with Genan instead.
    While we never got into it as much as Marvel, SF or Tekken, I do recall that we enjoyed SamSho a bit over here back in the 90's. Enough that I recall that me and my brothers actually added SamSho characters into our teams (Nakoruru for me) when we got into CvS2.
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    d3v wrote: »
    Laban wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    At this point, should the thread title be changed to something more about discussing the future of KOF?

    And Samsho. If we didn't have Samsho in the title, the thread would be shoved into the KOF Subsection by Preppy and this thread will permanently die like all the other ones since no one really goes there.

    Gotta talk Samsho, must talk Samsho.

    Speaking of which, go away SS2 Cham Cham cr.D. The strongest low forward. Also why does she have to go underneath Haohmaru's far B (CVS2 far MP)? Have to play the match up with Genan instead.
    While we never got into it as much as Marvel, SF or Tekken, I do recall that we enjoyed SamSho a bit over here back in the 90's. Enough that I recall that me and my brothers actually added SamSho characters into our teams (Nakoruru for me) when we got into CvS2.

    If you could, your group should dabble in SamSho 2. It's kinda a pick up and play game and the best combos in the game are just Jump-in AB (Heavy Attack) into ground AB. It really helps out footsies since that's the emphasis of the games. Sword strikes are pretty negative on block so you gotta decide at which spaces to commit to making a poke, because if you whiff and punished you take a bit more damage than usual (as I recall) and committing to having your attack blocked too deep in is also susceptible to punishes. Certain characters also have crouch walk back and forward that also affect the way people walk forward and block to approach since back walking is kinda counter intuitive to gaining yardage by walking forward. Although Ukyo is top tier, Cham Cham throws a wrench against him and many other characters like Kyoshiro, Genan, Jubei, Wan-fu, and etc. are still pretty strong. Wan-fu's butt-poke is one of the best footsie tools I have ever seen in my life and watching butt-footsies is magnificent. Only thing I really want is for Haohmaru's far B to not whiff over many characters and pokes (isn't as good as later games or CVS2.)

    If anyone is down to Samsho 2, just hit me up and I can hop on GGPO and play some.
  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,930
    edited November 2013
    I dont even play KOF and this supposed 3D style they are going to do greatly angers me. Those character models look like shit.

    Switching to 3D would be acceptable







    If they didnt make it look so terrible.
    Unchallenged owner of worst user name on SRK
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,330
    I'm indifferent to the models they use as long as the game plays fine. Even though I hated how Maximum Impact played, I always thought it looked good enough that I wasn't offended by the modelling. That's really all I ask for, do something on par with MI that I am not offended with visually.
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  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    As long as we don't get Blue Mary's MI2 Alternate Costume. Terry's Alt was pretty cool actually along with Mai's though. I think Mai's alternate was the best outfit that balanced between being "Mai" and having a semblance to having a Ninja outfit.

    In before the new games are actually a new KOF Kyo RPG and a Samsho RPG.

  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,810
    Mai's alt is better than her actual design IMO.
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  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,330
    Admittedly a lot of costumes in MI were REALLY bad. Ash's alts got super fucked and basically all of the new characters look awful. But that's what happens when you commission Falcoon for designs.
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